Metagame Convergence [OM of the Month (New Bans post #465)]

[Cuddly]

I meant +2, that was a mistake.

Alright, but CB + Thermal Exchange boost (1.5*1.5) is stronger than a +2 boost
+2 252 Atk Kyurem Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Granted Skarmory needs to be healthy and lucky to survive, it can survive 1 hit and Body Press can KO if the Kyurem is low enough, which it likely will if you aren’t investing in bulk.
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 220-260 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not exactly ideal for the Skarmory user, but it can help in a pinch when you make a mistake.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Alright, but CB + Thermal Exchange boost (1.5*1.5) is stronger than a +2 boost
+2 252 Atk Kyurem Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Granted Skarmory needs to be healthy and lucky to survive, it can survive 1 hit and Body Press can KO if the Kyurem is low enough, which it likely will if you aren’t investing in bulk.
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 220-260 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not exactly ideal for the Skarmory user, but it can help in a pinch when you make a mistake.

I would never rely on a 17.6% chance "in a pinch". Trying to argue that this matchup somehow shows that Skarmory is a good check to Kyurem (according to dehzao) is foolish.

 

[dehzao]

I kinda agree with you but these points and sets presented are laughably bad. Unaware cress with haze? 0/252 regice? Sash clear smog counterplay? Belly drum entirely balanced because unaware cress beats certain variants? And you called HO the counter to stall?? And ending it all with “just adapt”??

I've never said Unaware Cress with Haze. I said: Prankster/Haze is one option to counter. Unaware is another. Gale Wings is another, as most BDs are Fighting types. I don't see what is so hard to understand or maybe I did not express myself the right way, although I have read one more time and it seems pretty clear to me, but if more than one person did not understand, that really might have been on me.

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 236 HP / 104 Def / 168 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Rain Dance
- Recover
- Teleport


Cresselia @ Lum Berry
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 156 HP / 84 Def / 156 SpA / 112 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Aura Sphere
- Slack Off

I use them like this. They are both on the same team. Yes, Deoxys doesn't have a single damaging attack and only Pranksters, like Murkrow. On paper, it might seem weird. But this is the team I am having most success ever. Before trying Convergence I already knew I was going to need to Haze fast and have another Pokemon that is Unaware.

About Clear Smog. I also have tried an Unaware Defensive Torkoal, put him after a Belly Drum setted up and cleared the 4x. after receiving a laughable unawared damage. Is that "noobie"? Because if it is, it is working great for me.

And yes, I called HO the counter to stall in some cases. But again, it might be my definition of hyper-offensive. I do confess that even tho a play Showdown for like 4 years, I'm quite unfamiliar with some terms you use, so maybe I really did not express myself very well.

But again, with my set I have never ever taken damage from Belly Drum, so for me it seems a bit absurd people saying it is broken. Honestly, I don't see anything broken as it is, because I never even lost to one to begin with. I designed my team predicting that it would be a problem beforehand, not only Belly Drums but Cotton Guards as well.

About the Regice, he wasn't 0/252... I made a simulation about a previous game I have played. Since it was about Defense, the only stat I wrote were the Defense. I don't saw it beforehand that I had to make it clear just for the sake of the argument.

But anyway, yes, I might have slipped with some terms, but overall that's exactly how I see it. My main thing is that for every 04 things that are banned offensively, only 01 is banned defensively on other OMs, you see what I mean? Convergence has a wide variety of options and they banned Fur Coat Umbreon, which was absolutely great here, but its rare to see in other OMs, they always let hyper-defensive broken things slide.

Let Convergence be more free, this meta is all about freedom. Some people (me and many others) are on Smogon just for the OMs and the creativity. If offensive strategies starts getting out of the map, the only way to play would be walls against walls... Nobody wants to lose. Besides, if those strategies were that broken, they would be on the top, I don't see any Belly Drum on the top, I have played against Raichu, Ink and other Top 5 and all I saw were balanced teams.

But again, I don't use the best of the terms, its just crazy for me to see something as "broken" when it never beaten me.

And to Ink, honestly, I did took your team as an example, but it was never to criticize it. I've played against you, you have a nice team and it was a pleasure, I just used your team as an example, I don't like it but I never said its broken, I just took it as an example of what I am aiming to beat.

 

[dehzao]

There isn’t a format where people don’t complain about regen and it can be cheap sometimes but it is very rarely actually broken. I’ve checked the replays of every person who has complained about regenvest whether on discord or forums and color me surprised when I found out that every single one of them have passive teams.
It’s really like some pokemon Don Kruger effect lol

I am really convinced you guys did not understand what I said, but I'll make it clear: I don't think, and never had said that Regenvest is broken. There can be some problems, yes, but a simple 2-ability clause can solve it.

I've read it many times and I didn't see anywhere me saying that Regenvest is broken. But when you find a team that is solely about switching to regain HP is, to say the least, boring and, as you said, cheap. Then someone gets tired of it and Belly Drum them to death and people suddenly want to ban Belly Drum. That always happens in other OMs. That's all I have said.

I don't think is that hard to understand what I am trying to say, if all offensive things are banned people are forced to use these "cheap" strategies, and suddenly, there would be no way of countering. Or maybe I am too close to it, but I never got sweeped by a Kyurem or a Belly Drum, so I don't see it either as "broken" or either as even hard. I predicted it would be an issue beforehand.

 

[dehzao]

The reason why Belly Drum and Gouging Fire are broken is because they lack diverse counterplay. You've mentioned an Unaware Pokemon. Are there any other strategies besides Unaware? Exactly what Haze/Clear Smog Pokemon is reliably stopping a Belly Drummer?

First of all thank you for your solution-seeking tone and respectful discussion.

Answering your question: Many other strategies and many other mons. I have used Unaware Torkoal with 252DEF, switched in after the Belly Drum and used Clear Smog after his Close Combat took only 41% of my HP, then I used Parting Shot.

But I give more examples.

Conkeldurr Belly Drums. You can:

a-) Switch in an Unaware Cresselia, Clefable or whatever Psychic Fairy and send him to hell (his bullet punch wouldn't make a scratch)

b-) Sacrifice the mon that was playing then switching to a Prankster Mandibuzz, using Haze and then Parting Shot

c-) Sacrifice the mon that was playing and use a Flying-Normal with Gale Wings and Drill Peck or Brave Bird him to hell

d-) Sacrifice the mon that was playing and use an Eviolite Fluffy Dusclops or any other Ghost to Will O'Wisp him (he cant Sucker Punch a Status)

e-) Sacrifice the mon that was playing and using Queenly Majesty Ogerpon with Choice Band to Wood Hammer him to death

I am sure there are many other counters.

Not sure what this example is supposed to illustrate. If the Kyurem had instead used Glaive Rush instead of setting up first (I'm assuming you switched Regice into Kyurem?) then Regice would not live a +2 Glaive Rush later. Regice gets 2HKOed by Glaive Rush anyways.

No, Kyurem killed the mon that was playing, then I putted Regice and he tanked a 2x Glaive Rush. In my humble opinion, if anything requires 2 hits to do a K.O, its not broken.

You again mention Unaware. The current Steel types with Earth Eater lack any form of reliable recovery. Skarmory gets 2HKOed by a +1 Icicle Crash.

Earth Eater Registeel with Rest/Chesto can do the trick. Iron Defense -> Rest -> Chesto -> Body Press. This is just one example.

Running a Focus Sash Pokemon (with Clear Smog/Haze????) is not a good long-term strategy and only exists rarely on revenge killers/anti-sweepers, such as Focus Sash Marshadow in National Dex Ubers.
+2 252 Atk Kyurem Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

I agree it might not me a good long-term strategy and that's exactly my point. You think I like running a Prankster Deoxys with Haze? It's an useless mon with no attack, but he always frustrates this setters, I use it on my team specifically to counter it and I see no problem in it, even tho I agree with you is not a good long-term strategy. I am sure your Galar-Weezing could Clear Smog too.

Okay. Why am I forced to run a Choice Scarf Pokemon just to defeat Sneasler? And what is this scarfed Pokemon in question?

The same way I have to adapt and use, for instance, a Keldeo with Secret Sword and Surf, so I can attack the Defenses of a Chansey and the Sp.Def of a Skarmory without switching and providing the chance to Roost or Soft-Boil, or Teleport or whatever.

I use Scarf mons specifically to counter it. Many people don't like Grassy Glide, for an example, but use it specifically to counter Inteleon and Barraskewda that are fast and dangerous. We should accept it.

Whenever I am teambuilding I can imagine your team, for an example, Regenvest Suicune, Skarmory, Chansey, G-Weezing and others. When I am building I ask myself, am I able to break 4 walls? Sometimes I do put another pokemon I don't like it to counter it.

But no, you are not forced to run Scarf to beat Sneasler, but you do have to adapt your team, same way people adapt to yours, as I have said. You can use a Gale Wings Braviary for Sneasler, a Scarfed Azelf with Psycho Boost or even a normal Landorus-T, come on, its not that hard...

If we apply your logic of just having "wild ideas to counter these teams", then Umbreon, Roaring Moon, Sneasler, and Haxorus wouldn't be banned because they all balance each other out or whatever.

That's not what I said or meant. What I said is that for every strong umbalanced offensive thing getting banned, one very strong umbalanced defensive thing gets overlooked. Just look at your examples, 01 defensive mon banned for 03 offensive mon banned. I've played against 4 regenvests + 1 Unaware today, If it were to ban somethign offensive, it might as well use a 2-Ability Max Clause to stop it. That is what I have said.

Because all of the offensive things getting invented are being invented to break stall-wall sets.

Besides, Umbreon was naturally umbalanced with base stats of 600def without doing anything + healing + parting shot... It wasn't one thing that made him broken.

Same thing with Haxorus. Base 147atk stat + Dragon's Maw + Outrage that does 120dmg + access to Poison Jab and Iron Head for Fairies, he was naturally broken. It was easier banning him than Dragon's Maw, because Goodra can use Dragon's Maw + Energy, so it was a good call banning him,

Roaring Moon with Band and Hustle was simply ridiculous, you could have any Unaware you wanted and it wouldn't stop him. Good ban with no counters.

Sneasler I didn't like to see her banned, I think banning Dire Claw would be more appropriate, because the problem was the adding stack of Toxic Chain + Dire Claw, leaving with 75% of statusing after every hit, besides, Dire Claw caused to sleep too. I think the problem was Dire Claw, not Sneasler... But there it goes another offensive mon banned while the defensive stalls are walking free.

 

[Cuddly]

a-) Switch in an Unaware Cresselia, Clefable or whatever Psychic Fairy and send him to hell (his bullet punch wouldn't make a scratch)

b-) Sacrifice the mon that was playing then switching to a Prankster Mandibuzz, using Haze and then Parting Shot

c-) Sacrifice the mon that was playing and use a Flying-Normal with Gale Wings and Drill Peck or Brave Bird him to hell

d-) Sacrifice the mon that was playing and use an Eviolite Fluffy Dusclops or any other Ghost to Will O'Wisp him (he cant Sucker Punch a Status)

e-) Sacrifice the mon that was playing and using Queenly Majesty Ogerpon with Choice Band to Wood Hammer him to death

It's not really a good argument.
Not only are you forced to sacrifice something if you don't have an Unaware Pokemon, but most of these only beat just Conk in ideal circumstances.
What if your Gale Wings user isn't at full health?
What if Dusclops get knocked off?
What if the Conk user decided to use Guts?
What if Conk Drain Punched your Sac and got enough HP to survive Wood Hammer with Reflect up?
252 Atk Choice Band Ogerpon Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Conkeldurr through Reflect: 144-170 (41 - 48.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
And all these mons also can't take on other Belly Drum users.

It's like Evasion with less RNG. Yeah you can use Aerial Ace against Double Team Decidueye-H. No, you shouldn't be forced to run Aerial just to beat 1 variant of Evasion when there are multiple Pokemon that learn Evasion.
Like-wise, what are you going to do when you go on ladder with your "Belly Drum Conk counters" and end up facing Belly Drum Belly Drum Sceptile with QM? Or what about Belly Drum Barraskewda and Aqua Jet? What if its Cinderace or Talonflame with Sacred Fire/Pyro Ball?
Not to mention what you're going to do when you don't face a Belly Drum user, or when they play smartly and make sure their Belly Drum user can KO those walls like Fluffy Dusclops anyways or weaken/eliminate Mandibuzz with other sweepers?

And again, most of these require you to sack a Pokemon. A fully healthy Pokemon at that too. Pokemon is a 6 v 6 game, and getting a free kill and damaging another already has value.

 

[dehzao]

Why aren't other strategies and dynamics get treated the same way as you did with this one? It certainly has its own issues too.

Take this example:

Regenvest Suicune - Scald/Knock Off/Mirror Coat/Flip Turn

Regenvest Regirock - Salt Cure/Body Press/Rapid Spin/Volt Switch

Unaware Cresselia - Toxic/Slack Off/Heal Bell/Haze

Magic Guard Florges - Cosmic Power/Stored Power/Body Press/Slack Off

Toxic Chain Okidogi w/ Assault Vest - Fake Out/Poison Fang/Drain Punch/U-Turn

Adaptability Greninja - Ceaseless Edge/Knock Off/Hydro Pump/Flip Turn


Do you get it that teams like these have its entire purpose to win slowly by statusing, hazarding, regaining HP or cosmic powering to the point to make attacking useless?

I'M NOT SAYING ITS BROKEN BECAUSE IT IS HEALTHY FOR THE DYNAMIC AND ITS NICE TO HAVE IT, BUT WITHOUT BIG STRENGTH, ITS VERY HARD TO BEAT.

And before you say it, yes, there are counters to it, but as Ink said, now I would be forced to use something I dont like specifically to beat these teams?

The entire purpose of this team is to stall its way into victory, now, when someone makes a good counter for it, like Belly Drum with Mold Breaker to sweep it off, its called broken?

There are ways to beat Belly Drum, Kyurem, and other offensive sets, I gave 5 counters for it, some require sacrifice, but its doable... I've played against many top of ladders here, none of them uses Belly Drum or Kyurem. If it is that broken, how come people that use it are not on top???

This game is also supposed to be fun, the possibility of sweeping defensive teams must exist. The game is amazing as it is right now and the moderators are doing an amazing job by doing it slow and not banning things out of desperation and I feel most people come here to complain to ban just to blow some steam off... Like the guy who complained about COTTON GUARD RAIKOU WITH LEVITATE which is also easily beatable.

That's the whole dynamic and fun of the OMs and some people want to go for bans just because their strategy got beaten. I've played against at least 30 Belly Drums and none has ever beaten me, how broken could it be???

The counters I've offered are valid, even if requires sacrifices. If you want to agree to disagree, thats fine, honestly I'm done arguing, if it were that broken, it would have been unbalanced and already banned by now, be sure of it. Moderators are doing a good job and there will ALWAYS be people complaining to ban specific things that beated them, I don't think its healthy for the OM to listen to them. Only thing I feel its needed is a 2-max ability clause, people are abusing that and some other OMs implemented it succesfully, but as I've said, I won't argue anymore, there's a reason these things are not banned, and that is that its not broken.

 

[dehzao]

It's not really a good argument.
Not only are you forced to sacrifice something if you don't have an Unaware Pokemon, but most of these only beat just Conk in ideal circumstances.
What if your Gale Wings user isn't at full health?
What if Dusclops get knocked off?
What if the Conk user decided to use Guts?
What if Conk Drain Punched your Sac and got enough HP to survive Wood Hammer with Reflect up?
252 Atk Choice Band Ogerpon Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Conkeldurr through Reflect: 144-170 (41 - 48.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
And all these mons also can't take on other Belly Drum users.

Just to answer you tho:

1 - Always leave your Gale Wings mon with full health, use a healing move or save it to use it against a fighting Pokemon that could build up, most of its value resides in this, its a no brainer

2 - Really? And I am the one with bad arguments? If Dusclops get Knocked Off, still Conk will need to Sucker Punch him as Mach Punch doesnt hit Ghost and he won't be able to Sucker Punch a Status Move, again, a no brainer

3 - If the Conk decides to use Guts, encore his Sucker Punch, you can even use Spiritomb's Prankster or Stall to encore... If he does something different to that, merits to him, he deserves to win

4 - Really??? Now you are imagining a Reflect out of nowhere??? Man, if the opponent had the time to REFLECT before a Conkeldurr, which is a defensive mon, more power to him, let him win... Stop looking for excuses, you know that without a Reflect it would be OHKO, specially because Belly Drum users are usually at 75% HP

It's like Evasion with less RNG. Yeah you can use Aerial Ace against Double Team Decidueye-H. No, you shouldn't be forced to run Aerial just to beat 1 variant of Evasion when there are multiple Pokemon that learn Evasion.
Like-wise, what are you going to do when you go on ladder with your "Belly Drum Conk counters" and end up facing Belly Drum Belly Drum Sceptile with QM? Or what about Belly Drum Barraskewda and Aqua Jet? What if its Cinderace or Talonflame with Sacred Fire/Pyro Ball?

Very bad example, and quite frankly, biased. I use Prankster/Haze. I did not made it thinking only to "beat 1 variant of Belly Drum when there are multiple Pokemon that learns it" but any potential Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Cosmic Power. I knew beforehand those moves would make strong Pokemon even stronger, that's the whole dynamic of the OM. If you don't like something, you should adapt, not complain for a ban.

Honestly, implying that I was only referring to Conkeldurr was a bad argument. Unaware, for an example, fits to counter more than one Pokemon.

Not to mention what you're going to do when you don't face a Belly Drum user, or when they play smartly and make sure their Belly Drum user can KO those walls like Fluffy Dusclops anyways or weaken/eliminate Mandibuzz with other sweepers?

I have one Prankster and one Unaware in my team. If one faints, there is another. If he plays smartly and make sure their Belly Drum user is free to play freely, without both which, of course, I will look to avoid, but if he still manages to do it, more power to him, he outplayed me and deserved it.

And again, most of these require you to sack a Pokemon. A fully healthy Pokemon at that too. Pokemon is a 6 v 6 game, and getting a free kill and damaging another already has value.

So? You expect to win 6 x 0 all of the time? That's ludacris. You can't win all of the time, sometimes you will lose, there is randomness on Pokemon. If you dont focus on counter on what bothers you, you might lose to it, it doesn't mean that the player who beated you used a broken strategy.

You don't understand that offensive players did that exactly to counter these cheap disgusting strategies like Toxic/Protect/Substitute. Funny thing is that all of the other players had to adapt to these cheap strategies, but when its their time to adapt they think: "oh nooo, I don't want to have to use Scarf, or Prankster or Unaware just to beat a Belly Drum/Kyurem/Gourging". Adapt.

 

[dehzao]

And honestly, Cuddly , no offense because you're cool, but your arguments also seems ilogical, you mentioned Solar Power Specs Moltres and he wouldn't even hurt a Regenvest Suicune, he would just Flip Turn on Moltres to a Regirock or Greninja, then Moltres would have to retreat or die for nothing, not to mention that if there's Stealth Rock on the stage Moltres is already dead, because he is not running Heavy-Duty Boots, so its kinda hard to take it into consideration.

 

[shadowpea]

might asw teampost, this one done well and its about time i made another team anyway. i think some of this chat would recognize this well.



scarf proto hydra is rather nonessential and really just need to be speed control, ive used both zarude and melo in its slot with good success. intim tinglu is cool btw, its hilariously difficult to kill with a physical hit. team mostly just pivots to rgb to kill stuff and then the speed unit cleans. use melo if you hate drumspam, ive almost never had it conflict with tclap anyway.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 315-371 (98.1 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO btw

 

[Cuddly]

And honestly, Cuddly , no offense because you're cool, but your arguments also seems ilogical, you mentioned Solar Power Specs Moltres and he wouldn't even hurt a Regenvest Suicune, he would just Flip Turn on Moltres to a Regirock or Greninja, then Moltres would have to retreat or die for nothing, not to mention that if there's Stealth Rock on the stage Moltres is already dead, because he is not running Heavy-Duty Boots, so its kinda hard to take it into consideration.

View attachment 791355

Moltres is faster and Suicune needs to be at full health to switch in easily.
With 1 Spike and Stealth Rock, Suicune needs be at 357 HP (or 88% HP) to even survive while Sun is up.
Basically if Suicune took about 45% damage prior (with same hazards up, you only need to deal 20% with another Pokemon), it no longer is able to switch in to Moltres. Which is also the minimum amount of damage for Weather Ball too.

Maths

Stealth Rock/1 Spike = floor(404 * 0.125) = 50

SR + Spike = 50 * 2 = 100

2 Weather Balls + Hazards = (128 * 2) + 100 = 356 (357 needed to survive)

Regenerator = floor(404/3) = 134

Regen - Hazard = 134 - 100 = 34

Prior damage need = (404 - 357) + 34 = 81
(for reference, a Sacred Fire from Drought Cinderace deals at minimum 101, which could also burn the Suicune too. And U-turn also deals a minimum of 62)

This whole post also assumes you get only low rolls and you weren’t able to set up more hazards. 3 Spikes + Rock 2HKOs Suicune
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Moltres Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Suicune in Sun: 128-151 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes

This also lastly assumes you can’t Knock Off the Suicune, even though as a Regen user it’s supposed to pivot in constantly (which only hurts Suicune’s chances of surviving against Moltres) to defend against attackers. If you remove the Assault Vest with one of the most spammable moves, Moltres 2HKOs majority of the time.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Moltres Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Suicune in Sun: 192-227 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

 

[EtherealLouser]

You don't understand that offensive players did that exactly to counter these cheap disgusting strategies like Toxic/Protect/Substitute. Funny thing is that all of the other players had to adapt to these cheap strategies, but when its their time to adapt they think: "oh nooo, I don't want to have to use Scarf, or Prankster or Unaware just to beat a Belly Drum/Kyurem/Gourging". Adapt.

We've been dancing around this "Belly Drum Broken" talking point so much, and we have made no progress in understanding why one side is so adamantly for/against Belly Drum. If you don't mind sharing, dehzao, could you drop some of the teams you have been using that you believe have adapted to the metagame and have "played against at least 30 Belly Drums and none [have] ever beaten [you]"? I want to understand why you think the way you do about these metagame hot topics, so to speak.

 

[G-Luke]

​

These listed elements have been heavily discussed throughout the metagame since the bans have been placed, and this has not fallen on deaf ears, as we the council will be continuing to discuss these elements as well. I would prefer if discussion be shifted primarily around these elements, and also strongly suggest any arguments for or against banning these Pokémon / elements be backed by some replays to support them. Either way, expect actions to take place later this week or so. Otherwise, happy Converging!

 

[AIPS]

why aren't Snow Cloak / Sand Veil banned? they're clearly uncompetitive.

 

[Geotree123]

Why have we banned gallade and primarina, instead of pure/huge power. Gallade could become a decent priority user if it was allowed, and a sap sipper primarina would be great against ogerpon.

With prim and gallade banned, all it does is remove two pokemon that have real strategies to be used. In such a high power metagame, azumarill and medicham are never going to be used anyway, so why choose to option that keeps them.

 

[G-Luke]

Why have we banned gallade and primarina, instead of pure/huge power. Gallade could become a decent priority user if it was allowed, and a sap sipper primarina would be great against ogerpon.

With prim and gallade banned, all it does is remove two pokemon that have real strategies to be used. In such a high power metagame, azumarill and medicham are never going to be used anyway, so why choose to option that keeps them.

We don't do bans to diversify the metagame. We ban the most broken things in the most efficient way possible.

We have no current reason to ban neither Huge Power nor Pure Power since we alhave active users in the metagame that are perfectly fine and healthy presenses in the metagame. Primarina and Gallade are broken users of otherwise so far balanced tools. We ban Pokémon unless multiple separate Pokémon can be established to be broken with the moves/abilities in question. Wigglytuff, Azumarill and Medicham are all gone or even seem as mediocre, so that clearly established that Huge Power and Pure Power are not the problem.

Gallade is an unmon if we wanted to directly address your argument anyways

 

[Cuddly]

Kyurem is a really strong Pokemon thanks to the things it gets access from with Baxcalibur.
Thermal Exchange making Dragon Dance variants immune to burn and punishing Fire attacks with a +1 to your Atk is a strong attribute to have. Additionally the access to Earthquake is pretty big for Kyurem since Ice and Ground pair up very nicely. You hit Fire and Steel super effectively and Water neutrally with Earthquake, while also hitting most the Flying, Grass, and Bug types for neutral at least with Icicle Crash/Spear.
Then, as a Kyurem, you can use that threat of DD sweeper as a bluff when you’re in fact using Special attacks.
Baxcalibur itself should be banned since Baxcalibur can pull off most of the things Kyurem can anyways and already proved to be overwhelming in the past, while regular Kyurem remained legal. Especially since Tera is not legal here and Kyurem can’t run a make shift Earthquake on DD sets.

(Belly Drum)
Belly Drum is part of the “usual suspects”. Types of moves or abilities that get banned in OM because they were designed with certain Pokemon in mind. Huge Power for example was designed with low Atk or Megas evolution in mind. If gets banned because allowing any Pokemon to get x2 Atk with no drawbacks would be way too powerful.
In Belly Drum’s case, its designed with Pokemon from Charizard to Ursaluna in mind, making sure it’s a +6 Atk instantly is not so easy to obtain and sweep with.
Besides form changes, Charizard/Lioone are the fastest Belly Drum users, being only 100 Speed and not having high Atks.
Ursaluna and Iron Hand have incredibly high Atks, but also only have 50 Spe and their bulk is undercut by the halving HP.
There are also very few Pokemon with Belly Drum that also get Priority. Even among priority users, only Azumarill/Marill, Lioone/Zigzagoon, and Zangoose get STAB priority.
Now imagine if Pokemon way faster than Charizard and significantly stronger than Charizard got Belly Drum.
Or Pokemon about as strong as Ursaluna and Iron Hand but are also in respectable speed tiers and got STAB priority also learned Belly Drum.
Or if dozens of Pokemon got Belly Drum suddenly and now you have to guess if your opponent has the instant +6 Atk move or not, on top of somehow preparing for ever permutation of Belly Drum. Like how bringing Aerial Ace/Insomnia to beat Evasion/Sleep since the opponent can just use a Pokemon with a type advantage.

Yeah Belly Drum honestly should have been banned from the start imo. I think people not abusing it just assume it’s banned. I remember when back when Bright Powder/Snow Cloak/Sand Veil were legal for some reason, then learning the hard way that they weren’t.


I can’t say much about Gouging Fire. Personally I’m more partial towards Garchomp. Getting all of Flygon’s goodies with the stats of Garchomp is excellent. And Gouging Fire gets negative things in this Metagame. No Heat Rock or Tera, and no legal Fire/Dragon types to share movepools and abilities with.
So on the surface it looks fine, but I could be wrong and should use it myself to see how effective it is.

Before I go on, which versions of Ogerpon are on the radar?

 

[JamesB00]

Why Isn't Copycat Banned?!?
All Psychic and Fighting types (+ Grafaiai/Shroodle) can become near immortal and stall games to over 350 turns.

History:
In Gen5 VGC there used to be a gimmic called 'DiveCats'. Watch WolfeVGC's Video on it here. That allowed Purrloin and Liepard to become completely invulnerable to all moves with '0 priority'. Currently in Convergence, this is possible with all pure psychic and fighting types, and is ungodly levels of toxic.

The actual method behind this requires a Pokemon with the ability Prankster, holding a Lagging Tail, and using a Status Move (Assist/Copycat) to call a Two-Turn Semi-Invulnerable move (Dig, Fly, Bounce, Shadow Force, Phantom Force, Sky Drop, and Dive). Prankster gives the Status Move +1 Priority, so the Status Move is able to call in an attack before your opponent can move. Then on the second turn, your move will be moved to the end of the speed order due to the lagging tail keeping you invulnerable until after your opponent's attack.

While this does sound nice, there are some weaknesses and ways to outplay the gimmic:
- +1 priority moves like Quick Attack will go before the Status Move due to the Lagging Tail.
- All Semi-Invulnerable moves make contact, so defensive contact effects like the Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, or Spiky Shield will damage the user.
- Knock-Off/Switcheroo/Trick will remove the Lagging Tail and potentially disrupt the combo.
- Immunities to Ground/Water/Ghost, or a bad type matchup for Flying can prevent the user from dealing any damage.

Grafaiai:
In base Scarlet/Violet Grafaiai has access to the Prankster ability alongside the moves Copycat and Dig. With a Lagging Tail, this allows Grafaiai to effortlessly use the combination after 'setting up' by using dig a single time. However, this is a very weak gimmic due to Grafaiai's relatively frail stats and common immunities to dig. It was discovered in early gen 9 OU, but has an insane number of common mons that disrupt this. Two other mons that are able to do this combo are it's pre-evolution Shroodle, and Riolu.

Fighting types:
In Convergence, Riolu gives all mono Fighting type pokemon access to Prankster, Copycat, and Dig. This is already the recipe for the 'DiveCats' combo, but in addition to this the Hariyama line gives all mono Fighting types access to Belly Drum and the Mienshao line gives access to Bounce. With the combination of Dig and Bounce there is now type coverage with no single immunity, and the option of Belly Drum to make it a disgusting setup sweep. While there's probably other more useful tools, this combination just seems so incredibly toxic. The best mon for the job seems to be Conkeldurr, due to it's massive attack stat and great natural defenses.

Conkeldurr @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
- Copycat
- Belly Drum
- Dig
- Bounce

Psychic Types:
Meowstic Male gives all mono Psychic types access to Prankster. From there Espeon and Mespirit have Copycat, Mew has both Fly and Dig, Grumpig has Bounce, and Galarian Slowpoke has Belly Drum. These are all the same tools as the fighting types, but with access to the more accurate Fly in addition to a WAY deeper movepool. The combo only needs 2 moves to work, so with access to things like Wish, Heal Bell, Encore, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Haze, Knock Off, and so much more Psychic types allow for a much deeper depth of supporting options.

Not only do Psychic types allow for more coverage options to the broken gimmic set, but they have more mons to chose from. Bulky mons like Cresselia, Mespirit, Mew, or Deoxys-Defense make it easy to use a stall version of the gimmic, but you can also go more offenseive with mons like Aself or Necrozma.

Cresselia @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
- Copycat
- Fly
- Thunder Wave

Mesprit @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
- Copycat
- Dig
- Fly
- Knock Off

Deoxys-Defense @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
- Copycat
- Fly
- Heal Bell
- Stealth Rock

In Conclusion:
This is ungodly toxic not only due to it's ability to allow the user to attack without being able to be attacked back, but it's an abusable stall tactic. Copycat has 32pp, and if you're using it to call two turn moves it's going to take 64 turns to burn through it all. On a team with 6 mons that are using this strategy you're untouchable for a minimum of 348 turns. Not to mention, you can't plan for what mon will be using this strategy, as there's 51 legal mons (list at bottom) able to use this strategy, with the possibility of 2 unused move slots. This gimmic doesn't need to be used every time, your Conkeldurr can run BellyDrum with SuckerPunch normally and if the matchup's right swap to bouncing on it immortal style.

All mons able to become untouchable in Convergence as of 12/08/2025:
- Grafaiai & Shroodle
- Psychic Types: Mew, Cresselia, Uxie, Aself, Mespirit, Necrozma, Deoxys-Defense, Espeon, Reuniclus, Gothitelle, Hypno, Espathra, Grumpig, Meowstic(M/F), Chimecho, Cosmoem, Gothorita, Duosion, Hattrem, Espurr, Spoink, Drowzee, Slowpoke-Galar, Gothita, Solosis, Chingling, Hattena, Flittle, and Cosmog
- Fighting Types: Mienshao, Conkeldurr, Passimian, Tauros-Paldea-Combat, Hariyama, Falinks, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Primeape, Gurdurr, Kubfu, Mienfoo, Crabrawler, Mankey, Timburr, Riolu, Makuhita, and Tyrogue.

Pretty Please Ban Copycat <3

How my GOAT Chingling be moving on the +6atk Ogerpon after dodging 64 consecutive one shots:

 

[Dorsia]

Before I go on, which versions of Ogerpon are on the radar?

I'm pretty sure this is the Grass one, since the other forms don't gain anything (perhaps Swift Swim Waterpon lol) and cannot tera anyway.

Pure Grass Ogerpon has access to an impressive moveset (Triple Axel, Earthquake, Bulk Up, Milk Drink...) + Protean/Grassy Surge/Poison Heal... as abilities, which definitely makes it better.

Also I don't know about , I've barely met a couple of them, yet I'd say ok for a suspect regarding and

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Why Isn't Copycat Banned?!?

Because a single Regenerator Pokemon shuts down the entire strategy. Do you wonder why regular Grafaiai with Copycat Dig sees almost no usage in any tier? Also, Rocky Helmet and priority moves exist, like First Impression.
Have you actually had any games where you reached a minimum of 348 turns?

 

[Cuddly]

I'm pretty sure this is the Grass one, since the other forms don't gain anything (perhaps Swift Swim Waterpon lol) and cannot tera anyway.

Pure Grass Ogerpon has access to an impressive moveset (Triple Axel, Earthquake, Bulk Up, Milk Drink...) + Protean/Grassy Surge/Poison Heal... as abilities, which definitely makes it better.

Also I don't know about , I've barely met a couple of them, yet I'd say ok for a suspect regarding and

Water Pon does get Ice Spinner from Ludicolo. And if it were legal, Stone Pon would get Storm Drain, Earthquake, and Recover.
But yeah, I see Base Pon getting all that stuff is pretty crazy.

 

[JamesB00]

Because a single Regenerator Pokemon shuts down the entire strategy. Do you wonder why regular Grafaiai with Copycat Dig sees almost no usage in any tier? Also, Rocky Helmet and priority moves exist, like First Impression.
Have you actually had any games where you reached a minimum of 348 turns?

Yeah I mentioned those things in the post, thanks for restating them.

Although I'm not a fan of stall, I've won 2 games today with this as my win condition only using the Deoxys-Defense set I posted. After getting rid of priority threats like Ogerpon and SlitherWing and their Hazard removers, my opponents just didn't have a way to deal damage to me for 64 turns and died to Stealth Rocks chip/pp stalled allowing me to win with other mons. It's pretty disgusting imo and shouldn't be in the metagame. Besides, literally what use does Copycat have besides this?