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Could a fully physical team work?

StarmanXL

StarmanXL

As in no special attacks, but still uses status.

I figured since mono-special worked, mono-physical could work as well. It's great because I don't have to worry (as much) about that egg-whore Blissey.

My first concern, though, is that, since there are so many physical walls, how do I break them? I can't use mixed sets, which kinda bites, but apparently every wall has a hole...so what's the best thing to exploit that? Which physical walls fall to which physical sweepers or other physical-oriented walls? I'm considering CBHera, but my experiences with Heracross have been...less than stellar. >_>
 
Interesting idea, but, most teams have more physical bulk then special bulk, and there are usually more physical walls on a team than special walls. It's not like how a team usually dies to special attacks once Blissey is out of the way.
 
Yeah, it could work if you want to counter Blissey. But, you would just get walled by Skarmory in OU, Giratina and Lugia in ubers. Teams need to be balenced enough to counter most threats in both of these Tiers.
 
Well Gyarados can kind of take down skarm and beats most of the bulky grounds.

Infernape could take down skarm and bronzong i suppose (but cant switch in for crap)

I would be more worried about Cress though I guess ttar can take it.
 
Don't be so quick to say it will automatically get walled by Skarm; if my mono-special team can take down a Blissey (albeit with some prediction and difficulty, but it can be done), then I don't think it's appropriate to just automatically assume that one pokemon will always stop me dead no matter what.

EDIT: What about Ubers? I play OU.
 
StarmanXL said:
As in no special attacks, but still uses status.

I figured since mono-special worked, mono-physical could work as well. It's great because I don't have to worry (as much) about that egg-whore Blissey.

My first concern, though, is that, since there are so many physical walls, how do I break them? I can't use mixed sets, which kinda bites, but apparently every wall has a hole...so what's the best thing to exploit that? Which physical walls fall to which physical sweepers or other physical-oriented walls? I'm considering CBHera, but my experiences with Heracross have been...less than stellar. >_>
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I think an all special team works better then a all physical team for a couple of reasons.

The 120 BP special attacks can over come the ultimate special wall Blissey, with enough boosts. Same with Specs Luc Aura Sphere, and then Tri Attack/Hyper Beam Porygon.

This is mainly because of typing issues. Not many if any special walls are 4x resistant to fire (for Spec'd Overheats), or 4x resistant to Dragon (spec'd Meteor's). Ditto with Adapt Tri Attacks (though ghosts work for Tri Attacks).

Hence why Blissey becomes the best special wall in the game. Doesn't need to be resistant to anything, because of mass amounts of HP to compensate.

Then you look on the physical side instead. The strongest physical attacks, commonly used are Megahorn, Close Combat, Earth Quake and Stone Edge.

These attacks are 4x resisted often enough. Close Combat and Earthquake have immunities each, all on common Pokemon.

So if you Band any of the above attacks, you get walled easily. You can't just power your way through with the above special attacks.

Even Gengar can walk in on two of Heracrosses Banded attacks, live and threaten back, and he's hyper fragile.

So I don't think it can be done as easily as a special team, just because there are too many resistances to some of the strongest physical attacks, and too many bulky Pokemon running around who can walk in on said attacks.

So you can't overpower the way a Spec'd Heatran would using Overheat, and all the prominent Swords Dance users have obvious counters, which everyone packs, to stop the sweep anyway.
 
I think a physical team could work, providing the opponent doesn't stack their teams with Hippodwon, Swampert, Skarmory, etc.
 
Umm, Heracross destroys Skarmory if it switches into Close Combat, and it can also destroy Cresselia with CB Megahorn.

A dragon would be pretty important since Outrage hurts anything really badly, even some things that resist it.

Even something like Scizor could destroy Cresselia with a CB U-Turn while having the opprtunity to switch to something else to finish it off.

Mono-physical is easier than mono-special IMO since the physical walls just simply aren't as hard to kill, and the fact that the average pokemon has more special defense than physical defense.

The big guys like Skarmory/Cresselia and such aren't even that hard to kill. If this was ADV, then it would be harder since Skarmory was so much better then, but it's DP and Skarmory just can't take hits as well as it used to be able to, and it's basically the best physical wall out there...well Hippowdon is there...

Even Hippowdon won't enjoy switching into a big Waterfall from Gyarados, with Taunt screwing up the Slack Offs, what's it gonna do? Yes, it can Stone Edge, but Gyarados will be doing more damage if it's dragon danced already, which it almost certainly will have if Hippowdon is SWITCHING IN.

Slowbro gets its ass kicked by CB Megahorn from Heracross.

Yeah, so it's not that hard, and is a lot easier IMO to do than special teams.
 
I'd say yes, that an all-physical team is viable, at first glance probably more so than an all-special team. On the all-special side you have Blissey who can wall nearly every special attacker to hell and back (and that's without EV's in sp def), but on the physical side you've got no real good single wall.

On the other hand, like someone else mentioned, teams tend to carry more physical walls/tanks than special ones. Blissey is far from impossible to dispose of without using physical attacks (perish-trappers, Specs-cario, Sub/CM Mismagius, the list goes on), but despite that teams usually only carry Blissey since she does such an amazing job of walling most special attackers. On the other hand, teams usually carry at least 2 beefy physical pokemon, and those pokemon will always be changing from team to team so it's much more difficult for one physical attacker to be able to take all of them at once. On the other hand, there are plenty of physical pokemon that are capable of taking out more than one wall, so...it'd end up depending on the teams.

So, while the concept of an all-physical team looks better on paper, an all-special team would probably be better in practice thanks to the way that opposing teams are often constructed.
 
Take my advice, use CBGallade. It works wonders at breaking the common physical walls in the game. Skarmory, Rhyperior, Forretress, among many others are 2HKO'd by Close Combat. Weezing can be met with a well-aimed Psycho Cut. Bulky ground- and water-types are sliced by Leaf Blade. The occasional Tangrowth or Gliscor can be met with a swift Ice Punch. Dusknoir and Cresselia are warded off with Night Slash. It's just excellent at breaking walls, leaving your opponent open to a Swords Dance Weavile sweep or other speedy sweepers.
 
Adamant max attack Ursaring with guts activated after a swords dance versus some walls (all of which are given max defense and hit points-something many don't actually have normally):

Ursaring vs. Hippowdon
Facade:
Minimum: 483, an overkill of 63
Average: 525, an overkill of 105
Maximum: 568, an overkill of 148

Swampert (facade):
Minimum: 580, an overkill of 160
Average: 631, an overkill of 211
Maximum: 684, an overkill of 264

Clearly, facade is ridiculous, and thus we don't have to do any further calculations regarding it's overkill. Instead, pokemon that resist it:

Ursaring vs. Skarmory:
Fire Punch:
Minimum:306 damage with 28 HP remaining
Average: 334 damage with 0 HP remaining (exactly)
Maximum: 362 damage; an overkill of 28 HP

Bronzong (Fire punch)
Minimum:350 damage; an overkill of 12
Average: 380; an overkill of 42
Maximum: 412 damage; an overkill of 74 HP

Dusknoir (Crunch)
Minimum:336 damage; an overkill of 42
Average: 366; an overkill of 72
Maximum: 396 damage; an overkill of 102 HP

Spiritomb (earthquake)
Minimum 244 damage leaving it with 60 Hp
Average: 266 damage leaving it with 38 Hp
Maximum: 288 damage leaving it with 16 Hp

These normally are more oriented towards special defense however....

Clearly, some physical attackers do pack the power to smash physical walls.

However, personally, I do normally run very heavily physical teams that pack Magnezone as a special attacker and trapper of some certain physical walls-or other counters meant to overcome the threats some way or another.
 
I think Fishin hit the nail on the head and succintly summarized what a lot of other people have already mentioned. An all-physical team is by no means impossible but I think it would be a lot more difficult to pull off in practise. For all-special, all you have to worry about is countering Blissey and predicting what resistant types will be coming in to counter you. For all-physical you have a lot of different walls with varying types that can very potentially ruin your day if you don't properly set up/make an appropriate moveset to deal with as much as possible.

For my own suggestion I'm tempted to recommend Pinsir over Heracross. With a Life Orb, Mold Breaker ability and Swords Dance, you can run Stone Edge, X-scissor and Earthquake to very great effect. Of course one could argue that CB Heracross with the aformentioned moves+Night Slash would be more effective but I'd say it depends on the rest of your team (And doesn't it always? Heh)
 
Yoshi King said:
I think Fishin hit the nail on the head and succintly summarized what a lot of other people have already mentioned. An all-physical team is by no means impossible but I think it would be a lot more difficult to pull off in practise.
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I don't think it's more difficult in practice: there's no real Blissey for all physical attackers so chances are you'll be able to go around their physical walls somehow. What makes it hard is that the meta seems so physically-heavy ATM that most teams are a few moveslots away from the type of team Starman is describing anyway. I see a lot of "secondary" physical walls (stuff like Donphan: not meant to be pulling point but can take hits and provides other functions like RS), I don't see a lot of secondary special walls and it's getting to the point where when I put in a special wall on my team I seriously have to justify to myself that it's not a wasted slot.
 
Infernape_Kong said:
Take my advice, use CBGallade. It works wonders at breaking the common physical walls in the game. Skarmory, Rhyperior, Forretress, among many others are 2HKO'd by Close Combat. Weezing can be met with a well-aimed Psycho Cut. Bulky ground- and water-types are sliced by Leaf Blade. The occasional Tangrowth or Gliscor can be met with a swift Ice Punch. Dusknoir and Cresselia are warded off with Night Slash. It's just excellent at breaking walls, leaving your opponent open to a Swords Dance Weavile sweep or other speedy sweepers.
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Couldn't CB Medicham do all that just better? Hi Jump Kick is slightly weaker than CC iirc but only just, his higher attack stat makes up for it, and the rest of his attacks he will hit alot harder with
 
Bologo said:
Umm, Heracross destroys Skarmory if it switches into Close Combat, and it can also destroy Cresselia with CB Megahorn.
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And Gliscor? Completly walls everything Heracross throws at him, and Herecross is arguably one of the most prominent physical attackers in the game.

A Pokemon like Scarf/Band Medicham could do it with Ice Punch, but it's going to take a fair amount of prediction, and she can't exactly switch in on Gliscor without getting KO'ed in return (especially if it's carrying Aerial Ace), and that's only if Gliscor is dumb enough to stay in.

Banded, Ice Punching Metagross might be able to do it as well, but it has to play dodge the quake.

Not saying it's impossible, just that most people shore up that weakness.

So you get a second wall, say Mesprit, Cresselia, or a bulky water, who can counter outraging Garchomp, and DDancing Gyarados.

You've just countered the 3 top Physical threats in the game. All of which everyone tries to prepare for in part, because they are such big threats already.

So as few other people have said. Blissey is able to be overcome, because people look to her as a 1 stop solution for everything, and she really is. Outside of the most potent special threats in the game (which not everyone is going to carry), she works. So you only have 1 obstacle to worry about.

On the other hand, most teams carry 1 Solid Physical wall, and 2 Bulkies to shore up weaknesses their 1 Solid Physical wall can't handle. Team builders just naturally do this. If their Physical wall is Gyrados weak, you'll be darn sure they're carrying something to handle that as well.

On the reverse, someone carrying Blissey, isn't likely to be carrying say a purely special wall Milotic, who walls Heatran, and is an alternative counter to SpecMence/Lucario. They consider it a waste of space. They use Blissey, because they are having enough trouble type covering for their physical weaknesses, much less their extra special deficiencies.
 
My main team in shoddy is almost entirely physically oriented. The only special attacks are on starmie and Fire Blast on Scarfchomp.

One of the best tools for taking on physical walls is subseeding Breloom. He outspeeds most physical walls to spore, and then proceeds to sub/seed/punch until the opponent is dead.

Gyarados takes care of scarmory, and starmie is easily replaced by a good heracross.

My final linup would be something like

Gyarados@Leftovers
Bulky
DD, Taunt, Waterfall, Stone Edge

Breloom@Toxic Orb
Whatever Ev's
Spore, Sub, Seed, Punch

Snorlax@Chesto Berry/Leftovers
Whatever Ev's
Curse, Body Slam, Crunch, Rest

Forretress@leftovers
Whatever Ev's
Explosion, Rapid Spin, SR, EQ

Scarfchomp@Choice Scarf
Whatever Ev's
Outrage, Crunch, EQ, Fire Fang (Maybe drop for Dragon claw)

Heracross@CB/CS
Whatever Ev's
Megahorn, Close Combat, Stone Edge, Pursuit

That teams all physical and can at least threaten most walls. The heracross is the only poke not on my actual team so other replacementsw may actually be better.

I know Cress is still a pain but Hera helps that with pursuit, and breloom can spore/leech seed anyway as it can usually survive one ice beam.

The original concept for my team was to overload physical walls to open up for a sweep. It doesn't work too well in a stallwar but it can win if played well.
 
Bone Ronin said:
My main team in shoddy is almost entirely physically oriented. The only special attacks are on starmie and Fire Blast on Scarfchomp.

One of the best tools for taking on physical walls is subseeding Breloom. He outspeeds most physical walls to spore, and then proceeds to sub/seed/punch until the opponent is dead.

Gyarados takes care of scarmory, and starmie is easily replaced by a good heracross.

My final linup would be something like

Gyarados@Leftovers
Bulky
DD, Taunt, Waterfall, Stone Edge

Breloom@Toxic Orb
Whatever Ev's
Spore, Sub, Seed, Punch

Snorlax@Chesto Berry/Leftovers
Whatever Ev's
Curse, Body Slam, Crunch, Rest

Forretress@leftovers
Whatever Ev's
Explosion, Rapid Spin, SR, EQ

Scarfchomp@Choice Scarf
Whatever Ev's
Outrage, Crunch, EQ, Fire Fang (Maybe drop for Dragon claw)

Heracross@CB/CS
Whatever Ev's
Megahorn, Close Combat, Stone Edge, Pursuit

That teams all physical and can at least threaten most walls. The heracross is the only poke not on my actual team so other replacementsw may actually be better.

I know Cress is still a pain but Hera helps that with pursuit, and breloom can spore/leech seed anyway as it can usually survive one ice beam.

The original concept for my team was to overload physical walls to open up for a sweep. It doesn't work too well in a stallwar but it can win if played well.
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This only helps prove the point a bit. Gliscor/Weezing wall 3 of your Pokemon alone. Hera, Breloom and Garchomp.

Now I know you can say "spore", but whose going to directly switch in Gliscor on Breloom? Everyone knows the spore is coming, so most likely we switch in our secondary threat to Breloom, leaving Gliscor to come in and wall you completly.

Ditto to Hera.

Scarfchomp 3KO's Gliscor, meaning it can Roost wall you indefinitly and wait until you're confused to switch in a threat.

Curselax can be dealt with by an opposing bulky Bander (common)/Roarer, or is Hazed out by Weezing.

That leaves Gyarados. So say they pack Swampert. What do you do? Explode/Sleep sounds about right at this point, assuming they let you spore Swampert (unlikely, considering Breloom is the LAST Pokemon on your team that Swampert is staying in on). Ditto to explosion. No one switches in their walls to wall Forretress, because who wants to give him an excuse to spike up? They "might" switch in Blissey or Cresselia for a free Calm Mind (whom you then explode on), but Swampert isn't likely to be the first one to come in on Forre, Mixpert or not.

So two Pokemon are already causing HUGE decision making issues for you. What about the other 4?

Blissey was a huge obstacle for a special team to take down, but it was a simple solution as well. Pack so much power into one attack, that not even Blissey can take, and bank on the fact that likely, they don't have anyone better who wants to take a Spec'd Flashfire Overheat/Draco Meteor/Tri Attack to the face.
 
Things like burn and intimidate only affect physical attacks. There aren't any equivalents for special attacks, so its more stuff to deal with.
 
Metagross
Tyranitar
Heracross
Garchomp
Gyarados
Salamence
Infernape
Snorlax
Lucario
Weavile
Mamoswine
Medicham
Electivire
Dragonite

Why is everything so difficult? You could probably win if you slap 5 of those Pokes together, slap on a Choice Band/Life Orb to all of them, add a Wishing Jirachi, and have fun.

Although you WILL lose to other people's Pokes such as: Infernape.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
Metagross
Tyranitar
Heracross
Garchomp
Gyarados
Salamence
Infernape
Snorlax
Lucario
Weavile
Mamoswine
Medicham
Electivire
Dragonite

Why is everything so difficult? You could probably win if you slap 5 of those Pokes together, slap on a Choice Band/Life Orb to all of them, add a Wishing Jirachi, and have fun.
Click to expand...

It's not difficult, but you can also slap 5 UU/BL Pokemon and sometimes win as well.

What Starman is basically asking is, can a all Physical Team work as well as say his all Special Team. Myself and a few others are arguing no. No one is saying it can't win a few or even a fair share amount of battles though.

If you tiered it, in terms of effectiveness though, I'd order it as:

Well Balanced Team/Stall Team
All Special Team
All Physical Team
Well Balanced B/L/UU team.
 
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