-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]
- Thread starter ganj4lF
- Start date
MeleeMewtoo
For Shur :
Okay, I really want to leave all this mess but ..
First, if you're translating things like that, I guess I'll be a dumbass all day. Basically there must be many people around you who are dumbass no ?
Because I just pointed out that it was pretty unfair to jump so fast to conclusions (and I mean it) and deny people's ideas this way.
Sorry Ganjalf for being a little off, because it's the vote and all, but I want to try to defend my pick, which I believe is totally fine, till the very end =)
Possible Mates :
This being cleared, it is true that I did not answer to your question.
Excuse me for that, but I have some reasons to explain my mistake :
- Pretty hard to answer to two different people talking to you without missing stuff
- I already mentionned numerous possible team mates for Gliscor (basically in the end of my nomination, but you did not read it so..) and in one of my other answers.
So once again I believe that you jumped to conclusions too fast maybe. And this, is totally different from taking your time or not, maybe you'll understand the shade of difference (you could take one day reading a post to understand it, and still jump too fast to conclusions).
Whaaatever, if you want me to repeat possible mates I'd tell you that it depends on what we want to bring to the team and seriously there are so many possibilities.
So, I could add to the pokemons I already mentionned Latias.
Indeed Latias does not fear much from the opposing team bar Ice Shard (does not hit hard enough especially if we invest more bulk, given that the speed tier isn't threatened).
So, basically we should be afraid of Megahorn, and guess what, if he locks himself into that, Gliscor starts a sweep.
For instance, a LO Latias, hits really hard enough to kill the stuff we would need to kill, and can take hits from Landorus, Ice Shard from Mamo, etc and kill anybody with Draco Meteor.
They will take a Steel if we take Latias, that's for sure but they are forced to take Skarmory or Bronzong.
Those two will have a HARD job taking HP Fire from Latias, Fire Blast from Hydreigon. Even max SpD SKarmory is 2HKO'd by HP Fire Latias.
Bronzong is not 2HKO by HP Fire but takes a ton and has no way to recover.
Moreover, by forcing them to pick those two steels, we will have an easy time sweeping with Keldeo and Substituting with Heatran.
The pressure on Rotom-W will be enormous, because he will have to switch in to Keldeo each time we switch him in. This situation is pretty good for us.
Okay, another possible pick.
I'm thinking about a pick able to pressure the Rotom-W because it's the supposed counter to Keldeo.
Let's say Skarmory/Bronzong are taken, we can imagine an Infernape with CC/OverHeat/HPIce and SR.
The idea is simple, when Nape is here, the best answer to this set is Rotom (tank decently the set) or Heracross (can come in on everything but OverHeat and outspeed). Heracross is fully countered by Gliscor (thus, this could justify my pick over Terrak) and Rotom-W can't take any damage because else, Keldeo will have a free way.
I bring Nape again, but I believe that his coverage is really fine, his speed tier also, being just what we need.
Given the opposing team's pokemons, we don't need to invest everything in Speed, and can invest heavier in Atk/SpA, making this set totally viable.
Indeed, I believe Nape only need 136 EVs in Speed to outspeed everybody.
Needless to say that Skarmory is OHKed (well Sturdy) and Bronzong take a ton (basically any other attack kills him).
Rotom-W can be 2HKO'd by CC, Landorus ousped and OHKed by HP Ice, Mamoswine OHKed, Kyurem-B can be OHK'd after Rocks.
The beauty of this possible nomination (that I personally love) is that we still have the possibility to put SR, and an INSANE offensive power.
Now let's say that we put Air Balloon (was your idea afterall) to Nape. Now the monkey can totally switch in on Mamoswine ! Meaning that in the worst case, he attack with Icycle Crash and deals around 50 % (I mean WORST case ever, because I don't see why Mamoswine would take this risk).
In the end, Nape is the new switch in to Mamoswine, he open holes for both Keldeo (we should focus on the pony he's the boss for now) and for Gliscor. On the top of this, nobody in the opposite team can switch in, not even the Steel supposed to wall Gliscor, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he can puts SR !
The issue with Nape is Gengar, but even him is killed by Overheat and he can't kill the Nape in one hit with Shadow Ball ! And of course, this means that the team 1 will have no SR.
Off topic, me criticizing everybody because I like it :>
I believe we made an enormous mistake by not picking a SR setter earlier like I proposed. Why ?
Because as the picks go by, our options are less numerous. We need the last picks to be as free as possible (SR already picked, maybe Spinner, etc) because the last picks should be the most important. Thus, we totally restricted our ability to take profit from the situation by picking fancy counters to few numbers of pokemons, when we could have leave them alone untill having a better overview.
Nape is one of the few offensive pokemons able to set SR, and the ONLY one able to set SR AND threaten Steel types.
TL;DR (not for you Shur, you MUST read it all -see I use more and more capital letters :>-) :
That being said, I vote for Remedy's Gliscor (damn you Mewtwo :|)
Even if I can see that it's being useless, my pretty little heart might be broken another time.
Okay, I really want to leave all this mess but ..
First, if you're translating things like that, I guess I'll be a dumbass all day. Basically there must be many people around you who are dumbass no ?
Because I just pointed out that it was pretty unfair to jump so fast to conclusions (and I mean it) and deny people's ideas this way.
Sorry Ganjalf for being a little off, because it's the vote and all, but I want to try to defend my pick, which I believe is totally fine, till the very end =)
Possible Mates :
This being cleared, it is true that I did not answer to your question.
Excuse me for that, but I have some reasons to explain my mistake :
- Pretty hard to answer to two different people talking to you without missing stuff
- I already mentionned numerous possible team mates for Gliscor (basically in the end of my nomination, but you did not read it so..) and in one of my other answers.
So once again I believe that you jumped to conclusions too fast maybe. And this, is totally different from taking your time or not, maybe you'll understand the shade of difference (you could take one day reading a post to understand it, and still jump too fast to conclusions).
Whaaatever, if you want me to repeat possible mates I'd tell you that it depends on what we want to bring to the team and seriously there are so many possibilities.
So, I could add to the pokemons I already mentionned Latias.
Indeed Latias does not fear much from the opposing team bar Ice Shard (does not hit hard enough especially if we invest more bulk, given that the speed tier isn't threatened).
So, basically we should be afraid of Megahorn, and guess what, if he locks himself into that, Gliscor starts a sweep.
For instance, a LO Latias, hits really hard enough to kill the stuff we would need to kill, and can take hits from Landorus, Ice Shard from Mamo, etc and kill anybody with Draco Meteor.
They will take a Steel if we take Latias, that's for sure but they are forced to take Skarmory or Bronzong.
Those two will have a HARD job taking HP Fire from Latias, Fire Blast from Hydreigon. Even max SpD SKarmory is 2HKO'd by HP Fire Latias.
Bronzong is not 2HKO by HP Fire but takes a ton and has no way to recover.
Moreover, by forcing them to pick those two steels, we will have an easy time sweeping with Keldeo and Substituting with Heatran.
The pressure on Rotom-W will be enormous, because he will have to switch in to Keldeo each time we switch him in. This situation is pretty good for us.
Okay, another possible pick.
I'm thinking about a pick able to pressure the Rotom-W because it's the supposed counter to Keldeo.
Let's say Skarmory/Bronzong are taken, we can imagine an Infernape with CC/OverHeat/HPIce and SR.
The idea is simple, when Nape is here, the best answer to this set is Rotom (tank decently the set) or Heracross (can come in on everything but OverHeat and outspeed). Heracross is fully countered by Gliscor (thus, this could justify my pick over Terrak) and Rotom-W can't take any damage because else, Keldeo will have a free way.
I bring Nape again, but I believe that his coverage is really fine, his speed tier also, being just what we need.
Given the opposing team's pokemons, we don't need to invest everything in Speed, and can invest heavier in Atk/SpA, making this set totally viable.
Indeed, I believe Nape only need 136 EVs in Speed to outspeed everybody.
Needless to say that Skarmory is OHKed (well Sturdy) and Bronzong take a ton (basically any other attack kills him).
Rotom-W can be 2HKO'd by CC, Landorus ousped and OHKed by HP Ice, Mamoswine OHKed, Kyurem-B can be OHK'd after Rocks.
The beauty of this possible nomination (that I personally love) is that we still have the possibility to put SR, and an INSANE offensive power.
Now let's say that we put Air Balloon (was your idea afterall) to Nape. Now the monkey can totally switch in on Mamoswine ! Meaning that in the worst case, he attack with Icycle Crash and deals around 50 % (I mean WORST case ever, because I don't see why Mamoswine would take this risk).
In the end, Nape is the new switch in to Mamoswine, he open holes for both Keldeo (we should focus on the pony he's the boss for now) and for Gliscor. On the top of this, nobody in the opposite team can switch in, not even the Steel supposed to wall Gliscor, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he can puts SR !
The issue with Nape is Gengar, but even him is killed by Overheat and he can't kill the Nape in one hit with Shadow Ball ! And of course, this means that the team 1 will have no SR.
Off topic, me criticizing everybody because I like it :>
I believe we made an enormous mistake by not picking a SR setter earlier like I proposed. Why ?
Because as the picks go by, our options are less numerous. We need the last picks to be as free as possible (SR already picked, maybe Spinner, etc) because the last picks should be the most important. Thus, we totally restricted our ability to take profit from the situation by picking fancy counters to few numbers of pokemons, when we could have leave them alone untill having a better overview.
Nape is one of the few offensive pokemons able to set SR, and the ONLY one able to set SR AND threaten Steel types.
TL;DR (not for you Shur, you MUST read it all -see I use more and more capital letters :>-) :
Pick Gliscor :
- force them to pick Steel and destroy them with Nape
- force them to give up SR and pick Gengar who will get crushed by everybody because the most valuable strengh of Gengar is to have multiple possible set, by knowing straight off if it's a Disable, Pain Split or w/e set, you make him terribly weak
- Or they can pick Aerodactyl, Keldeo will enjoy his ride and Gliscor can still win in the long term by setting up multiple SD
- force them to pick Steel and destroy them with Nape
- force them to give up SR and pick Gengar who will get crushed by everybody because the most valuable strengh of Gengar is to have multiple possible set, by knowing straight off if it's a Disable, Pain Split or w/e set, you make him terribly weak
- Or they can pick Aerodactyl, Keldeo will enjoy his ride and Gliscor can still win in the long term by setting up multiple SD
That being said, I vote for Remedy's Gliscor (damn you Mewtwo :|)
Even if I can see that it's being useless, my pretty little heart might be broken another time.
Melee Mewtwo
Terrakion is the only cleaner that lacks a hard counter that can easily shut it down.
Gliscor: Hard countered by Gengar/Skarm
Latios: Choice locked attacks can't clean teams. Easily Pursuit trapped by TTar/Scizor
Scizor: Hard countered by Heatran, Skarm, Gyarados, MAGNEZONE, etc.
Hitmontop: Hard countered by just about any physically bulky mon. Notable ones are Skarm and Deo-D (for the Spikes).
Kyurem-B: Hard countered by Scizor.
Terrakion: Countered by Slowbro, Gliscor, and Hippowdon. However he has a strong chance to OHKO Bro and Hippo with SR + Spikes. (and Gliscor just needs about 12% previous damage to have a strong risk of OHKO after SR)
Edit for Remedy: Ah, now I see why you disregarded Gengar earlier. I just want to point out that Mamoswine has SR on the set so Team 1 doesn't have to worry about that when making their counter pick. Thus why I claimed they have complete freedom in their final choice.
Terrakion is the only cleaner that lacks a hard counter that can easily shut it down.
Gliscor: Hard countered by Gengar/Skarm
Latios: Choice locked attacks can't clean teams. Easily Pursuit trapped by TTar/Scizor
Scizor: Hard countered by Heatran, Skarm, Gyarados, MAGNEZONE, etc.
Hitmontop: Hard countered by just about any physically bulky mon. Notable ones are Skarm and Deo-D (for the Spikes).
Kyurem-B: Hard countered by Scizor.
Terrakion: Countered by Slowbro, Gliscor, and Hippowdon. However he has a strong chance to OHKO Bro and Hippo with SR + Spikes. (and Gliscor just needs about 12% previous damage to have a strong risk of OHKO after SR)
Edit for Remedy: Ah, now I see why you disregarded Gengar earlier. I just want to point out that Mamoswine has SR on the set so Team 1 doesn't have to worry about that when making their counter pick. Thus why I claimed they have complete freedom in their final choice.
Melee Mewtwo
Second statement: Mehh, they aren't definite selections. I doubt Team 1 is going to run sand and Scizor may be the final choice, but I also doubt it. Scizor can't switch into a DM either unless it wants to get 2HKO'd. We also have 1 more pick to decide how to forgue that problem.
With that said, I am selecting your choice because Terrakion hits anything hard without setting up and gives Team 2 a physical attacker it direly needs. Plus, my choice isn't going to get selected so why waste a vote when i can use it for a pokemon with a chance of getting selected?
First statement: Understandable. If Latios DM's and kills something, the switch in gets a free turn since Lati will have to switch.
Second statement: Mehh, they aren't definite selections. I doubt Team 1 is going to run sand and Scizor may be the final choice, but I also doubt it. Scizor can't switch into a DM either unless it wants to get 2HKO'd. We also have 1 more pick to decide how to forgue that problem.
With that said, I am selecting your choice because Terrakion hits anything hard without setting up and gives Team 2 a physical attacker it direly needs. Plus, my choice isn't going to get selected so why waste a vote when i can use it for a pokemon with a chance of getting selected?
Guys read remedy's post. He has pointed out everything that I was trying (and failing) to do. Scizor Imo is an awful choice for team 1 atm as their team relys on rotom-w to take the fire moves way to much and that's their only keldeo counter too. Also I agree with remedy in the fact that we should have picked a hazard setter earlier as these final picks are the most important.
Melee Mewtwo out of ur counters to scizor gyarados is the only one that does well for them and cause a scizor counters Kyurem-B we're disregarding it? I think that's really unfair as a scizor won't really sweap our team. Gyarados can beat all the suggestions here bar Latios and my suggestion and beats all our other pokes too bad hydriegon a few times. Kyurem also loves hydriegon as it weakens/kills the pokes that beat Kyurem and as Kyurem out speeds their scarfer they're in trouble. Scizor also hasn't been chose yet and we have another pick that we can use for another poke that beats scizor if we really need one and a stealth rocker.
Melee Mewtwo out of ur counters to scizor gyarados is the only one that does well for them and cause a scizor counters Kyurem-B we're disregarding it? I think that's really unfair as a scizor won't really sweap our team. Gyarados can beat all the suggestions here bar Latios and my suggestion and beats all our other pokes too bad hydriegon a few times. Kyurem also loves hydriegon as it weakens/kills the pokes that beat Kyurem and as Kyurem out speeds their scarfer they're in trouble. Scizor also hasn't been chose yet and we have another pick that we can use for another poke that beats scizor if we really need one and a stealth rocker.
I still stand by the decision made to save the hazards setter as the final picks. Finding a counter with SR is something that is very easy to do. The main advantage in waiting is that it allows us to pick the setter that has the most opportunities to do its job. That was the beauty behind Deo-D in the last CtP as it could set up multiple layers very easily which made breaking down the other team's counters a significantly less difficult task.
As for Scizor, I stopped at him because Scizor+Rotom is the best Volt-Turn core in OU and amazing thing about that is that these cores are the hardest to counter since they are always hopping around into their counters to your counters. Pushing the opposing team into this core is very undesirable.
As for Scizor, I stopped at him because Scizor+Rotom is the best Volt-Turn core in OU and amazing thing about that is that these cores are the hardest to counter since they are always hopping around into their counters to your counters. Pushing the opposing team into this core is very undesirable.
If they fall for it that's there bad though. Scizor only brings a steel typing but gives a weakness to fire and rotom-W with dodgy recovery is being used as the single poke to counter 2 pokes that team 1 find as their biggest issues atm. Team 1 are very weak to any dragon that Mamoswine doesnt beat as steel types don't fit very well on their team. I just kinda think it's unfair ur saying a poke isn't that good because its countered by a poke which team 1 don't have and has doesn't fit well on team 1.
We have to look ahead into future picks. This is the major point in the Crackinskulls quote that I've referenced many times and can be found on the front page. If we pick X for Team A, Team B will be sure to pick Y if it counters X while threating Team A. Scizor is a solid counter and fits excellently into Team 1 as it gives it the infamous Scizor-Rotom core. It's weakness to Fire type attacks is a non-issue as Heatran, the only fire type, can't even switch-in easily as a Superpower/U-Turn will mean Heatran is KO'd/countered as soon as he comes in.
Bringing up, again, the importance in looking ahead I would like to express again my deep concern for picking Scizor. It fails to counter any of the new picks while being easily countered and TRAPPED by Magnezone who also traps Zong, Skarm, and Forry. (the only SR setting counters to Mamo/Hera) Losing our win condition so easily and our Mamo/Hera counters gives an immense advantage to Team 1. At least change your votes for Gliscor, Latios, or Terrakion as we really aren't doing Team 2 a favor with Scizor. (no offense Novaray, I'd just not like to see Team 2 be crippled so easily)
Bringing up, again, the importance in looking ahead I would like to express again my deep concern for picking Scizor. It fails to counter any of the new picks while being easily countered and TRAPPED by Magnezone who also traps Zong, Skarm, and Forry. (the only SR setting counters to Mamo/Hera) Losing our win condition so easily and our Mamo/Hera counters gives an immense advantage to Team 1. At least change your votes for Gliscor, Latios, or Terrakion as we really aren't doing Team 2 a favor with Scizor. (no offense Novaray, I'd just not like to see Team 2 be crippled so easily)
Melee Mewto
I see that everyone of the mobs have their flaws, and we need an immediate check to Heracross. I pick Remedy's Gliscor
Edit: Melee Mewtwo is right. Scizor is easily countered by Zone (doesn't have any way to run or deal damage). In hindsight, I probably should have picked the defensive variant of Hitmontop, as we could at least have run Toxic to fix the problems with defensive mons
Edit: Melee Mewtwo is right. Scizor is easily countered by Zone (doesn't have any way to run or deal damage). In hindsight, I probably should have picked the defensive variant of Hitmontop, as we could at least have run Toxic to fix the problems with defensive mons
I never said heatran was gonna switch into scizor but Kyurem won't win and I don't want to know how weak we'd be to gyarados if scizor was chosen. Although I don't feel this is the best pick I'm going to choose Melee Mewtwo's Terrakion cause it's Terrakion vs scizor and I think Terrakion will just be more useful and can actually beat team 1 with just 1 turn of setup. Who is scizor getting 2 turns of setup against?
I'm not too comfortable with Terakion as it doesn't have a sure fire way of KOing 3 of team one's members (Hera,Lando,Wash), which can KO back.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome the first guy to ever vote for me (every thread considered).
I shall not forget this day, and your name TyranitarAbuser.
We will proudly stand up against the mainstream and its hordes of fanatics. And even if Gliscor does not earn a place in the team, you definitely earned one in my heart.
Now, I want to underline, how powerful could be the Gliscor/Infernape combo that I described in my post (because I'm very proud of me, yes, yes :>).
EDIT : 2, now this is madness
I shall not forget this day, and your name TyranitarAbuser.
We will proudly stand up against the mainstream and its hordes of fanatics. And even if Gliscor does not earn a place in the team, you definitely earned one in my heart.
Now, I want to underline, how powerful could be the Gliscor/Infernape combo that I described in my post (because I'm very proud of me, yes, yes :>).
EDIT : 2, now this is madness
Novaray
Novaray
Remedy
Come on guys read Remedy's posts...
Come on guys read Remedy's posts...
