Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

[vyomov]

Problems with Rotom-W

Just a note, Gastrodon completely walls the set and in short you are relying on Pain Split and Will o wisp to beat gastrodon?
Another pokemon who can kill the set is Rotom-C who resists all and stabs back with Leaf Storm
Also, we are looking for counters to Terrakion as well: if it can't take a Close Combat on the switch like my suggestion(Whimsicott) then what's the point??
Nevertheless, Rotom-W does act as a good counter to Zapdos, so good idea there. However, my preference is for Whimsicott simply because Terra can then no longer sweep.

 

[G-Von]

Whimsicott @ Flame Orb
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 248 HP / 8 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- U-turn

This set, I believe has the potential to take a Terrakion and Zapdos at the same time without too many issues.
By Switcherooing a flame orb for choice band, whimsicott essentially negates terrakion for the whole game by reducing life time and making the attacks quite negligible.
Even if Terra switches out for Zapdos predicting the switch in, Flame Orb still makes it's mark, burning Zapdos and reducing the lifetime. Whimsicott is also faster and so can U-turn out after trading a Flame Orb on Zapdos for a suitable counter like discussed. Whimsicott can also do the following:
a) Switcheroo and burn Terrakion
b) Switch the Choice Band on Zapdos for leftovers, lock Zapdos and Sub Seed in the mean time
Whimsicott is strong enough with 248 HP to take a Close Combat from Terra before Switcherooing and rendering Terra useless.
For a calculation, after having taken one C.C and switching, Terra's CC does only 17%(Taking into account -1 from C.C)

Lets say Whimsicott gets in for free and uses Switcheroo, Terrakion will not get burned until after that turn is over. Therefore, this is the first calc:

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Whimsicott: 204-241 (62.96 - 74.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

After being burned, here is the next calc:

252 Atk burned Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Whimsicott: 102-120 (31.48 - 37.03%)

With SR factored in, Whimsicott is dead and has a minor chance at living without it. I like the creativity, but even I might have to admit that this set is a little too gimmicky to be chosen and used successfully in this project.

 

[vyomov]

Would also like to share this Calculation with regards to Choice Band Garchomp:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 343-406 (95.81 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
This is a problem because Ice Shard is priority and thus can hit hard.
I also applied the calculation to Landorus:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 348-421 (109.09 - 131.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is HUGE issue, so Garchomp is simply not an option. Even if we switch in Slowbro, team 2 predicting the switch can always set up with swords dance. A Swords Dance boosted Night Slash : 252 Atk Life Orb Swords Dance Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 377-447 (95.68 - 113.45%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
This is why Garchomp is a no go. We need a good counter for Weavile. This is why I advocate either my Whimsicott(can give Weavile Flame Orb to essentially ruin it) or a Jirachi set.
Conkeldurr is quite slow which may cause some issues regards priority(Ice Shard).
One pokemon ignored by most has been Multiscale Dragonite, who can actually take a hit from Weavile and kill it in stead.

 

[vyomov]

Lets say Whimsicott gets in for free and uses Switcheroo, Terrakion will not get burned until after that turn is over. Therefore, this is the first calc:

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Whimsicott: 204-241 (62.96 - 74.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

After being burned, here is the next calc:

252 Atk burned Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Whimsicott: 102-120 (31.48 - 37.03%)

With SR factored in, Whimsicott is dead and has a minor chance at living without it. I like the creativity, but even I might have to admit that this set is a little too gimmicky to be chosen and used successfully in this project.

Firstly, thanks for the feedback.
Secondly, I would like to bring to your notice Substitute.
Whimsicott can always use Substitute after the first close combat, letting Terrakion make itself fairly weak defensively and allowing it to take burn damage before switching out. Agreed, entry hazards are an issue, but in all due fairness we probably will need a spinner
Also, although called gimmicky, it is fairly common in the lower tiers and is quite successful.
Nevertheless, an option might be to change EVs to 252+Def, 252 HP and 4 Atk, allowing Whimsi to take a good hit or two :)

 

[Homeslice]

At this point Rotom-W would be a better choice for team 2 than team 1. It easily counters Landorus and Slowbro. With a few tweaks to the set, it'd be better for you to save that for next pick. Anywho, I want to give some more critique to other sets:
CB Metagross:
I'll be honest with you, Metagross is a pokemon I've always hated, because I think it's terrible. I personally think it's better suited for a UU environment, but especially not one here where niches are basically what drives picks. Metagross's niche is simply to counter locked Dragons. There's not one dragon so far in this CtP. While it can certainly hold it's own, the only reason I'd think to use Metagross other than to counter locked Dragons is to be an attacking SR lead, which is essentially useless in this kind of project whereas we know exactly how and why every single mon is being used. I wouldn't put my support behind any Metagross set at this point without being shown a larger amount of support and reasoning behind it.
Garchomp:
I don't mind Garchomp at all, it sort of brings a Sandstorm-like identity to team one. I do however have a problem with any set that isn't Yache, as stated before it causes a huge Ice weakness. Yache still isn't a solid answer either, but under the circumstances that Garchomp is just an absolute monster when it comes to sweeping effectively I'd be fine with seeing him chosen.
Whimsicott:
There's a reason Prankstermons aren't Top OU threats. They're generally bad. Whimsicott's whole strategy at this point is to trade a Flame Orb for something that locks it into U-Turn most likely, and it doesn't even get priority on it. It might be more useful later on where we know how many choiced mons there will be, but at this point I don't like it. Leech Seed isn't really as effective anymore without massive hazards either, as switching is extremely common and people will do it unless there's 3 layers of spikes and SR up without hesitation.
Edit: After posting this and noticing your Ice Shard concerns, I'd like to say the same about Whimsicott. Weavile is faster. Ice Shard will outbeat it, Choice Band Ice Shard is nothing to scoff at under any circumstances, especially not if you're a Grass type with a bulk of 60/85 defensively. I don't think I even need calcs to assume it's most likely close to, if not is, an OHKO.

Don't feel like saying much more on other sets, these are just the more recent ones that are in need of critique.

 

[Halcyon.]

Firstly, thanks for the feedback.
Secondly, I would like to bring to your notice Substitute.
Whimsicott can always use Substitute after the first close combat, letting Terrakion make itself fairly weak defensively and allowing it to take burn damage before switching out. Agreed, entry hazards are an issue, but in all due fairness we probably will need a spinner
Also, although called gimmicky, it is fairly common in the lower tiers and is quite successful.
Nevertheless, an option might be to change EVs to 252+Def, 252 HP and 4 Atk, allowing Whimsi to take a good hit or two :)

We need something that can tank more than one Banded Stone Edge. What's stopping Terrakion from Stone Edging your Whimsicott as we switch from Slowbro to Whims (assuming we use Slowbro to absorb any Terrakion hit) and then switching out as you Switcheroo your Flame Orb onto a Fire type or a Reuniclus or something? Nothing. Whimsicott can't reliably beat Terrakion since it can only tank one hit and Terrakion won't stay in long enough for you to burn it. My vote is still for YacheChomp, which is hard to counter since things like Mamoswine, Starmie, and Weavile (lacking Ice Punch, which, even if it has it, means it is completely walled by Slowbro anyway) can't OHKO, whereas Garchomp OHKOs all of them at +2. The point of this is to pick something that can't be easily countered and YacheChomp has the perfect balance between being hard to counter, putting offensive pressure on Team 2, and providing all-around utility to Team 1.

 

[vyomov]

Firstly, I do agree with a lot of people that Whimsicott may not be completely viable at this point simply because of a switch in to a fire type
I just want to point to out to Yache supporters that if Weavile Swords Dances on Garchomp when he switches in, this is the calc:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 335-398 (93.57 - 111.17%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
With Stealth Rock, that is a KO my friends, so we need to think carefully before deciding.
Just a parallel, this is the same calculation vs Multiscale Dragonite
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 335-398 (86.78 - 103.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
The damage is mitigated a little, which gives me hope, and if not for the fact that one person per set, I would have put up a Multiscale Dragonite set

 

[Halcyon.]

Firstly, I do agree with a lot of people that Whimsicott may not be completely viable at this point simply because of a switch in to a fire type
I just want to point to out to Yache supporters that if Weavile Swords Dances on Garchomp when he switches in, this is the calc:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 335-398 (93.57 - 111.17%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
With Stealth Rock, that is a KO my friends, so we need to think carefully before deciding.
Just a parallel, this is the same calculation vs Multiscale Dragonite
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 335-398 (86.78 - 103.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
The damage is mitigated a little, which gives me hope, and if not for the fact that one person per set, I would have put up a Multiscale Dragonite set

But that is a flawed argument because 1. Swords Dance Weavile isn't a very good pick since it has a hard time setting up and 2. Why would we switch into Weavile with Garchomp anyway? No, Weavile would have to come in on something either after Garchomp kills something or as he Swords Dances, can't OHKO YacheChomp, and is promptly KO'd, which takes out a huge threat to Team 1, assuming Team 2 does pick Weavile.

 

[TGMD]

My vote is still for YacheChomp, which is hard to counter since things like Mamoswine, Starmie, and Weavile (lacking Ice Punch, which, even if it has it, means it is completely walled by Slowbro anyway)

That's not entirely true. Weavile outspeeds both Landorus and Garchomp, even with an Adamant Nature, therefore it can just run Ice Punch over Ice Shard, freeing up a slot for Night Slash.

The damage is mitigated a little, which gives me hope, and if not for the fact that one person per set, I would have put up a Multiscale Dragonite set

I think you're missing the point, we're currently looking for a Rock resist to shut down Terrakion, there's no point in choosing Dragonite, a Pokemon that amplifies that Terrakion weakness.

 

[Halcyon.]

That's not entirely true. Weavile outspeeds both Landorus and Garchomp, even with an Adamant Nature, therefore it can just run Ice Punch over Ice Shard, freeing up a slot for Night Slash.

Yeah, that's true. I keep forgetting that Landorus isn't the Rock Polish set...

 

[Lolazo]

Raikou @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch

Raikou is a Good Choice For Team 2, Can Wall Zapdos and Is Faster Than Terrakion. Calm mind is the reason that why i choose Raikou over Jolteon, Without Calm Mind Raikou had problems for Beat Zapdos 1v1, Thunderbolt/Thunder the powerful STAB and Hp Ice the coverage on dragons,and Volt switch is a good move to escape their counters and can use for damage Terrakion and Go for Slowbro, Also can be used for doing a Volturn Core with landorus, The Rock Ressist can Be used for a Better Pokemon in Latter Choices of Pokemons

Damage calcs:

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 87-103 (27.1 - 32.08%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 83-98 (25.85 - 30.52%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 226+ SpD Zapdos: 112-133 (29.16 - 34.63%) -- possible 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 226+ SpD Zapdos: 169-199 (44.01 - 51.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 226+ SpD Zapdos: 225-265 (58.59 - 69.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 156-184 (48.14 - 56.79%) -- 88.67% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Raikou Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 115-136 (35.49 - 41.97%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 234-276 (72.22 - 85.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Raikou Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 172-204 (53.08 - 62.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Hitmonleet]

New set:

Latios @ brightpowder
Levitate
Relaxed nature
Evs: 130 HP 252 def 126 Satk
Psychic
Recover
Calm mind
Shadow Ball

This set is quite good as it only takes 40-48% damage from x-scissor or stone edge and takes about 24% damage from close combat. It can retaliate with 90-108% damage Psychic and a guarantied OHKO after 1 CM boost! Recover allows it to heal off more damage than any of Terrakion's attacks. Shadow Ball helps to give it good coverage.

 

[LilOu]

Reserving dragonite

Again, we are searching for a Rock-type resistance. Why would you chose Dragonite? We need something that can maintain offensive pressure while being capable of tanking Stone Edge from Banded Terrakion instead of choosing something weak to it.

 

[Hitmonleet]

EDIT: I have realized how bad dragonite is. I will change my set now.

 

[TGMD]

Draconite can do that and more.

No it can't, we want something that can take multiple Stone Edges, due to Dragonites Rock weakness it can't even switch in on Stone Edge because it dies on the next hit.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

Focus Blast's low accuracy means that you can be haxed out of OHKOing the Weavile and denting the Terrakion while they break your multiscale and proceed to finish you off (though Terrakion does have the possibility to miss SE. However, SE has a higher chance of hitting than Focus Blast).

Also, a gentle reminder that you cannot have slashes. That means you have to decide between Hurricane, Dragon Rush or ExtremeSpeed before the voting stage starts

 

[relaunched]

Probably the most viable choices we have right now of the ones given are:

-TGMD's BU Conkeldurr (bulk up, payback, drain punch, mach punch)
-alexwolf's Bulky Jirachi (u-turn, iron head, wish, thunder wave)
-Heist's Eclectic Jirachi (iron head, thunder, hp ground, icy wind)
-Melee Mewtwo's CB Swampert (stone edge, waterfall, earthquake, hammer arm)
-Halcyon Of Light's YacheChomp (swords dance, outrage, earthquake, fire fang)
-My CB Chomp (outrage, earthquake, fire fang, dragon claw)

The likely counterpicks to these, respectively, are:

-Gliscor, Landorus-T, Latias, Latios, Reuniclus
-Gastrodon, Ferrothorn
-Gastrodon, Ferrothorn
-Tangrowth
-Weavile
-Weavile

Really, I think we should eliminate Yache Chomp because the Yache Berry isn't a very useful item if they just counterpick with Ice Punch Weavile. Life Orb or even Leftovers are better choices for an SD Chomp's item, and if Halcyon of Light changed the item it might well be better than CB.

Right now I don't really love the Swampert choice, not just because it makes Tangrowth a problem, but because, as a slow Pokemon, it can't take many hits and will be killed off rather quickly. The fact that it does have a hard counter (thanks to Regenerator even Ice Punch isn't a problem) in Tangrowth only exacerbates this. Swampert's Speed and lack of recovery. It's a great Zapdos switch-in, but it can only do this so much.

Though it seems similar to Swampert, Conkeldurr is a choice I can get behind. With Leftovers and Drain Punch for recovery and no need to lock itself into a move, and the ability to set up, it has a lot of the things Swampert lacks. Landorus-T and Gliscor aren't troubling counterpicks as we have Slowbro. The Latis are a bigger problem, though they won't take a Payback well. Reuniclus is probably the best pick, as a CM Reuniclus can shrug off Paybacks easily enough, while TR variants can set up Trick Room and start crushing things. However, both of these still have flaws.

Both Jirachi sets are pretty neat, but the fact that Gastrodon is a pain in the ass to our other two members is unavoidable. On the other hand, Gastrodon can easily be dealt with using Grass-types. In particular, Celebi can do whatever it wants with its moveset, which means Gastrodon isn't the worst thing that can happen for Team 1.

Garchomp puts insane offensive pressure on the opponent, but unfortunately allows the opponent to do the same to us with a powerful Weavile counterpick. Once it's in, it can probably get a kill, but getting it in will be somewhat difficult.

Right now it seems to me that we should pick Jirachi. alexwolf's Jirachi is a good Zapdos switch-in, passes wishes, keeps the momentum with U-turn, and paraflinches very well. While Conkeldurr has a lot of great qualities as I mentioned, it makes our team rather weak to Zapdos, which could be a problem.

I do have a suggestion for Jirachi's moveset though, and that's Body Slam. Since Slowbro already has Thunder Wave to spread paralysis, Jirachi can dissuade Ground-type switch-ins like Gastrodon (A PROBLEM), with a 60% paralysis chance. Though the 60% chance isn't great normally, it's much more useful to hit Ground types since we already have 100% para move, and a few timely flinches can spell the end for even Gastrodon, as Heist mentioned. Gliscor also won't want to switch in to this Jirachi without activating its Toxic Orb as paralysis will totally cripple it.

Thoughts about this? Why isn't Jirachi a good choice? And is there a good reason to keep Thunder Wave on your Jirachi, alexwolf?

 

[Hitmonleet]

@relaunched, even though Gastrodon is a threat, Team 2 probably won't pick it as it doesn't keep the monteneum.

 

[futuresuperstar]

I still think Cobalion doesn't face most of these problems that every other suggestion thus far has faced. Cobalion doesn't care about Weavile, or priority in general, tanks Terrakion like nothing other, outspeeds all of Team 2, ensures a VoltTurn core, gives us Stealth Rock, gives us a mixed attacker, gives us a dragon-resist, takes minimal damage from Stealth Rock, and synergizes perfectly with Slowbro/Landorus-I. It also prevents a Tyranitar pick (which screws Slowbro), resists ice (rather than compounding our ice weakness), scouts...

 

[Homeslice]

Raikou Snip

While I love Raikou with all my heart, Raikou isn't really a good choice now. It doesn't give us a Rock resist we want, and doesn't have general utility to get over that. I don't think I could support it even after the calcs. It relies on CM a little too much for me, too.

 

[MMII]

Oh shoot, I just thought of dropping Ice Punch for Ice Beam (and a Brave nature) on Swampert. This lets it deal 50% to Tangrowth making it not such a great counter anymore. (although, it can still do the same thing Slowbro is going to do with Terrakion) However, this comes at the price of being Celebi and Latias weak. (or any other decently bulky grass type) At the same time, both of these are very Pursuit weak so maybe that won't be such a problem. What do you guys think?

 

[TGMD]

Oh shoot, I just thought of dropping Ice Punch for Ice Beam (and a Brave nature) on Swampert. This lets it deal 50% to Tangrowth making it not such a great counter anymore. (although, it can still do the same thing Slowbro is going to do with Terrakion) However, this comes at the price of being Celebi and Latias weak. (or any other decently bulky grass type) At the same time, both of these are very Pursuit weak so maybe that won't be such a problem. What do you guys think?

I wouldn't really call Celebi Pursuit weak because of Baton Pass etc. There's also the likes of Shaymin to be concerned about too. I would personally keep Ice Punch, especially if you think trapping is the best way to get rid of checks and couters, as there are ways of trapping Tangrowth too (Gothitelle etc.)

 

[relaunched]

@relaunched, even though Gastrodon is a threat, Team 2 probably won't pick it as it doesn't keep the monteneum.

This simply isn't true. Slowbro doesn't have a lot of momentum to it, but team one just picked it last round. Momentum isn't everything, and a pick that troubles all three members of the opponent's team is always going to be a good choice.

 

[vyomov]

Golurk?

Although I'm not allowed to post another set, I do feel that Golurk is an admirable counter to both Zapdos and Terrakion.
With the smogon OU set(http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/golurk/ou) and taking calculations, 0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 146-174 (38.21 - 45.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Terrakion has no good option vs Golurk:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Golurk: 109-129 (28.53 - 33.76%) -- possible 4HKO
In sharp contrast, Golurk has good options against both of these pokemon:
80 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 306-360 (94.44 - 111.11%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
80 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 192-226 (50 - 58.85%) -- 72.66% chance to 2HKO
This essentially means that Golurk can switch in on a Thunderbolt/Close Combat, set up SR and wreak havoc.
I think Golurk is a viable solution because Terrakion can do NOTHING against it and after a CC Golurk can switch in and sweep.
If Terra goes for Stone Edge after a defense decrease(via CC before Golurk switched in), 80 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 456-536 (140.74 - 165.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is why I claim Golurk is best: it has ready answers for both Zapdos and Terrakion, can freely switch in on Volt Switch, CC or Quick Attack and can prevent Zapdos from Roosting(EQ OHKOes if zapdos roosts)

 

[Neliel]

Back with this. it seems there are two pokemon that we havent already mentioned that does a good job against both stone edge and zapdos.

My main submission is:

Gastrodon (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Recover
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

This set its easily one of the best choice to counter both zapdos and stone edge's terrakion. Zapdos becomes now useless because it cant volt switch to maintain momentum and in general it cant touch it. Gastrodon is never 2koed by stone edge and has recover unlike swampert (which takes 35% by stone edge anyway) so it can stick around longer. I wouldnt even say its weak because afterall it has more special atk than starmie, a boosted surf its not that easy to take. Not to mention that earthpower+ice beam+surf hits basically everything not called ferrothorn or blissey, even grass types like breloom will die from a ice beam in the switch. The fact that it can switch moves also avoid it to be blocked by pillaring/protect and just does not force us to predict much. In general i think its a nice answer also for others thing, basically forcing the other team to not chose thundurus or keldeo which is huge.


The second one is:

Seismitoad (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 32 Def / 252 SAtk / 224 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power

This one may seem strange, and in fact it is. It shares the same typing of gastrodon basically doing the same things (does not have water absorb tough) but its a more offensive set than the other one. Yes it takes ridicolous damages from stone edge but i dont think this set is meant to switch on it, but setup a rain dance to clean. Even though it does not have an high attack, under rain hydro pump hits hard everything that does not resist it. Were hydro pump cant do the job, there is sludge bomb (yes it does not have ice beam) to hit grass types and the likes. Earthpower its a second stab that hits everything else just in case we need to hit a jirachi or a keldeo.