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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

Oh man I've missed a lot since the last time I checked into this forum. I feel like this voting period is going to be a really tough one since there has been many good, but not great suggestions. I am here to hopefully break the mold.

Bronzong.gif

Bronzong@Leftovers
EV's: 252 HP/252 SpD/4 Attk
Trait: Levitate
Sassy Nature
-Gyro Ball
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Confuse Ray

Lets start with some calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 133-156 (39.34 - 46.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 90-106 (26.62 - 31.36%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
152 SpA Jirachi Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 65-77 (19.23 - 22.78%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, Bronzong cannot be touched by any of Team 1's pokemon. It honestly cannot do much to Slowbro, but it can switch into anything Jirachi has to attack it with and Landorus can get confused and most likely be forced to switch out and still be able to avoid the 3HKO. Bronzong welcomes a paralysis or Icy Wind speed drop to maximize it's Gyro Ball power. The bell can also set up SR to support its team and help Terrakion net some kills it would normally struggle with possibly. Confuse Ray never misses, which is why I choose it over Hypnosis, and can put us in a favorable position. Having a SR-resist is nice since we have a SR-weak pokemon currently. Here is what 'Zong can do with it's attacks:

4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 132-156 (33.75 - 39.89%) -- 95.24% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (131 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 141-166 (44.2 - 52.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Suck Flowbro. I feel like our next pick can be something to deal with the pokemon with a deformed Shellder on its tail and the rest of Team 1 offensively.

BTW, sorry for the late post :[
 
ganj4lF said:
Conkeldurr may actually be a decent choice, but I don't like its general likelihood to fail and let Team 2 down. While it's true Jirachi can't do much to it, it's also true that a paralysis on the switch-in makes paraflinching Conkeldurr to death a viable solution for Team 1, and even if the odds of doing so are not incredibly high, it's still a possibility I'd rather avoid (Conkeldurr is 3HKO'd by Iron Head after taking a Thunder, with everything reasonable factored in - SR, Leftovers - and in my experience, that could be very well happen). Also, Landorus still deals an unhealthy amount of damage, so the only occasion to switch in which is relatively risk free is Slowbro. Your particular set is also subject to counterpick (bulky Psychics, like Reuniclus, wall it cold), however this is true for any pick I guess, so it's a weak argument. However, in my opinion, the opportunity of picking Rotom-W is very attractive compared to this one, since it immediately threatens things, and doesn't need to set up (while also taking hits better compared to Conkeldurr).

The voting phase will begin in a few hours. Make sure to submit your set if you didn't have the chance yet.
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Hmm, yeah, Paraflinching would be an issue. But, if Jirachi doesn't get one of those 3+ hits as a paraflinch, not only would Conk be able to regain health, it would be able to survive more turns of Iron Head, and possibly even KO back. You are right about Landy-I; unles it could be predicted, the next attacker could kill Conk.

However, when it comes to Rotom-W, it's only true advantage would be against Landy-I. Against Rachi, it still has the same issue as Conk, but it gets no advantage from the paralysis, whereas Conk does. Same thing with Slowbro.
 
Dakar said:
Hmm, yeah, Paraflinching would be an issue. But, if Jirachi doesn't get one of those 3+ hits as a paraflinch, not only would Conk be able to regain health, it would be able to survive more turns of Iron Head, and possibly even KO back. You are right about Landy-I; unles it could be predicted, the next attacker could kill Conk.

However, when it comes to Rotom-W, it's only true advantage would be against Landy-I. Against Rachi, it still has the same issue as Conk, but it gets no advantage from the paralysis, whereas Conk does. Same thing with Slowbro.
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A +1 (or Guts-boosted) Drain Punch just gives enough health to survive another Iron Head, and cannot KO Jirachi barring critical hits. Not really the best situation, since you're just praying to not be flinched to death... Even a +1 Guts Drain Punch cannot OHKO Jirachi, sure you would recover a lot and take less damage from Iron Head, but that implies TWO turns outside paraflinching, which is not something I'd call reliable at all.

Rotom-W, instead, takes 8.5% max from Iron Head, so it's very unlikely to be killed that way. True, Thunder 3HKOs after Rocks, but the odds of Thunder connecting three times outside rain are ~34%, while Rotom can just 2HKO with Hydro Pump or deal a good chunk with Volt Switch and go to Terrakion (or something else that can threaten Jirachi), which is very scary. Not to mention that Rotom-W fares immensely better against Lando (can switch into EP / HP Ice, take an attack and OHKO, while Conk cannot switch in on anything bar U-Turn if it want to survive) and Slowbro (Volt Switch deals 80% minimim, which is more than a +1 Guts-boosted Thunderpunch from your set for comparison, and it doesn't need to set up anything to do so).
 
ganj4lF said:
A +1 (or Guts-boosted) Drain Punch just gives enough health to survive another Iron Head, and cannot KO Jirachi barring critical hits. Not really the best situation, since you're just praying to not be flinched to death... Even a +1 Guts Drain Punch cannot OHKO Jirachi, sure you would recover a lot and take less damage from Iron Head, but that implies TWO turns outside paraflinching, which is not something I'd call reliable at all.

Rotom-W, instead, takes 8.5% max from Iron Head, so it's very unlikely to be killed that way. True, Thunder 3HKOs after Rocks, but the odds of Thunder connecting three times outside rain are ~34%, while Rotom can just 2HKO with Hydro Pump or deal a good chunk with Volt Switch and go to Terrakion (or something else that can threaten Jirachi), which is very scary. Not to mention that Rotom-W fares immensely better against Lando (can switch into EP / HP Ice, take an attack and OHKO, while Conk cannot switch in on anything bar U-Turn if it want to survive) and Slowbro (Volt Switch deals 80% minimim, which is more than a +1 Guts-boosted Thunderpunch from your set for comparison, and it doesn't need to set up anything to do so).
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Hmm, you have a great point there. But, depending on the Rotom set and the speed involved, if Jirachi is slower than Rotom and it Volt Switches on an Iron Head into Terrakion, that won't be pretty. Also, a Rotom pick would give team 1 a great pick in Celebi, which could Baton Pass boosts to Landy for a sweep. The only thing it has to worry about is Terrakion, but 9 times out of 10 it would be a switch-in, allowing it to possibly use a +2 Giga Drain. If we were to use Rotom, we should give it HP Bug to counter Celebi, in advance. Plus, bug is a great coverage move, and alongside HPump and VSwitch it could give coverage on things like Hydregion. Plus it could still carry TWave, WotW, OR Trick.

EDIT: Just looked at the two Rotom sets, and the Expert Belt Set covers everything I outlined in my post. The only change I would make there would be to switch HP Grass for HP Ice, since it allows Rotom to counter its counters (Grass types that resist Signal Beam).
 
i voted for seismitoad because this is ctp and we're all about countering pokemon, well seismitoad hard counters jirachi + slowbro and can live a landorus earth power with plenty of health to spare so that's nice as a secondary check to lando, especially if there's rocks up and zapdos is feeling pressured. rotom-w is too weak and dies too quickly for my liking, and i almost voted conkeldurr but ganj4lf's analysis about the jirachi vs conk matchup convinced me otherwise.
 
Which is also why Seismitoed is a such a terrible pick (no offense). It may be able to counter the other team's picks yet it fails to place any pressure itself which means the other team will have a field trip picking a counter to the frog that can apply massive amounts of pressure. Seriously, CrackinSkulls's post (which is quoted in the original post) explains excellently how this game should be played.
 
with all due respect i think you're dead wrong there, the possibility of scald burns plus toad's access to toxic gives it enough threat to switch-ins that it's not dead weight offensively, and earth power makes for a nice coverage 2hko on jirachi, which our team desperately needs right now. add that to the fact that we're also provided with stealth rock support that we need and previously lacked, and i'd say that seismitoad is the "perfect" pick for this stage in the game. you're entitled to your own opinion but that's my rationale.
 
I also have to disagree, Melee. In general, this project has historically favored outright offense over utility, and sometimes, that's just not the name of the game. That said, I'm happy to see that this round of CtP is leaning defensively. CrackinSkull's post is correct in many ways, but your interpretation of it is where I have to disagree. Applying pressure to the other team doesn't have to translate to coverage or power or speed. Seismitoad (while I didn't vote for it, myself) applies a ton of pressure on Team 1 by simply being nearly impossible to kill by half of Team 1, setting up Stealth Rock, applying a ton of pressure on Jirachi offensively, and deterring picks susceptible to Toxic.

In general, I feel that you have a far too linear-minded view about what the CtP "should be" rather than allowing yourself to sit and realize the potential that different methods of strategy bring. It may have been one way in the past, and having a viewpoint to help guide your picks is certainly a helpful notion--but being attached to that viewpoint at the expense of context and fluidity of the mind isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
I agree with Lavos right here, it's not the first time that a pick gets criticized "because it does not apply offensive pressure". It may not be a CB Terrakion, but you won't fill your team with those anyway.
Seismitoed got 2 offensive slots plus Toxic and Stealth Rock, if you think about it more, the pressure he applies is consistent. Don't consider it as a spike of damage, it's more like constant damage. On the top of that, I find your logic pretty unfair and not coherent with your previous posts. You were backing up the Slowbro pick (that you criticized for the same reasons the past CTP by the way) and he does apply the same kind of pressure, minus the SR. Getting SR as soon as possible is a good thing, and since he does fine against 3 pokemons and beat them all in 1v1 (or almost). I like those utility picks that still have great coverage and typing against the opposite team.

To be honest, I'd have supported an utility Chomp, like SR/Toxic/DragonTail/EQ or Surf/HPIce... :naughty:

EDIT : Ninja'd by someone with an weird avatar :(
 
I find instead that Starmie gives a greater utility to the team 2, and this is because it puts a lot of pressure and support thanks all'eliminamento of Entry Hazard that they play a role very unfavorable for Terrakion and Zapdos because they are put in field very often.
Then Zapdos helps Starmie with a good pressure to Jirachi where it can reach the "KO-Range" of Scald's Starmie (not forgetting also the secondary effect of the move that eases their work much more).
 
starmie loses flat out to jirachi and can't switch into landorus safely. all it does is provide a temporary check for slowbro and maybe scare off landorus once in a while? not very useful for our team overall and rapid spin isn't even necessary to be introduced until the other team actually has a hazard setter! i thought this was called "counter that pokemon"...
 
Lavos Spawn said:
i thought this was called "counter that pokemon"...
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I'd say this denomination is a bit misleading, we're keeping it mainly for "historical" reasons, I guess. I sorta agree with the rest of your (and other's) argument, though, especially the general part on defensive picks not being so bad as some users think.
 
Lavos Spawn said:
with all due respect i think you're dead wrong there, the possibility of scald burns plus toad's access to toxic gives it enough threat to switch-ins that it's not dead weight offensively, and earth power makes for a nice coverage 2hko on jirachi, which our team desperately needs right now. add that to the fact that we're also provided with stealth rock support that we need and previously lacked, and i'd say that seismitoad is the "perfect" pick for this stage in the game. you're entitled to your own opinion but that's my rationale.
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Status is still a lot easier to deal with than raw power. Something with Natural Cure like Celebi or Starmie can easily take advatange of Seismitoed to do whatever their set is meant to do. A Reuniclus can take avantage of him to TR and sweep. Poison Heal Breloom can setup a Sub to start flinging Focus Punches and get a free kill with Spore. Even something that has no defense against status can just apply such a massive amount of offensive pressure that the bit of extra passive damage won't be enough. Something like Latios or Hydreigon can use frogger each time it comes in to take kill. This is by no means the full list, just the ones that came off the top of my head. When I say pressure, I'm talking about the trouble the other team will have in finding counter picks and in playing against the set.

Remedy said:
I agree with Lavos right here, it's not the first time that a pick gets criticized "because it does not apply offensive pressure". It may not be a CB Terrakion, but you won't fill your team with those anyway.
Seismitoed got 2 offensive slots plus Toxic and Stealth Rock, if you think about it more, the pressure he applies is consistent. Don't consider it as a spike of damage, it's more like constant damage. On the top of that, I find your logic pretty unfair and not coherent with your previous posts. You were backing up the Slowbro pick (that you criticized for the same reasons the past CTP by the way) and he does apply the same kind of pressure, minus the SR. Getting SR as soon as possible is a good thing, and since he does fine against 3 pokemons and beat them all in 1v1 (or almost). I like those utility picks that still have great coverage and typing against the opposite team.
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Defensive picks are usually inferior because they are easier to counter. When you are forced into defensive picks by monsters like CB Terrakion (which is completely different than whenever you were suggesting some other Slowbro set for whatever it was supposed to be countering) you are stuck with choosing the best defensive pick you can find. (in this case, Slowbro) The only times I would consider defensive picks to be superior is when they provide Spikes (a lot of things get SR and it only takes one turn, it's not too pressing a matter) or when they wall an obnoxious portion of the opposing team. This simply isn't the case of Seis..blue frog guy who isn't the only one to be able to wall Jirachi and Slowbro and tank Landorus's attacks.

Edit: Exploit, yes. That is exactly the word I'm looking for here. Defensive picks are easier to exploit. Thanks relaunched.
 
I've got to agree with Melee Mewtwo here. A choice like Seismitoad or Gastrodon leaves us really weak to a few Grass-types, most notably Celebi, which isn't the kind of Pokemon you want to let the opponent use easily, as it can do whatever it wants. On the other hand, Rotom-W not only deals well with the whole opposing team, it also has excellent coverage which makes it very hard to wall. On the other hand, the Rotom-W attacker does good damage to almost everything in the tier, making it difficult to switch in to, plus it has Volt Switch to become a pain to what does come in on it. I have to agree that defensive choices aren't necessarily bad, but that the most important thing is to come up with picks that are as difficult to exploit as possible.

Also, if we do pick a Water/Ground type here, why Seismitoad over Gastrodon? It seems like Gastrodon's Recover and Ice Beam really help it a lot in this situation. Is getting a Stealth Rocker on this pick crucial enough to outweigh those positive attributes?
 
Before I start, I want to point out that I voted for EBelt Rotom-W. I don't really like many of the picks.

On to this defensive dispute.

What's wrong about a Pokemon that's easily exploitable? Sure, say the next pick is Celebi. Scizor, Heatran, and Volcarona are all counters. Not extremely hard counters, but counters. Celebi has so many weaknesses that literally almost half of the OU tier has a way to check it if nothing. Anything that moves faster and has strong STAB moves that Celebi is weak to can destroy it. Anything that resists Grass/Psychic is pretty much set too. Celebi can't cover all it's weaknesses in one moveset. It's insanely easy to counter, as are all Grass types. That's why Water types are abundant, half of them also get Ice Beam to deal with Grass types. I have no problem with Seismitoad or Gastrodon.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that there's a completely different type of strategy that could be going on here. Instead of outright using offensive pressure, you're using a Pokemon with some overall defensive utility that can easily lure an easily counterable pick that could end up being a larger liability than help. Look at it as a game of Chess. Sometimes in Chess, you have to make sacrifices to lure your opponent into a situation more favorable for you in order to achieve your overall goal, to win. Sometimes picks can provide a lure into a bad pick in order to put a team in a more favorable position, however the key point here is that a defensive pick has more overall upside than an offensive pick that can be countered just as easily. Defensive picks can wall other things than their counter, and usually have upside in Status or Hazards that give it general usefulness. I am, however, aware that sometimes this idea can not go as planned. So I guess to wrap it up, Defensive picks are sort of High Risk, High reward where not everything is lost if it goes well, and Offensive picks are safe picks that get you almost exactly what you see on paper and in practice.
 
Homeslice offensive Celebi is not easy at all to counter. Either a set of Leaf Storm / T-Wave / Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire or an NP set with NP / Giga Drain / Psychic / Earth Power or Baton Pass are not easy at all to counter. The only reliable counters to the first set in OU are Chansey and Blissey, while the second set is hard to wall as well and even has the potential to be uncounterable if using Baton Pass. We really should avoid giving chances to the opposing team to use one of the best Pokemon in the metagame.

Seismitoad will definitely come to bite us back later, giving free switches to many top tier threats in OU and having really lackluster offensive presence. In order for a defensive Pokemon to be useful in this project it must either be very difficult to set-up on (phazing), have a way to keep momentum (U-turn/Volt Switch or Regenerator), or lastly provide huge team support by capitalizing on the many switch-in opportunities it gets to greatly hinder the opposing team (Spikes). Seismitoad does nothing of those and will just become a sitting duck for the other team to abuse.
 
Also: Isn't Gastrodon just blatantly better than Seismitoed? Better HP, Sp.A, Sp.D, Recover, and arguably better ability? I literally don't see the point of voting for toad if Gastrodon is on the ballot as well. Unless there's something I'm missing?
 
Seismitoad gets Water Absorb and SR, which is probably why it's even on the radar.

EDIT: There's a small discussion about Seismitoad above this post, and that should probably be read.
 
Trinitrotoluene said:
Seismitoad gets Water Absorb and SR, which is probably why it's even on the radar.

EDIT: There's a small discussion about Seismitoad above this post, and that should probably be read.
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Well yes, but Gastrodon gets Recover to regain HP (which is far more reliable), and as the above poster has mentioned, it gets Storm Drain which is arguably better than Water Absorb; with +1 Special Attack, Gastrodon can actually hurt some things, whereas Seismitoad is just... ugh. I'm actually a little afraid of the possibility that team 2 might actually choose Seismitoad... I mean, there's a reason why it's NU :/
 
Melee Mewtwo said:
Which is also why Seismitoed is a such a terrible pick (no offense). It may be able to counter the other team's picks yet it fails to place any pressure itself which means the other team will have a field trip picking a counter to the frog that can apply massive amounts of pressure. Seriously, CrackinSkulls's post (which is quoted in the original post) explains excellently how this game should be played.
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Valid point, but remember we pick next. So, enough pressure may mean a weaker frog opponent...
 
Well, since we hit the usual 20ish votes in the first day I'll go ahead and stop the voting now.


  • Starmie: 1
  • Venomoth: 1
  • Kyurem-B: 1
  • Bronzong: 2
  • Seismitoad: 4
  • EBelt Rotom: 12 (TGMD voted in an earlier post)
  • Total Votes: 21


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So the newest member of Team 2 is
479-w.png

Rotom (Rotom-Wash) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Now we are moving on to the fourth pick of Team 2.
 
Hum, that's weird. I can add your vote to the results (although that won't change much). Are you getting my name right? I didn't see anything from you.
 
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