Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

[Nix_Hex]

10 Hours until voting time! I think we have enough nominations right now so I'd like to see some more posts like Pocket's and kiddu's that analyze one or multiple submissions and going into detail on why it would / wouldn't work. Include calcs and sound reasoning! Great work so far guys.

 

[kiddu]

One suggestion though - Psychic > Signal Beam. This makes even Rotom-W a shaky switch-in, as it will be 2HKOed by Psychic (so can only switch in once safely). HP Fire already 2HKOs Celebi anyways, and Celebi isn't a major problem for team 1, which is packing Metagross and Kyurem.

*high-five*

The funny thing is, I was hoping so much back during 2,5 voting that it would end up Breloom instead of Scizor, just so Psychic > HP Fire to do exactly that. The one problem I had with replacing Signal Beam with it, though, is that it leaves Celebi open to revenge kill, surviving the HP Fire and not only OHKOing with Giga Drain, but healing off the damage in the process (it also takes more of the pressure of dealing with Celebi off Kyurem, so it's more open to deal with the washer). But you're right, Psychic works as a solid deterrent to Rotom (especially post-Trick) while hitting Mamo & Ape hard, and if there's a consensus I'd have no issues changing it. I'd like to get some input from ginganinja in particular, since he's the one who'd have to use it if it got voted in.

 

[Electrolyte]

I think Deoxys-D is our best bet right now, because of it's ability to just fiddle with and destroy the exploits of most of team 2. It's massive SpDef allows it to take hits from all of Celebi, Heatran, and Rotom, while resisting most of Infernape. HP Fire losely handles Scizor and Mamosine, dealing considerable damage to both. Here's some in depth on matchups with Deo-D:

Celebi: Just Taunt the onion and watch it rip itself out of the ground in frustration as you either set up on it or whittle it down by spamming HP Fire. Just make sure it doesn't get to +2 and you don't get paralyzed. But hey, that's what Taunt is for, right?

Calcs:
252+ LO Giga Drain vs 236/0 Deoxys-D: 33-39% (3HKO)

Heatran: Taunt the lava monster, preventing it from burning, setting rocks, or phazing. Then set up on it, and quickly switch to Terrakion or Meloetta. Watch out for Lava Plume burns, they hurt, especially since you can't do anything back.

Calcs:
4 SpA Lava Plume vs 236/0 Deoxys-D: 24-29% (possible 4HKO)

Rotom-W: Watch out for Trick, and you'll be fine. Set up on this guy, or even Taunt the volt turn switch in, because there's nothing stopping you. If you're really crazy, you can even attack, because hey, Washing machines melt, don't they?

Calcs:
252 SpA Hydro Pump vs 236/0 Deoxys- 37-44% (3HKO, about 50% chance three Hydro Pumps will hit)
252 SpA Thunderbolt vs 236/0 Deoxys- 30-35% (3-4HKO)

Mamoswine: tough nut, because it's neutral to HP Fire and has massive attack. You can set up on this guy or attack, but be careful, because a crit could spell the end. Attacking is probably your safest bet, but it doesn't do enough to be a solid answer.

Calcs:
252 LO EQ vs 236/0 Deoxys: 47-55% (70% 2HKO)
252 LO Icicle Crash vs 236/0 Deoxys: 40-48%
88 SpA Fire Gem HP Fire vs 4/0 Mamoswine: 27-31%

Scizor: Get in for free, and you'll win, because Deoxys-D was really well ev'd. Banded U-Turn never OHKO's without prior damage, so nice job on that. HP Fire does a fuckton.

Calcs:
252+ CB U-Turn vs 236/0 Deoxys-D: 84-99% (2HKO)
88 SpA Fire Gem HP Fire vs 252/0 Scizor: 90-106% (37.5% OHKO)

Infernape: There really isn't anything you can do to this guy, but there isn't much it can do to you either. Set up on it, and make sure that Scizor isn't a threat later. That's about it.

Calcs:
4 SpA Overheat vs 236/0 Deoxys-D: 45-53% (4HKO)
252 Atk CC vs 236/0 Deoxys-D: 22-28% (4HKO)
252 Atk Stone Edge vs 236/0 Deoxys-D: 27-32% (4HKO)

Deoxys-D is the best choice imo right now. It's a great pivot, it's a great back up switch in to every team 2 pokemon, and can moderately handle all of team 2. Wil-o-wisp could be used to help deal with Mamoswine and Scizor, but then you don't win against Celebi. Still worth a shot though.

 

[alexwolf]

Deoxys-D is undeniably the best poke right now, as i said before, for 2 reasons. He counters our biggest threat, Infernape, and gets limitless opportunities to set-up Spikes, which will eat team 2 alive. He also beats 4 pokes of team 2 if it comes in for free (LO stalls Mamoswine and Infernape, slowly kills Celebi with HP Fire, and Taunting whenever necessary, and HP Fire kills Scizor), which is another plus!

With Deoxys-D in team 1, the battle is almost going to be unfair...

 

[kiddu]

Except it has issues with most of them, as that list above mentioned:

Celebi: if it gets +2 before you can switch in and Taunt (such as on the switch), you're done.

Heatran: you can't do any actual damage to it at all while it can cripple you with a Plume burn

Rotom-W: Trick. Just, Trick.

Mamoswine: The sheer power of that EQ forces you to continually recover or risk getting KOed. Yes, you win due to Life Orb recoil, but it cost you at least 8 of Recover's 16 PP, albeit less if you HP Fire for an early KO. But that brings me to...

Scizor: the fact you need Fire Gem to even have a chance at OHKO means there's no way it will without, so once it's gone Scizor can switch in on anything else, survive the HP Fire, and U-Turn out to something that can outspeed/prio for the KO before you can Recover. If done on a double-switch predicting Taunt on Celebi or Heatran, you may not even get all your Spikes out.

That means that everyone bar Infernape has ways to work around or cripple it, though even Infernape can potentially revenge a weakened one with Overheat. That's a big problem, especially when its raw damage output is so low.

...By the way, does anyone have a list of the OHKOs/2HKOs that those layers of Spikes help with? I'm on a portable at the moment, so I can't exactly check myself.

 

[alexwolf]

Except it has issues with most of them, as that list above mentioned:

Celebi: if it gets +2 before you can switch in and Taunt (such as on the switch), you're done.

That's why we have Kyurem and Metagross.

Heatran: you can't do any actual damage to it at all while it can cripple you with a Plume burn.

So setting up 3 layers of Spikes isn't a success? Ok.

Rotom-W: Trick. Just, Trick.

Again Kyurem and Terrakion can take the Trick. Hell even Deoxys-D can take it, and continue to set-up Spikes.

Mamoswine: The sheer power of that EQ forces you to continually recover or risk getting KOed. Yes, you win due to Life Orb recoil, but it cost you at least 8 of Recover's 16 PP, albeit less if you HP Fire for an early KO. But that brings me to...

You LO stall him simple as that. You can always get critted though, and this is why Deoxys-D should not be casually brought in against Mamo.

Scizor: the fact you need Fire Gem to even have a chance at OHKO means there's no way it will without, so once it's gone Scizor can switch in on anything else, survive the HP Fire, and U-Turn out to something that can outspeed/prio for the KO before you can Recover. If done on a double-switch predicting Taunt on Celebi or Heatran, you may not even get all your Spikes out.

Don't use HP Fire until you ohko Scizor, pretty simply no? Against anything else you are better of setting up Spikes anyway...

That means that everyone bar Infernape has ways to work around or cripple it, though even Infernape can potentially revenge a weakened one with Overheat. That's unacceptable, especially when its raw damage output is so low.

Let's see again how it is once again. Deoxys-D can come freely into Infernape and Heatran, 1/3 of the opponent's team. No you don't give a fuck about a burn, because you have Recover, and you can still easily LO stall Infernape, even burned. It can also come in after Rotom-W kills something with Hydro Pump, if Celebi uses any attacking move, against Mamo in a pinch, and finally in the case of a double switch he is always the winner, assuming SR is in play, so Scizor can get OHKOed. So yeah as you said, unacceptable...

...By the way, does anyone have a list of the OHKOs/2HKOs that those layers of Spikes help with? I'm on a portable at the moment, so I can't exactly check myself.

They help by constantly weakening every single poke except from Rotom-W in team 2, with all the switches that team 1 can force.

 

[ginganinja]

I'd like to get some input from ginganinja in particular, since he's the one who'd have to use it if it got voted in.

N/o but I don't want to see this simply because I will use whatever we end up with. Its not going to be "what ginganinja uses better" but rather, "what works best for the team". Don't get me wrong, im flattered you want my input, but as a team, I would rather we focus on what YOU (and the rest of the community) think is best for Team 1 in facing Team 2. SO yea basically, don't concern yourself with what I want (ignore the fact im captain, and pretend im just a 12 post n00b if you will), just focus on what works best on Team 1, and everything will sort itself out :)

In Regards to Starmie, Psychic vs Signal Beam is goin to be down to personal preference, what do you (and the rest of the community), consider the bigger threat, Rotom W, or Celebi. I would give you my opinion, but I don't want people to pick whatever I prefer, so ill shut up about it and ask for community input. What do you all think about Psychic vs Signal Beam on Starmie?

 

[kiddu]

N/o but I don't want to see this simply because I will use whatever we end up with. Its not going to be "what ginganinja uses better" but rather, "what works best for the team". Don't get me wrong, im flattered you want my input, but as a team, I would rather we focus on what YOU (and the rest of the community) think is best for Team 1 in facing Team 2. SO yea basically, don't concern yourself with what I want (ignore the fact im captain, and pretend im just a 12 post n00b if you will), just focus on what works best on Team 1, and everything will sort itself out :)

In Regards to Starmie, Psychic vs Signal Beam is goin to be down to personal preference, what do you (and the rest of the community), consider the bigger threat, Rotom W, or Celebi. I would give you my opinion, but I don't want people to pick whatever I prefer, so ill shut up about it and ask for community input. What do you all think about Psychic vs Signal Beam on Starmie?

Even someone with no posts can have a valid point...but that's not relevant here.

I wasn't going to base it solely on your opinion, if I gave that impression (that is, unless you were the only other person to chime in, which looks likely with all the other posters favoring the spiker instead). I wanted more people in general to give their opinion, and would go with whichever the majority decided. Wondering about yours specifically was more of a personal curiosity.

Personally I prefer Signal Beam since it removes its target outright instead of crippling it, and Rotom-W can outspeed to KO anyway while still scarfed. However, both have their ups and downs, and there's justifications for either one, hence the question.

You're probably right about the bandwagoning, though.

 

[ganj4lF]

kiddu, you're probably right on the fact I'm somewhat underestimating Starmie; it's an awesome pick that can work very well. My point was, however, that since you're forced to take ~35-40% damage (in some cases it may be less) to switch in, 10% to attack, and then you can be forced out by Rotom (yeah, you could have killed it already, but they won't let you do so that easily if we go Starmie), you can be brought down in two switch-ins, okay it's risky because it may give Thundurus the opportunity to set up but still, if Starmie goes down we are 6-0'd by Infernape. This means that Electrolyte can sac one or two pokes to happily corner Starmie to a point it can't counter Infernape anymore, then go to town with it on us. THis basically cannot happen with Deoxys; and, in the long run, Spikes would be much more for a threat compared to Starmie, since they deny to Electrolyte the freedom to switch around as we can do, gradually killing his team alone.

 

[Nix_Hex]

well I'm about an hour late so it's time to get this show on the road. After some very intense discussion we are ready to pick Team 1's final Pokemon! Here's the list:

pieguy13's Politoed

ginganinja's Conkeldurr

Electrolyte's Ferrothorn

ClubbingSealCub's Lucario

ganj4lF's Deoxys-D

Skore's Chandelure

kiddu's Starmie

==============================================================

ginga's Ferrothorn critique

HolyAvatar's Conkeldurr calcs

TempV1's enormous critiques on Conkeldurr, Deoxys-D, and Lucario

alexwolf's critiques on Ferro, Luke, Deo-D, and Conkeldurr

ganj4lF critiques Chandelure and Starmie

Pocket's critiques of a bunch of stuff

Electrolyte does detailed matchups on Deoxys-D against all of Team 2

Basically, read this and the previous page. All of the posts are very valuable and worth reading, and as we have seen from previous rounds, will influence your vote. Now it's time for the actual voting. Please vote for one submission. To vote, simply type the name of the poster in bold. For example, say I wanted to vote for ganj4lF's Deoxys-D. I would simply post ganj4lF. Please don't submit any more sets and don't complain about the submissions. I must say I am so proud of you guys. This entire round has been ripe with discussion and I really like what has come out of it. You have 24 hours. GO!

 

[ganj4lF]

ganj4lF

 

[Temp V1]

Ganj4lF

 

[Pocket]

kiddu

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

kiddu

 

[ginganinja]

ganj4lF

Lets get it

 

[Skore]

ganj4lF

 

[Electrolyte]

ganj4lf

 

[Me So Shiny]

ganj4lf

 

[alexwolf]

Ganj4lF

 

[G-Von]

kiddu

 

[kiddu]

kiddu

 

[pieguy13]

kiddu

 

[Bossness]

Ganj4lF

I dont know if i can really say this but, Rotom-W's Trick does not cripple Deoxys-D.
Turn 1: Trick, 1 layer of spikes(Assuming 1 vs 1, otherwise, Deoxys-D has already gotten a layer of spikes up)
Turn 2: 2 layers of spikes, Volt Switch(Deoxys-D is faster after being tricked the scarf so it will move first. This means that something will lose 18% of their HP)
Turn 3: 3 layer of spikes(since Deoxys is faster than everything)/Switch out(if Scizor is brought in).

 

[Zacchaeus]

ganj4lF

 

[Qwertyuiop]

ganj4lF