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Creative (and good) Movesets (READ THE OP FIRST)
- Thread starter sax king
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You're kind of missing the point of the set. This set isn't meant to function like other choiced attackers; it's specifically set up to abuse Doom Desire, a completely unique move competitively (future sight works more or less the same way but is far, far less powerful and thereby useless).
The idea is that Doom Desire is a monstrously powerful move when powered up by choice specs, and you know when it's coming. You can essentially force the opponent into a sort of checkmate position using it, where they're forced to lose a Pokemon no matter what they do.
For example, you send out Jirachi and have it use Doom Desire, then switch it out. Your opponent switches to a Pokemon that resists Doom Desire to avoid taking massive damage from it, but you put out a Pokemon that can KO the steel resist they send in (ideally something that can reliably KO wide range of threats like Salamence). So they're forced to make a choice; do they stay in and get killed by Salamence, or do they switch to a Pokemon that can't take Doom Desire as well and lose a Pokemon that way?
It takes a lot of planning and careful play to pull off but the payoff could be enormous. The fact that a lot of people have no freakin' clue how Doom Desire works can work in your advantage too.
Yeah, I used LO Rachi with Doom Desire back in the day and half the time it was the most broken mon ever. E.g. you Doom Desire, opponent switches, you U-turn and bring in something like Terrakion, opponent switches to Gliscor, who is immediately killed by Doom Desire (leaving them with no Terrakion counter).
Unfortunately, the other half of the time it did nothing. It's terrible against very offensive teams, but breaks stall like nothing else.
Unfortunately, the other half of the time it did nothing. It's terrible against very offensive teams, but breaks stall like nothing else.
Quite interesting actually, since with doom desire you can switch out, get unlocked from choice to try a new move and still wreck your opponent. However, Jirachi is weak to likes of heatran and one stab attack and Jirachi is as good as done. But then I'm new to competitive battling and I'm acting like a total tard right now saying things I actually have no clue about ;)Well, I've been toying around with the idea of a Choice Specs Jirachi recently, after I looked at a gen 4 analysis, and I was wondering what other people thought about it in gen 5. The on site analysis goes:
Jirachi @Choice Specs
Serene Grace
Modest - 224HP/ 252Sp. Atk/ 32 Spe
-Doom Desire
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic
-Trick
It's kind of interesting. Firstly, Doom Desire which is rarely used competively, is intriguing, though it's mechanics have changed since gen 4. Basically, DD is a 140 base power 100% accurate special Steel attack that strikes two turns after use, even once you switch out. Kind of cool, because if you switch rachi out, and force a switch with something else, then your opponent may well have to sac something when faced with a specs DD on top of the attack you choose that turn. Thunderbolt allows Jirachi to hit water types and alongside a reliable STAB psychic, provides relatively good coverage. Lastly, Trick cripples wally stuff as usual.
It's pretty unexpected and can work pretty well, but I was wondering if it's a bit gimmicky? Has anyone else tried a Specs set?
EDIT: Over a year on Smogon, and I've reached my 50th post. Woooo! :D
Theres this unconventional lucario set that is kinda creative but meh compared to usual swords dance stuff.
Lucario @ Muscle Band
Inner Focus
Adamant
4 HP / 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
- Hone Claws
- Hi Jump Kick
- Extremespeed
- Crunch/Ice Punch
You want to use Hone Claws 2-3 times to get a decent boost in accuracy and attack for Hi Jump Kick, because it is an insanely powerful BP 130 STAB attack and it would almost never miss with the accuracy boost from hone claws (Hi Jump kick does massive recoil if it misses). Added to that, the attack boost and muscle band make it stronger than ever. Extremespeed is priority, also boosted by hone claws and muscle band and ice punch gets the boosts as well and is just there for coverage.
that set is basically outclassed by using swords dance, a life orb, and close combat. you boost your attack further in one turn, don't have to worry about misses and your damage output is much higher with LO than muscle band. The only plus i can think of for muscle band is maybe bluffing a choice item.Quite interesting actually, since with doom desire you can switch out, get unlocked from choice to try a new move and still wreck your opponent. However, Jirachi is weak to likes of heatran and one stab attack and Jirachi is as good as done. But then I'm new to competitive battling and I'm acting like a total tard right now saying things I actually have no clue about ;)
Theres this unconventional lucario set that is kinda creative but meh compared to usual swords dance stuff.
Lucario @ Muscle Band
Inner Focus
Adamant
4 HP / 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
- Hone Claws
- Hi Jump Kick
- Extremespeed
- Crunch/Ice Punch
You want to use Hone Claws 2-3 times to get a decent boost in accuracy and attack for Hi Jump Kick, because it is an insanely powerful BP 130 STAB attack and it would almost never miss with the accuracy boost from hone claws (Hi Jump kick does massive recoil if it misses). Added to that, the attack boost and muscle band make it stronger than ever. Extremespeed is priority, also boosted by hone claws and muscle band and ice punch gets the boosts as well and is just there for coverage.
+2 Close Combat: 240 BP
+1 HJK: 195 BP
You end up with much more power on your STAB if you simply go with the standard SD set and your other attacks are obviously much more powerful. The Def and SpDef drops from Close Combat don't matter much as Lucario can only take 4x resisted attacks and your opponent can still switch in a Ghost-type on HJK, even if you have 100 Accuracy. There's also the problem of HJK being unreliable before you set up, while CC can be fired off with little worry about what the opponent switched in.
+1 HJK: 195 BP
You end up with much more power on your STAB if you simply go with the standard SD set and your other attacks are obviously much more powerful. The Def and SpDef drops from Close Combat don't matter much as Lucario can only take 4x resisted attacks and your opponent can still switch in a Ghost-type on HJK, even if you have 100 Accuracy. There's also the problem of HJK being unreliable before you set up, while CC can be fired off with little worry about what the opponent switched in.
I've been using Infernape for a while on some random teams, and one day I simply got tired by the amount of Pokemon that resist its STAB moves/can counter it. There's actually quite a bastard lot of them floating around at the moment: Latias, Latios, Jellicent, Slowbro, Starmie, Gyarados, Dragonite, Gastrodon, etc. The list goes on. Then I had a good look at these Pokemon. Practically all of them are completely crippled by Toxic! I basically used the standard 64 Atk / 194 SpA / 252 Spe EV spread, with Close Combat, Fire Blast, Toxic and a filler coverage move (this can vary, as one of the only Pokemon who doesn't care about Fire/Fighting moves and Toxic is Tentacruel, so EQ is actually an OK option). Generally I used U-Turn though, as EQ is pretty situational. Toxic completely screws over Infernape's counters, and can wear them down to the point where your other Pokemon can easily dispose of them.
Then, and keep in mind that at the moment this is only theorymon, I noticed that Infernape can quite cheerfully pull off an even more Toxic oriented set, similar to what many people call SubRoost, but which I now dub SubSlack (what an awesome name <3). Basically it functions, again, on the principle that Infernape quickly lures out Pokemon that are very susceptible to Toxic, and can actually proceed to stall them out! I was thinking this set:
Infernape @ Leftovers
Blaze / Timid
4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Slack Off
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
Steel-types, which are immune to Toxic, are easily dealt with by Infernape's STAB Flamethrower. The only exceptions to this rule that I can think of are Tentacruel and Heatran (both easily trappable by Dugtrio). It also helps that Infernape can Sub itself into Blaze range when it needs a nicely powerful Flamethrower. As Infernape also isn't weak to Stealth Rock, it can switch in and out more readily than Pokemon such as Moltres (or other Flying-types that use SubRoost, I'm more of a lower tier player so idk). I apologize if this is already a well-known strategy, but I've had fun with just slapping Toxic on an offensive LO Infernape; this set takes it to a whole other level :P
Then, and keep in mind that at the moment this is only theorymon, I noticed that Infernape can quite cheerfully pull off an even more Toxic oriented set, similar to what many people call SubRoost, but which I now dub SubSlack (what an awesome name <3). Basically it functions, again, on the principle that Infernape quickly lures out Pokemon that are very susceptible to Toxic, and can actually proceed to stall them out! I was thinking this set:
Infernape @ Leftovers
Blaze / Timid
4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Slack Off
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
Steel-types, which are immune to Toxic, are easily dealt with by Infernape's STAB Flamethrower. The only exceptions to this rule that I can think of are Tentacruel and Heatran (both easily trappable by Dugtrio). It also helps that Infernape can Sub itself into Blaze range when it needs a nicely powerful Flamethrower. As Infernape also isn't weak to Stealth Rock, it can switch in and out more readily than Pokemon such as Moltres (or other Flying-types that use SubRoost, I'm more of a lower tier player so idk). I apologize if this is already a well-known strategy, but I've had fun with just slapping Toxic on an offensive LO Infernape; this set takes it to a whole other level :P
annoying as anything electivire.
work up
ice punch
thunderbolt
brick break
rash + sp attack - sp defense
252 sp attack 40 attack 216 speed
work up boosts both stats plus is very uncommon on any pokemon so it will be a suprise. ice punch for grounds and grasses such as golurk and roserade.thunderbolt hits hard after a work up and can hit those annoying jellicent. brick break for ttar and rock/ground pokemon.
work up
ice punch
thunderbolt
brick break
rash + sp attack - sp defense
252 sp attack 40 attack 216 speed
work up boosts both stats plus is very uncommon on any pokemon so it will be a suprise. ice punch for grounds and grasses such as golurk and roserade.thunderbolt hits hard after a work up and can hit those annoying jellicent. brick break for ttar and rock/ground pokemon.
apolagy
pokemon online is wrong then, it listed work up on electivire's movepool and i tested it there
pokemon online is wrong then, it listed work up on electivire's movepool and i tested it there
No it's not a well known strategy primarily because Infernape has much better things to do than sub-slack. Not to mention it can't really pull it off; the key to sub-roosting stalling (Staraptor doesn't count, the substitue and roost aren't meant to stall anything) is having your substitute survive so you actually have time to pull off a Roost.
The problem with your set is that virtually nothing is going to be unable to break Nape's subs, so the way a scenario would work is like this:
Say you get in scott free some how. You use Toxic as the opponent switches in their counter.
You set up a substitute as they attack. Your sub is broken.
You set up a substitute as they attack again. Your sub is broken.
You set up a substitute as they attack. Your sub is broken.
You set up a substitute as they attack. Your sub is broken.
You can't set up any more substitutes and eat shit and die.
Basically, because your substitue always gets broken you never get a chance to actually slack off, so you never recover you HP from your substitutes and eventually fail miserably. This is only made worse if they switch out to something that isn't poisoned and can hit you harder. In short, such a set is completely non-functional.
However I am much more impressed with your realization that Toxic works beautifully on more offensive Infernape sets. I mean, who the hell sees that coming? They think they're perfectly safe sending in their Jellicent or Latias then BAM the thing is crippled! God I want to use that now, it's a brilliant idea. Suddenly getting past those annoyances just got a whole lot easier.
Yeah I agree with this. Infernape doesn't have the bulk to take hits under a sub.
Call me crazy because it gets roost, recover, wish, refresh, and sub to eliminate/avoid beign statused and recover hp, but this set is very suprising and helps make stall teams be more annoying and spread hazards at an effective pace
Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 28 SDef / 4 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Roar
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
The EV's give it a nice 300 def., 300 sp def., 363 hp, and 260 speed to outpseed neutral nature stoutland out of sand, dragonite with an adamant nature, mamoswine with a adamant nature, and other neutral base 80's!
Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 28 SDef / 4 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Roar
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
The EV's give it a nice 300 def., 300 sp def., 363 hp, and 260 speed to outpseed neutral nature stoutland out of sand, dragonite with an adamant nature, mamoswine with a adamant nature, and other neutral base 80's!
Why won't I lets say run this with with roost/recovery and refresh over sleep talk. Seriously I don't see what sleep talk has over instant HP recovery + status relief.
I thought the same thing initially, but i decided to try it out, and it worked
sometimes good sets suprise you
if you don't like it then don't use it
but it worked for me
and refresh recover roar dpulse is also viable obviosuly
sometimes good sets suprise you
if you don't like it then don't use it
but it worked for me
and refresh recover roar dpulse is also viable obviosuly
So. Recently I've been toying around with Latias, and I had this random idea. On Latias' Smogon analysis, there is both a defensive Support set, as well as a Life Orb tank set, which is more offensive. Anyway, I was wondering if Latias might be able to pull off a kind of Tinkerbell set like Celebi, combining it's defensive abilities with a bit of offensive muscle. I was thinking...
Latias @Life Orb/ Leftovers
Levitate
Timid - 4 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Surf
-Thunder Wave
-Recover
I'll firstly admit that I have NO idea about the EV spread. I think that 252 Speed Timid is necessary, as Latias doesn't want to give up it's awesome base 110 speed tier, allowing it to outpace the likes of Terrakion, Landorus and Thundurus-T (non-scarfed, of course). But then, you do have T-wave, so might it be possible to invest more in defence? Also, I was torn between 252 Special Attack and 252 HP. The Special Attack investment + Life orb means that Latias' attacks will hurt much more (especially Surf on the likes of Tyranitar and Scizor), but Latias' good bulk + Recover makes me tempted to go more defensive.
Anyway. I chose the attacks to basically give the best offensive potential, while at the same time providing Thunder Wave support, and having the longevity of Recover. Leftovers could be used, but I have the gut feeling that this set will work better if it's more offensively oriented (like Tinkerbell). That is, I think Life Orb to power up DM/ Surf would be better. Oh, and I chose Surf as Latias' auxillary attack mainly to for Tyranitar, while still being able to hit Scizor hard (which wouldn't be the case with Hidden Power [Fire]).
Going back to the alternate ideas I had on EV spreads, some others could be:
-252HP/ 252Spe/ 4Sp. Atk
-252HP/ 252Sp. Atk/ 4 Spe (or however much speed you need, rest in Special Attack)
Any thoughts on this?
Latias @Life Orb/ Leftovers
Levitate
Timid - 4 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Surf
-Thunder Wave
-Recover
I'll firstly admit that I have NO idea about the EV spread. I think that 252 Speed Timid is necessary, as Latias doesn't want to give up it's awesome base 110 speed tier, allowing it to outpace the likes of Terrakion, Landorus and Thundurus-T (non-scarfed, of course). But then, you do have T-wave, so might it be possible to invest more in defence? Also, I was torn between 252 Special Attack and 252 HP. The Special Attack investment + Life orb means that Latias' attacks will hurt much more (especially Surf on the likes of Tyranitar and Scizor), but Latias' good bulk + Recover makes me tempted to go more defensive.
Anyway. I chose the attacks to basically give the best offensive potential, while at the same time providing Thunder Wave support, and having the longevity of Recover. Leftovers could be used, but I have the gut feeling that this set will work better if it's more offensively oriented (like Tinkerbell). That is, I think Life Orb to power up DM/ Surf would be better. Oh, and I chose Surf as Latias' auxillary attack mainly to for Tyranitar, while still being able to hit Scizor hard (which wouldn't be the case with Hidden Power [Fire]).
Going back to the alternate ideas I had on EV spreads, some others could be:
-252HP/ 252Spe/ 4Sp. Atk
-252HP/ 252Sp. Atk/ 4 Spe (or however much speed you need, rest in Special Attack)
Any thoughts on this?
Yeah, the SubSlack set was only theorymon anyway... stupid idea. However, I urge you all to try out Toxic on the offensive sets, as I've used that extensively, and it really does work
Why Thunder Wave? Most things that will switch into Latias, like Ferrothorn, Scizor, Tyranitar, etc. Aren't really afraid of Thunder Wave (Expect maybe Jirachi...) You're much better off using Psycho Shift and a Flame Orb, since they all hate burn. At that point though, you just might be better off using Reuniclus.
Latias @Life Orb/ Leftovers
Levitate
Timid - 4 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Surf
-Thunder Wave
-Recover
Flame Orb on Latias ? With Life Orb ? You'll have to recover every two turns :(
Scarf T-Tar doesn't like Thunder Wave, and Scizor won't enjoy it too much. It has a 50% chance to incapacitate them for one turn, so...
That only happens 25% of the time, not 50%.
Scarf Tyranitar? Ok, but that's just one specific set. the Special Defensive mixed versions and the Choice Band sets tend to run speed lowering natures or don't invest fully in speed like the Choice Band. Also, ask yourself this: Would you rather have a Scizor burned or paralyzed? I don't know about you, but I would pick burn any day since they can get past paralysis with Bullet Bunch.
Scarf Tyranitar? Ok, but that's just one specific set. the Special Defensive mixed versions and the Choice Band sets tend to run speed lowering natures or don't invest fully in speed like the Choice Band. Also, ask yourself this: Would you rather have a Scizor burned or paralyzed? I don't know about you, but I would pick burn any day since they can get past paralysis with Bullet Bunch.
One thing that set has over a Recover+Refresh set is that Sleep Talk can give Roar +0 priority. With Latias's high Speed, you could potentially phaze out anything that could give you trouble before it even gets an attack off, racking up residual damage in the process.
Still, with the new Sleep mechanics, I don't think anything should be running Rest unless it either has Hydration to immediately remove the status or simply has no other option for recovery.
Someone used this set against me in a ladder match, and for some reason i instantly fell in love with it. The idea of sticking a choice scarf on Breloom had never even come to mind, and in all honesty in most situations I dont miss the power of CB or the ability to set up with SD. The only one that comes to mind is 2HKOing Tornadus-T on the switch with CB Low Sweep, but other than that this set comes in handy.
Breloom @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Low Sweep
- Mach Punch
- Spore
Breloom @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Low Sweep
- Mach Punch
- Spore
Wouldn't running stone edge over spore be more helpful while using a choice scarf?
This is an option, but remember, sleep, especially in this generation, is incredibly dangerous and in a fast passed game, may mean you just lost a pokemon. Also it is interesting to note that with rocks or some other bit of damage breloom can 2HKO kill off foes with even a resisted low sweep, even if they are faster due to the speed drop.
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