Metagame Cross Evolution

[dsm77773]

As much as I hate to double post, I have an important announcement:

Solgaleo and Lunala (as cross evolutions) suspect test
Until Monday 27th February you the community will be able to decide Solgaleo and Lunala's future as cross-evolutions. Both Solgaleo and Lunala have proven extremely resitrictive for the metagame, taking the roles of wallbreaker, sweeper and revenge killer all in one due to their huge speeds and attacking stats backed up by high powered STABs that break through defensive abilities such as Unaware and Fur Coat. More in-depth reasoning here.

How to vote in this suspect test:

• You have from Monday 20th of February until Monday 27th of February to vote. This is to leave some time for discussion before going onto the voting.
  
• Vote in this thread, providing reasoning, and if possible replays against human players proving your points. NO USELESS ONE-LINERS!!
• You are allowed to vote ban on one suspect, and do not ban on another (e.g. you can vote "Ban Solgaleo" and "Do not ban Lunala")

Here you have some sets for you to (ab)use:

Try out Solgaleo and Lunala

Lunala (Electabuzz) @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch / Ice Beam / Focus Blast
- Volt Switch / Ice Beam / Focus Blast

Lunala (Poygon2) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Conversion
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast / Thunderbolt

Solgaleo (Magmar) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Full Metal Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Splash
- Flare Blitz
- Sunsteel Strike
- Mach Punch

They're not by any means the only ones, though.
Should Solgaleo/Lunala as cross-evolutions be banned? Discuss!

 

[Dunfan]

Nice thing they're suspected.
But, honestly, i think we should ban Lunala, but not Solgaleo.

Fullmetal Body's main utility is to prevent Intimidate mons (such as Gligar X Gyarados, which is actually in almost every team) from lowering it's attack and stopping the sweep... except this, it's not really good.
Shadow Shield, on the other hand, is really nice, and give you a free time to setup.

Sure, Sunsteel Strike is neat, but on the other hand, Fur Coat is also scary.
Sadly (?) , Unaware is also nullified, for the best and the worst.

One of the main problem is that the stats Solgaleo gives are enormous, and the loss in defensive stats is somewhat filled with that enormous gain in HP...

Now, let's talk about the weaknesses of Solgaleo :
Unaware mons resisting Sunsteel Strike - Sunsteel Strike isn't an answer to everything.
Mons cross-evolving into Bibarel are nice against Sunsteel Strike... But it's not just Bibarel.
Clefable and Quagsire are also a great cross-evolutions ; Water, Steel, Fire and Electric mons can confirm.
Faster sweepers - Yeah, Solgaleo is nice... but unlike Lunala, Solgaleo fears the first hit it takes.
Nice thing for it, Solgaleo gives a really good speed stat, but it can hardly switch on a Pokemon that used a setup move.
Being KOed before setting up - Cross-evolution gives setup moves and coverage to Solgaleo. But it also gives Earthquake and stuff to a lot of other mons. And that's exactly what mons cross-evolving into Solgaleo fears.

... and probably some others i'm too lazy to think of.

Now, i may be wrong, but i really don't think we should ban Solgaleo
If there's a thing i'm sure, it's that Lunala is worth-banning.

 

[TimeZone]

Nice thing they're suspected.
But, honestly, i think we should ban Lunala, but not Solgaleo.

Fullmetal Body's main utility is to prevent Intimidate mons (such as Gligar X Gyarados, which is actually in almost every team) from lowering it's attack and stopping the sweep... except this, it's not really good.
Shadow Shield, on the other hand, is really nice, and give you a free time to setup.

Sure, Sunsteel Strike is neat, but on the other hand, Fur Coat is also scary.
Sadly (?) , Unaware is also nullified, for the best and the worst.

One of the main problem is that the stats Solgaleo gives are enormous, and the loss in defensive stats is somewhat filled with that enormous gain in HP...

Now, let's talk about the weaknesses of Solgaleo :
Unaware mons resisting Sunsteel Strike - Sunsteel Strike isn't an answer to everything.
Mons cross-evolving into Bibarel are nice against Sunsteel Strike... But it's not just Bibarel.
Clefable and Quagsire are also a great cross-evolutions ; Water, Steel, Fire and Electric mons can confirm.
Faster sweepers - Yeah, Solgaleo is nice... but unlike Lunala, Solgaleo fears the first hit it takes.
Nice thing for it, Solgaleo gives a really good speed stat, but it can hardly switch on a Pokemon that used a setup move.
Being KOed before setting up - Cross-evolution gives setup moves and coverage to Solgaleo. But it also gives Earthquake and stuff to a lot of other mons. And that's exactly what mons cross-evolving into Solgaleo fears.

... and probably some others i'm too lazy to think of.

Now, i may be wrong, but i really don't think we should ban Solgaleo
If there's a thing i'm sure, it's that Lunala is worth-banning.

Bruh, read my post from earlier. Sunsteel strike(solga)Single handedly invalides stall! Crossevo isn't only about hyper offense. As a matter of fact, Solga gives balance problems too. Only difference is balance at least have Checks against most solgas in the form of dedicated revenge killers such as MisdreavusxBreloom, Ditto, or as you suggested "Scarfers". On the otherhand, Stall has ZERO counters and result to absolutely absurd checks agasint solgaleo's Sunsteel strike + Coverage moves. And half the time, you don't even need your primary stab move.

Example: Magmar x Solgaleo Stats:159/203/33/184/43/153
Fire / Steel Typing
Ability: Full metal Body

I have yet to find a Pokemon(specifically stall or any team lacking a dedicated answer) that can take on MagmarxSolga after either BD or Splash consistently!
Between the coverage moves in Sunsteel Strike+Low Kick+Thunder Punch hits nearly everything that needs to be hit. "It's bulk is shitty lol" ok lol? That doesn't change the fact that once it gets the opportunity to set up, which it will, you're done for. That's unless you pack dedicated Revenge killers via priority or scarfers (Stall lacks both, and balance is p much forced into running priority/Scarfers).

+3 252 Atk Magmar Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Onix: 225-265 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+6 252 Atk Magmar Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Onix: 360-424 (84.9 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

110/170 physically, and honestly, this is probably as good as it can get.....

+3 252 Atk Magmar Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wailmer: 354-418 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes. WailmerxToxapex

Sidenote:If you're curious about the percentage without Spikes added, it's 18.8% to Ohko with just Stealth rock

+3 252 Atk Magmar Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wailmer: 338-398 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
WailmerxAvalugg (170/134 physically).

+3 252 Atk Magmar Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null: 406-478 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Low kick is actually 120bp, so in fact, this is an Guaranteed OHKO. Was too lazy to figure out how to change the weigh(it wouldn't allow me to change the bp manually BTW Lmao).

+3 252 Atk Magmar Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Type: Null: 304-358 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Marvel scale is ignored. And uh....low kick 2hko anyways too lmao.

Point is, Solgaleo has zero counters. It only has checks.

I do agree, that solgaleo's ability does somewhat holds it back(immunity to intimidate ain't that bad tbh :/). Which is why, I think instead of banning Solgaleo, maybe we should ban Sunsteel Strike. Without sunsteel strike, I believe Solgaleo might be more manageable for every playstyle(maybe, I'm not fully convinced myself yet).

Edit: Lunala's reasoning is obvious imo. I vote ban on Lunala. And I vote ban on Solgaleo as well. If banning Sun Steelstrike is not possible.

 

[CoolMan6001]

Attempting to tag dsm77773 so that he can update the OP with the fact that you can only use 2 moves from what you cross evolve into.

 

[dsm77773]

Attempting to tag dsm77773 so that he can update the OP with the fact that you can only use 2 moves from what you cross evolve into.

Original idea by Angry2
Approved for SM by The Immortal and scpinion

Cross Evolution

(a banner would be appreciated!)
​

One of the main aspects of Pokémon is evolving. Since the very beginning, back in RBY, we saw our Pokémon evolve to the next stage of what we call "evolutionary line". They give Pokémon new moves/abilities/typing and also stats! But what if we could cross these evolutionary lines? That's what you can do in this metagame!

You can switch it by nicknaming your mon the name of the line you want. It gives the new stats and access of a maximum of 2 moves from the evolutionary lines' movepool. Abilities are replaced by the final form abilities. If the evolution gets a new secondary typing, the cross-evolved Pokémon will get it too (or replace its old second type).

(bolded) Maybe it wasn't clear enough... I'll add a bullet point in "Mechanics" about the movepool of the cross-evolutions, huh.

 

[CoolMan6001]

(bolded) Maybe it wasn't clear enough... I'll add a bullet point in "Mechanics" about the movepool of the cross-evolutions, huh.

I am really sorry for not noticing that. A bullet point would definitely help that (and all the other people who don't notice that too)

 

[smellslikememe]

Yes ban holy sh!t... I will provide my reasons here. I believe that these evo's -

1) are broken. Their base stat totals go far beyond what we normally see. Folks, Porygon2 hits 795 base stat total, and its offensive stats are horrendously high. Combined with nice abilities in Shadow Shield/Full Metal Body, they can take pretty much any role you would like them to. Shadow Shield provides setup opportunities that these evo's otherwise wouldn't have and Full Metal Bodies allow physical Solgaleo evo's to take on one of the other terrifying 'mons in this metagame, namely Gligod, as well as being immune to other stat changes that would otherwise be problematic, such as Sticky Web or Parting Shot. Lunala evo's can hit crazy hard with Moongeist Beam, and Calm Mind sets are nigh unstoppable, besides from Chansey which is easily checked or pressured. Electabuzz in particular is able to pivot with Volt Switch incredibly well and gets access to BoltBeam. Simply put, these 'mons are ridiculously strong and should not be included in a metagame where they outclass >95% of the tier and in terms of BST outclass even the likes of Mega Rayquaza.
2) are centralizing. I don't feel as though I have to go through this in detail. Most teams that are unprepared are simply swept, and the fact that these evo's have very few checks in the first place means that the same few checks are going to be run on every team, making building a team around these evo's simple.
3) invalidate stall and balance. If you want to see why it invalidates stall, reference TimeZone's post. Stall, put simply, has NO way to answer for Solgaleo (and Lunala to some extent), and loses to any offensive team with a core that includes these evo's. Balance suffers as well, considering it's a playstyle centered on getting damage both residually and actively while pressuring your opponent. However, use TimeZone's calcs as a reference. ASIDE FROM MACH PUNCH OR STRONG PRIORITY, THERE IS NO WAY FOR BALANCE TO RELIABLY PRESSURE SOLGALEO OR LUNALA. Thus, bringing in the argument that these evo's are centralizing, balance teams are forced to prepare specific counters, thus threatening the team chemistry.
4) create an extremely unhealthy metagame. With all of the above points considered, we see that in a metagame where they are not banned, there will be a mostly offense oriented metagame that is full of Solgaleo/Lunala Evo's with teams looking mostly the same. We will also see that other playstyles will diminish almost completely. It will be a metagame almost entirely composed of them and their checks, which decreases usage of other mons and creates a much less diverse metagame.

With all of the above points put in consideration, I believe that both Solgaleo- and Lunala- evo's should be banned and shouldn't even be suspected in order to create a more healthy and diverse metagame.

~Stalest of memes, smellslikememe

 

[dsm77773]

Notice that the voting period has already started, even though I would've liked more discussion on Solgaleo/Lunala as of now.

 

[Dark Mage Ewan]

I could make a big post with calcs about Solgaleo and Lunala, but I don't think i need to.

Yeah they get paper-thin defenses. I mean, you can believe that but stuff like Lunala P2 with Shadow Shield and Solgaleo Dusclops both are still fairly bulky, P2 due to SS but still, it's enough for a Z-Coversion.

Lunala Electabuzz is strangely more manegeable for Stall/Balance since both Decidueye Chansey and Lunala P2 are immune to the Ghost + Fighting coverage and T-Bolt/Ice Beam don't hurt Chansey and P2 can set up on it. But P2 is another Lunala mon and Decidueye Chansey, while not awful, certainly falls closer to the "niche" side of things.

Solgaleo is fun, not nearly as broken on most things, but should it go? YEAH. No question, while the BD calcs are only there for stall, even regular scarf and band sets prove to be hard to manage and if it needs any sort of special coverage it can still run it with Sp.Atk over 180 IIRC, HP Ice for example to destroy Gligod. And if the problem is Magmar, while not as good, Torracat can fufill a similar niche for the Band/Scard sets, maybe even better since it has U-turn for mommentum.

Just Ban them, let's get this over quickly so we can actually move on to something more debatable like Gligar, Milotic or Type:Null.

 

[dsm77773]

Extending the suspect's deadline to Monday 6th of March due to the thread's lack of activity.

 

[Swaggy-G]

Why are people acting like the drop in defence matters at all with that massive HP boost?

 

[TimeZone]

Extending the suspect's deadline to Monday 6th of March due to the thread's lack of activity.

Well I mean, Cross-evolution doesn't attract a lot of attention just yet. That's probably why there's not much activity from new people. Aside from the People that have been playing cross-evolution since its release(or before the new forums at least).

 

[dsm77773]

Well I mean, Cross-evolution doesn't attract a lot of attention just yet. That's probably why there's not much activity from new people. Aside from the People that have been playing cross-evolution since its release(or before the new forums at least).

Note that voting period started on 20th February and since then there are only 2 votes.
Some people expressed their opinions on this thread but did not vote, so I want to give them a second and last chance.

 

[Ander228]

The only things that come close to Sol/Luna in terms of BST are Gard/Gallade and to a lesser extent Slaking. And their abilities don't even come near that of Sol/Luna. Also, Sol and Luna both get a 100 BP no downside STAB move which nullifies blocking abilities such as Unaware and enough Speed to get in at least 1 boost before running into trouble. Therefore I say Solgaleo and Lunala should be Banned.

 

[smellslikememe]

The only things that come close to Sol/Luna in terms of BST are Gard/Gallade and to a lesser extent Slaking.

Kind of nitpicking here, but Gyara and Milo have higher boosts by 60, with a total of 340.

~smellslikememe except he's stale

 

[smellslikememe]

For dsm's benefit, I've taken the opportunity to create a poll for voting on the suspect test results. If I'm missing anything, let me know.
http://www.strawpoll.me/12476872

~smellslikememe the best meme

lol sorry for the triple post dsm don't hurt me

 

[dsm77773]

[Gen 7 Cross Evolution Viability Rankings]
S Rank
S rank contains Pokémon that define a particular tier, being able to perform a role (or more) extremely well and lack glaring flaws which prevent them from being effective in said roles.
S+
Gligar x Gyarados aka Gligod
Magmar x Lunala/Solgaleo
Electabuzz x Lunala
Porygon2 x Lunala

S
Spritzee x Milotic

S-
Scyther x Breloom

A Rank
A rank Pokémon are excellent at what they do, but they may have some small flaws, such as a small dependence on team support or potential to give free turns, but they aren't outclassed by other Pokémon.
A+
Dragonite x Doublade
Type:Null x Milotic
Groudon-Primal aka Pdon
Gengar-Mega aka Mgar

A
Gligar x Persian A
Electabuzz x Solgaleo
Klang x Tsareena/Gallade
Type:Null x Toxapex
Tangela x Volcarona

A-
Clefable x Dusclops
Type:Null x Toxapex
Tangela x Chansey
Electabuzz x Vivillon
Magneton x Vivillon/Hydreigon/Flygon
Omanyte x Espeon

Bee Rank
Bee rank Pokémon are great at what they do, but also have some issues that prevent them from being higher, such as some dependence on team support or partial outclassing by A or S rank Pokémon, but this doesn't mean that they aren't good Pokémon.
Bee+
Wailmer x Toxapex
Salamence-Mega aka Megamence
Archen x Hitmonlee
Magmar x Serperior/Nidoking

Bee
Archen x Whimsicott
Tangela x Hariyama/Vaporeon/Sylveon/Dumbreon
Chansey x Chandelure
Porygon x Nidoking

Bee-
Spritzee x Chansey
Ho-oh :]
Cranidos x Whimsicott
Lairon x Dragonite
Porygon x Noivern
Fraxure x Gallade

C Rank
C rank is where Pokémon start becoming somewhat niche picks, as they often have heavy reliance on team support due to some annoying flaws and face serious competition from higher ranked Pokémon.
C+
Sableye-Mega
Dusclops x Reuniclus
Misdreavus x Delcatty/Lucario
Nosepass x Chansey
Type:Null x Gyarados
Tangela x Lucario
Ferroseed x Arcanine
Pumpkaboo-Super x Escavalier

C
Dusclops x Slaking
Chansey x Decidueye
Rhydon x Beedrill aka Critdon
Ditto aka Cancer

C-
Carvanha x Araquanid/Breloom
Tangela x Pelipper
Murkrow x Lucario

D Rank
D rank Pokémon are mediocre Pokémon that might be used for their small niches, but are better off not being used due to their inability to do much else; aside from their serious flaws, they are often highly outclassed by Pokémon of the higher ranks.
D+
Giratina [both formes]

D
Ferroseed x Avalugg
Wingull x Vivillon
Electabuzz x Golem-A

D-
Dwebble x Froslass

G Rank
Reserved for garbage 'mons that are without a doubt the most niche, unusable 'mons EVER. NO QUESTIONS. YOU BETTER THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU PUT HERE BECAUSE ANYTHING THAT GOES HERE IS ACTUAL GARBAGE.
Garbage
Sunkern/Magikarp/Feebas/Cosmog/Tyrogue/insert shitty bug type here x anything
Inner Focus Lairon x Dragonite
Dratini x Sylveon
Grimer-A x Weezing


If you're making a suggestion for ranking changes, do so in this format:

Pokemon x: current ranking -> proposed ranking
Provide a reason [Try using stats, how x fares in the current metagame, abilities, movepools, etc. as arguments. Provide calcs if you can.]

Please refrain from making suggestions without a reason. And suggestions that have reasons along the lines of "I used it and it was pretty good" will be ignored.

Example:
Gligar x Gyarados: no ranking -> S+ rank
Gligar x Gyarados is able to perform a variety of roles exceptionally well, including but not limited to stallbreaking, sweeping, and support. It fares well against a large portion of the metagame, and this is backed up by two decent abilities, excellent 140/190/129/80/145/86 stats, and an expansive movepool, thus it should be moved to the S+ rank.

P.S. someone enlighten me on how to make those little images of Pokemon appear next to their names. I see it on all the other viability threads ;]

Felt like it was about time this meta got updated viability rankings! Especially considering it just became official.
~smellslikealt but meme instead of alt

First of all, these are not official (yet) VR (proof: I did not participate).
Ok, with that said, they're actually not bad, good job! But I'd like to see some changes:

• Remove G-rank entirely, unless some unviable cross-evolution starts becoming popular or w/e (who tf runs Inner Focus Lairon x Drag)
  
• Bee Rank -> B rank, if you're attempting to make this serious, same with Ditto being also know as cancer
• Like in last gen I also think we should group base Pokémon e.g. Gligar (Gyarados, Persian-A, Hariyama...) to avoid making this a mess, think about how many potential viable cross-evos are there

some noms

Gengar should go down, I feel it's being overrated at A+. While it can destroy stall / balance defensive cores it can't trap as much as it would like especially with the recent surge of Ghost-types such as Doublade x Flygon and Chansey x Decidueye. Shed Shell is also now more common on Gengar-bait sets, and Roar and U-turn are all common moves especially since Type:Null is around and it is very influential. Not to mention it has trouble setting up a Sub or trapping more than one Pokémon on the opposing team since it has garbage bulk and it is often worn down to <50% in the process. Sets such as offensive trapper and bulky Hex are not viable here, so Gar is limited to Perish Song.

This was and it will be controversial but Primal Groudon should go to B+ rank:
Bee rank Pokémon are great at what they do (Pdon definitely is), but also have some issues that prevent them from being higher (NO RECOVERY), such as some dependence on team support or partial outclassing by A or S rank Pokémon (GLIGOD), but this doesn't mean that they aren't good Pokémon.
Offensive sets are far more dangerous but also face tough competition from Gligod's extreme versatility when it comes to offensive sets.

Move this down to A+ imo, while it can be very very difficult to answer it has some flaws (no Speed at all, weak initially, Taunt), it is also p one dimensional (the defensive set isn't half as good and it is much less needed when Sneasel is not around).

Not seeing Krabby x Araquanid anywhere. Place it somewhere in D, Band is decent but it needs a lot of support. Haven't tested Ninjask this gen

Rhydon x Gallade, Electabuzz x Greninja and Nidoking, and Magmar x Gallade are all missing. Porygon2 x Toucannon should be somewhere too (Boomburst + SF coverage).

Wingull x Vivillon (Seadra anyone?) EDIT @ below: Remove this it is not legal!
Dwebble x Froslass
Archen x Whimsicott
What do these do?

A TON of Type:Null sets are missing
EDIT: Weather sweepers too

PS: @smellslikememe: I use these sprites for VRs (and RMTs): http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/icon/[pokedex number].png e.g.:
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/icon/207.png
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/icon/386a.png
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/icon/094-m.png

@everyone: suspect results will come up tomorrow!

 

[DuoM2]

snip

Just a nitpick, but a few of those fusions are impossible, like Wingull Vivillon, Rhydon Sylveon, and so on. I think. Good post otherwise.

 

[Dark Mage Ewan]

Things to put on that VR:

-Bibarel Dwebble-> C-
It has serious troubles in the current meta, due to the high bulk some mons like Gyara Glig and Milo Sprit but it can still provide a solid niche as a physical set-up sweeper with a unmatched +4 in offensive stats. Other notablr Bibarel users like Mudbray or Gligar for example should also be noted somewhere.

-More Scyther options-> Mostly to B or B+
I refer to Excadrill, Crawdaunt, Wormadam-S, Escavalier and Bibarel like previously mentioned.

-Greninja Electabuzz-> B or B+
After Lunala is gone I think this becomes the prime revenge killer again, fast, versatile and can give momentum to teams with Volt Switch while distributing hazards, only real problem is Decidueye Chansey as Chandelure Chansey is dealt with by Cross Chop variants.

-Seadra Vivillon->B
Wingull can't cross into Vivillon, plus Seadra is probably better. Spamming +1 or even +2 Pumps, Hurricanes and Blizzards is really satisfying and not a lot of teams are ready to handle it.

-Espeon Omanyte->C+
It requires too much effort and while it is strong after a set up I would prefer people not get the idea that this is good without a decent amount of support.

Lurantis Munchlax->B+
Goddam forgot about Lurantis Munch. Definitelly a solid mon, altough it NEEDS the Pursuit support, it still has amazing set-up capability, amazing stats and semi-reliable recovery. Also decent support pull. BTW, I say it requires pursuit support for ghosts but it does have Payback, if they don't have Wisp to burn.

Also my TM sets:
-Sylveon Shieldon should probably be there somewhere in the C rank.

-Type:Null variants: Sylveon, Vaporeon, Quagsire (not mine). These are easily A rank or high B rank material. Plus Pelliper and Ninetales variants for weather teams.

-Jolteon Cutiefly probs to D, decent Set-up sweeper, it has a niche of luring out Vaponyx and killing with Energy Ball and then proceeding the sweep.

-Onyx Vaporeon, not mine but B sounds good (Edit: Actually A- is more likely since how great it is for stall and balance)

-Toxapex Driflloon to D, not as good as Wailmer or Type: Null but the typin is nice for some threats, has Defog and Wisp support, nad I think Haze too.

-Gallade Golbat, great versatile attacker/tank/cleric, so B- (?).

-Croconaw Tsareena to D-, it has had the niche of sorta handle Gyara Glig unlike the common Tsareena mons like Hakamo-o or Klang.

Edit: Minor Changes and Much
Edit 2: More D rank uses.

 

[smellslikememe]

Just a nitpick, but a few of those fusions are impossible, like Wingull Vivillon, Rhydon Sylveon, and so on. I think. Good post otherwise.

Shit I forgot to change the Wingull... Where was Rhydon x Sylveon though? I swear I never put that there....

 

[smellslikememe]

First of all, these are not official (yet) VR (proof: I did not participate).

• Like in last gen I also think we should group base Pokémon e.g. Gligar (Gyarados, Persian-A, Hariyama...) to avoid making this a mess, think about how many potential viable cross-evos are there

Gengar should go down, I feel it's being overrated at A+. While it can destroy stall / balance defensive cores it can't trap as much as it would like especially with the recent surge of Ghost-types such as Doublade x Flygon and Chansey x Decidueye. Shed Shell is also now more common on Gengar-bait sets, and Roar and U-turn are all common moves especially since Type:Null is around and it is very influential. Not to mention it has trouble setting up a Sub or trapping more than one Pokémon on the opposing team since it has garbage bulk and it is often worn down to <50% in the process. Sets such as offensive trapper and bulky Hex are not viable here, so Gar is limited to Perish Song.

This was and it will be controversial but Primal Groudon should go to B+ rank:
Bee rank Pokémon are great at what they do (Pdon definitely is), but also have some issues that prevent them from being higher (NO RECOVERY), such as some dependence on team support or partial outclassing by A or S rank Pokémon (GLIGOD), but this doesn't mean that they aren't good Pokémon.
Offensive sets are far more dangerous but also face tough competition from Gligod's extreme versatility when it comes to offensive sets.

Move this down to A+ imo, while it can be very very difficult to answer it has some flaws (no Speed at all, weak initially, Taunt), it is also p one dimensional (the defensive set isn't half as good and it is much less needed when Sneasel is not around).

Not seeing Krabby x Araquanid anywhere. Place it somewhere in D, Band is decent but it needs a lot of support. Haven't tested Ninjask this gen

Rhydon x Gallade, Electabuzz x Greninja and Nidoking, and Magmar x Gallade are all missing. Porygon2 x Toucannon should be somewhere too (Boomburst + SF coverage).

Wingull x Vivillon (Seadra anyone?) EDIT @ below: Remove this it is not legal!
Dwebble x Froslass
Archen x Whimsicott
What do these do?


PS: @smellslikememe: I use these sprites for VRs (and RMTs): http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/icon/[pokedex number].png e.g.:
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/icon/207.png
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/icon/386a.png
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/icon/094-m.png

@everyone: suspect results will come up tomorrow![/hide]

Alright alright... I'll change the Wingull Dx
In any case, I'm going to keep the separate crevos for now. Every evo has their niche, and it's strange to see Gligod in the same place as Persiangar. So for now I'll keep the evo's separate but I may change it later.

I'll definitely move Sprit and Gar down to A+ and B respectively, because I can see the point about them being one-dimensional and predictable, but Pdon has its own niche for being able to cancel out dangerous weather cores and such, as well as phasing quite a few Pokemon that Gligod for example wouldn't. I'll move it down to A- but B rank may be too low for it.
Also Archen x Whimsi has the niche of being a suicide lead with access to Prankster Rocks as well as Memento. It also has Taunt which can be used to shut down other potential leads.

Oh and thanks for the sprites :]

EDIT: Last time it was EG who did the viability rankings >:( at least i think lol
EDIT #2: LOL Inner Focus Dnite for Defog

~smellslikesteelbeams

 

[DuoM2]

Shit I forgot to change the Wingull... Where was Rhydon x Sylveon though? I swear I never put that there....

I could have sworn that I saw it, but looking at it again, I don't see it.

 

[TimeZone]

If we're going off base forms.

Munchlax----+> A- / B+ imo. It has some pretty neat sets it can abuse respectfully. Such as Bibarel with Simple + Curse + Aqua jet, Arcanine BellySpeed, Breloom PH SubSeed/Punch, And lurantis with Contrary Superpower. Hitmonlee x Munchlax ain't half bad either with Belly drum + Sitrus berry + Unburden. it just faces heavy competitions for a slot from other normal types(notable Type:null and Porygon2).

Dusclops ----> B-/ B imo. Its best sets(imo)are its defensive sets. Such as Clefable who grants Unaware(and magic guard), Recovery in soft-boiled, Potential Cleric in heal bell, and K-off if you find space for it(this applies to Reuniclus too). Then there's Reuniclus who also grants Recovery, and gives Regenerator(and magic guard/Overcoat lol) effectively making this set a bit harder to "Kill" for the opponent if you choose Regenerator. While also checking the same exact Pokemons Clefable does, but not in anyway superior to Clefable. Gallade Bulk up set is pretty legit too, having an immense 70/160/190 Bulk while also having a much above average Attack(160) and perfect coverage in Fighting/Ghost(aside from normal/Ghost types). Slaking is pure Gimmicky, I don't think Meme was serious when he was ranking it ;/ lol. Clops also has Haze(Reuniclus set could try this), and Wisp at its arsenal.

Chansey----> B imo. Chansey is Chansey still. But slightly better, only slightly. Decideye has niches and Chandelure has niches. Decideye's niche is bringing momentum in U-turn, while also granting Chansey to be untrappable. Chandelure Grants Wisp + Flash Fire that's randomly useful(Such as, Pdon support set switch in) and better overall bulk. both sets consist of Haze to act as secondary pseudo-Unaware user. But as said much earlier in one of my posts, it sacrifice not abusing Eviolite which does gives it better overall bulk over both sets.Other than that tho, Regular chansey (Eviolite) has no other real advantage over the two sets.

Porygon2-----> A imo. This thing can almost run anything. Rather it's Defensive or offensive, the question is, which do you prefer? Gardevoir is a nice defensive option. 115/120/155 Bulk with a monstrous 165 spatk is Always welcomed! Gardevoir also allows pory2 to keep Trace, while granting Wisp, Wish support, and Heal bell(potential Cleric), and potentially even a sweeper if you choose that route(this applies to almost all its defensive sets). Krookodile Is a pretty interesting set too. Moxie + Z-conversion + Power Trip is Lethal once its checks/counters are weakened enough. There's honestly over a dozen sets Porygon2 can respectfully abuse in its own rights.

I'll post more nominations later. Just need to get back to exploring Crossevo again. Took a little break and now I can't remember half the sets I used in crossevolution now lol.

Yes, I accidentally deleted literally all my teams :/ oh well.

 

[smellslikememe]

If we're going off base forms.

IDK about base formes yet, there are some evo's that completely outclass their counterparts that have a different evo. For example I don't want to group Dusclops x Clefable in the same place as Dusclops x Gallade (not saying that it's not viable, just outclassed)
Like I said to dsm, if enough people request it specifically, I'll change it, but until then I'll keep them as individual 'mons, because I don't think grouping base formes together actually represents the entire metagame.

Yes, I accidentally deleted literally all my teams :/ oh well.

Ayyy my brother
We can rebuild together :D

~s m e l l s l i k e m e m e

 

[TimeZone]

IDK about base formes yet, there are some evo's that completely outclass their counterparts that have a different evo. For example I don't want to group Dusclops x Clefable in the same place as Dusclops x Gallade (not saying that it's not viable, just outclassed)
Like I said to dsm, if enough people request it specifically, I'll change it, but until then I'll keep them as individual 'mons, because I don't think grouping base formes together actually represents the entire metagame.


Ayyy my brother
We can rebuild together :D

~s m e l l s l i k e m e m e

• Like in last gen I also think we should group base Pokémon e.g. Gligar (Gyarados, Persian-A, Hariyama...) to avoid making this a mess, think about how many potential viable cross-evos are there

^^^^^^ I don't see why we would change the VR list from Last gen tho? When it's much easier and cleaner to just simply list them from base forms.