Metagame Cross Evolution

[GrayJou]

Respectfully, one can't make a team without a ceruledge counter. Ghost secondary typing is really good offensive and defensively. It's really fast so it can run taunt to avoid receiving Toxic and Unaware recovery. Flash Fire gives inmunity to burn, more damage to Bitter Blade and one useful inmunity. It can also have weak armor and focus sash. It's really bulky.

Garganacl Dusclops can be kind of oppressive. In general, anytime garganacl can be not rock type it's great. It can make a very strong core with Chansey and Iron Defense sets can difficult the ability to just switch qwilfish or bisharp in

 

[Octosquid420]

Just got top 10 on the ladder with this team so I figured i’d do a little writeup on it!!

Gyarados (Gligar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Spikes
- Earthquake

9 out of 10 games this is your lead. Set up a layer of spikes or two, maybe knock off, and then U-turn out. Base 190 attack earthquake still hits like a truck without investment and will take kos you don’t think it will.



Tsareena (Bisharp) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn/High Jump Kick/Low Kick

The usual Bisharp tsareena set. Overall good utility with rapid spin and bulk, also hits like a truck. 4 speed evs to outspeed opposing Bisharp, especially useful if you have low kick or HJK to get an unexpected ko.



Garganacl (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Body Press
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

This thing is so evil LMAO. Ridiculously bulky on both sides and now with an actual HP stat and movepool, gargclops is here to ruin your day! Will-o-wisp to cripple physical attackers, salt cure for extra chip damage, and body press to do decent damage.



Clodsire (Dunsparce) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Coil
- Body Slam/Literally Any Physical Attack
- Roost

This thing answers so many different attackers it’s not even funny. Roost + Toxic allows you to outlast most pokemon and combined with coil and your choice of attacking move this thing can just win games on it’s own sometimes.



Hitmonlee (Qwilfish-Hisui) @ Red Card
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off/Crunch
- Barb Barrage/Poison Jab/Gunk Shot
- Mach Punch/Earthquake/Taunt

Once you’ve chipped down your opponent’s Pokemon, Qwilfish can very easily close out games with it’s base 180 attack and 137 speed. Red card + unburden allows qwilfish to create its own openings by switching in on resisted or weak moves, and it still hits really hard unboosted. You can also just lead this vs rain and win on the spot it they u-turn LOL



Vivillon (Electabuzz) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch

Once again the standard Electabuzz vivillon set I just needed something to do big damage HDUQDJWHDU you can definitely cut it for whatever special attacker you prefer!

Anyways heres the pokepaste go forth and become a menace on ladder >:3

https://pokepast.es/2d5dee7ac41696ea

 

[Imperator Romanum]

It took me a while to get around to writing my RMT, so I kept it saved my in my drafts which means I hadn't been able to post about anything else in the mean time. I'd like to remidy that by starting of a new point of discussion.

First, let me say that I've really enjoyed reading all of your posts, especially the #400 by Imw0rstadP0keM0n. I'm glad that both the ladder and forums have been so active. I hope as many as you chime in with suggestions.

I'd like to start a discussion on the Viability rankings, I'm not going to bothering making a complete list so I hope people chime in with their own suggestions.

S+ rank

(Gyarados, Milotic, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Chansey, Hariyama)

S

(Ceruledge, Clodsire, Hariyama, Hitmontop)

A+

(Tsareena, Lycanroc-Dusk, Hatterene, Blaziken, Tinkaton, Conkeldurr)
(Vivillon, Clefable)
(Samurott-Hisui)
(Clodsire, Chansey, Gyarados, Avalugg)
(Clefable, Hydreigon)
(Toxtricity, Noivern, Gholdengo)

A


(Ceruledge, Hariyama)
(Skeledirge, Clefable, Hatterene)
(Gyarados, Milotic)
(Cloyster)
(Vivillon)
(Clodsire, Toxapex, Milotic)
(Gholdengo, Milotic, Ninetales-A, etc.)
(Garganacl, Reuniclus, Corviknight)

A-

(Vivillon, Cinderace, Meowscarada)
(Toxapex, Slowking-Galar, Pelipper)
(Corviknight)
(Garganacl, Hatterene, Skeledirge)
(Ceruledge, Gyarados)

B+


(Breloom, Hitmonlee, Lycanroc-Dusk)



(Sunflora)
(Tsareena)
(Milotic, Skeledirge, Kommo-o, Clefable) Feel free to suggest roles, I haven't used it a lot.

B

(Breloom, Hariyama)
(Toxtricity, Hariyama)
(Toxtricity)
(Breloom)



I'm going to stop there, those are the mons I felt I had an opinion on/experience with. Feel free to chime in!

Hey, we started working on the VR collaboratively near the end of the last time CE was a ladder. If anyone would like to chime in with thoughts and spark a good discussion it’s there.

Also, if anyone would like to take over the VR please do, I don’t have the time to follow up. I love this meta, and it deserves a VR ran by someone with more capacity and care dedicated to it.

 

[GrayJou]

I think we should implement Nickname Reveal as not knowing if your oponent packs a basculegion, cloyster or hidden inmunity is really unfair. It goes away after you match with the people again in ladder but that shouldn't be the case imo.

I still consider Ceruledge Evolution to be pretty troublesome, leaving the types dark/ghost and normal/ghost with just one weakness. Fairies are just not good and very specific mons counter Qwilfish-Ceruledge after an sd which are unaware toxic mons, some fur coat foul play and gargclops with extremely dicey mind games with switches and priority.

On a lesser degree, I feel double unaware, more specifically Clodsire evolution, really hinders any setup. However, Clodsire is kinda necessary to control Ceru, which gives insane bulk, atk and speed. Toxic is very spammable, as steel types aren't as abundant and the ones that exist, don't have recovery.

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

Toxic is very spammable, as steel types aren't as abundant and the ones that exist, don't have recovery.

corviknight and bisharp moment

but yeah, I have advocated for Nickname Reveal before. Not sure if there's coding for it in PS though.

 

[GrayJou]

corviknight and bisharp moment

Bisharp doesn't fit every team and I can't recall the last time I saw a corviknight. It gives mere 130 BST.

It would be nice to have to have stats on abilities and mon usage as that could give a better metric on how much Unaware is necessary to check the same threats. Queueing is taking ages and when it doesn't, I find myself battling the same couple of players or some new 1000s, 1100s. I would say that very few players are managing to enjoy the tier and there a couple echo chambers saying that it's balanced and nothing should be banned. Ceruledge just allows me to go on a rampage after a swords dance while also being quite tanky and fast (135). The only stuff that outspeeds this mon dies to its own priority and isn't even guaranteed to OHKO it. I think the tier would be much better without Ceruledge

 

[Dark Koopatrol]

Hey, we started working on the VR collaboratively near the end of the last time CE was a ladder. If anyone would like to chime in with thoughts and spark a good discussion it’s there.

Also, if anyone would like to take over the VR please do, I don’t have the time to follow up. I love this meta, and it deserves a VR ran by someone with more capacity and care dedicated to it.

Hopefully we can make an official CE VR soon, but for now here's my personal VR:

S
(Tsareena, Tinkaton)
(Clodsire, Milotic, Gyarados, Hitmonlee, Ninetales-Alola, Hariyama)
(Ceruledge, Clodsire, Hariyama, Lokix)

A+
(Gardevoir, Clefable)
(Vivillon)
(Cloyster)
(Samurott-Hisui, Dragonite)
(Persian-Alola, Gyarados, Clodsire, Ninetales-Alola)

A
(Froslass)
(Garganacl, Corviknight, Chesnaught, Reuniclus)
(Vivillon)
(Gholdengo, Toxtricity)
(Leavanny, Vivillon)

(Hydreigon, Clefable)
(Gyarados, Quagsire, Avalugg, Persian-Alola)

A-
(Corviknight)
(Ceruledge, Lokix)
(Vivillon)
(Gholdengo, Breloom, Ninetales-A, Vaporeon)
(Clodsire, Slowking, Toxapex)
(Skeledirge, Kommo-o, Clefable, Gardevoir)
(Hatterene, Dragonite, Garganacl, Skeledirge)
(Hariyama, Ceruledge)

B+
(Araquanid, Barraskewda)
(Lokix)
(Lycanroc-Dusk, Breloom)

(Vivillon)

B
(Vaporeon)
(Breloom, Hitmonlee, Lycanroc-Dusk)
(Gyarados)
(Tsareena)
(Persian-Alola)



I would personally be opposed to implementing Nickname Reveal Clause. If you look at your opponent's team, you can usually get a good idea of what kind of sets they're running. If I see a Qwilfish on a stall team, I know that it's probably a Clodsire, and even if it isn't none of its other defensive sets are handled that differently. If I see it on a hyper offense team, it's probably a Ceruledge, and typical Ceruledge answers also work well for most of the other offensive sets it can run, and even when your counterplay is different for the different offensive sets it runs, you should be prepared to fight against any of the sets it can run, and once it gets sent out you know what you're facing. There's also some Pokémon that only really have one set that they can run, such as Electabuzz only running Vivillon sets. Even if you're surprised by a Pokémon that your opponent is running, you can only get surprised once, and you'll know what to expect in future games against that team.

Cloyster was mentioned as an example of a Pokémon that Nickname Reveal Clause would help with, but I think that it should be banned anyway. Mudbray Cloyster is not very common at all, but it is very powerful. Although it only has 130 Atk, it compensates for this with Shell Smash, the ability to run an Adamant nature, high BP attacks, and Ground/Ice coverage. After a single Shell Smash, Mudbray outspeeds almost the entire tier, can OHKO most offensive threats and will 2HKO them if they survive the first hit. Mudbray also has 90/150/75 bulk, which makes it very difficult to revenge kill, especially if screens are up. If screens are up, Mudbray even beats Magneton Hydreigon 1v1. The combination of Shell Smash and Mudbray's coverage also makes it difficult to handle defensively. Dusclops can deal with it, but it's inconsistent, especially if Mudbray has Substitute. The only reliable way to deal with it is with a Slowpoke, which only fits on Stall, and even then, depending on what set it runs, it can't afford to take much chip damage in order to deal with Mudbray.

I can see the appeal for banning Qwilfish Ceruledge, but I don't agree with it. Most physically defensive Pokémon that aren't weak to a move it runs can handle it in some capacity, though how well it does depends on the Pokémon. Vullaby, for example, hard walls even Taunt sets, and although Gligar loses 1v1, it can at least U-turn out into something that can deal with it, and it can guarantee chip before this with Earthquake. Non-Taunt sets don't have a very good chance at breaking well-constructed defensive cores. Dealing with it offensively is also completely manageable, though how you accomplish this depends on the team. For example, you can Volt Switch on it with Vivibuzz and send out your own Ceruledge to block Bitter Blade. Depending on the set, whether they read the switch, and whether you win the speed tie, you may or may not take it out with your own Ceruledge, but even if you don't, Ceruledge will be at too low HP to take on anything else. You were forced to trade your Ceruledge for theirs, but that's fine because that was something that you accepted when you built the team. Ceruledge's Speed is also not an issue because if you can't outspeed 135 speed, your team is very slow. I do admit that Ceruledge will somewhat frequently 6-0 teams, but that's not because it's broken. That's because your opponent is using a bad team that has 0 Ceruledge answers (I don't know why this is such a common building mistake). I can't comment much on Shadow Sneak sets since that's a very uncommon move that I don't have much experience facing, but I haven't had any issues with it when I have faced it.

Clodsire is definitely not broken. If you can't break past it, you just simply have an ineffective breaking core. Toxic is annoying, but that isn't a good reason to ban this, and most of the Pokémon that run Clodsire learn Toxic naturally anyway.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Hopefully we can make an official CE VR soon, but for now here's my personal VR:

S
(Tsareena, Tinkaton)
(Clodsire, Milotic, Gyarados, Hitmonlee, Ninetales-Alola, Hariyama)
(Ceruledge, Clodsire, Hariyama, Lokix)

A+
(Gardevoir, Clefable)
(Vivillon)
(Cloyster)
(Samurott-Hisui, Dragonite)
(Persian-Alola, Gyarados, Clodsire, Ninetales-Alola)

A
(Froslass)
(Garganacl, Corviknight, Chesnaught, Reuniclus)
(Vivillon)
(Gholdengo, Toxtricity)
(Leavanny, Vivillon)

(Hydreigon, Clefable)
(Gyarados, Quagsire, Avalugg, Persian-Alola)

A-
(Corviknight)
(Ceruledge, Lokix)
(Vivillon)
(Gholdengo, Breloom, Ninetales-A, Vaporeon)
(Clodsire, Slowking, Toxapex)
(Hatterene, Dragonite, Garganacl, Skeledirge)
(Hariyama, Ceruledge)

B+
(Araquanid, Barraskewda)
(Gyarados)
(Lokix)
(Lycanroc-Dusk, Breloom)

(Vivillon)

B
(Vaporeon)
(Breloom, Hitmonlee, Lycanroc-Dusk)
(Tsareena)
(Skeledirge)
(Persian-Alola)



I would personally be opposed to implementing Nickname Reveal Clause. If you look at your opponent's team, you can usually get a good idea of what kind of sets they're running. If I see a Qwilfish on a stall team, I know that it's probably a Clodsire, and even if it isn't none of its other defensive sets are handled that differently. If I see it on a hyper offense team, it's probably a Ceruledge, and typical Ceruledge answers also work well for most of the other offensive sets it can run, and even when your counterplay is different for the different offensive sets it runs, you should be prepared to fight against any of the sets it can run, and once it gets sent out you know what you're facing. There's also some Pokémon that only really have one set that they can run, such as Electabuzz only running Vivillon sets. Even if you're surprised by a Pokémon that your opponent is running, you can only get surprised once, and you'll know what to expect in future games against that team.

Cloyster was mentioned as an example of a Pokémon that Nickname Reveal Clause would help with, but I think that it should be banned anyway. Mudbray Cloyster is not very common at all, but it is very powerful. Although it only has 130 Atk, it compensates for this with Shell Smash, the ability to run an Adamant nature, high BP attacks, and Ground/Ice coverage. After a single Shell Smash, Mudbray outspeeds almost the entire tier, can OHKO most offensive threats and will 2HKO them if they survive the first hit. Mudbray also has 90/150/75 bulk, which makes it very difficult to revenge kill, especially if screens are up. If screens are up, Mudbray even beats Magneton Hydreigon 1v1. The combination of Shell Smash and Mudbray's coverage also makes it difficult to handle defensively. Dusclops can deal with it, but it's inconsistent, especially if Mudbray has Substitute. The only reliable way to deal with it is with a Slowpoke, which only fits on Stall, and even then, depending on what set it runs, it can't afford to take much chip damage in order to deal with Mudbray.

I can see the appeal for banning Qwilfish Ceruledge, but I don't agree with it. Most physically defensive Pokémon that aren't weak to a move it runs can handle it in some capacity, though how well it does depends on the Pokémon. Vullaby, for example, hard walls even Taunt sets, and although Gligar loses 1v1, it can at least U-turn out into something that can deal with it, and it can guarantee chip before this with Earthquake. Non-Taunt sets don't have a very good chance at breaking well-constructed defensive cores. Dealing with it offensively is also completely manageable, though how you accomplish this depends on the team. For example, you can Volt Switch on it with Vivibuzz and send out your own Ceruledge to block Bitter Blade. Depending on the set, whether they read the switch, and whether you win the speed tie, you may or may not take it out with your own Ceruledge, but even if you don't, Ceruledge will be at too low HP to take on anything else. You were forced to trade your Ceruledge for theirs, but that's fine because that was something that you accepted when you built the team. Ceruledge's Speed is also not an issue because if you can't outspeed 135 speed, your team is very slow. I do admit that Ceruledge will somewhat frequently 6-0 teams, but that's not because it's broken. That's because your opponent is using a bad team that has 0 Ceruledge answers (I don't know why this is such a common building mistake). I can't comment much on Shadow Sneak sets since that's a very uncommon move that I don't have much experience facing, but I haven't had any issues with it when I have faced it.

Clodsire is definitely not broken. If you can't break past it, you just simply have an ineffective breaking core. Toxic is annoying, but that isn't a good reason to ban this, and most of the Pokémon that run Clodsire learn Toxic naturally anyway.

I agree with all points made here.

Cloyster is probably the most suspect mon in the tier right now, if it’s not Mudbray then Gligar can run the exact same set to the same effect. Max defence Gyarados Slowpoke and Dusclops is the only way to answer it somewhat consistently - but even then you’re only a little bit of chip away from losing. Shell smash with the best offensive duel stab in the game, along with great power and solid bulk, is wild. It hits too hard for defensive counter play, while being fast & bulky enough to keep pace with offence.

Qwilfish-H is great, amazing even, but it’s not as problematic imo. There’s plenty of defensive counterplay. Vullaby shuts it down completely. As DK says, 135 isn’t all that crazy in this tier either.

 

[PQRDG]

Really liking the VR here, would just like to suggest adding Luxray to Bisharp and Serperior to Magmar. The only other meta-relevant evos that are missing here that I can think of are Chansey/Hatterene and Murkrow/Gyarados, and maybe Dunsparce/Clodsire for a return to the classics. Other than that I think that covers a lot of our bases.

I will say I am surprised to see Bisharp ranked higher than Gligar, the weaknesses to Fighting and Ground often makes its Steel typing hurt more than it helps. Other than that I more or less agree with all of the listings in this VR at this time.

 

[GrayJou]

I would personally be opposed to implementing Nickname Reveal Clause. If you look at your opponent's team, you can usually get a good idea of what kind of sets they're running.

So because you might be able to guess, it shouldn't be? Other than that, why would it be bad for the metagame ?

Even if you're surprised by a Pokémon that your opponent is running, you can only get surprised once, and you'll know what to expect in future games against that team

Is it really on the spirit of the ladder to keep track of the different teams people are running at the moment, being so that ladder alternate players and players alternate teams ?

Dealing with it offensively is also completely manageable, though how you accomplish this depends on the team. For example, you can Volt Switch on it with Vivibuzz and send out your own Ceruledge to block Bitter Blade. Depending on the set, whether they read the switch, and whether you win the speed tie, you may or may not take it out with your own Ceruledge, but even if you don't,

That's really easy to predict, to be completely honest. Ceru player will just click crunch after SD and then if your ceruledge survives, then loses the tie, you can pretty much say gg if you are running an ofensive team. I'd rather ask why a tier with ceruledge is better than one without it. Vullaby sure does counter it as well as clodsire, but then, not running unaware or vullaby becomes imposible with the mon on the tier.

That's because your opponent is using a bad team that has 0 Ceruledge answers (I don't know why this is such a common building mistake). I can't comment much on Shadow Sneak sets since that's a very uncommon move that I don't have much experience facing, but I haven't had any issues with it when I have faced it.

In general building, you can't have an answer for every mon and that's okay, bad matchups exist. However, there is a problem when not having a ceruledge answer leads to an automatic loss. You could say teambuilding issue but then, why is everyone forced to have an unaware mon or vullaby to deal with Ceru?. Gligar clod loses to Cloy, Clod evos lose to taunt. One speed tie shouldn't be the deciding factor of a game, specially when it's about Ceruledge vs Ceruledge, that says a lot about centralizing

but I think that it should be banned anyway.

I stand my point about Ceruledge limiting teambuilding a little bit too much and therefore making the ladder kinda dead and boring a lot of times. However taking Cloy out of the equation might make it much more manageable and less restrictive at teambuilding

 

[Dark Koopatrol]

Really liking the VR here, would just like to suggest adding Luxray to Bisharp and Serperior to Magmar. The only other meta-relevant evos that are missing here that I can think of are Chansey/Hatterene and Murkrow/Gyarados, and maybe Dunsparce/Clodsire for a return to the classics. Other than that I think that covers a lot of our bases.

I will say I am surprised to see Bisharp ranked higher than Gligar, the weaknesses to Fighting and Ground often makes its Steel typing hurt more than it helps. Other than that I more or less agree with all of the listings in this VR at this time.

Haven't seen a Bisharp Luxray before so I'm not sure if adding Luxray to it is necessary. It might be good on some team but IDT I have to include every possible set it can run. I don't think that any of the other sets mentioned are viable, though Magmar/Serperior is quite common.

I probably should have mentioned this in the original post, but all tiers are sorted alphabetically, though the listed evos are sorted by viability. I would say for S I would probably go Gligar > Bisharp > Qwilfish, though there's definitely a world where Bisharp is #1.

So because you might be able to guess, it shouldn't be? Other than that, why would it be bad for the metagame ?

I just don't think that it's necessary, and I like guessing what my opponent might be bringing without seeing it. Implementing Nickname Reveal Clause would remove this aspect from the game.

Is it really on the spirit of the ladder to keep track of the different teams people are running at the moment, being so that ladder alternate players and players alternate teams ?

This was just something that I noted that can help a bit. It's not necessary at all.

That's really easy to predict, to be completely honest. Ceru player will just click crunch after SD and then if your ceruledge survives, then loses the tie, you can pretty much say gg if you are running an ofensive team. I'd rather ask why a tier with ceruledge is better than one without it. Vullaby sure does counter it as well as clodsire, but then, not running unaware or vullaby becomes imposible with the mon on the tier.

I'm aware of the possibility of being predicted. In the example given, Ceruledge is being sent out to block Bitter Blade recovery, not to take it on 1v1, and you're fine with losing your own Ceruledge if it means that theirs doesn't have enough HP to take another hit.

In general building, you can't have an answer for every mon and that's okay, bad matchups exist. However, there is a problem when not having a ceruledge answer leads to an automatic loss. You could say teambuilding issue but then, why is everyone forced to have an unaware mon or vullaby to deal with Ceru?. Gligar clod loses to Cloy, Clod evos lose to taunt. One speed tie shouldn't be the deciding factor of a game, specially when it's about Ceruledge vs Ceruledge, that says a lot about centralizing

You SHOULD have some sort of answer to most threats that you face, even if your answer isn't that solid or is a bit inconsistent. If you don't have any sort of gameplan to deal with Ceruledge, you shouldn't be surprised when you lose a lot of games to it. You aren't forced to use a Vullaby or a Clodsire to not lose to it. You just need some sort of way to eliminate it. Heck, my team that I've been using on the Dark Koopatrol account has 0 walls and not a single Pokémon naturally faster than Ceruledge, but I haven't had any issues with it. I didn't even try to specifically have a good MU against it. This just naturally happened as I built the team.

 

[Zuldaar]

I'd add Skeledirge to Chansey, Tsareena to Primeape, Hitmontop to Qwilfish & Vullaby, move Hippopotas to B, also add Corphish on B with Araquanid, and lastly add to B Nosepass with Vaporeon.

I also agree that while I do see a case for Bisharp being on par with Qwil, Gligar is the undisputed king on this meta.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

I would personally be opposed to implementing Nickname Reveal Clause. If you look at your opponent's team, you can usually get a good idea of what kind of sets they're running. If I see a Qwilfish on a stall team, I know that it's probably a Clodsire, and even if it isn't none of its other defensive sets are handled that differently. If I see it on a hyper offense team, it's probably a Ceruledge, and typical Ceruledge answers also work well for most of the other offensive sets it can run, and even when your counterplay is different for the different offensive sets it runs, you should be prepared to fight against any of the sets it can run, and once it gets sent out you know what you're facing.

Zoroark(-Hisui) evo is extremely uncompetitive, even if its usage is fake.
Anyways, how exactly am I supposed to tell if Qwilfish-Hisui is running a defensive or offensive set just based on their structure on balance teams? Furthermore, because Qwilfish-Hisui's offensive and defensive sets are extremely splashable, it isn't enjoyable to "guess" its evolution, especially when you likely have to guess 5 other evolutions along with 5 other movesets.

Even if you're surprised by a Pokémon that your opponent is running, you can only get surprised once, and you'll know what to expect in future games against that team.

Zoroark(-Hisui) evo will always be surprising and uncompetitive.
I'm not understanding your point of just knowing "what to expect in future games against that team" when an unexpected evolution can just defeat you or put an unfair disadvantage to your team. This just sounds like you are encouraging matchup fishing and assuming that players will be able to effectively counter a Pokemon and its various sets in the future, which ignores the teambuilding strain they potentially place. For example, if my opponent has a Primeape and I incorrectly predict that it is a bulky setup Dragonite evo instead of a niche bulky setup Skeledirge Rage Fist evolution, I will unknowingly attack the Primeape and my opponent just gets a free Rage Fist boost that I could not predict.

A Nickname Reveal Clause would reduce MU fishing and somewhat encourage more skillful gameplay, rather than using unexpected evolutions that are only telegraphed when you send the Pokemon out and relying on surprise factor to win.

 

[Dark Koopatrol]

I'd add Skeledirge to Chansey, Tsareena to Primeape, Hitmontop to Qwilfish & Vullaby, move Hippopotas to B, also add Corphish on B with Araquanid, and lastly add to B Nosepass with Vaporeon.

I also agree that while I do see a case for Bisharp being on par with Qwil, Gligar is the undisputed king on this meta.

Hippopotas has been moved down to B, but the rest have stayed the same. Is there anything specific that Nosepass does well enough to make up for its low HP giving worse Wishes than Dunsparce?

Zoroark(-Hisui) evo is extremely uncompetitive, even if its usage is fake.

Zoroark(-Hisui) evo will always be surprising and uncompetitive.

Zoroark is not a real concern in CE. You're sacrificing having usable stats for maybe catching the opponent off guard. It might occasionally work against certain teams, but that doesn't mean it's a problem. I find that often when I face a Zoroark, it just isn't threatening enough to do much when I get surprised by it. Even if Zoroark specifically was a problem, I would find that to be a reason to ban Zoroark, not to to implement a Nickname Reveal Clause.

Anyways, how exactly am I supposed to tell if Qwilfish-Hisui is running a defensive or offensive set just based on their structure on balance teams?

There's a few things that you can look at, such as what Pokémon on their team could potentially run offensive sets, what Pokémon could potentially run defensive sets, what your opponent's team looks weak to, and if it can afford to run something passive like a Qwilfish Clodsire. There isn't a way to know whether it's offensive or defensive 100% of the time, but even if you do get it wrong it's not like you instantly lose the game. Defensive sets don't usually apply a lot of immediate pressure, so the consequences of being incorrect about something being offensive are minimal. Something I also forgot to mention in my original post is that you can scout what the opponent's set is. If I'm using a Girafarig Gholdengo and my opponent doesn't switch to Qwilfish, there's a high chance that it isn't running a defensive set.

I'm not understanding your point of just knowing "what to expect in future games against that team" when an unexpected evolution can just defeat you or put an unfair disadvantage to your team. This just sounds like you are encouraging matchup fishing

This wasn't one of my main points at all, but rather something that can help with being caught off guard. I don't usually run into issues when my opponents running something unexpected, I don't think that matchup fishing is particularly common, and I don't encourage it.

assuming that players will be able to effectively counter a Pokemon and its various sets in the future, which ignores the teambuilding strain they potentially place.

If you aren't able to effectively deal with a Pokémon because of the teambuilding strain it provides, that doesn't sound like an issue with being caught off guard. That sounds like an issue with having a bad matchup into that Pokémon, or that a specific Pokémon is problematic in general.

For example, if my opponent has a Primeape and I incorrectly predict that it is a bulky setup Dragonite evo instead of a niche bulky setup Skeledirge Rage Fist evolution, I will unknowingly attack the Primeape and my opponent just gets a free Rage Fist boost that I could not predict.

I'm not entirely sure what your point here is. Both Dragonite and Skeledirge sets run Rage Fist, so unless you used a Ground move knowing that Dragonite would be immune to it, nothing changed.

A Nickname Reveal Clause would reduce MU fishing and somewhat encourage more skillful gameplay, rather than using unexpected evolutions that are only telegraphed when you send the Pokemon out and relying on surprise factor to win.

I don't think that using unexpected evolutions for the surprise factor is very common at all, nor do I think that they often work very well. I could definitely see Nickname Reveal Clause helping with this if it was an issue, but don't think that it is.

 

[ZarbyXar]

Does Rillaboom even have any use as a ce? Grassy terrain looks to be the worst of the 3 terrains in this metagame. Psychic cancels the omnipresent priority moves,misty helps break through bulkier teams.grassy terrain is actively running a deficit on your team for what passive healing? Being unable to use earthquake as coverage is more of a handicap for what it’s worth. Is Rillaboom just unexplored or straight up univable? Is my actual question.

 

[mayonnaise. mayo.]

Up-to-date:
- Rain by @smellslikememe
- DLC2 Webs by @Gimlaf
- Double Unaware Stall by @Gimlaf

The webs team has the wrong link. Instead of what should be there, there's the rain team linked twice.

 

[Zuldaar]

Does Rillaboom even have any use as a ce? Grassy terrain looks to be the worst of the 3 terrains in this metagame. Psychic cancels the omnipresent priority moves,misty helps break through bulkier teams.grassy terrain is actively running a deficit on your team for what passive healing? Being unable to use earthquake as coverage is more of a handicap for what it’s worth. Is Rillaboom just unexplored or straight up univable? Is my actual question.

I don't think so, just by looking at numbers you will find that the optimal Grass base is... Thwackey. Unless you don't care about speed, in which case it's Grotle or Weepinbell. Mons that don't see any use in CE.

Next is to ignore Grass type and see who else could use Rilla's toolkit and those would be Bisharp or Primeape. Mons that would very much rather be Tsareena. But let's look away from Rillaboom for a second.

I think this is the best you can do as for a Grassy Surge abuser, which is not bad but it can Unburden with White Herb anyways


Hitmonlee (Gligar) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

 

[Dark Koopatrol]

I don't think so, just by looking at numbers you will find that the optimal Grass base is... Thwackey. Unless you don't care about speed, in which case it's Grotle or Weepinbell. Mons that don't see any use in CE.

Next is to ignore Grass type and see who else could use Rilla's toolkit and those would be Bisharp or Primeape. Mons that would very much rather be Tsareena. But let's look away from Rillaboom for a second.

What about Chansey? Chansey's already great natural bulk means that almost anything fits on it, and Rillaboom doesn't seem to be much different. Chansey/Rillaboom only has 255/115 special bulk, the lowest I've seen on any Chansey cross-evolution, but it's probably still usable. Rillaboom also gives Chansey some new moves it can use. This notably includes U-turn, which is probably enough to make Chansey viable. Dipplin is also a viable Grass-type base you didn't mention.

I think this is the best you can do as for a Grassy Surge abuser, which is not bad but it can Unburden with White Herb anyways


Hitmonlee (Gligar) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

It CAN use Unburden with White Herb, but it prefers to use Grassy Seed. White Herb Close Combat requires you to attack before getting the speed boost, which makes it unable to outspeed opposing Pokémon before they attack. Close Combat can also be blocked by a Ghost-type, which makes White Herb not that consistent, and it's awkward to have to attack to boost your speed when you also want to use SD. Items that get used when you get hit, such as Red Card or Kee Berry are alternatives, but those rely on your opponent attacking you, and you still can't outspeed your opponent before they outspeed you. An item that gets consumed as soon as you enter the battle is ideal for Unburden, which is exactly what Grassy Seed is, and the Def boost it provides is great for opposing priority.

Hitmonlee (Gligar) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- High Horsepower
- Ice Fang / Knock Off / Close Combat

This would be my preferred set for Gligar/Hitmonlee. I don't think that you really need any Speed EVs for Unburden due to its naturally high base Speed, so most of the remaining EVs have been put into HP for bulk. 32 Spe EVs let you outspeed Timid Magneton/Clefable without the Unburden boost, but if you don't feel like that's necessary you could put those EVs into bulk. Ice Fang doesn't let you hit Magneton/Hydreigon, but it's better for literally everything else.

Is Rillaboom just unexplored or straight up univable? Is my actual question.

I'd personally say that it's unexplored. I haven't actually used it myself so I'm not sure how good it actually is, but Chansey/Rillaboom seems decent in theory, the passive healing from Grassy Terrain is a great effect, Unburden is a really strong Ability, and Grassy Seed is just a good item.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

The ladder has become a bit slow, could the council consider a survey to gauge the health of the current meta? I’m enjoying it personally, but I’m seeing a real lack of balance teams. I exclusively play full stall, so I only get half the picture, but I’m mostly seeing HO teams.

If the metagame is unhealthy, what/who is the culprit? Is it Cloyster? Light Clay? Gligar? Ceruledge? Last Respect? Magneton? I don’t know. I’m not even sure the meta is unhealthy in its current state. Would the council consider a survey on the matter? I would be interested to see the results.

 

[GrayJou]

The ladder has become a bit slow, could the council consider a survey to gauge the health of the current meta? I’m enjoying it personally, but I’m seeing a real lack of balance teams. I exclusively play full stall, so I only get half the picture, but I’m mostly seeing HO teams.

If the metagame is unhealthy, what/who is the culprit? Is it Cloyster? Light Clay? Gligar? Ceruledge? Last Respect? Magneton? I don’t know. I’m not even sure the meta is unhealthy in its current state. Would the council consider a survey on the matter? I would be interested to see the results.

The meta is crazy unhealthy imo. Several players coincide that stall is too strong in this metagame. I think this hides the brokenness of Ceruledge a bit, since it can't really break any stall. Cloyster is matchup fishy as it doesn't have enough damage to break some walls, but can steamroll over others; it also completely loses to any unaware non gligar.

I personally find Chansey to be insane, since evos allows it to have defense and tank physical hits it shouldn't be able to.

For example, Adamant Cranidos Gyarados can't OHKO Chansey with any 30 defense (Gardevoir, Garganacl, Hatt, Pawmot)
252+ Atk Cranidos Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 553-652 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This as it carries heal bell, wish pass, rocks or status, and good luck knowing its typing as it could be normal/ghost, normal/fairy or just normal.
It can outheal Gligar Gyarados too
0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 241-285 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This allows Chansey to take down already chipped physical attackers that don't hit it super effectively or dare to use a recoil move while the tier is full of mons that eat close combats for breakfast. Alongside other walls, it makes a forgiving and reliable defensive core that make games extremely tiresome and unfun.

Stall will win the hazards battle against balance or offense every single time. Also, unlike other tiers such as ou, ff and abc, stall mons here pack a lot of offense alongside gyarados, rhydon, qwilfish, pory, and even some dunsparce evos.

Some of them will slap a random slowpoke, hippopotas or other wicked mon with gyarados that makes countering it really difficult (or impossible) for some teams.

Breakers exist but aren't as reliable such as:
Giraf-Toxtricity (Has a hard time pushing through gyarados, dirge, ceruledge)
Banded Bisharp
Magneton

 

[GrayJou]

The ladder has become a bit slow, could the council consider a survey to gauge the health of the current meta? I’m enjoying it personally, but I’m seeing a real lack of balance teams. I exclusively play full stall, so I only get half the picture, but I’m mostly seeing HO teams.

If the metagame is unhealthy, what/who is the culprit? Is it Cloyster? Light Clay? Gligar? Ceruledge? Last Respect? Magneton? I don’t know. I’m not even sure the meta is unhealthy in its current state. Would the council consider a survey on the matter? I would be interested to see the results.

Light Clay is also crazy to me too

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I agree with you that stall is crazy good, I’m currently nr 1 with stall and have only lost four times on the ladder. 67-4. However, it’s difficult to determine exactly what could be done about it. Perhaps banning Chansey is enough, it might be, but it’s difficult to say. Stall is strong because of synergy between teammates. In a vacuum it’s difficult to argue that they’re broken. Chansey is an easy target, but idk if it’s real problem. Chansey is countered the way it always is, it’s very passive and weak physically. You know what to expect.

Also, tbf, I haven’t seen a lot of stall on the ladder - besides myself.

If you want to beat stall (my team atleast) then the following mons/strats do tremendous work, without being niche (most atleast).

Tsareena Bisharp with Triple Axel for Gligar
Psychic Noise Girafarig
Taunt Vivillon Evolutions (Electabuzz, Magmar, Haunter & Frogadier, in that order).
Clefable Magneton with Focus Blast/knock off
Cloyster Mudbray with Substitute/Rock blast
Revival Blessing + Recycle Dipplin (lol I know)
Lycanroc Cranidos

Also I added Light Clay because I am biased here and trying to see it from the perspective of HO. Idk if it’s fine or not, It doesn’t bother the stall MU

 

[GrayJou]

Tsareena Bisharp with Triple Axel for Gligar

It has no recovery plus, triple axel is not as reliable and stall has a lot of resources

Psychic Noise Girafarig

Only the setup variation doesn't get beaten by special walls, girafarig lacks recovery other than wish. Girafarig breaks better with Boomburst Toxtricity. Not even Chansey can wall it uninvested in Spd.

Taunt Vivillon Evolutions (Electabuzz, Magmar, Haunter & Frogadier, in that order).

In Cross Evolution mons can actually do damage. There is no need to use a status move on a 30-to-50 defense vivillon evolution.

Revival Blessing + Recycle Dipplin (lol I know)

This is kind of endless battle and not really that good.

Clefable Magneton with Focus Blast/knock off

Non Stab focus miss is 240 power vs 210 Steel Beam. Since you have to land at least three to take chansey down, it has a DPS of 240*0.7 = 168

Lycanroc Cranidos

Gotta test it I guess, but Cranidos doesn't like to live and takes 70% of its own hp trying to beat any high hp mon

 

[GrayJou]

The Issue with playing offense is that a stall team can have 3 answers such as unaware, intimidate and fur coat. The main offender is Gyarados. It can make any gimmicky otherwise useless mon such as slowpoke, hippopotas, shellder, etc while also packing 180 atk to threaten your mons back, set dragon dance, hazards or pivot out. You just never know what or if the oponent has gyarados and what's going to do with the combination.

In the case you have taunt or substitute on a setup mon that beats unaware, it gets destroyed by intimidate gyarados unless it packs a supereffective move, which is impossible with all the possible options for gyarados evolutions. Most of the time, it switches in for any attack that targets Qwilfishh or Chansey and it maintains slow pivots slow due to it giving no speed. Having in mind that Gyarados evo gives a lot of spdef, you have a ridiculously tanky mon with intimidate and spdef. I find it extremely overwhelming and troublesome. I think access to having 180 atk, intimidate and a ton of spdef is too much. Evolving a mon with recovery makes an even sturdiest defensive core

Moxie evos are handable since gyarados gives almost 0 speed and it gaining not so much defense makes it so your physical mons don't suddenly become setup fodders or forced to switch. I genuinely think Gyarados evo with intimidate is too much, as it makes defensive cores impossible to cover offensively.

So the options are banning Gyarados or Intimidate:

If we ban intimidate
- We hurt incineroar and masquerain, barely used
- We get to keep moxie gyarados

If we ban gyarados
- We get to keep some rare intimidate builds
- We lose moxie gyarados

I'm good with either option to be honest. Tho I think banning gyarados hurts a little bit more

 

[Imperator Romanum]

It has no recovery plus, triple axel is not as reliable and stall has a lot of resources

Only the setup variation doesn't get beaten by special walls, girafarig lacks recovery other than wish. Girafarig breaks better with Boomburst Toxtricity. Not even Chansey can wall it uninvested in Spd.

In Cross Evolution mons can actually do damage. There is no need to use a status move on a 30-to-50 defense vivillon evolution.

This is kind of endless battle and not really that good.

Non Stab focus miss is 240 power vs 210 Steel Beam. Since you have to land at least three to take chansey down, it has a DPS of 240*0.7 = 168

Gotta test it I guess, but Cranidos doesn't like to live and takes 70% of its own hp trying to beat any high hp mon

A couple of quick points;
Tsareena gives Bisharp Synthesis, so it does have recovery. Triple Axel + Knock off threaten the two of the better knock off absorbers in Gligar and Magic Guard Dusclops. It doesn’t automatically win, but it forces progress by removing HDBs. Knock Off, Triple Axel, Synthesis and Rapid Spin on bulky Bisharp is probably the best spinner in the tier. You could opt for sucker punch over synthesis depending on whether you’re weaker to offence or defence.

If it wasn’t clear then Girafarig can be very annoying regardless of the set it’s running. The boomburst sets are great and they lose nothing from running Psychic Noise in addition to Boomburst. Boomburst +pnoise + nasty plot + filler is solid vs stall.

I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss taunt when you’re explicitly advocating that stall is top strong. At that point it’s a bit on you if you refuse to adapt your playstyle to improve your own stall MU. Dark Koopatrol has beaten my team by using taunt and they’re using hyper offence with a 93% GXE, so clearly it’s working for them.

Magneton is strong for the same reason the afformentilned Bisharp set is strong. It forces progress by chipping away health or removing HDBs. While it can’t 2HKO Chansey, if you get the predict right 2-3 times and volt switch then suddenly Chansey is a crit or a sp.def drop away from losing.

This is how you beat stall, by conserving resources and expend them to make a key breakthrough. A stall team will a hole in it will be broken sooner or later. Magneton and Bisharp are excellent at conserving resources while also making progress.

The Issue with playing offense is that a stall team can have 3 answers such as unaware, intimidate and fur coat. The main offender is Gyarados. It can make any gimmicky otherwise useless mon such as slowpoke, hippopotas, shellder, etc while also packing 180 atk to threaten your mons back, set dragon dance, hazards or pivot out. You just never know what or if the oponent has gyarados and what's going to do with the combination.

In the case you have taunt or substitute on a setup mon that beats unaware, it gets destroyed by intimidate gyarados unless it packs a supereffective move, which is impossible with all the possible options for gyarados evolutions. Most of the time, it switches in for any attack that targets Qwilfishh or Chansey and it maintains slow pivots slow due to it giving no speed. Having in mind that Gyarados evo gives a lot of spdef, you have a ridiculously tanky mon with intimidate and spdef. I find it extremely overwhelming and troublesome. I think access to having 180 atk, intimidate and a ton of spdef is too much. Evolving a mon with recovery makes an even sturdiest defensive core

Moxie evos are handable since gyarados gives almost 0 speed and it gaining not so much defense makes it so your physical mons don't suddenly become setup fodders or forced to switch. I genuinely think Gyarados evo with intimidate is too much, as it makes defensive cores impossible to cover offensively.

So the options are banning Gyarados or Intimidate:

If we ban intimidate
- We hurt incineroar and masquerain, barely used
- We get to keep moxie gyarados

If we ban gyarados
- We get to keep some rare intimidate builds
- We lose moxie gyarados

I'm good with either option to be honest. Tho I think banning gyarados hurts a little bit more

I don’t believe Gyarados is the main culprit here. First of all, Gyarados could be exchanged for Fur Coat for similar physical bulk. It’s also important to remember that the bulkiest (physical) mon in the tier is not a product of either Gyarados or Fur Coat, it’s Milotic Gligar. Gyarados is also an important offensive and balance piece, and is a great way to keep HO from becoming overwhelming. Gyarados Gligar is a very healthy piece for offense to keep the plethora of sweepers in check. Gyarados evos such as Murkrow are also excellent wallbreakers in their own right which can threaten stall.

Banning Gyarados wouldn’t solve the problem you’re trying to solve here as it’s an acceptable loss for stall (Gligotic & Fur Coat can replace it). It would also throw the entire tier into disequilibrium. Most archetypes and teams run Gyarados, banning it would flip the whole deck up in the air - if it would be better or not is impossible to tell.