Metagame Cross Evolution

[Notagamer]

https://pokepast.es/0bc4627fcca5a676 here’s one dlc mon that I thought sounded pretty cool. Imagine garganacl except it’s typing is far better, it has will o wisp and better bulk. Dusclops will definitely be really good when dlc drops (I’ll also drop some other dlc mons when I think of em)

 

[Dark Koopatrol]

Pokémon HOME should be coming out soon so I wanted to share my thoughts on the Pokémon that'll come out with it.

My thoughts on HOME mons

Stats: 60 HP / 75 Atk / 45 Def / 65 SpA / 50 SpD / 55 Spe
Type: Fire / Rock

Pretty much just Growlithe but with a bit more Attack but less Speed and a worse type. You're usually better off running regular Growlithe.




Stat changes: +35 HP / +40 Atk / +35 Def / +30 SpA / +30 SpD / +35 Spe
Abilities: Intimidate / Flash Fire / Rock Head
Type changes: None

This is pretty much just Arcanine but with Head Smash and Rock Head. Unfortunately, it suffers from mediocre stats. It'll probably be fine though and will be an interesting choice on webs.




Stat changes: +40 HP / +58 Atk / +99 Def / +2 SpA / +1 SpD / +10 Spe
Abilities: Strong Jaw / Ice Body / Sturdy
Type changes: +Rock

This is literally just worse Avalugg. Don't use this.




Stats: 70 HP / 92 Atk / 65 Def / 80 SpA / 55 SpD / 98 Spe
Type: Water

This seems like it could be problematic. It has slightly less Attack than Stantler, but makes up for it with its astounding 98 Speed. To put that in perspective, the only faster bases are Voltorb, Voltorb-Hisui, Sneasel-Hisui, and Drakloak, and the only relevant one there is Sneasel-Hisui. Additionally, as a Stage 1 Pokémon, it gets access to the fastest evos. So it already seems pretty scary, but it gets even worse. It gets Last Respects. So far Last Respects has proven to not be problematic, especially due to the prominence of Normal types, but I feel like this was also due to Houndstone being an underwhelming evo. Basculin-White-Striped, on the other hand, is a really good base, and although it doesn't normally get STAB on Last Respects, can easily fix that by evolving into Ceruledge, which will give it Ghost STAB, a good movepool, +75 Atk, and +50 Spe, allowing it to outspeed and nuke most Pokémon. This will probably end up being ban worthy.




Stat changes: +50 HP / +20 Atk / +0 Def / +0 SpA / +20 SpD / -20 Spe
Abilities: Swift Swim / Adaptability / Mold Breaker
Type changes: +Ghost

Pretty much the only reason to use it is Last Respects, and Houndstone is sort of bad in CE. Moreover, it gains less Attack than Houndstone and actually loses Speed. That being said, the added Ghost type makes Last Respects STAB which can be further boosted by Adaptability. Alternatively, you could run Swift Swim to boost Speed in a slightly better weather than sand. Honestly not sure how good this will be, especially due to Basculin-White-Striped getting Last Respects as well, but it's something to look out for IMO.




Stat changes: +50 HP / +0 Atk / +0 Def / +20 SpA / +20 SpD / -20 Spe
Abilities: Swift Swim / Adaptability / Mold Breaker
Type changes: +Ghost

Literally just worse Basculegion. I guess you could run both Pokémon at once, but that doesn't seem like a very good choice to me.




Stat changes: +40 HP / +0 Atk / +20 Def / +75 SpA / +20 SpD / +5 Spe
Abilities: Keen Eye / Sheer Force / Tinted Lens
Type changes: +Psychic (primary Type)

This gets an an amazing 75 SpA, and although it doesn't get much Speed, it gets Esper Wing to make up for that. Alternatively, it could run Sheer Force for more damage, but would be stuck with its low Speed, but can be run on webs or with a Choice Scarf. Sheer Force is probably its best set because it otherwise gets outclassed by Espeon.




Stats: 40 HP / 45 Atk / 40 Def / 62 SpA / 60 SpD / 60 Spe
Type: Fire

This is bad and is mostly outclassed by Fuecoco. Wish there was more to say about it.




Stats: 59 HP / 59 Atk / 58 Def / 90 SpA / 70 SpD / 73 Spe
Type: Fire

I legitimately cannot think of one single reason to use this over Crocalor. The one thing Braixen has over it is Speed, but even then it isn't really that fast at all. Some people will probably evolve it into Slaking due to Skill Swap, but that sucks.




Stat changes: +19 HP / +14 Atk / +18 Def / +28 SpA / +10 SpD / +13 Spe
Abilities: Blaze / Magician
Type changes: None

As bad as Braixen is as a base, it's somehow even worse as an evo. I again cannot think of a reason to use it over literally anything else.




Stat changes: +16 HP / +10 Atk / +14 Def / +24 SpA / +30 SpD / +31 Spe
Abilities: Blaze / Magician
Type changes: +Psychic

Just like Braixen, Delphox is a bad evolution. Don't use this.




Stat changes: +10 HP / +37 Atk / +Def / +25 SpA / +25 SpD / +8 Spe
Abilities: Overgrow / Scrappy
Type changes: +Fighting

This also looks pretty bad. It's a shame since I wanted to use Triple Arrows in CE, but I just can't justify using this.




Stats: 10 HP / 55 Atk / 30 Def / 35 SpA / 45 SpD / 90 Spe
Type: Ground / Steel

This is basically regular Diglett and it's still bad. If anything it's worse due to the slightly lower Speed.




Stat changes: +25 HP / +45 Atk / +30 Def / +15 SpA / +25 SpD / +20 Spe
Abilities: Sand Veil / Tangling Hair / Sand Force
Type changes: None

Basically the same case as Diglett-Alola. It's pretty bad and Dugtrio / Wugtrio outclass it depending on whether you want Sand Force or Tangling Hair.




Stats: 40 HP / 30 Atk / 50 Def / 55 SpA / 55 SpD / 100 Spe
Type: Electric/Grass

This is just slightly different Voltorb and still suffers from the low defensive and offensive stats that render it useless.




Stat changes: +20 HP / +20 Atk / +20 Def / +25 SpA / +25 SpD / +50 Spe
Abilities: Soundproof / Static / Aftermath
Type changes: None

I don't think this'll be particularly good but Chloroblast is a funny move. That's it really, might have some niche as a suicide lead.




Stats: 45 HP / 30 Atk / 25 Def / 75 SpA / 45 SpD / 80 Spe
Type: Ghost

It barely learns any moves and its stats leave a bit to be desired. Just use Misdreavus.




Stats: 58 HP / 75 Atk / 83 Def / 83 Spa / 113 SpD / 40 Spe
Type: Steel / Dragon

This seems like a very fun base. It has a great type, decent offensive stats, and good defenses (excluding HP). It's basically specially defensive Shelgon. Tsareena and Garganacl seem like fun evos especially due to recovery. Hatterene also seems fun but sadly that would leave Sliggoo without recovery.




Stat changes: +13 HP / +25 Atk / +48 Def / +28 SpA / +38 SpD / +0 Spe
Abilities: Sap Sipper / Shell Armor / Gooey
Type changes: Steel / Dragon

Unfortunately, as an evo, Sliggoo doesn't look all that appealing. Other Pokémon give both better stats and recovery. The one thing this has going for it is the Steel / Dragon type, but I don't think that'll be enough to save it.




Stat changes: +22 HP / +25 Atk / +17 Def / +27 SpA / +37 SpD / 20 Spe
Abilities: Sap Sipper / Shell Armor / Gooey
Type changes: None

This is basically Goodra without Hydration. It may not be the worst evo but it has mediocre stats and lacks recovery.




Stat changes: +0 HP / +25 Atk / +15 Def / -10 SpA / -10 SpD / -20 Spe
Abilities: Swarm / Sheer Force / Sharpness
Type changes: +Rock

This is probably a bad evo. Sure, it may get Sharpness and Stone Axe, but Stone Axe isn't that big a deal when you barely gain any physical bulk, lose special bulk, and lose Speed. I'd much rather use Hippodos or something to set Stealth Rock. Unfortunately it's probably going to see a fair bit of use at first.




Stats: 80 HP / 80 Atk / 50 Def / 40 SpA / 50 SpD / 25 Spe
Type: Poison / Dark

I legitimately do not know what you'd use this for. It has mediocre stats and doesn't really have a niche.




Stat changes: +25 HP / +25 Atk / +25 Def / +25 SpA / +50 SpD / +25 Spe
Abilities: Poison Touch / Gluttony / Power of Alchemy
Type changes: None

Just like Grimer-Alola, it has underwhelming stats and doesn't really have a niche. No real reason to use it.




Stats: 50 HP / 65 Atk / 50 Def / 40 SpA / 40 SpD / 65 Spe
Type: Grass

Just like most starter Pokémon, its stats are a bit lacking and as a result will probably be bad.




Stats: 70 HP / 85 Atk / 70 Def / 55 SpA / 60 SpD / 80 Spe
Type: Grass

I don't foresee it being that good offensively but it has some utility in Knock Off, U-turn, and Taunt. However, I'd usually prefer to use Dartrix so Thwackey probably won't get much use. Taunt could give it a niche though.



Stat changes: +20 HP / +20 Atk / +20 Def / +15 SpA / +20 SpD / +15 Spe
Abilities: Overgrow / Grassy Surge
Type changes: None

This'll be bad but will at least be able to use Grassy Glide from Gen 8. Don't foresee it having much usage as an evo.




Stat changes: +30 HP / +40 Atk / +20 Def / +5 SpA / +10 SpD / +5 Spe
Abilities: Overgrow / Grassy Surge
Type changes: None

Like Thwackey, Grassy Glide allows it to have a niche but is otherwise bad.




Stats: 60 HP / 90 Atk / 60 Def / 53 SpA / 50 SpD/ 72 Spe
Type: Fighting

It looks like it could be decent with Gyarados or Barraskewda, but its stats are a bit lower than some other bases. Fighting type and U-turn are the main things it has going for it. Sort of hard to say how good it'll be.




Stat changes: +40 HP / +40 Atk / +40 Def / +10 SpA / +10 SpD / +25 Spe
Abilities: Unseen Fist
Type changes: +Dark

I unfortunately don't see much merit in using this. +40 Attack is good, but it outclassed by many other evos, and its other stats aren't that great either. Really the only reason I can think of to use this is for Unseen Fist, but that honestly just feels a bit too niche. It's definitely usable, but you usually have better options.




Stat changes: +40 HP / +40 Atk / +40 Def / +10 SpA / +10 SpD / +25 Spe
Abilities: Unseen Fist
Type changes: +Water

My thoughts on this are the same as on regular Urshifu. Might have a niche but is generally outclassed.




Stat changes: +25 HP / +30 Atk / +10 Def / +45 SpA / +35 SpD / +20 Spe
Abilities: Surge Surfer
Type changes: +Psychic

Unfortunately Electric Terrain just doesn't exist in CE, so there's not really much reason to use it.




Stat changes: +25 HP / +70 Atk / +25 Def / -20 SpA / +25 SpD / +75 Spe
Abilities: Chlorophyll / Hustle / Leaf Guard
Type changes: +Fighting

This is probably one of the more broken Pokémon getting added in from HOME. +70 Atk and +75 Spe is ridiculous, Victory Dance is very good, and it has decent coverage. It also has Hustle if for some reason you decided it was worth it and Chlorophyll makes it very dangerous on sun and will probably be its main ability outside of sun as it helps against sun matchups. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets banned.




Stats: 40 HP / 35 Atk / 35 Def / 50 SpA / 40 SpD / 90 Spe
Abilities: Pickup / Technician / Rattled
Type: Dark

Meowth-Alola has low offensive and defensive stats and is thus bad.




Stat changes: +25 HP / +25 Atk / +25 Def / +25 SpA / +25 SpD / +25 Spe
Abilities: Fur Coat / Technician / Rattled
Type changes: None

This would be a bad Pokémon if it weren't for Fur Coat, but since it does have Fur Coat it'll be a very good physical wall. It also gets some utility in Thunder Wave, Switcheroo, Taunt, Chilling Water, and Parting Shot / U-turn. Unfortunately it doesn't have any recovery so that'll have to come from the prevo. There isn't really much else to say about this, but I'm very excited to use this.




Stats: 65 HP / 95 Atk / 85 Def / 55 SpA / 55 SpD / 85 Spe
Type: Dark / Poison

This'll end up being very good. Most of the discussion around it has been about its defensive capabilities, but it also has the same Atk and Spe as Stantler. Unfortunately I don't yet have too many thoughts on it and am not quite sure what the best evolutions would be, but it's definitely something I want to try out.




Stat changes: +20 HP / +20 Atk / +10 Def / +10 SpA / +10 SpD / +0 Spe
Abilities: Poison Point / Swift Swim / Intimidate
Type changes: None

Overqwil unfortunately doesn't offer much besides Intimidate, and there are better evos for that. Wish it was better.




Stat changes: +0 HP / +0 Atk / +0 Def / +0 SpA / +0 SpD / +0 Spe
Abilities: Shield Dust / Compound Eyes
Type changes: +Flying

For some reason /showevo vivillon-pokeball shows that it doesn't gain any stats. I assume that this is a bug, and if/when it gets fixed it'll literally be regular Vivillon but with a cool name. IG you can use three Vivillons now. (There's currently a bug where you can use multiple of the same Pokémon as an evolution so long as they're all different formes.)




Stat changes: +15 HP / +33 Atk / +20 Def / +17 SpA / +5 SpD / +25 Spe
Abilities: Torrent / Sharpness
Type changes: +Dark

This is basically Kleavor but good. Samurott-Hisui of course has Ceaseless Edge which sets Spikes and is boosted by Sharpness, but also has Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Aqua Jet, and a few other moves boosted by Sharpness. Its stats still aren't amazing but it seems like it could be at least decent.




Stats: 90 HP / 65 Atk / 65 Def / 40 SpA / 40 SpD / 15 Spe
Type: Psychic

Slowpoke but with a worse type. No real reason to use it.




Stat changes: +5 HP / +35 Atk / +30 Def / +60 SpA / +30 SpD / +15 Spe
Abilities: Quick Draw / Own Tempo / Regenerator
Type changes: Poison / Psychic

Unfortunately it completely replaces your type with Poison/Psychic, which isn't amazing, and in any case gives worse defensive stats than regular Slowbro so this probably won't see much use.




Stat changes: +5 HP / +0 Atk / +15 Def / +70 SpA / +70 SpD / +15 Spe
Abilities: Curious Medicine / Own Tempo / Regenerator
Type changes: Poison / Psychic

Slowking-Galar has some good moves regular Slowking doesn't, including Eerie Spell, Acid Spray, Sludge Wave, Hex, Snarl, and even Toxic. Stat-wise, Slowking-Galar is better than regular Slowking. Sadly, it'll probably end up being worse than Slowking due to replacing your type with Poison/Psychic.




Stats: 55 HP / 95 Atk / 55 Def / 35 SpA / 75 SpD / 115 Spe
Type: Fighting / Poison

Fortunately, unlike regular Sneasel, it can't spam Technician Beat Up, but unfortunately, it'll probably end up being broken anyway. After all, it has the same stats as Sneasel and has STAB on Fighting moves, including Close Combat. Lilligant-Hisui will probably be a good evo.




Stat changes: +25 HP / +35 Atk / +5 Def / +5 SpA / +5 SpD / +5 Spe
Abilities: Pressure / Unburden / Poison Touch
Type changes: None

Sneasler gets Unburden which is really good, has a decent but not amazing movepool, and somewhat mediocre stats, so it'll probably end up being somewhat good but definitely manageable.




Stat changes: +15 HP / +20 Atk / +20 Def / +39 SpA / +20 SpD / +15 Spe
Abilities: Blaze / Frisk
Type changes: +Ghost

Probably won't be anything amazing. It's the best Eruption evo but doesn't give the Fire type and doesn't have anything else going for it. Probably has a niche.




Stat changes: +40 HP / +10 Atk / +30 Def / -30 SpA / +5 SpD / -5 Spe
Abilities: Guts / Bulletproof / Unnerve
Type changes: Ground / Normal

If you want a Guts evo, use Hariyama or Flareon. If you want a Stage 3 Guts evo, use Luxray. Unless you for some reason really want an added Normal type, there's no reason to use this.




Stat changes: +30 HP / +10 Atk / +10 Def / +20 SpA / +10 SpD / -20 Spe
Abilities: Intimidate / Frisk / Sap Sipper
Type changes: +Psychic

This just doesn't get anything noteworthy. IG it has Psychield Bash but that's only 90% accurate and definitely does not justify using it.

Also, this isn't really related to the rest of the post but Clodsparce can run Ability Shield for Tinksharp and I haven't seen anyone do so yet.

Here's some sample sets: https://pokepast.es/54add1b5bced12ea

 

[Gimlaf]

Adding my thoughts on some of the post-HOME mons:

Stat changes: +40 HP / +0 Atk / +20 Def / +75 SpA / +20 SpD / +5 Spe
Abilities: Keen Eye / Sheer Force / Tinted Lens
Type changes: +Psychic (primary Type)

This gets an an amazing 75 SpA, and although it doesn't get much Speed, it gets Esper Wing to make up for that. Alternatively, it could run Sheer Force for more damage, but would be stuck with its low Speed, but can be run on webs or with a Choice Scarf. Sheer Force is probably its best set because it otherwise gets outclassed by Espeon.

I really want to like this evo: that SpA increase and Tinted Lens look pretty appealing, and Esper Wing helps to patch up the pitiful Speed...that is, as long as the base already has usable Speed to begin with. The addition of a Psychic primary typing resulting in a weakness to Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch feels really off-putting to me, not to mention having to use a dual-typed base if you want two STABs. Maybe I'll throw it on webs (which I hadn't even thought about yet, despite primarily using a web team) and see how it goes.

Stats: 58 HP / 75 Atk / 83 Def / 83 Spa / 113 SpD / 40 Spe
Type: Steel / Dragon

This seems like a very fun base. It has a great type, decent offensive stats, and good defenses (excluding HP). It's basically specially defensive Shelgon. Tsareena and Garganacl seem like fun evos especially due to recovery. Hatterene also seems fun but sadly that would leave Sliggoo without recovery.

Most notably, this is the only Stage 2 base with a primary Steel typing. That alone should allow for some fun new mons, like using a Skeledirge evo on this to get a Steel/Ghost with recovery.

Stat changes: +40 HP / +40 Atk / +40 Def / +10 SpA / +10 SpD / +25 Spe
Abilities: Unseen Fist
Type changes: +Dark

I unfortunately don't see much merit in using this. +40 Attack is good, but it outclassed by many other evos, and its other stats aren't that great either. Really the only reason I can think of to use this is for Unseen Fist, but that honestly just feels a bit too niche. It's definitely usable, but you usually have better options.




Stat changes: +40 HP / +40 Atk / +40 Def / +10 SpA / +10 SpD / +25 Spe
Abilities: Unseen Fist
Type changes: +Water

My thoughts on this are the same as on regular Urshifu. Might have a niche but is generally outclassed.

The Urshifus do have their signature moves in Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes, so that might be worth something? Although Clodsparce likely won't mind being crit by those moves, unless it comes from something like a Choice Banded and/or Tera'd Stantler-Urishifu, or something with a similar Attack stat.

Stat changes: +25 HP / +70 Atk / +25 Def / -20 SpA / +25 SpD / +75 Spe
Abilities: Chlorophyll / Hustle / Leaf Guard
Type changes: +Fighting

This is probably one of the more broken Pokémon getting added in from HOME. +70 Atk and +75 Spe is ridiculous, Victory Dance is very good, and it has decent coverage. It also has Hustle if for some reason you decided it was worth it and Chlorophyll makes it very dangerous on sun and will probably be its main ability outside of sun as it helps against sun matchups. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets banned.

One can always try and pair Hustle with a base that has Hone Claws or Coil. And I'll be one of those people, lol.

Also, I'll add onto the sets with some of my own: https://pokepast.es/b95794bbd3837c23

 

[Fracterra]

Adding my thoughts on some of the post-HOME mons:


I really want to like this evo: that SpA increase and Tinted Lens look pretty appealing, and Esper Wing helps to patch up the pitiful Speed...that is, as long as the base already has usable Speed to begin with. The addition of a Psychic primary typing resulting in a weakness to Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch feels really off-putting to me, not to mention having to use a dual-typed base if you want two STABs. Maybe I'll throw it on webs (which I hadn't even thought about yet, despite primarily using a web team) and see how it goes.


Most notably, this is the only Stage 2 base with a primary Steel typing. That alone should allow for some fun new mons, like using a Skeledirge evo on this to get a Steel/Ghost with recovery.


The Urshifus do have their signature moves in Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes, so that might be worth something? Although Clodsparce likely won't mind being crit by those moves, unless it comes from something like a Choice Banded and/or Tera'd Stantler-Urishifu, or something with a similar Attack stat.


One can always try and pair Hustle with a base that has Hone Claws or Coil. And I'll be one of those people, lol.

Also, I'll add onto the sets with some of my own: https://pokepast.es/b95794bbd3837c23

I really want to like this evo: that SpA increase and Tinted Lens look pretty appealing, and Esper Wing helps to patch up the pitiful Speed...that is, as long as the base already has usable Speed to begin with. The addition of a Psychic primary typing resulting in a weakness to Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch feels really off-putting to me, not to mention having to use a dual-typed base if you want two STABs. Maybe I'll throw it on webs (which I hadn't even thought about yet, despite primarily using a web team) and see how it goes.
On webs teams this thing can go hard.


Most notably, this is the only Stage 2 base with a primary Steel typing. That alone should allow for some fun new mons, like using a Skeledirge evo on this to get a Steel/Ghost with recovery.
i heard you like waliing everything


The Urshifus do have their signature moves in Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes, so that might be worth something? Although Clodsparce likely won't mind being crit by those moves, unless it comes from something like a Choice Banded and/or Tera'd Stantler-Urishifu, or something with a similar Attack stat.
Well that is terrifying

 

[Fracterra]

Liligant-Hisui (Girafarig) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Close Combat
- Victory Dance
- Crunch

I just cooked up this set for after Pokemon Home Releases. Body Slam And CC For STAB, VD for set up, and Crunch for hitting Ghost Types. I Have Absolutely no idea how good this will be. Probobly a late game cleaner. Oh, and because i am kind, all pokemon leaked for DLC
https://www.pokeos.com/dex/?f=dlcleak&page=1
Feel free to theorymon your hearts out

Speaking Of DLC
Lilligant-Hisui (Electabuzz) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner
- Victory Dance
Bolt Beam Coverage, Close Combat For Turning Any Electric Steels From An Is To A Was Real Quick, given how electabuzz has slighty worse stats then Sneasel, But since the sneasles are probobly getting banned post DLC, it'll be good

Vivillion (Magmar) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Compound Eyes
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Scorching Sands
Great Stats, Never miss fire blast, hurricane, and scorching Sands, with quiver dance, this thing will be fire (pun very much intended
Also, metagross evolution will be good

the first build is for if girafirig is unbanned

 

[DosDogs]

Liligant-Hisui (Girafarig) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Close Combat
- Victory Dance
- Crunch

Girafarig is currently banned, I doubt we will unban it, also liligant will most likely be banned as well.

 

[Notagamer]

Liligant-Hisui (Girafarig) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Close Combat
- Victory Dance
- Crunch

I just cooked up this set for after Pokemon Home Releases. Body Slam And CC For STAB, VD for set up, and Crunch for hitting Ghost Types. I Have Absolutely no idea how good this will be. Probobly a late game cleaner. Oh, and because i am kind, all pokemon leaked for DLC
https://www.pokeos.com/dex/?f=dlcleak&page=1
Feel free to theorymon your hearts out

Speaking Of DLC
Lilligant-Hisui (Electabuzz) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner
- Victory Dance
Bolt Beam Coverage, Close Combat For Turning Any Electric Steels From An Is To A Was Real Quick, given how electabuzz has slighty worse stats then Sneasel, But since the sneasles are probobly getting banned post DLC, it'll be good

Vivillion (Magmar) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Compound Eyes
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Scorching Sands
Great Stats, Never miss fire blast, hurricane, and scorching Sands, with quiver dance, this thing will be fire (pun very much intended
Also, metagross evolution will be good

the first build is for if girafirig is unbanned

Electabuzz is a stage 2 mon and therefore can’t be evod into lilliganthisui.

 

[Dark Koopatrol]

I noticed that there are a couple non-crevos that could be good in CE so I'd like to share my thoughts on them.




Stats: 100 HP / 85 Atk / 80 Def / 165 SpA / 100 SpD / 150 Spe
Abilities: As One (Spectrier)
Type: Psychic / Ghost

Calyrex-Shadow is really fast. The only relevant mons that I can think of that outspeed it are Frogadier-Vivillon, Haunter-Vivillon, Sneasel-Hisui bases, and Lilligant-Hisui evos. It also has pretty high SpA. It also has Astral Barrage, which makes up for having lower SpA than Haunter-Vivillon, and Psyshock, which allows it to deal damage to special walls, most notably Chansey. This will probably be one of the best mons in the tier.




Stats: 92 HP / 150 Atk / 115 Def / 80 SpA / 115 SpD / 148 Spe
Abilities: Intrepid Sword
Type: Fairy / Steel

Zacian-Crowned is also very fast, and Intrepid Sword patches up its Atk (150 isn't low, but it definitely isn't high either). However, Intrepid Sword only activates once per game, which means that Zacian will probably not have the Intrepid Sword boost in the late game. It also can't use an item. Due to this, most cross-evolved Pokémon will probably be better than it, but it'll definitely be good for speed control.


That's pretty much it on non-cross-evolved Pokémon, but I'd also like to correct a few points on my previous post.

Corrections

Stat changes: +20 HP / +20 Atk / +20 Def / +15 SpA / +20 SpD / +15 Spe
Abilities: Overgrow / Grassy Surge
Type changes: None

This'll be bad but will at least be able to use Grassy Glide from Gen 8. Don't foresee it having much usage as an evo.

Stat changes: +30 HP / +40 Atk / +20 Def / +5 SpA / +10 SpD / +5 Spe
Abilities: Overgrow / Grassy Surge
Type changes: None

Like Thwackey, Grassy Glide allows it to have a niche but is otherwise bad.

Oops. They don't keep Grassy Glide, so they'll instead just be bad.

Stats: 70 HP / 92 Atk / 65 Def / 80 SpA / 55 SpD / 98 Spe
Type: Water

This seems like it could be problematic. It has slightly less Attack than Stantler, but makes up for it with its astounding 98 Speed. To put that in perspective, the only faster bases are Voltorb, Voltorb-Hisui, Sneasel-Hisui, and Drakloak, and the only relevant one there is Sneasel-Hisui. Additionally, as a Stage 1 Pokémon, it gets access to the fastest evos. So it already seems pretty scary, but it gets even worse. It gets Last Respects. So far Last Respects has proven to not be problematic, especially due to the prominence of Normal types, but I feel like this was also due to Houndstone being an underwhelming evo. Basculin-White-Striped, on the other hand, is a really good base, and although it doesn't normally get STAB on Last Respects, can easily fix that by evolving into Ceruledge, which will give it Ghost STAB, a good movepool, +75 Atk, and +50 Spe, allowing it to outspeed and nuke most Pokémon. This will probably end up being ban worthy.

My thoughts on this are mostly the same, but I forgot to mention that some evos, such as Ceruledge, grant it access to Close Combat to deal with Normal types, setting it apart from Houndstone. It can also use Crunch for Normal/Ghosts such as Zorua-Hisui and Stantledge. It'll probably also be broken without Last Respects.

Stat changes: +0 HP / +0 Atk / +0 Def / +0 SpA / +0 SpD / +0 Spe
Abilities: Shield Dust / Compound Eyes
Type changes: +Flying

For some reason /showevo vivillon-pokeball shows that it doesn't gain any stats. I assume that this is a bug, and if/when it gets fixed it'll literally be regular Vivillon but with a cool name. IG you can use three Vivillons now. (There's currently a bug where you can use multiple of the same Pokémon as an evolution so long as they're all different formes.)

Despite /showevo working with it (though it shows that it doesn't gain any stats), neither the CE teambuilder nor the /ce command recognize it as an evolution. However, /reevo treats it just like regular Vivillon. Does anybody know what the intended interaction is? Also, /showevo now shows Friend Guard as a possible Ability.

Screenshots

Stats: 55 HP / 95 Atk / 55 Def / 35 SpA / 75 SpD / 115 Spe
Type: Fighting / Poison

Fortunately, unlike regular Sneasel, it can't spam Technician Beat Up, but unfortunately, it'll probably end up being broken anyway. After all, it has the same stats as Sneasel and has STAB on Fighting moves, including Close Combat. Lilligant-Hisui will probably be a good evo.

Nothing here has really changed, but it is currently banned, likely as a result of banning Sneasel and not Sneasel-Base.

Stat changes: +40 HP / +10 Atk / +30 Def / -30 SpA / +5 SpD / -5 Spe
Abilities: Guts / Bulletproof / Unnerve
Type changes: Ground / Normal

If you want a Guts evo, use Hariyama or Flareon. If you want a Stage 3 Guts evo, use Luxray. Unless you for some reason really want an added Normal type, there's no reason to use this.

Ursaluna is actually better than Luxray for Facade Guts. Since Ursaring is banned, the Normal type with the highest Atk that can evolve into Luxray is Vigoroth, which only has 115 Atk when cross-evolved into Luxray. Since Ursaluna doesn't care about type, the best base is the mon with the highest Atk... which happens to be Ursaring. Thus, Ursaluna itself, not as an evo, is the best Stage 3 Facade Guts Pokémon. However, both Stantler-Hariyama and Rufflet-Hariyama have higher Atk stats, and Teddiursa-Hariyama has the same Atk. Ursaluna might have a niche in Trick Room though.

 

[Hiusi guy]

Petition to ban ogre/tera anyone? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9crossevolution-1886147513
I'm not salty trust, that's just disgusting damage

 

[Seito Chinchou]

Thought I'd share the team I was using back when CE was on the ladder.

The Mystery Manor

HP: 60 + 20 = 80
ATK: 60 + 40 = 100
DEF: 60 + 20 = 80
SPA: 85 + 40 = 125
SPD: 85 + 20 = 105
SPE: 85 + 40 = 125
BST: 435 + 180 = 615

Zoroark (Misdreavus) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam


HP: 60 + 25 = 85
ATK: 85 + 45 = 130
DEF: 42 + 20 = 62
SPA: 85 + 35 = 120
SPD: 42 + 20 = 62
SPE: 91 + 35 = 126
BST: 405 + 180 = 585

Zoroark-Hisui (Murkrow) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Drill Peck
- U-turn


HP: 250 + 30 = 280 (255 cap)
ATK: 5 + 30 = 35
DEF: 5 + 30 = 35
SPA: 35 + 60 = 95
SPD: 105 + 60 = 95
SPE: 50 + 30 = 80
BST: 450 + 240 = 690 nice

Gardevoir (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Teleport
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect


HP: 65 + 20 = 85
ATK: 125 + 20 = 145
DEF: 100 + 30 = 130
SPA: 60 + 25 = 85
SPD: 70 + 23 = 93
SPE: 70 + 16 = 86
BST: 490 + 134 = 524

Tinkaton (Bisharp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Gigaton Hammer
- Protect


HP: 50 + 0 = 50
ATK: 50 + 90 = 140
DEF: 45 + 20 = 65
SPA: 40 + 20 = 60
SPD: 45 + 0 = 45
SPE: 75 + 35 = 110
BST: 305 + 165 = 470

Breloom (Tandemaus) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Beat Up


HP: 30 + 105 = 135
ATK: 65 + 0 = 65
DEF: 100 + 0 = 100
SPA: 45 + 20 = 65
SPD: 25 + 40 = 65
SPE: 40 + 20 = 60
BST: 305 + 230 = 535

Chansey (Shellder) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Razor Shell
- Soft-Boiled
- Iron Defense
- Toxic Spikes

Explanation

It's mostly a fun team but it has some very potent elements that can win games on their own if piloted correctly. The true core of the team are the first four mons - I've experimented with a few other two backups but this has seen the most success overall. Tandeloom puts in a surprising amount of work, and Shellsey is a decent blanket physical check that works better than I expected but worse than I hoped.

The true true core of the team is the Zoreavus and Zorkrow duo with Tinkasharp at the back of the party. These pals pair together extremely well and a good fifth of my games played with this team have been won in the first 5 or so turns just by securing setup with one of the first two via the art of misdirection and either sweeping outright or dealing irreversible damage to the enemy team. Zoreavus' Ghost typing makes it immune to the Fighting moves that Tinkasharp will naturally bait, and Zorkrow's Flying type makes it immune to common Ground moves baited by Bisharp as well as being capable of applying strong offensive pressure to Fighting-types as well. Their type synergy is effective enough that even after the Illusion has been found out, the trio can still cover each other quite well. Zoreavus' Air Balloon pulls its own weight as well - its presence alone convinces the enemy that this is the real Bisharp, even after seeing the real one (if it didn't attack or get attacked) or revealing Zorkrow. After all, nobody would try and pull an Illusion gimmick twice on the same team, right?

This team is all about information, even more so than the game of Pokemon already is. The more you know about the enemy and less they know about you, the more potent this team becomes. Air Balloon helps that as well - seeing how the enemy reacts to it will tell you a LOT about what the enemy has or doesn't have to deal with Tinkasharp. Do they switch to a Fighting type? Do they try to pop the balloon? Paired with Zorkrow having invisible Ground immunity as well, enough practice and meta knowledge can help you scout entire sets and plan your tricks around them. Plus, even if Zoreavus' existence gets outed (such as Tinkasharp magically being immune to a Fighting attack), you'll often still be able to use Air Balloon as at least one free switch into an anticipated Ground move, and any sweeper loves a clean switch.

An additional benefit of having two aggressive sweepers is that even if they get shut down, Tinkasharp is a fantastic revenge killer and cleaner who can come in afterwards and wreak havoc with Gigaton Hammer and Sucker Punch. Swords Dance can punish the switches it forces, and Protect is a great utility move to both do extra scouting early as well as safely wait out Gigaton Hammer's down turns.

Chardevoir is an honorary fourth member of the core. Clearly not as essential as the primary 3, but absolutely pulls its weight and aids the synergy. Chardevoir works as an additional Fighting bait as second back of the line for Zoreavus if Tinkasharp goes down. More importantly though, as a team whose primary core is very offensive and not quite tanky (Bisharp has decent defensive stats naturally and Zordreavus' defensive stats are on the better side as far as offensive mons go as well, but the more highly offensive nature of the meta kind of negates it), having such a fantastic blanket check is excellent if you don't want to go full hyper-offense. Plus, Chardevoir has the incredible combination of WishPort with a better HP stat than Blissey. This basically guarantees a full heal on any mon in the party, which is extra useful as a tool for getting rid of one of the primary tools for distinguishing Illusion - inconsistent health bars. Protect is pretty necessary on any Wish mon, but here it also has the benefit of even more scouting, which is always an asset for this team. Chardevoir's special bulk is a bit worse than Blissey or Eviolite Chansey, but unlike them, it actually as a usable, if weak, defense stat (in the context of its massive HP pool). Enough so that investing in defense and carrying Wisp lets it tank a respectable amount of non-boosted physical hits, and punish physical attackers trying to switch in on it.

Shellsey is probably the weakest on the team, but it pairs well with Chardevoir defensively. Obviously, being a blanket physical and blanket special check make the two pair decently with that alone. However, Chardevoir's Wisp can shore up Shellsey's physical bulk enough that it can easily stone wall any and every physical attacker that gets burned, even if they have setup, by having enough room to come in and set up its own Acid Armor. Additionally, Shellsey quite conveniently resists the only type that Chardevoir can't Wisp, giving a bonus to the pair's synergy. Using Chansey's Soft-Boiled and (not quite) HP stat, Shellder's naturally high defense lets Shellsey get a lot of mileage. Toxic Spikes gives it more utility, and Serene Grace Razor Shell gives it offensive pressure on the mons that may try to sit in on it. The attack stat may not be high, but eventually the guaranteed defense drops every turn WILL wear away at the opponent, especially if they can't do very much back.

Tandeloom doesn't have much in the way of strong direct synergies, and despite being stronger overall than Shellsey, would probably be my first pick to get rid of. It does benefit from the team but doesn't offer much, and it's primarily here because this was originally a for fun team and it just ended up working better than I anticipated. Clearly, Technician Loaded Dice Population Bomb is strong once Maushold gets an actual attack stat, and a pretty good one at that. This thing can tear holes in teams if not respected, even including ones it has no business doing damage to. Additionally, STAB Low Kick puts pressure on Rock and Steel types trying to resist the Normal nuke, and Technician raises the reliability of the move significantly (and funnily makes 60 BP weights better than 80 BP ones). Technician Beat Up also exists as a coverage option for taking out squishier Ghost types, or punishing a predicted Ghost switch-in since it's fast enough to get two off on a lot of targets. Not to mention, even when Beat Up fails you, the rest of the team has 2 and a half counters for Ghost types already, which paired with Beat Up's mechanics, makes Tandeloom the ideal opener for the team.

That being said, the team's biggest weakness is problematic Fighting types who can deal with Zoreavus. There's three Fighting weaknesses on the team and one of the two offensive checks to Fighting is neutral to it defensively. If I were to rebuild the team a bit more seriously next time around I would find a better physical wall than Shellsey, preferably a Fairy type.

 

[Gimlaf]

Thought I'd share the team I was using back when CE was on the ladder.

The Mystery Manor

HP: 60 + 20 = 80
ATK: 60 + 40 = 100
DEF: 60 + 20 = 80
SPA: 85 + 40 = 125
SPD: 85 + 20 = 105
SPE: 85 + 40 = 125
BST: 435 + 180 = 615

Zoroark (Misdreavus) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam


HP: 60 + 25 = 85
ATK: 85 + 45 = 130
DEF: 42 + 20 = 62
SPA: 85 + 35 = 120
SPD: 42 + 20 = 62
SPE: 91 + 35 = 126
BST: 405 + 180 = 585

Zoroark-Hisui (Murkrow) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Drill Peck
- U-turn


HP: 250 + 30 = 280 (255 cap)
ATK: 5 + 30 = 35
DEF: 5 + 30 = 35
SPA: 35 + 60 = 95
SPD: 105 + 60 = 95
SPE: 50 + 30 = 80
BST: 450 + 240 = 690 nice

Gardevoir (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Teleport
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect


HP: 65 + 20 = 85
ATK: 125 + 20 = 145
DEF: 100 + 30 = 130
SPA: 60 + 25 = 85
SPD: 70 + 23 = 93
SPE: 70 + 16 = 86
BST: 490 + 134 = 524

Tinkaton (Bisharp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Gigaton Hammer
- Protect


HP: 50 + 0 = 50
ATK: 50 + 90 = 140
DEF: 45 + 20 = 65
SPA: 40 + 20 = 60
SPD: 45 + 0 = 45
SPE: 75 + 35 = 110
BST: 305 + 165 = 470

Breloom (Tandemaus) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Beat Up


HP: 30 + 105 = 135
ATK: 65 + 0 = 65
DEF: 100 + 0 = 100
SPA: 45 + 20 = 65
SPD: 25 + 40 = 65
SPE: 40 + 20 = 60
BST: 305 + 230 = 535

Chansey (Shellder) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Razor Shell
- Soft-Boiled
- Iron Defense
- Toxic Spikes

Explanation

It's mostly a fun team but it has some very potent elements that can win games on their own if piloted correctly. The true core of the team are the first four mons - I've experimented with a few other two backups but this has seen the most success overall. Tandeloom puts in a surprising amount of work, and Shellsey is a decent blanket physical check that works better than I expected but worse than I hoped.

The true true core of the team is the Zoreavus and Zorkrow duo with Tinkasharp at the back of the party. These pals pair together extremely well and a good fifth of my games played with this team have been won in the first 5 or so turns just by securing setup with one of the first two via the art of misdirection and either sweeping outright or dealing irreversible damage to the enemy team. Zoreavus' Ghost typing makes it immune to the Fighting moves that Tinkasharp will naturally bait, and Zorkrow's Flying type makes it immune to common Ground moves baited by Bisharp as well as being capable of applying strong offensive pressure to Fighting-types as well. Their type synergy is effective enough that even after the Illusion has been found out, the trio can still cover each other quite well. Zoreavus' Air Balloon pulls its own weight as well - its presence alone convinces the enemy that this is the real Bisharp, even after seeing the real one (if it didn't attack or get attacked) or revealing Zorkrow. After all, nobody would try and pull an Illusion gimmick twice on the same team, right?

This team is all about information, even more so than the game of Pokemon already is. The more you know about the enemy and less they know about you, the more potent this team becomes. Air Balloon helps that as well - seeing how the enemy reacts to it will tell you a LOT about what the enemy has or doesn't have to deal with Tinkasharp. Do they switch to a Fighting type? Do they try to pop the balloon? Paired with Zorkrow having invisible Ground immunity as well, enough practice and meta knowledge can help you scout entire sets and plan your tricks around them. Plus, even if Zoreavus' existence gets outed (such as Tinkasharp magically being immune to a Fighting attack), you'll often still be able to use Air Balloon as at least one free switch into an anticipated Ground move, and any sweeper loves a clean switch.

An additional benefit of having two aggressive sweepers is that even if they get shut down, Tinkasharp is a fantastic revenge killer and cleaner who can come in afterwards and wreak havoc with Gigaton Hammer and Sucker Punch. Swords Dance can punish the switches it forces, and Protect is a great utility move to both do extra scouting early as well as safely wait out Gigaton Hammer's down turns.

Chardevoir is an honorary fourth member of the core. Clearly not as essential as the primary 3, but absolutely pulls its weight and aids the synergy. Chardevoir works as an additional Fighting bait as second back of the line for Zoreavus if Tinkasharp goes down. More importantly though, as a team whose primary core is very offensive and not quite tanky (Bisharp has decent defensive stats naturally and Zordreavus' defensive stats are on the better side as far as offensive mons go as well, but the more highly offensive nature of the meta kind of negates it), having such a fantastic blanket check is excellent if you don't want to go full hyper-offense. Plus, Chardevoir has the incredible combination of WishPort with a better HP stat than Blissey. This basically guarantees a full heal on any mon in the party, which is extra useful as a tool for getting rid of one of the primary tools for distinguishing Illusion - inconsistent health bars. Protect is pretty necessary on any Wish mon, but here it also has the benefit of even more scouting, which is always an asset for this team. Chardevoir's special bulk is a bit worse than Blissey or Eviolite Chansey, but unlike them, it actually as a usable, if weak, defense stat (in the context of its massive HP pool). Enough so that investing in defense and carrying Wisp lets it tank a respectable amount of non-boosted physical hits, and punish physical attackers trying to switch in on it.

Shellsey is probably the weakest on the team, but it pairs well with Chardevoir defensively. Obviously, being a blanket physical and blanket special check make the two pair decently with that alone. However, Chardevoir's Wisp can shore up Shellsey's physical bulk enough that it can easily stone wall any and every physical attacker that gets burned, even if they have setup, by having enough room to come in and set up its own Acid Armor. Additionally, Shellsey quite conveniently resists the only type that Chardevoir can't Wisp, giving a bonus to the pair's synergy. Using Chansey's Soft-Boiled and (not quite) HP stat, Shellder's naturally high defense lets Shellsey get a lot of mileage. Toxic Spikes gives it more utility, and Serene Grace Razor Shell gives it offensive pressure on the mons that may try to sit in on it. The attack stat may not be high, but eventually the guaranteed defense drops every turn WILL wear away at the opponent, especially if they can't do very much back.

Tandeloom doesn't have much in the way of strong direct synergies, and despite being stronger overall than Shellsey, would probably be my first pick to get rid of. It does benefit from the team but doesn't offer much, and it's primarily here because this was originally a for fun team and it just ended up working better than I anticipated. Clearly, Technician Loaded Dice Population Bomb is strong once Maushold gets an actual attack stat, and a pretty good one at that. This thing can tear holes in teams if not respected, even including ones it has no business doing damage to. Additionally, STAB Low Kick puts pressure on Rock and Steel types trying to resist the Normal nuke, and Technician raises the reliability of the move significantly (and funnily makes 60 BP weights better than 80 BP ones). Technician Beat Up also exists as a coverage option for taking out squishier Ghost types, or punishing a predicted Ghost switch-in since it's fast enough to get two off on a lot of targets. Not to mention, even when Beat Up fails you, the rest of the team has 2 and a half counters for Ghost types already, which paired with Beat Up's mechanics, makes Tandeloom the ideal opener for the team.

That being said, the team's biggest weakness is problematic Fighting types who can deal with Zoreavus. There's three Fighting weaknesses on the team and one of the two offensive checks to Fighting is neutral to it defensively. If I were to rebuild the team a bit more seriously next time around I would find a better physical wall than Shellsey, preferably a Fairy type.

I like the idea of this team, and using Illusion in CE is interesting, since it's practically impossible for the opponent to see it coming. However there is one problem for this team specifically, and that is using Tinksharp as the disguise.

You see, Tinksharp is well known, especially among more experienced players, for using Mold Breaker to get past Unaware walls. Mold Breaker announces itself when a mon with it enters the field. Sending out one of your Illusion mons disguised as Tinksharp will not announce said Mold Breaker, which can give the opponent the idea that something isn't right.
I remember facing that team not too long ago, and the lack of Mold Breaker immediately made me suspicious (but then my first thought was it being a weird Air Balloon Pickpocket set, so I guess it still worked in your favor, lol). Stealth Rocks can mess up the mindgames as well, as seeing the supposed Tinksharp taking 1/8 of its health instead of 1/16 is also a telling sign. I guess in Zorkrow's case it can at least trick the opponent into thinking that it's a Boots Tinksharp.

Overall it's just something to consider, if you wanted to rebuild the team.
(and a small nitpick: Base stats are capped out at 255, so Chansey-Gardevoir has 255 HP instead of 280.)

 

[Seito Chinchou]

I like the idea of this team, and using Illusion in CE is interesting, since it's practically impossible for the opponent to see it coming. However there is one problem for this team specifically, and that is using Tinksharp as the disguise.

You see, Tinksharp is well known, especially among more experienced players, for using Mold Breaker to get past Unaware walls. Mold Breaker announces itself when a mon with it enters the field. Sending out one of your Illusion mons disguised as Tinksharp will not announce said Mold Breaker, which can give the opponent the idea that something isn't right.
I remember facing that team not too long ago, and the lack of Mold Breaker immediately made me suspicious (but then my first thought was it being a weird Air Balloon Pickpocket set, so I guess it still worked in your favor, lol). Stealth Rocks can mess up the mindgames as well, as seeing the supposed Tinksharp taking 1/8 of its health instead of 1/16 is also a telling sign. I guess in Zorkrow's case it can at least trick the opponent into thinking that it's a Boots Tinksharp.

Overall it's just something to consider, if you wanted to rebuild the team.
(and a small nitpick: Base stats are capped out at 255, so Chansey-Gardevoir has 255 HP instead of 280.)

Ah! You were the one I faced earlier today in the tourney, who I got decimated by because all my tera types were messed up for some reason, and I was not at all anticipating your Qwilfish to have Close Combat lol (underestimating the bulk of your Misdreavus set didn't help either).

Also, I was actually unaware of that fact about Bisharp. It seems obvious in hindsight, but in my defense, it doesn't seem like anybody I ever faced on ladder was aware of it either xd. Probably simply due to the fact that nobody is at all prepared for it or looking for it. But that's a good thing to note now, and something to account for if/when I decide to give this a more serious attempt. Kind of unfortunate considering how well the types pair otherwise, but I'm sure I can find another replacement. It would be necessary for the team to be convincing enough to trick high ladder, at the very least. Murkrow is already a good base for other mons, and Zoreavus has a ton of possible pairs.

Also, I thought the cap for base stats was 248? Clearly, the cap is different for HP due to Chansey and Blissey, but I don't think I've ever been told what it was. Good to know! (I wonder if any combination can reach over 248 in another stat )

 

[PQRDG]

Hey all. Glad to see there are still conversation having regarding this OM in this thread. We would appreciate if you make a large post with long blocks of text if you can hide parts of it in spoilers, especially if you are showing off full teams and going into details about them. This will help keep the thread de-cluttered and make it easier for people scrolling through to read the posts. I would appreciate it if some of you would edit your posts accordingly (and I will be going back through some of mine to do the same to not be hypocritical).

In addition, regarding the above post, 255 is the stat cap. It is often very hard to hit that, I believe the only combinations that hit those are Chansey bases for HP, or something with high defense, such as Onix/Avalugg last generation. It is often very hard for anything else to even approach that max stat in anything else, as very few unevolved Pokemon have a base stat high enough to get bumped up to that 255 threshold.

 

[Seito Chinchou]

Hey all. Glad to see there are still conversation having regarding this OM in this thread. We would appreciate if you make a large post with long blocks of text if you can hide parts of it in spoilers, especially if you are showing off full teams and going into details about them. This will help keep the thread de-cluttered and make it easier for people scrolling through to read the posts. I would appreciate it if some of you would edit your posts accordingly (and I will be going back through some of mine to do the same to not be hypocritical).

In addition, regarding the above post, 255 is the stat cap. It is often very hard to hit that, I believe the only combinations that hit those are Chansey bases for HP, or something with high defense, such as Onix/Avalugg last generation. It is often very hard for anything else to even approach that max stat in anything else, as very few unevolved Pokemon have a base stat high enough to get bumped up to that 255 threshold.

Oh, will do! Also - I could have sworn that all non-HP stats got capped at 248, since values over that caused overflow. Or was that fixed in Gen 9?

 

[Gimlaf]

my tera types were messed up for some reason

Yeah, it's a strange quirk with the teambuilder, changing the tera types in battle. It works fine with imported teams, so using the import/export function on any CE team fixes them.

I was not at all anticipating your Qwilfish to have Close Combat lol

I like my set up sweepers to smack the omnipresent Clodsparce as hard as possible (or at least force it to tera), so Close Combat is always convenient for me, lol.

In regards to Bisharp:
You wouldn't have to replace it entirely; there is also the option of just taking a different evolution. It doesn't solve the issue of Stealth Rock damage giving away possible Illusion tricks, but that at least can be played around by hazard removal and/or preventing them from being set in the first place. And Bisharp is of course not strictly locked into using Tinkaton as its evolution. A Tsareena evolution might work just fine for example, which comes with the added bonus of dissuading your opponent from using priority moves on the Illusion mons for as long as they are being fooled by them.

 

[PQRDG]

Oh, will do! Also - I could have sworn that all non-HP stats got capped at 248, since values over that caused overflow. Or was that fixed in Gen 9?

I had to go back to the origin of the OM to find this, but the introductory page notes the following:

• You can't go over base 255 or under 1 on any stat. Combinations that produce Pokémon with negative base stats or over 255 are banned.

This was changed in later generations to be a stat cap at those exact numbers, instead of making the evolution illegal if the numbers reached that threshold. As per above, hitting 255 is so rare for something that isn't Chansey, that it probably never comes up for most players. Onix was already not that great of a Pokemon in previous generations, and so Onix/Avalugg wasn't an evolution you would plan on seeing.

I am willing to let the coders correct me on this in case I am wrong, but the fact the stat caps at 255 is likely due to math/coding. 256 is 2^8, so the values from 0-255 are probably the binary restrictions for the value of the stat. You will occasionally (but rarely) see this with other metagames that mess with your stats, such as Mix and Mega or Re-Evolution, where the stats also have that same min/max limit.

 

[PQRDG]

Welcome to the first wave of Post-Home bans, everyone. This slate covers the problems from the past, straight from Hisui:

White-Striped Basculin and Hisuian Sneasel are now banned from Cross Evolution!
​

Hisuian Braviary and Hisuian Lilligant were also voted on to have their evolutions restricted, but neither received the votes at this time. As per usual, a Pokemon needed a > 50% vote in order to be banned.

	anaconja	DosDogs	in the hills	PQRDG	smellslikememe	Zuldaar	ACTION
	ABS	BAN	ABS	BAN	BAN	BAN	4-0-2 BAN
	ABS	BAN	ABS	BAN	BAN	BAN	4-0-2 BAN
	ABS	BAN	ABS	ABS	ABS	DNB	1-1-4 NO BAN
	ABS	DNB	ABS	DNB	DNB	DNB	0-4-2 NO BAN

Explanations:

Basculin

Basculin became the number one threat the moment the Pokemon Home compatibility dropped on Showdown. Not only was it faster and stronger than a lot of the metagame around it, but its native access to Last Respects made it terrifying when paired with the premier ghost-type evolution, Ceruledge. Being a strong water type meant it could also fit in well with other evolutions, such as Barraskewda, or good general offensive utility, such as Lokix.

Basculin's existence made it practically mandatory to have one on any team. As such banning it felt like the reasonable choice. Now, some of you may be wondering, "Well why didn't you just ban Last Respects?" That is a valid question. However, Basculin had a lot of good tools in its kit even without the move. As for who has the move with White-Striped Basculin banned, that is limited to using either Houndstone or Basculegion as an evolution, neither of which are meta-defining. The council believes that Last Respects can be reasonable in this Uber-level metagame, but a base Pokemon like Basculin is not.

Sneasel

No one should be surprised to see Sneasel also get the banhammer. Having the same stats as its Johtonian counterpart, with a coveted Fighting typing, allowed it to be a scary offensive sweeper. Thanks to strong moves like Gunk Shot and Close Combat, this form of Sneasel proved to be a scary stage 1 Pokemon that had the potential for a lot of solid evolutions. While its toolkit was very different from its other form, we found that it could pull off some similar tricks, and as such decided it needed to go.

Lilligant

Many of you will not be surprised to see that Lilligant got voted on in this slate. Giving 70 Attack, 75 Speed, a choice of two solid abilities in Chlorophyll and Hustle, and a solid signature move in Victory Dance, Hisuian Lilligant has a lot of tools that seem scary on paper. However, the council does not currently see it as of major of a threat. We will still be keeping an eye on this to see how effective it is in a post-Basculin world, but at this time we will let it remain.

Braviary

Braviary popped up on our radar for similar reasons to Lilligant: a solid increase to its Special Attack, a good ability in Tinted Lens, and a good new signature move in Esper Wing. However, unlike Lilligant, Hisuian Braviary was universally seen by the council as not a problem. There are two main reasons for this. The first is that this evolution is very slow, so setting up with it, especially with the relatively weak Esper Wing, is not easy. The second is that Braviary gives the Psychic type, a type that is harder to use defensively. We will of course be keeping an eye on this but we believe it will be a healthy part of the tier.

And that concludes this set of bans. To reiterate: Basculin-White-Striped and Sneasel-Hisui are now banned from Cross Evolution. Tagging Kris to implement, thanks for all you do chief, lovely to see you. See you all next time!

 

[IMakeNoSense]

Clodsire (Bonsly) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

DOS YOU MADE A CLODSLY TEAM??? YEAHHHH I KNEW YOU HAD IT IN YA!!!

CLODSLY > CLODSPARCE LETS GOOOOOO

 

[DosDogs]

CLODSLY > CLODSPARCE LETS GOOOOOO

I can list more reasons for why this is incorrect than I can for any other topic.

Anyway, here's a cool set I came up with (warning, its not quite as good as clodsparce)

Hariyama (Qwilfish-Hisui) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake/Headlong Rush
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Crunch

SFLO Qwilfish-h~Hariyama, screw guts, STAB SF life orb boosted Gunk Shot hits stupid hard, as does Crunch. I usually run this on a webs team, so if you're using it without webs you could opt to run max HP instead of speed. This thing can break tru some serious walls, yes, even Fur Coat Dunsparce, thanks to swords dance (Clodsparce dies too- 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Qwilfish-Hisui Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 302-356 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Also you can switch in on Knock Off's, losing life orb sucks, but it's not as crippling as losing flame orb before you can proc Guts. This is definitely my favorite Qwilfish-H set so far.

 

[IMakeNoSense]

Ooh look! A Link!
---
I put together a CE Viability Spreadsheet! It'll show us the "best Pokémon/evolutions" in the metagame, as well as help any new CE players build teams. I had help putting together the list, but feedback is still encouraged so we can get the ultimate CE rankings.

(No arguments that Bisharp is the most influential Pokémon in the metagame, right?)

 

[Gimlaf]

Ooh look! A Link!
---
I put together a CE Viability Spreadsheet! It'll show us the "best Pokémon/evolutions" in the metagame, as well as help any new CE players build teams. I had help putting together the list, but feedback is still encouraged so we can get the ultimate CE rankings.

(No arguments that Bisharp is the most influential Pokémon in the metagame, right?)
View attachment 537425View attachment 537426

Viability Rankings letsgooo!

I've skimmed through them, and I might as well give some proposals of my own (mostly lower tier things, though):

Ranking changes for bases

A -> S. It deserves to be right next to Stantler: It has the same base attack and speed, carries a good typing (which also gives it a STAB Crunch to deal with Ceruledge evos), and has access to Swords Dance no matter what evo you choose for it. There are at least 3 viable offensive evos (Ceruledge, Lilligant-H and Hariyama), but bulkier sets are not entirely out of the question either (I'm running this with Clodsire, which I might go into detail later, and I've heard about Toxapex evos as well, though I can't verify their viability).

F -> E. If you want to have unblockable Rapid Spin, Bergmite-Sylveon is as good as you can go. 95/100/100 bulk isn't horrible, espeically since you trade the Ice type for Fairy. Far from good, but has the tiniest of niches, maybe. (Actually, Quaxwell-Decidueye-h has Scrappy Rapid Spin, so theres another option for unblockable spin I suppose. But that's on the frailer side and not fast either.)

F -> E. If Surskit is E, I feel there could be an argument for this as well. You'd probably only ever use Tarountula as a suicide webs setter with a Prankster evo, but its advantage over Surskit there is access to Spikes and Memento.

E -> D? I'm not fully sure about this myself. But the bulk isn't terrible and it has Shore Up for recovery purposes. Then there's of course the option to give this a Vaporeon evo so that it can switch into Specs Kyogre.

Ranking changes for evos

D -> E/F. Reasoning: just don't. Jokes aside, the only reason to use this is for Truant Skill Swap, and that does not feel worthy of D at all. At least not, when your mon is Tinkatuff-Slaking, which doesn't even have impressive stats to justify the massively telegraphed first turn setup of Skill Swap.

E -> D. You're doing my boi Krooksharp dirty! Yes, that proposal is fueled by personal bias, but this gives solid bulk for a stage 3 evo, which can be bolstered further by Intimidate. Moreover Krookodile learns both Earthquake and Close Combat, giving options to hit Clodsparce super effective both before and after Tera, which is important if you want to use Moxie instead of Intimidate. That being said, I've only ever used this evo with Bisharp (but then again, the description of D-Tier 'may have a rare, one-off set that makes this somewhat usable' feels fitting for this).

F -> E. yes, I still remember having faced someone with Hattsparce on ladder, even though that was months ago. Obviously it grats meager stats, but I feel like Magic Bounce alone could bump it up to E. Maybe someone out there wants to use that instead of the Psychic-type granting Espeon.

/ C -> D? As I mentioned a while ago, these two have their signature moves going for them, but has anyone actually used these evos so far? Because I don't recall having ever seen them.

/ D/E? Not really a ranking proposal here, but is there a significant difference between the two that causes the viability difference? Zoro-H has Will-O-Wisp I suppose (and Bitter Malice, if you want to run this over Shadow Ball for some reason), but at the same time, regular Zoroark has Sucker Punch.

Ranking changes for non-CE mons

Nope, got nothing there to add. I'd be tempted to propose Caly-S to S rank, because it gets silly with Tera, but I can see it being A.

 

[IMakeNoSense]

A -> S. It deserves to be right next to Stantler: It has the same base attack and speed, carries a good typing (which also gives it a STAB Crunch to deal with Ceruledge evos), and has access to Swords Dance no matter what evo you choose for it. There are at least 3 viable offensive evos (Ceruledge, Lilligant-H and Hariyama), but bulkier sets are not entirely out of the question either (I'm running this with Clodsire, which I might go into detail later, and I've heard about Toxapex evos as well, though I can't verify their viability).

I could go either way here. I think it's impactful enough to warrant S, but it's saying it's just as good as Bisharp and Dunsparce. Is that true? If so, let's put it in S.

F -> E. If Surskit is E, I feel there could be an argument for this as well. You'd probably only ever use Tarountula as a suicide webs setter with a Prankster evo, but its advantage over Surskit there is access to Spikes and Memento.

You give Tarountula too much credit IMO, it's base BST is meager, there's not a solid Prankster evolution for it to evolve into besides the mediocre Grafaiai, and honestly if you wanted to pass Spikes and Memento you could find better options than small yarn bug. Surskit is just the better option, or alternatively, just use either of their solid evolutions. Spidops gives solid defenses and you still keep Spikes + Memento if you *really* want to lose a Pokemon, or Masquerain can Intimidate + set Webs.
tl;dr, no please do NOT use tarountula

E -> D? I'm not fully sure about this myself. But the bulk isn't terrible and it has Shore Up for recovery purposes. Then there's of course the option to give this a Vaporeon evo so that it can switch into Specs Kyogre.

I agree, I've used Sandygast before to some nice results, albeit pre-home. I could see it in D due to the fact that Ghost type is in a favorable spot to retype (like Sylveon or Vaporeon) into a better combination. It's Kyogre role is also very useful, and I'd even like to put it in C if it gets used more.

---

D -> E/F. Reasoning: just don't. Jokes aside, the only reason to use this is for Truant Skill Swap, and that does not feel worthy of D at all. At least not, when your mon is Tinkatuff-Slaking, which doesn't even have impressive stats to justify the massively telegraphed first turn setup of Skill Swap.

Understandable, that's where it was before we considered Tinkatuff-Slaking. I'd rather put it in E.

E -> D. You're doing my boi Krooksharp dirty! Yes, that proposal is fueled by personal bias, but this gives solid bulk for a stage 3 evo, which can be bolstered further by Intimidate. Moreover Krookodile learns both Earthquake and Close Combat, giving options to hit Clodsparce super effective both before and after Tera, which is important if you want to use Moxie instead of Intimidate. That being said, I've only ever used this evo with Bisharp (but then again, the description of D-Tier 'may have a rare, one-off set that makes this somewhat usable' feels fitting for this).

TBH, I don't think I've ever seen you use this set, let alone anyone else. I gave it E only because it just give much of anything of value that you can't get from a Sandile/Krokorok base. You'd rather evolve into something better IMO. Krookodile, in my head, only really gives Power Trip, which could be a niche set to setup Pokemon, but at the same time, why wouldn't you just use Corviknight for Power Trip?

F -> E. yes, I still remember having faced someone with Hattsparce on ladder, even though that was months ago. Obviously it grats meager stats, but I feel like Magic Bounce alone could bump it up to E. Maybe someone out there wants to use that instead of the Psychic-type granting Espeon.

I can see Hattrem going into E. I could lean either way though, as why wouldn't you just run Espeon over Hattrem as an evolution and just take the Psychic type for better stats?

/ C -> D? As I mentioned a while ago, these two have their signature moves going for them, but has anyone actually used these evos so far? Because I don't recall having ever seen them.

Yeah... that's true. On paper these guys are really cool but no one's used them. I wanted to at least give them a C because I think their potential is really high, but it's definitely been slept on. (Psst! Random reader! Here's a call-to-action!)

 

[Gimlaf]

I could go either way here. I think it's impactful enough to warrant S, but it's saying it's just as good as Bisharp and Dunsparce. Is that true? If so, let's put it in S.

Is Stantler as good as Bisharp and Dunsparce? Since that one is S, it probably is. And by extension, I'd say that also applies to Qwilfish-h, since I'm personally seeing it as being as good as Stantler (at least for physical sets, which Stantler primarily runs). Of course I'm interested to hear what others have to say there.

TBH, I don't think I've ever seen you use this set, let alone anyone else. I gave it E only because it just give much of anything of value that you can't get from a Sandile/Krokorok base. You'd rather evolve into something better IMO. Krookodile, in my head, only really gives Power Trip, which could be a niche set to setup Pokemon, but at the same time, why wouldn't you just use Corviknight for Power Trip?

To be fair, I haven't used it much in post-home so far (though I have a bulky attacker Krooksharp on my latest post-home team), but it was part of my Webs team before home. Being naturally faster than Tinksharp while resisting Dark and Steel while also threatening to nail its x4 Fighting weakness were my initial reasons to use it. Acting as a Moxie sweeper under Webs that hits Clodsparce hard was just a bonus.

I don't understand how a Krookodile evo can be compared to using a Sandile/Krokorok base; the things you get are a decent amount of stats (being the 13th highest BST increase among the stage 3 evos) and two useful abilities, in Intimidate or Moxie. Admittedly, Salamence may work better if you want to use Moxie on a stage 3, but that has its own caveats of lowering defense and giving a Flying type. (Or maybe you want to use Power Trip with Moxie, which probably sounds funnier that it actually is, lol).
But I get it, Krookodile is in a spot where it doesn't give that much of an offensive power increase, yet its bulk can't be utilized well either, due to most Stage 2 bases not having recovery, which ultimately forces Krookodile evos into a sort of bulky attacker role to have some sort of relevance. I'm still holding fast onto my Krooksharp though!

I can see Hattrem going into E. I could lean either way though, as why wouldn't you just run Espeon over Hattrem as an evolution and just take the Psychic type for better stats?

because most of Espeon's stats are in its SpA and Speed. It actually gives comparable bulk to Hattrem, so if one really doesn't mind being slow and passive whilst wanting to avoid the Psychic type, it might be an option. But I can also see it either way tbh.

---

With those out of the way, time for another episode of me burning down the kitchen! (I haven't posted a set in ages...)


Clodfish
Typing: Dark/Poison
Stats: 140/125/100/75/130/90

My deliciously bad set, lol

Clodsire (Qwilfish-Hisui) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Barb Barrage
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

This set was the result of me trying to find something that switches into Clodsparce and beats it 1v1, without exceptions (unless there is a Clodsparce set I'm forgetting), and without being annoyed by Toxic.
The attack investment is needed to come out ahead in a possible damage race against Clodsparce. But how does it work?
Easy, Clodfish makes use of its Poison typing and Unaware to just...wall Clodsparce. Meanwhile it harasses its opponent with Barb Barrage, or in case of Tera Poison, hits it with Earthquakes to draw out its Recover PP. Stockpile Body Press sets are helpless against it, as they can't ever damage race this; Coil EQ ones are more threatening, but not impossible.

Some calcs below (Barb Barrage against a poisoned Clodsparce (yes, this assumes that a prior Barb Barrage procced the poison), EQ against Tera Poison, and what Clodsparce does in return)

Wall of calcs

Calcs: Clodfish against full def Body Press Clodsparce:

252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Barb Barrage (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 168-198 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage

252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Dunsparce: 188-222 (33.9 - 40%) -- 33.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 73-86 (15 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Body Press damage is a non-issue. If they Tera Poison in an attempt to avoid the poison from Barb Barrage, then EQ does the trick. However it does take most, if not all, of Earthquake's PP to go through all 8 Recovers (on average doing just over 30% per EQ after accounting for Leftovers recovery).

Calcs: Clodfish against full SpD Earthquake Clodsparce:

252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Barb Barrage (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dunsparce: 240-283 (43.3 - 51%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage

252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Poison Dunsparce: 268-316 (48.3 - 57%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Dunsparce Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 146-172 (30.1 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

While this set is more threatening to Clodfish, the damage is still recoverable, and more importantly, Clodfish deals back considerably more. This matchup gets more awkward however if Clodfish doesn't land a poison on the first few barrages and gets forced to recover against the Earthquake damage.

Calcs: Clodfish against full def Earthquake Clodsparce:

252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Barb Barrage (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 168-198 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage

252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Dunsparce: 188-222 (33.9 - 40%) -- 33.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Dunsparce Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 146-172 (30.1 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Okay but why would you run full def Coil Clodsparce. In any case, even in this scenario Clodfish does a tiny bit more damage, which should in theory allow it to come out on top. Heck, Clodfish can attempt to PP stall out Clodsparce's Earthquake PP as well.

Outside of this farily specific role, Clodfish is Clodsparce lite. It's less bulky (but doesn't need Tera to prevent being hit by Toxic) but deals more damage right away. And since it beats Clodsparce 1v1, it is clearly superior. Oh, and it helped me win the finals of a roomtour just minutes ago, lol.

 

[Dark Koopatrol]

Viability Rankings letsgooo!

I've skimmed through them, and I might as well give some proposals of my own (mostly lower tier things, though):

Ranking changes for bases

A -> S. It deserves to be right next to Stantler: It has the same base attack and speed, carries a good typing (which also gives it a STAB Crunch to deal with Ceruledge evos), and has access to Swords Dance no matter what evo you choose for it. There are at least 3 viable offensive evos (Ceruledge, Lilligant-H and Hariyama), but bulkier sets are not entirely out of the question either (I'm running this with Clodsire, which I might go into detail later, and I've heard about Toxapex evos as well, though I can't verify their viability).

F -> E. If you want to have unblockable Rapid Spin, Bergmite-Sylveon is as good as you can go. 95/100/100 bulk isn't horrible, espeically since you trade the Ice type for Fairy. Far from good, but has the tiniest of niches, maybe. (Actually, Quaxwell-Decidueye-h has Scrappy Rapid Spin, so theres another option for unblockable spin I suppose. But that's on the frailer side and not fast either.)

F -> E. If Surskit is E, I feel there could be an argument for this as well. You'd probably only ever use Tarountula as a suicide webs setter with a Prankster evo, but its advantage over Surskit there is access to Spikes and Memento.

E -> D? I'm not fully sure about this myself. But the bulk isn't terrible and it has Shore Up for recovery purposes. Then there's of course the option to give this a Vaporeon evo so that it can switch into Specs Kyogre.

Ranking changes for evos

D -> E/F. Reasoning: just don't. Jokes aside, the only reason to use this is for Truant Skill Swap, and that does not feel worthy of D at all. At least not, when your mon is Tinkatuff-Slaking, which doesn't even have impressive stats to justify the massively telegraphed first turn setup of Skill Swap.

E -> D. You're doing my boi Krooksharp dirty! Yes, that proposal is fueled by personal bias, but this gives solid bulk for a stage 3 evo, which can be bolstered further by Intimidate. Moreover Krookodile learns both Earthquake and Close Combat, giving options to hit Clodsparce super effective both before and after Tera, which is important if you want to use Moxie instead of Intimidate. That being said, I've only ever used this evo with Bisharp (but then again, the description of D-Tier 'may have a rare, one-off set that makes this somewhat usable' feels fitting for this).

F -> E. yes, I still remember having faced someone with Hattsparce on ladder, even though that was months ago. Obviously it grats meager stats, but I feel like Magic Bounce alone could bump it up to E. Maybe someone out there wants to use that instead of the Psychic-type granting Espeon.

/ C -> D? As I mentioned a while ago, these two have their signature moves going for them, but has anyone actually used these evos so far? Because I don't recall having ever seen them.

/ D/E? Not really a ranking proposal here, but is there a significant difference between the two that causes the viability difference? Zoro-H has Will-O-Wisp I suppose (and Bitter Malice, if you want to run this over Shadow Ball for some reason), but at the same time, regular Zoroark has Sucker Punch.

Ranking changes for non-CE mons

Nope, got nothing there to add. I'd be tempted to propose Caly-S to S rank, because it gets silly with Tera, but I can see it being A.

I agree with all of these and don't think that you missed any points for any of these aside from the fact that Sandygast is a decent option if you want a spinblocker with recovery. I have a few more suggestions too.

Suggestions

C -> E. I just haven't seen any good sets with this. In fact, the only Skeledirge crevos that I've seen at all are Primeape-Skeledirges, which are worse Rage Fist abusers than Primeape-Dragonite. There isn't really a reason to use this. It barely gives you any stats, Ceruledge is generally a better Ghost if you want a spinblocker, and Clodsire is much better if you want an unaware mon.

A -> S? I'm not quite sure about this, but Tsareena is by far the best spinner in the tier. It has an amazing movepool and gives you some very good utility moves such as Rapid Spin, Synthesis, and U-Turn, as well as a few attacking moves such as Power Whip, Low Kick, High Jump Kick, or Play Rough. It gives really good stats too. +20 / +50 / +50 bulk is really good and gives you the third highest Atk after Gyarados and Breloom, +80. And finally, it gives you a decent but not amazing Ability, Queenly Majesty, which comes into play surprisingly often. I'm not entirely sure whether this is enough for S, but I think it's at least worth discussing.

E -> D. I don't think this is very good since it has low bulk and a bad type, but it does have 100 SpA and decent Speed, so it's definitely useable for something. Definitely doesn't deserve E.

D -> E? This is pretty much just slow Gastly. I can't think of a single reason to use this over Gastly. That being said, I'm still a bit unsure about this because I feel like E might be a bit harsh.

D -> C. Vaporeon gives pretty good special bulk, the Water type, 65 SpA, Wish, and Water Absorb, which allows it to be a Kyogre check that is a good special wall with a decent damage output that can Wish pass, which is especially useful if you're using something with no recovery, such as AV Tsasharp or Toedsdos. Due to it being able to check Kyogre, I'd argue that it is better than Sylveon, which is already in the C tier.

E -> D. Slowking, Slowking-Galar, and Slowbro-Galar are all in D and Slowbro is pretty similar to them. There isn't really a reason for it to be in a lower tier, especially since it is a bit better than Slowbro-Galar IMO due to having a better type and slightly better stats.

D -> E. The only real reason to use Annihilape is for Rage Fist, and Primeape-Dragonite is a better Rage Fist abuser.

C -> D. It could be a good Last Respects user, especially in Rain, but aside from the Ghost type, Last Respects, and Adaptability / Swift Swim, there isn't really a reason to use this. It's also hard to judge how effective it would be at that considering that nobody has used it yet, and Bisharp, Dunsparce, Stantler, and Qwilfish-Hisui (the most common mons in the tier) are all problems if you want to use Last Respects.

C -> D / E. I honestly don't know why this was in C tier to begin with. I can't think of a reason to use this over any other evo. (Unrelated, but Flapple gives similar SpA and Spe to Kilowattrel which I find pretty funny.)

E -> D. I'm not quite sure why this was in E as it gives the same Atk as Lilligant-Hisui and the same Spe as Ceruledge. Admittedly, there isn't usually a good reason to use this over Lilligant-Hisui or Ceruledge, but it has Sucker Punch and U-Turn and doesn't replace your type. It also has Hustle if you don't mind the accuracy drop (though Lilligant-Hisui has this too).

A -> B. Wish there was more to say about this, but I haven't seen enough of this mon to be convinced that it's worthy of A.

B -> A. Lilligant-Hisui gives you +70 Atk, +75 Spe, a decent movepool, and STAB CC, especially useful to hit Dunsparce. Again that's really all there is to say, but so far Lilligant-Hisui has proven to be really good.

B -> A. This is only used on Dunsparce, but it's so good at what it does that I feel like it deserves A tier. If you want a physically defensive pivot, Persian-Alola is by far you best option.

This set was the result of me trying to find something that switches into Clodsparce and beats it 1v1, without exceptions

252+ Atk Dunsparce Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 200-236 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery


I've also got a set I'd like to share! wait why is this starting to look like Gimlaf's post

Primeape-SamurottH

Stats: 80 HP / 138 Atk / 80 Def / 77 SpA / 75 SpD / 120 Spe
Type: Fighting / Dark

Samurott-Hisui (Primeape) @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Sacred Sword
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch

This set is pretty self-explanatory. Ceaseless Edge for STAB and Spikes, Sacred Sword for STAB, U-turn for pivot, and Sucker Punch for priority. It doesn't really need coverage. Despite its base 138 Atk, its STABs are about as powerful as those of QwilfishH-LilligantH (ignoring Hustle) due to Sharpness. However, it is significantly slower and Ceaseless Edge isn't 100% accurate, so only use this if you feel like you need Spikes or if you really want U-turn / Sucker Punch. This has worked pretty well for me so far, but I've only used Adamant Band on webs so far, so I'm not sure how good it would be outside of webs. I would recommend using Jolly Band or Adamant Scarf though.

Weight is currently bugged in CE. When using the /showevo command, it shows the weight of the evolution, not how much weight it gains. For example, using /showevo solgaleo shows that Solgaleo gains 230 kg upon evolution when in reality it loses 769.9 kg. The /ce command seems to be working fine though.

Weight is also bugged in battles, as you can see in https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9crossevolution-1858031258. Kadabra-Alakazam and Alakazam should have the same weight, but Grass Knot deals more damage to Kadabra-Alakazam than to Alakazam.

Calc to make sure it wasnt a roll

0 SpA Misdreavus Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 72-85 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

This is still an issue BTW and is very relevant if you're using Low Kick or Grass Knot. For example, I'm currently running Low Kick on my Tsasharp to beat opposing Tinksharps, but it should also be useful for other mons, such as Clodsparce. Low Kick should be 120 BP against Clodsparce, but is currently bugged and is only 40 BP.

 

[IMakeNoSense]

Alright, been reading feedback and I'm considering making these changes:

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A -> S

Yeah I see no reason to put Qwilfish-Hisui in S tier; it's one of the most flexible, most powerful, and most threatening Pokemon in the meta right now.

Qwilfish-Hisui

A -> S. It deserves to be right next to Stantler: It has the same base attack and speed, carries a good typing (which also gives it a STAB Crunch to deal with Ceruledge evos), and has access to Swords Dance no matter what evo you choose for it. There are at least 3 viable offensive evos (Ceruledge, Lilligant-H and Hariyama), but bulkier sets are not entirely out of the question either (I'm running this with Clodsire, which I might go into detail later, and I've heard about Toxapex evos as well, though I can't verify their viability).

F -> D/E

Gimlaf makes a good point about Bergmite-Sylveon; I'd like to add that if there is a somewhat-viable set to be argued for a Pokemon, let's put it in E at minimum (or D if it's usable); since F tier mons are literally the "don't waste your breath" category.

Bergmite

F -> E. If you want to have unblockable Rapid Spin, Bergmite-Sylveon is as good as you can go. 95/100/100 bulk isn't horrible, espeically since you trade the Ice type for Fairy. Far from good, but has the tiniest of niches, maybe. (Actually, Quaxwell-Decidueye-h has Scrappy Rapid Spin, so theres another option for unblockable spin I suppose. But that's on the frailer side and not fast either.)

E -> C/D

Sandygast is a pretty niche base, but it does have its good uses. After some rethinking I do think it deserves C personally. Ghost type is what kills it IMO, since it dies to the top threats in the metagame unless you change it (despite that it's most common evolution is Vaporeon as it evo's out of Ghost to become Water/Ground). Not a bad defensive mon, and does have some interest in Shore Up recovery.

Sandygast

E -> D? I'm not fully sure about this myself. But the bulk isn't terrible and it has Shore Up for recovery purposes. Then there's of course the option to give this a Vaporeon evo so that it can switch into Specs Kyogre.

Sandygast is a decent option if you want a spinblocker with recovery.

D -> E

Yeah let's just slap this guy in the "could but probably shouldn't" tier. E it goes.

Slaking

D -> E/F. Reasoning: just don't. Jokes aside, the only reason to use this is for Truant Skill Swap, and that does not feel worthy of D at all. At least not, when your mon is Tinkatuff-Slaking, which doesn't even have impressive stats to justify the massively telegraphed first turn setup of Skill Swap.

/ C -> D/E

Yeah I'm thinking about it again, and I just don't see a universe where either evo makes a huge impression. On paper, they give STAB to their signature moves, Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes, which is always appreciated and would be amazing if it worked, but it hasn't yet. I just think the metagame hasn't been hospitable to either. I think Rapid is more prone to being used since there's too many Dark resists or straight-up Physical walls in the tier, and I could maybe imagine something (?) liking to have STAB Surging Strikes (like maybe Qwilfish-H or even Stantler?) But right now, no usage = low viability.

Urshifu (Both)

/ C -> D? As I mentioned a while ago, these two have their signature moves going for them, but has anyone actually used these evos so far? Because I don't recall having ever seen them.

D -> E

Must've been thinking about the Zorua/Zorua-Hisui decision when considering the evo's ranking; yeah there's no real decider between the two. I'd rather put them in the same lower tier than in the same higher one.

Zoroark-Hisui

/ D/E? Not really a ranking proposal here, but is there a significant difference between the two that causes the viability difference? Zoro-H has Will-O-Wisp I suppose (and Bitter Malice, if you want to run this over Shadow Ball for some reason), but at the same time, regular Zoroark has Sucker Punch.

C -> D/E

I think there was an argument made for Skel evo's a bit ago. I don't think they're all that, but others were shocked that I put Skeledirge in E tier at first. I can see it going to D, but like, I agree C is too high for this thing. Cool traits on paper (Unaware + Slack Off, Torch Song, WoW+Hex, etc.), but yeah, D at best.
Also there was that one Chansey-Skeledirge era.

Skeledirge

C -> E. I just haven't seen any good sets with this. In fact, the only Skeledirge crevos that I've seen at all are Primeape-Skeledirges, which are worse Rage Fist abusers than Primeape-Dragonite. There isn't really a reason to use this. It barely gives you any stats, Ceruledge is generally a better Ghost if you want a spinblocker, and Clodsire is much better if you want an unaware mon.

A -> S

Agree. Solid evolution, little-to-no downside. Anything that gets this evolution becomes significantly better since it gets healing in Synthesis, a role in hazard removal through Rapid Spin, bulk, a commendable +80 to Physical Attack, yeah totally S tier IMO.

Tsareena

A -> S? I'm not quite sure about this, but Tsareena is by far the best spinner in the tier. It has an amazing movepool and gives you some very good utility moves such as Rapid Spin, Synthesis, and U-Turn, as well as a few attacking moves such as Power Whip, Low Kick, High Jump Kick, or Play Rough. It gives really good stats too. +20 / +50 / +50 bulk is really good and gives you the third highest Atk after Gyarados and Breloom, +80. And finally, it gives you a decent but not amazing Ability, Queenly Majesty, which comes into play surprisingly often. I'm not entirely sure whether this is enough for S, but I think it's at least worth discussing.

OK turbo round since I'm tired of all the formatting.

D -> B/C (Solid evolution after reanalysis, I'd even argue B.)
E -> D (Solely because you don't have to become Poison/Psychic type to use it, and I guess there could be a use for it somewhere.)
D -> E (Literally no point on using this; Regenerator is best for defensive mons or fast pivot mons, to which SB-G is neither. Plus, it's never used.)
D -> E (Just use Primeape or don't even bother IMO, nothing but like maybe Bisharp can even fathom to run this evo.)
E -> D

E -> D. I don't think this is very good since it has low bulk and a bad type, but it does have 100 SpA and decent Speed, so it's definitely useable for something. Definitely doesn't deserve E.

D -> E (Argument's simple, if Gastly's usable but still not great, then Glimmet's just worse than it in every regard. And I don't feel bad about putting it in E either. Maybe a TR gimmick some day, but E is deserved.)

D -> E? This is pretty much just slow Gastly. I can't think of a single reason to use this over Gastly. That being said, I'm still a bit unsure about this because I feel like E might be a bit harsh.

E -> D (I'd agree after relooking at this: Dragon Dance + Hustle, and gives U-Turn if you need it; stat spread isn't terrible either.)
C -> D (Did I or PQRDG put this in C? It's got okay stats to where it could be usable, but like... it's not a C tier, especially since I've never heard of any good Kilowattrel evos.)
A -> B (I think it still deserves A, but I get why it'd be B tier. If there were half-tiers I would've put it in A- or B+.)
B -> A (I don't know if I did it or PQRDG, but yeah how did we miss this, A tier fo'sho.)

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Anything else I didn't mention from the last two posts are either non-important to discuss, already been discussed, or I just disagree with. To point out a few, never use Tarountula, Persian-A should be B since its only good on 1 mon, and I just don't think Hattrem is justifiable enough, but even though I didn't make a "turbopost" for it, I'll just slap it into E.

Anyway! I'm dehydrated and sleep deprived! Comments still appreciated while I make changes to the proposed viability list; link to it here.