Cryogonal (OU Rapid Spin) [QC 0/3]

[Delko]

Cryogonal

[SET]
name: Cryogonal (OU Rapin Spin)
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Ice Beam/ Blizzard
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 38 SAtk / 224 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on site:

- Underrated Spinner that functions well on (Hail) stall teams in need of Rapid Spin support.
- Can beat Spinblockers thanks to good special bulk with a combination of Toxic + Recover (or Ice Beam in Gengar's case).
- Weak to Stealth Rock, but immune to other hazards.
- Also beats Stallbreakers such as Taunt + SD Gliscor and MixMence.
- It's high Speed stat (base 105) also lets it revenge kill Dragon-types and things like Acrobat Gliscor and non-Scarf Landorus.
- Has access to the reliable healing move Recover.
- Shallow movepool but it doesn't really need much more.

Additional comments

- 248 give a HP as SR-number.
- Enough Speed to outspeed Landorus (101) and thus all max Speed base 100's too.
- Remaining EV's dropped in SAtk for a little offensive boost (Cryogonal has a base 95 SAtk, which is pretty good for a "defensive" poke).
- Hail support can be used but isn't needed. Also works well on a Sandstall team etc. When used on a Hail team, Blizzard is obviously the offensive move of choice.
- Substitute can be used over Toxic to prevent status and Pursuit trapping and, in case Toxic Spikes are up, stalling with SubRecover.
- Hidden Power [Fire] can be used to prevent Scizor from Pursuit trapping (watch out for Bullet Punch though), this will also make Cryogonal able to beat the common bulky Rotom-W, CB Scizor, non-Scarf Landorus combinations (it has to give up on it's main selling point, Rapid Spin, though).
- Reflect is an option as well:

After running some calcs and seeing just how insanely vulnerable it is on the defensive side, have you considered trying a spread of 32 HP/252 Def/224 Spe and running Reflect over Toxic? You lose some Special durability but you become much more difficult to take down physically, especially with Reflect up, as well as giving a bit of support to your team if you can't/don't need to Spin. That still may not save it from being outdone by the likes of Starmie, but at least you can survive a Pursuit on the switch with Reflect+this spread.

CB Tyranitar Pursuit(switching) vs:

252/0 Cryogonal with Reflect: 78.77 - 92.73%
32/252 Cryogonal with Reflect: 56.4 - 66.78%

CB Scizor Pursuit(switching) vs:

252/0 Cryogonal: 102.32 - 120.63%
w/ Reflect: 51.16 - 60.46%
32/252 Cryogonal: 73.7 - 86.85%
w/ Reflect: 37.02 - 43.59%

This does kind of mean "Reflect or die" in a lot of cases, but I think that beats "die or die". You do lose the ability to hit some Ghosts without Toxic, but Toxic Spikes might do the job on grounded ones and it doesn't affect your matchup with Gengar.

Teammates and Counters

- As mentioned before, Abomasnow is a possible teammate, but isn't required.
- Works good on a stall team, so pokemon as Hippowdon, Blissey, Skarmory, ... make good partners as well.
- Due to it's pitiful base 30 Defense Cryogonal can easily be Pursuit trapped by the likes of Scizor or Tyranitar.
- Jirachi is also a good counter, it's immune to Toxic and resists Ice Beam while being able to retaliate with Iron Head.

 

[Mynism]

Man, this is just weak to every hasards users (Ferrothorn Skarm Heatran Tyranitar Foretress Donphan ..). The only way I can see it working is as something like an offensive spinner ..

 

[danilo]

Yeah, I really hate mons like this. Ice-type is terrible defensive typing. This thing just gets destroyed by nearly ever physical attacker in the tier. As Mynism mentioned, this thing just gets played with by every hazard user. Then there's the Stealth Rock weakness and lack of Recovery. Only underrated Rapid Spinner that can really be good on Hail Teams is Claydol due to its set of resistances.

 

[Pocket]

Cryogonal certainly has a couple of advantages over other Rapid Spinners - reliable recovery (combined with good special bulk), allowing it to stick around and Toxic-stall Jellicent / Sableye, and Speed to check certain threats. Mynism brings a valid concern, though - many common SR setters and Spikers, such as Heatran, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress (w/ Gyro Ball) fuck Cryogonal up, so it would have very little opportunity to come in and spin. It can beat certain SR leads, such as Deoxys-D and Sash Mamoswine, but that's about it from what I can see.

Some logs / replay would really help enlighten Cryogonal's niche in OU.

EDIT: Hmm, okay

 

[Delko]

Ice typing isn't perfect but it isn't that terrible. Cryogonal isn't weak to BoltBeam or Water, the most common types of special attacks.
It's also pretty obvious that it won't be taking a lot of physical hits with its base 30 Defense, but it can switch-in on nearly every special attack to get a Rapid Spin of or just to cripple with Toxic.
Cryogonal may not be as effective in spinning against hazard setters, but it does have to potential to beat every single spinblocker (you'll have to Toxic Sableye on the switch-in though, bs Prankster) which not a lot of other spinner can do.
The Stealth Rock weakness is disappointing but as I mentioned, Levitate prevents damage from all other hazards, which is also something all other OU spinners lack.
Also keep in mind that this particular Cryogonal functions best in a Stall team, where it not only offer Spin-support but also deals with common Stallbreakers such as CB Dragonite, MixMence and Taunt-SD Gliscor.

@ Sir, what do you mean "lack of reliable recovery"? Recover is as reliable as it can get, lol.

 

[danilo]

Sorry Delko, I didn't really notice Recover T_T. Regardless, Ice typing is pretty terrible. It doesn't resist anything relevant, aside from Grass-type moves.

 

[ElCee]

Sorry Delko, I didn't really notice Recover T_T. Regardless, Ice typing is pretty terrible. It doesn't resist anything relevant, aside from Grass-type moves.

It doesn't resist Grass...

Delko certainly outlined some cool advantages for using it, although I'd still be wary about actually switching it into Mixmence because of BB/Outrage crushing you and Fire Blast doing enough to basically "force" you to Recover as it switches out, but it handles Draco Meteors surprisingly well. It'd be interesting to see some logs like Pocket said because that skeleton piqued my attention.

 

[Delko]

I'll try to get some logs then.
In the meanwhile you can see Cryogonal in action here. Albeit no spinning is done, it shows its potential in beating Haxorus, Dragonite, Latios and Rotom-W, all in 1 battle (last turns).

 

[Mynism]

well, he played like a retard and had no SR

 

[Pocket]

Yea, although Cryogonal may be a reliable spinner in that it can switch in on special hits comfortably, it's WIDE OPEN to physical assaults. It essentially has the physical defensiveness of Alakazam and Sharpedo x_x (even with max HP).

Delko, have you never had problems where TTar or CB Scizor effortlessly switches in and Pursuit-kills your Cryogonal? This vulnerability with no offensive presence to discourage such switch-ins makes it a pretty shaky Rapid Spinner imo. If you need a Rapid Spinner with the ability to check offensive stallbreakers, wouldn't Starmie do a better job?

 

[Lee]

Don't know why people are being so dismissive. It's so goddamn difficult to find a Rapid Spinner to use in OU so anything that has access to Rapid Spin+Recover+a good defensive stat should be forgiven a few shortcomings. I'M SICK OF USING FORRY OR STARMIE ON EVERY TEAM.

I'd never use this on a Hail team - another Fighting/Fire/Rock/Steel weakness is the last thing they need, and Tentacruel usually brings much more to any Hail team. I'd be more tempted to use him on a Rain team where his Fire weakness is halved and he can counter big threats like Celebi and perhaps check things like Rotom-W and the Lati twins (although I suspect that may need a more defensive spread).

Reflect/Light Screen/Protect/Haze/Hidden Power Fire all seem like worthwhile options in that last slot.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Nopesies. Terrible defensive typing and SR Weakness combined with no physical defense to speak of does not do good things for this Pokemon. It's incredibly hard to find any way to get Cryogonal in at all, and it instantly dies to Tyranitar. I find it hard to believe it can do anything when the response is "bring in tyranitar/scizor, watch it die".

@Lee: Rapid Spin is in no way enough of a saving grace to make something as bad as Cryogonal worthwhile. Its entire merit lies in Rapid Spin, Recover, and passable Special Defense. Those three things, while in fairly high demand, are not so much so that one can overlook 30 Defense (when it can't really do anything to any of the Pursuiters in the metagame), an awful defensive typing, and a weakness to Stealth Rock.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

@OP, If this is approved, then you'll need to make it a full OU analysis since Cryogonal does not have an OU analysis at present.

 

[ElCee]

After running some calcs and seeing just how insanely vulnerable it is on the defensive side, have you considered trying a spread of 32 HP/252 Def/224 Spe and running Reflect over Toxic? You lose some Special durability but you become much more difficult to take down physically, especially with Reflect up, as well as giving a bit of support to your team if you can't/don't need to Spin. That still may not save it from being outdone by the likes of Starmie, but at least you can survive a Pursuit on the switch with Reflect+this spread. The fact that you aren't weak to Pursuit does actually come into play with this spread too, as Starmie takes more even with a defensive spread.

CB Tyranitar Pursuit(switching) vs:

252/0 Cryogonal with Reflect: 78.77 - 92.73%
32/252 Cryogonal with Reflect: 56.4 - 66.78%

CB Scizor Pursuit(switching) vs:

252/0 Cryogonal: 102.32 - 120.63%
w/ Reflect: 51.16 - 60.46%
32/252 Cryogonal: 73.7 - 86.85%
w/ Reflect: 37.02 - 43.59%

This does kind of mean "Reflect or die" in a lot of cases, but I think that beats "die or die", which is what happens with the current spread and no Reflect. You do lose the ability to hit some Ghosts without Toxic, but Toxic Spikes might do the job on grounded ones and it doesn't affect your matchup with Gengar.

Again, I'm not trying to comment on its viability as I have not used Cryogonal in OU before. I'm just giving some suggestions to deal with its incredible physical frailty.

 

[Delko]

Thanks ElCee, I'll put that in the OP.

 

[alexwolf]

Nice try Delko, but outside of the cool factor, i don't think there is any point of using this poke in OU. I simply cannot find any use for him and as said by SDS, Rapid Spin and Recover alone, especially on a SR weak poke, are not enough of a saving grace.

I wouldn't want to run this poke in a Hail team, because then i would have 2 pokes completely wrecked by SR, Scizor and Tyranitar, that also have identical weaknesses and no defensive synergy whatsoever.

I wouldn't want to run this poke in a rain team, since then Cryogonal wouldn't be able to beat the few pokes it is supposed to like Starmie and Rotom-W, since they 2hko in rain. Also the fire neutrality that you get doesn't help you handle anything new, since Heatran walls you to hell and back anyway and can Toxic you or burn you with Lava Plume and eventually out stall you, while Infernape goes for the kill with CC. The only threat you manage to handle better is Rest-less Volcarona, but Rain teams don't exactly have a hard time with her anyway.

I wouldn't want to run this poke in a sun team, since i wouldn't want 2 very important members of my team, destroyed by SR and TTar, with almost no defensive synergy except for the Steel attacks that Ninetales resists.

The only types of team that could theoretically use Cryogonal are Sand and Weatherless teams, but as said again leaving the very important role of spinning to something that instantly dies against 2 of the top 5 used pokes in OU is simply a liability.

 

[The Truth]

Honestly, an SR weakness on a spinner just doesn't sit right with me. Combined with the terrible defensive typing and the absolute inability to take physical hits, Cryogonal is really not the spinner for a team that really needs rapid spin. I can see it as an offensive piece in hail that also happens to pack rapid spin, but as hail is so dependent on spin to keep its ice-types alive, a spinner like cryogonal doesn't seem like the best idea. Tentacruel or something that doesn't add to the fire and fighting weaknesses that hail usually has would fit better.

 

[Sayonara]

You should add Terrakion in Checks and Counters, since Cryogonal is weak to both its STABs. I find this set pretty interesting, anyhow. I'll have to test it out myself.

 

[HoiPolloi]

I can't see this working.
If you run it on a offensive team, you lose every single bit of momentum you had. After the spin you probably have to waste another turn to Recover.
On a defensive team it is even worse. Ice is just a horrible type for a defensive Pokemon. It also has a hard time to do its job more than once, while the opponent can send everything he/she wants on the spin and set up on the following Recover or just smash something.
And finally besides Rapid Spin Cryogonal can only contributes "Toxic support" to the team, and there are a ton of Pokemon, which do much better at this. All the viable spinners in OU can set up hazards (Forretress, Tentacruel, Donphan...) or have offensive potential (Starmie, Donphan...) or are good walls. Cryogonal can do none of that.

 

[shrang]

- Can beat Spinblockers thanks to good special bulk with a combination of Toxic + Recover (or Ice Beam in Gengar's case).

I can't see how this happens. Jellicent occasionally (or quite commonly, I'm not too sure of the stats) carries Toxic itself, as well as being able to use Taunt to stop Recover. If it does carry Toxic or Taunt, you're probably getting to a stalemate at best, and if it carries both, you're flat out losing. You can't beat Gengar either, since SubDisable ones just Sub on your Ice Beam and Disable it, while more offensive ones with Life Orb just OHKO you with Focus Blast after SR damage. You do beat Dusclops, I guess, but struggling against the top two is a bit of a let down.

 

[-Tsunami-]

I can't see how this happens. Jellicent occasionally (or quite commonly, I'm not too sure of the stats) carries Toxic itself, as well as being able to use Taunt to stop Recover. If it does carry Toxic or Taunt, you're probably getting to a stalemate at best, and if it carries both, you're flat out losing. You can't beat Gengar either, since SubDisable ones just Sub on your Ice Beam and Disable it, while more offensive ones with Life Orb just OHKO you with Focus Blast after SR damage. You do beat Dusclops, I guess, but struggling against the top two is a bit of a let down.

Actually, literally no Jellicent actually runs Toxic over Will-O-Wisp. Since Cryogonal is faster, it can easily stall out Jellicent since Scald will do next to nothing and burn doesn't take away too much HP after Leftovers. The turn the Taunt wheres off, Cryogonal can just use Recover, while Jellicent will be whittled down turn after turn from the Toxic. Gengar does beat it though. It loses to Sableye too, and thus, loses to 2/3 of the best and most used OU spin-blockers. This makes me a little hesitant about it, but I guess Donphan is still used and it loses to all 3. It seems like a good spinner for a hail team though, especially with Blizzard, which lets it beat Sableye after Stealth Rock and hail.

 

[Mynism]

I agree with Shakeitup on this. I personally see Cryogonal only niche as something like a Hail-abuser set, like Sub Toxic HP Fire/Recover/Blizzard/Rapid Spin.. I dont see why it couldnt work. Delko, try it ?

 

[ElCee]

I wouldn't say Cryogonal strictly loses to Gengar, with Ice Beam doing 47.32 - 56.1% and Gengar has to have a Life Orb to OHKO you. It doesn't do as well as Starmie since it's slower, but Gengar can't switch in on it all day like it can Donphan or Forretress that lack an effective attack.

My biggest issue when trying to test this has been trying to find a team to fit it on. The additional Fire/Fighting/Steel weakness on a Hail team really sucks when you consider Starmie actually resists all those. On a normal stall team, the 252/0 spread has been too frail for me to work with in a lot of cases, and the 32/252 version with Reflect made me realize all the Toxic Spikers in OU can already Spin, although I suppose you could have them run an auxiliary attack move or something.

 

[waterwarrior]

Ice IS an awful defensive type. If not, give me a good reason why the highest-tiered defensive Ice-type is, guess what, in NU. (Froslass is support, not a wall. Not a tank.)

EDIT: My bad, text and all

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I'm not really sure about this one. With Scizor and Tyranitar at #1 and #5, respectively, it's too easy to exploit its poor Defense when you can just Pursuit the thing to death. As already mentioned, Ice is a terrible typing, only resisting itself. Tentacruel I think would be better for hail, since it resists a lot of the types that Ice is weak to, most notably Fire and Steel. Tentacruel can also lay Toxic Spikes if your team benefits from that (especially stall). Levitate on a spinner isn't much of an advantage when the spinner in question is weak to Stealth Rock.

However, I may be convinced with logs. Right now though, I don't see much of a reason to use this over Tentacruel on a hail team.