Hello there. I'm just a washed and crusty player watching from the sidelines, but I would like to open discourse on this topic to gauge the opinion from the tournament community as a whole, regardless of your skill level in the tier. Before getting into the issue of gen 8, I just wanted to preface this by saying that it was really cool to see a resurgence in the ORAS OU metagame in the past couple of years from circuit tours/invitationals, mostly in part by people who were actively motivated and interested in the tier. That proves old gen metagames have the potential to evolve and undergo constant development beyond its retirement as the current gen. However, that does not seem to be the case for the present state of SS OU. I think it's no secret that people have considered it to be one of the most lifeless OU tiers in terms of spectating/playing. I believe it is one of the contributing factors for interest in this site's competitive tournament scene to have fallen in decline in recent years. Thankfully, with the advent of gen 9 and its impending dlcs that appears to be less so the case. With this new generation however, it grants us a sense of perspective and hindsight that we were not afforded during gen 8.
If we were to look at the transition from gen 8 to 9, things can be said to have arguably changed for the better. Albeit divisive, terastalization offers a much more nuanced approach to the game, and generational power creep has kept up to the point that offensive threats can check opposing offensive threats, with some defensive pokemon being able to keep pace with them (not to mention future instances of dlc that will change things up). Sounds a lot more fun and interesting right? So what's the problem with gen 8? Why has this tier languished into what it currently is? Well it is a very strange, albeit not unprecedented thing, but reverse power creep happened. Such is the case from gen 5 to 6, with high bp moves dropping in power, the introduction of fairy type to counter dragons, and no more gems and permaweather. But from gen 7 to 8, dynamax was banned, we lost a lot of integral pokemon and moves due to dexit, and z-moves and megas were gone. After going through several dlcs and bans, we arrived at our current metagame state.
Now I have spoken to some top players and watched my fair share of recent high level games, and the general consensus that I've gathered from those that still actively play the tier that argue in its favor is that gen 8 OU is a relatively skill based tier that rewards patient play and long term planning. I have been out of practice and retired for some time, but I do want to ask some questions to those people. Is this the most balanced metagame that SS OU can become? Has it undergone any new or potentially interesting developments in recent years? Do you actively enjoy playing and building in this tier? As someone who foresaw that this state of stagnation would happen years ago and left partially due to it, if you ask me any of those questions now I would be inclined to say, for the most part, no not really. So how can we fix this? How can we make it so that SS OU can possibly compare in quality to past and future generations of OU? How can it live up to its potential?
Ban Heavy-Duty Boots in SS OU. This is non-negotiable at this point. This is not a self-correcting issue that the metagame can solve on its own, but a tragic mistake that we need to carefully reexamine. Now hold up, Mr. Gay, you might be thinking to yourself, that's a pretty radical change to make this late for a past generation, didn't we already have this discussion before, why now? Well allow me to elaborate. Ever since the inception of spikes and rapid spin in GSC, to three layers of spikes in ADV, to stealth rock and toxic spikes in DPP, sticky web and defog in ORAS, and finally boots in SS. It is no exaggeration to say that the introduction of entry hazards and its appropriate counter-play have warped competitive pokemon into what it is today, arguably for the better. So why is it that it's boots that broke the camerupt's back? Boots are apparently fine in gen 9, so why is it a potential problem in gen 8? Like I said before, reverse power creep, specifically a lack of ways to break and make much meaningful progress. It's not like we have access to z-moves, megas, or tera, and dynamax is stupid, pursuit is gone and dexit happened resulting in a much more centralized metagame, especially with not much new pokemon to work with. How the hell are we supposed to make progress then? Good old reliable entry hazards obviously, but boots invalidates even that. This has resulted in a metagame with unhealthy game states that primarily revolve around toxic protect stall, regen and
knock off/trick spam, and double switching often for favourable matchups/positioning to make any sort of headway. These of course are not the only viable strategies in the tier, but when it overshadows the vast majority of playstyles, I see a problem. A problem that people have deluded themselves into thinking is somehow acceptable.
Now I'm not saying you're wrong if you like the current state of SS OU, all I ask is for you to think about and consider it, and open your mind to the possibilities beyond the status quo. If we were to ban boots, do you think it would make the tier less skill based and not reward patient play or long term planning? I would argue the opposite actually since hazard management becomes so much more of a critical factor to consider in your general gameplan. Wait so you're saying that I can't just mindlessly future sight and teleport from my boots slowbro into boots weavile without taking that layer of spikes or stealth rock? Nor can I just go to my boots zapdos on boots tornadus-t's u-turn to punish with static without getting hit by rocks? Or how I can't just switch between my boots blissey and boots unaware clefable ignoring hazards to pp stall and have my toxapex absorb knock off/trick? You get the point. But see, that's the beauty of smogon tiering. We don't have to subscribe to gamefreak's idea of how to balance their game, which they have proven consistently each generation to be absolutely terrible at, we can strive for our own definition of competitiveness ourselves.
Basically, the major impetus towards banning boots would be so that there is opportunity cost associated with abusing those high risk/reward hazard weak mons, not to mention making regenerator mons less op than they already are. That being said, I do think that the addition of boots is a positive addition to pokemon, unfortunately not in this iteration of OU. So please, do not argue in bad faith saying boots would be a godsend for past generations so suck it up in gen 8, as you do not have the privelige to contend with regen spam, non perma sand, and buffed defog distribution so that nothing is really on a timer. Nor should this ruling affect lower tiers at all, especially since SS OU is now a past gen that should not subject its rulset to past lower tiers.
If this were to come to pass, I also believe that resuspecting cinderace, magearna, and kyurem in the tier should be on the plate. Cinderace would allow the tier to have a strong, fast offensive presence that can check a lot of threats, while also pressuring a lot of defensive cores. It's function as a pivot would be greatly limited due to its rocks weakness as well as never having contended with garchomp, therians, and heatran as soft checks while it was in OU. Magearna is another pokemon that I'm not entirely sold on, but similarly to cinderace, has never been tested in a post home metagame. Having new soft checks in cinderace, heatran, therians and slowking-g helps impede its influence. It would provide the tier with a much needed defensive fairy alternative to clefable, functions as a much needed answer for tapu lele and weavile, while keeping offensive grasses in rillaboom and kartana at bay. I'm also not sure if a finalized tier with no access to z-moves would justify its current ban. Kyurem was banned at the tailend of SS for its ability to circumvent most of its checks and counters, but with the addition of cinderace and magearna to pressure it, while also losing the ability to run boots, its toolkit is a lot more limited. Granted freeze dry might make it a bit too much still but is worth consideration nonetheless.
Now is the perfect time to test this new version of SS OU. We had several years worth of inertia that resulted in the slow, yet gradual expiration of this dead end of a metagame. There is no avid playerbase for this tier that would actively try to progress it further and people will only play it if they have to, since it is a part of important tournaments such as SPL, Smogon Tour, and the up and coming Smogon Masters. I wouldn't say that the current SS OU is a bad tier by any means, I think its quite well balanced for what it is in spite of its glaring issues, but we can do much better. If you want to reinvigorate interest in these old gens, you need the corresponding player base to follow suit. I see no better way than to reinvent the tier into what it should have been years ago.
If nothing happens in spite of all this, so be it. But I just want to ask, do you really want to keep playing and watching this stale SS OU metagame for the foreseeable future, where more often than not people will just recycle teams because it's a 'solved' metagame? Especially considering the fact that this format is currently supported in 3 official tournaments? I sure don't when I believe it can be so much more diverse and interesting, but if most people don't mind spending on average 100+ turns per game then I suppose I'm the crazy one.
Tirade aside, I'm looking forward to what people will be cooking for Smogon Masters if it gets the hype it deserves. It does conflict with the new dlc release of gen 9, so hopefully this suggestion would revitalize some potential interest in these recent older gens. I am also very out of my depth in SM, though I do think that tier is still criminally unexplored for what it is, but I would not discount the idea mixing it up and testing other stuff like aegislash (too much skill less medicham spammers) or blaziken in it. Also want to sing one last praise to the players that have progressed ORAS to what is today, honestly restored my faith enough to the point that I think we can do the same for SS, so let's make it happen.
If we were to look at the transition from gen 8 to 9, things can be said to have arguably changed for the better. Albeit divisive, terastalization offers a much more nuanced approach to the game, and generational power creep has kept up to the point that offensive threats can check opposing offensive threats, with some defensive pokemon being able to keep pace with them (not to mention future instances of dlc that will change things up). Sounds a lot more fun and interesting right? So what's the problem with gen 8? Why has this tier languished into what it currently is? Well it is a very strange, albeit not unprecedented thing, but reverse power creep happened. Such is the case from gen 5 to 6, with high bp moves dropping in power, the introduction of fairy type to counter dragons, and no more gems and permaweather. But from gen 7 to 8, dynamax was banned, we lost a lot of integral pokemon and moves due to dexit, and z-moves and megas were gone. After going through several dlcs and bans, we arrived at our current metagame state.
Now I have spoken to some top players and watched my fair share of recent high level games, and the general consensus that I've gathered from those that still actively play the tier that argue in its favor is that gen 8 OU is a relatively skill based tier that rewards patient play and long term planning. I have been out of practice and retired for some time, but I do want to ask some questions to those people. Is this the most balanced metagame that SS OU can become? Has it undergone any new or potentially interesting developments in recent years? Do you actively enjoy playing and building in this tier? As someone who foresaw that this state of stagnation would happen years ago and left partially due to it, if you ask me any of those questions now I would be inclined to say, for the most part, no not really. So how can we fix this? How can we make it so that SS OU can possibly compare in quality to past and future generations of OU? How can it live up to its potential?
Ban Heavy-Duty Boots in SS OU. This is non-negotiable at this point. This is not a self-correcting issue that the metagame can solve on its own, but a tragic mistake that we need to carefully reexamine. Now hold up, Mr. Gay, you might be thinking to yourself, that's a pretty radical change to make this late for a past generation, didn't we already have this discussion before, why now? Well allow me to elaborate. Ever since the inception of spikes and rapid spin in GSC, to three layers of spikes in ADV, to stealth rock and toxic spikes in DPP, sticky web and defog in ORAS, and finally boots in SS. It is no exaggeration to say that the introduction of entry hazards and its appropriate counter-play have warped competitive pokemon into what it is today, arguably for the better. So why is it that it's boots that broke the camerupt's back? Boots are apparently fine in gen 9, so why is it a potential problem in gen 8? Like I said before, reverse power creep, specifically a lack of ways to break and make much meaningful progress. It's not like we have access to z-moves, megas, or tera, and dynamax is stupid, pursuit is gone and dexit happened resulting in a much more centralized metagame, especially with not much new pokemon to work with. How the hell are we supposed to make progress then? Good old reliable entry hazards obviously, but boots invalidates even that. This has resulted in a metagame with unhealthy game states that primarily revolve around toxic protect stall, regen and
knock off/trick spam, and double switching often for favourable matchups/positioning to make any sort of headway. These of course are not the only viable strategies in the tier, but when it overshadows the vast majority of playstyles, I see a problem. A problem that people have deluded themselves into thinking is somehow acceptable.
Now I'm not saying you're wrong if you like the current state of SS OU, all I ask is for you to think about and consider it, and open your mind to the possibilities beyond the status quo. If we were to ban boots, do you think it would make the tier less skill based and not reward patient play or long term planning? I would argue the opposite actually since hazard management becomes so much more of a critical factor to consider in your general gameplan. Wait so you're saying that I can't just mindlessly future sight and teleport from my boots slowbro into boots weavile without taking that layer of spikes or stealth rock? Nor can I just go to my boots zapdos on boots tornadus-t's u-turn to punish with static without getting hit by rocks? Or how I can't just switch between my boots blissey and boots unaware clefable ignoring hazards to pp stall and have my toxapex absorb knock off/trick? You get the point. But see, that's the beauty of smogon tiering. We don't have to subscribe to gamefreak's idea of how to balance their game, which they have proven consistently each generation to be absolutely terrible at, we can strive for our own definition of competitiveness ourselves.
Basically, the major impetus towards banning boots would be so that there is opportunity cost associated with abusing those high risk/reward hazard weak mons, not to mention making regenerator mons less op than they already are. That being said, I do think that the addition of boots is a positive addition to pokemon, unfortunately not in this iteration of OU. So please, do not argue in bad faith saying boots would be a godsend for past generations so suck it up in gen 8, as you do not have the privelige to contend with regen spam, non perma sand, and buffed defog distribution so that nothing is really on a timer. Nor should this ruling affect lower tiers at all, especially since SS OU is now a past gen that should not subject its rulset to past lower tiers.
If this were to come to pass, I also believe that resuspecting cinderace, magearna, and kyurem in the tier should be on the plate. Cinderace would allow the tier to have a strong, fast offensive presence that can check a lot of threats, while also pressuring a lot of defensive cores. It's function as a pivot would be greatly limited due to its rocks weakness as well as never having contended with garchomp, therians, and heatran as soft checks while it was in OU. Magearna is another pokemon that I'm not entirely sold on, but similarly to cinderace, has never been tested in a post home metagame. Having new soft checks in cinderace, heatran, therians and slowking-g helps impede its influence. It would provide the tier with a much needed defensive fairy alternative to clefable, functions as a much needed answer for tapu lele and weavile, while keeping offensive grasses in rillaboom and kartana at bay. I'm also not sure if a finalized tier with no access to z-moves would justify its current ban. Kyurem was banned at the tailend of SS for its ability to circumvent most of its checks and counters, but with the addition of cinderace and magearna to pressure it, while also losing the ability to run boots, its toolkit is a lot more limited. Granted freeze dry might make it a bit too much still but is worth consideration nonetheless.
Now is the perfect time to test this new version of SS OU. We had several years worth of inertia that resulted in the slow, yet gradual expiration of this dead end of a metagame. There is no avid playerbase for this tier that would actively try to progress it further and people will only play it if they have to, since it is a part of important tournaments such as SPL, Smogon Tour, and the up and coming Smogon Masters. I wouldn't say that the current SS OU is a bad tier by any means, I think its quite well balanced for what it is in spite of its glaring issues, but we can do much better. If you want to reinvigorate interest in these old gens, you need the corresponding player base to follow suit. I see no better way than to reinvent the tier into what it should have been years ago.
If nothing happens in spite of all this, so be it. But I just want to ask, do you really want to keep playing and watching this stale SS OU metagame for the foreseeable future, where more often than not people will just recycle teams because it's a 'solved' metagame? Especially considering the fact that this format is currently supported in 3 official tournaments? I sure don't when I believe it can be so much more diverse and interesting, but if most people don't mind spending on average 100+ turns per game then I suppose I'm the crazy one.
Tirade aside, I'm looking forward to what people will be cooking for Smogon Masters if it gets the hype it deserves. It does conflict with the new dlc release of gen 9, so hopefully this suggestion would revitalize some potential interest in these recent older gens. I am also very out of my depth in SM, though I do think that tier is still criminally unexplored for what it is, but I would not discount the idea mixing it up and testing other stuff like aegislash (too much skill less medicham spammers) or blaziken in it. Also want to sing one last praise to the players that have progressed ORAS to what is today, honestly restored my faith enough to the point that I think we can do the same for SS, so let's make it happen.
