Discussion Current State of SS OU

[craing ;_;]

Hello there. I'm just a washed and crusty player watching from the sidelines, but I would like to open discourse on this topic to gauge the opinion from the tournament community as a whole, regardless of your skill level in the tier. Before getting into the issue of gen 8, I just wanted to preface this by saying that it was really cool to see a resurgence in the ORAS OU metagame in the past couple of years from circuit tours/invitationals, mostly in part by people who were actively motivated and interested in the tier. That proves old gen metagames have the potential to evolve and undergo constant development beyond its retirement as the current gen. However, that does not seem to be the case for the present state of SS OU. I think it's no secret that people have considered it to be one of the most lifeless OU tiers in terms of spectating/playing. I believe it is one of the contributing factors for interest in this site's competitive tournament scene to have fallen in decline in recent years. Thankfully, with the advent of gen 9 and its impending dlcs that appears to be less so the case. With this new generation however, it grants us a sense of perspective and hindsight that we were not afforded during gen 8.

If we were to look at the transition from gen 8 to 9, things can be said to have arguably changed for the better. Albeit divisive, terastalization offers a much more nuanced approach to the game, and generational power creep has kept up to the point that offensive threats can check opposing offensive threats, with some defensive pokemon being able to keep pace with them (not to mention future instances of dlc that will change things up). Sounds a lot more fun and interesting right? So what's the problem with gen 8? Why has this tier languished into what it currently is? Well it is a very strange, albeit not unprecedented thing, but reverse power creep happened. Such is the case from gen 5 to 6, with high bp moves dropping in power, the introduction of fairy type to counter dragons, and no more gems and permaweather. But from gen 7 to 8, dynamax was banned, we lost a lot of integral pokemon and moves due to dexit, and z-moves and megas were gone. After going through several dlcs and bans, we arrived at our current metagame state.

Now I have spoken to some top players and watched my fair share of recent high level games, and the general consensus that I've gathered from those that still actively play the tier that argue in its favor is that gen 8 OU is a relatively skill based tier that rewards patient play and long term planning. I have been out of practice and retired for some time, but I do want to ask some questions to those people. Is this the most balanced metagame that SS OU can become? Has it undergone any new or potentially interesting developments in recent years? Do you actively enjoy playing and building in this tier? As someone who foresaw that this state of stagnation would happen years ago and left partially due to it, if you ask me any of those questions now I would be inclined to say, for the most part, no not really. So how can we fix this? How can we make it so that SS OU can possibly compare in quality to past and future generations of OU? How can it live up to its potential?

Ban Heavy-Duty Boots in SS OU. This is non-negotiable at this point. This is not a self-correcting issue that the metagame can solve on its own, but a tragic mistake that we need to carefully reexamine. Now hold up, Mr. Gay, you might be thinking to yourself, that's a pretty radical change to make this late for a past generation, didn't we already have this discussion before, why now? Well allow me to elaborate. Ever since the inception of spikes and rapid spin in GSC, to three layers of spikes in ADV, to stealth rock and toxic spikes in DPP, sticky web and defog in ORAS, and finally boots in SS. It is no exaggeration to say that the introduction of entry hazards and its appropriate counter-play have warped competitive pokemon into what it is today, arguably for the better. So why is it that it's boots that broke the camerupt's back? Boots are apparently fine in gen 9, so why is it a potential problem in gen 8? Like I said before, reverse power creep, specifically a lack of ways to break and make much meaningful progress. It's not like we have access to z-moves, megas, or tera, and dynamax is stupid, pursuit is gone and dexit happened resulting in a much more centralized metagame, especially with not much new pokemon to work with. How the hell are we supposed to make progress then? Good old reliable entry hazards obviously, but boots invalidates even that. This has resulted in a metagame with unhealthy game states that primarily revolve around toxic protect stall, regen and
knock off/trick spam, and double switching often for favourable matchups/positioning to make any sort of headway. These of course are not the only viable strategies in the tier, but when it overshadows the vast majority of playstyles, I see a problem. A problem that people have deluded themselves into thinking is somehow acceptable.

Now I'm not saying you're wrong if you like the current state of SS OU, all I ask is for you to think about and consider it, and open your mind to the possibilities beyond the status quo. If we were to ban boots, do you think it would make the tier less skill based and not reward patient play or long term planning? I would argue the opposite actually since hazard management becomes so much more of a critical factor to consider in your general gameplan. Wait so you're saying that I can't just mindlessly future sight and teleport from my boots slowbro into boots weavile without taking that layer of spikes or stealth rock? Nor can I just go to my boots zapdos on boots tornadus-t's u-turn to punish with static without getting hit by rocks? Or how I can't just switch between my boots blissey and boots unaware clefable ignoring hazards to pp stall and have my toxapex absorb knock off/trick? You get the point. But see, that's the beauty of smogon tiering. We don't have to subscribe to gamefreak's idea of how to balance their game, which they have proven consistently each generation to be absolutely terrible at, we can strive for our own definition of competitiveness ourselves.

Basically, the major impetus towards banning boots would be so that there is opportunity cost associated with abusing those high risk/reward hazard weak mons, not to mention making regenerator mons less op than they already are. That being said, I do think that the addition of boots is a positive addition to pokemon, unfortunately not in this iteration of OU. So please, do not argue in bad faith saying boots would be a godsend for past generations so suck it up in gen 8, as you do not have the privelige to contend with regen spam, non perma sand, and buffed defog distribution so that nothing is really on a timer. Nor should this ruling affect lower tiers at all, especially since SS OU is now a past gen that should not subject its rulset to past lower tiers.

If this were to come to pass, I also believe that resuspecting cinderace, magearna, and kyurem in the tier should be on the plate. Cinderace would allow the tier to have a strong, fast offensive presence that can check a lot of threats, while also pressuring a lot of defensive cores. It's function as a pivot would be greatly limited due to its rocks weakness as well as never having contended with garchomp, therians, and heatran as soft checks while it was in OU. Magearna is another pokemon that I'm not entirely sold on, but similarly to cinderace, has never been tested in a post home metagame. Having new soft checks in cinderace, heatran, therians and slowking-g helps impede its influence. It would provide the tier with a much needed defensive fairy alternative to clefable, functions as a much needed answer for tapu lele and weavile, while keeping offensive grasses in rillaboom and kartana at bay. I'm also not sure if a finalized tier with no access to z-moves would justify its current ban. Kyurem was banned at the tailend of SS for its ability to circumvent most of its checks and counters, but with the addition of cinderace and magearna to pressure it, while also losing the ability to run boots, its toolkit is a lot more limited. Granted freeze dry might make it a bit too much still but is worth consideration nonetheless.

Now is the perfect time to test this new version of SS OU. We had several years worth of inertia that resulted in the slow, yet gradual expiration of this dead end of a metagame. There is no avid playerbase for this tier that would actively try to progress it further and people will only play it if they have to, since it is a part of important tournaments such as SPL, Smogon Tour, and the up and coming Smogon Masters. I wouldn't say that the current SS OU is a bad tier by any means, I think its quite well balanced for what it is in spite of its glaring issues, but we can do much better. If you want to reinvigorate interest in these old gens, you need the corresponding player base to follow suit. I see no better way than to reinvent the tier into what it should have been years ago.

If nothing happens in spite of all this, so be it. But I just want to ask, do you really want to keep playing and watching this stale SS OU metagame for the foreseeable future, where more often than not people will just recycle teams because it's a 'solved' metagame? Especially considering the fact that this format is currently supported in 3 official tournaments? I sure don't when I believe it can be so much more diverse and interesting, but if most people don't mind spending on average 100+ turns per game then I suppose I'm the crazy one.

Tirade aside, I'm looking forward to what people will be cooking for Smogon Masters if it gets the hype it deserves. It does conflict with the new dlc release of gen 9, so hopefully this suggestion would revitalize some potential interest in these recent older gens. I am also very out of my depth in SM, though I do think that tier is still criminally unexplored for what it is, but I would not discount the idea mixing it up and testing other stuff like aegislash (too much skill less medicham spammers) or blaziken in it. Also want to sing one last praise to the players that have progressed ORAS to what is today, honestly restored my faith enough to the point that I think we can do the same for SS, so let's make it happen.

 

[ABR]

Thanks ben, appreciate the discussion being opened on this, and I would also be in favor of a boots test.

I think the current state of SS OU, for better or worse, would not be changed in any meaningful way from banning/unbanning specific pokemon. Pretty much everything that was banned deserved to be (with boots allowed) and there isn’t really anything else to ban. Small adjustments won’t make a big enough impact. Boots are something big enough that a ban would actually cause sufficient change.

Specific test length and requirements I’m not positive on, but they should definitely be more involved than the usual. Maybe people should need to get reqs on both a status quo ladder and afterwards on a boots-less ladder. There can also be a mandatory re-vote in x months if the ban were to occur.

Excited to see where things go

 

[Finchinator]

I do not think Heavy-Duty Boots are broken. I think that they are glue that helps the tier remain playable more than anything. There are seldom “boots spam” teams like we have in SV, where they are really necessary, and more just pivots and SR weak Pokemon relying upon them for easier access. From a building perspective, I think it’s hard to build without Boots right now as you diminish a pool of pretty important Pokemon that check things (I.e Zapdos and Tornadus-T for Kartana or Slowbro for Urshifu-R), but most teams only use 1-2 boots users in practice, so it’s not like a lazy out per se either.

I think that wanting change in a now stagnant SS metagame is a good idea though. A lot of teambuilding is handcuffed by Future Sight and a lot of gameplay strategy is left inconsistent due to Static and Flame Body. These are admittedly awkward tiering topics, but worthy of discussion. Pokemon like Weavile and even Tapu Lele or Dragapult also create limited, circular dynamics in the builder and in games, but Weavile is arguably needed for Shadow Ball and there’s some give-and-take to any ban. I think they all should be discussed though — we do not just want to keep the status quo because it’s delicately held. If anything, that’s reason to discuss and potentially act.

If people are looking to stir up major fundamental change, removing Boots will do this and that anyone can admit that much. But I am not following the argument that they break or ruin the tier more than a number of other things that can be deemed problematic.

 

[Eeveeto]

Last time I played SS was during last Smogon Tour and didn,t get many points, so take this opinion with a grain of salt:


Pretty much agree with Finchinator regarding Boots. I think the problem of the meta is the opposite of what Ben Gay says, hazard stacking + offensive threats have never been so easy to use (compared to previous Gens, not SV OU where this issue is even more severe) and Boots literally make the Metagame playable. The meta is way too offensive without Boots to cover the million threats combined with hazards.

The only 3 measures that I would even consider to take if we were to Ban Boots would be the following:
1. Item Clause instead of banning Boots. It doesn,t actually ban Boots, but makes only 1 of them usable on the team, just like the rest of items. This would also make for more creative building.
2. Ban Boots, but also allow only 1 type of Hazards on each team. Would kill hazard stacking teams, but at the same time would guarantee Rock weak Mons are harder to use, for example Volcarona would need way more Defoggers/Spinners to be viable.
3. Ban Boots but also Ban Knock Off. Ok, we now take hazard damage, but at least Leftovers are here to stay to recovet some health. Knock Off + Regenerator combo is pretty much degenerate, so it would nerf it too. People complain about Weavile in this Tier (which I don,t agree with, Weavile prevents offensive teams to be as dominant as they would be without it) and this change would nerf it a lot.

Other changes non related to Boots I would make consist in 2 Routes, exclusive between them (so, if we take one way, the other cannot be taken).

Route 1. More Bans of certain offensive threats. Threats I consider Broken in the current Meta (no particular order).
1. Melmetal.
2. Tapu Lele.
3. Heatran.
4. Urshifu-R.
5. Mew.

Route 2. Unbanning some Pokemon that would make the current dominant threats worse. The profile I look for mainly is like this: "Offensive Pokemon that break offensive styles but struggle vs bulkier ones".
1. Spectrier.
2. Zygarde.
3. Zamazenta (either of the forms, but Hero looks worse).
4. Pheromosa.
5. Kyurem.


Unfortunately, I don,t have the time to extensively explain and justify my points of view, but even if I had, there are people that argue better than me, if some of them agree with (at least some of) these measures, would apreciate posting here.

Have a nice Eeveening.

 

[Finchinator]

2. Ban Boots, but also allow only 1 type of Hazards on each team. Would kill hazard stacking teams, but at the same time would guarantee Rock weak Mons are harder to use, for example Volcarona would need way more Defoggers/Spinners to be viable.

Bans of this variety are never going to realistically happen. If you think about it, this is a multiple layered complex ban that now applies to dozens of potentially viable hazard setters.

I wholly appreciate creative thinking and the rest of your post, but just wanted to be honest on this.

 

[TPP]

Magearna is another pokemon that I'm not entirely sold on, but similarly to cinderace, has never been tested in a post home metagame. Having new soft checks in cinderace, heatran, therians and slowking-g helps impede its influence.

Magearna and Cinderace were both unbanned for DLC2 in October 2020 and were both later re-banned late February 2021. We held a survey back then in which the community agreed that both of them were too strong for OU and required action.

We had several years worth of inertia that resulted in the slow, yet gradual expiration of this dead end of a metagame. There is no avid playerbase for this tier that would actively try to progress it further and people will only play it if they have to, since it is a part of important tournaments such as SPL, Smogon Tour, and the up and coming Smogon Masters.

If nothing happens in spite of all this, so be it. But I just want to ask, do you really want to keep playing and watching this stale SS OU metagame for the foreseeable future, where more often than not people will just recycle teams because it's a 'solved' metagame?

This is how a lot of people felt about ORAS OU for a very long time, but as you said, after enough time, ORAS OU players improved their community and improved the tier tremendously, but change like that doesn't happen overnight. It's only been 1 year since SS has ended, and as time goes on, it's possible for it to end up better in the long run just like ORAS OU did.

I think giving SS OU time to establish a community and then seeing how it progresses would be a good start, and that ORAS OU is a perfect example for how things can work out without any drastic changes.

 

[shnowshner]

A Boots ban would be one of, if not the biggest upheavals of an oldgen metagame, and you'd need to be prepared for the consequences of this action. HDB have cemented themselves an all-time greatest item in Pokemon as a strong alternative to Leftovers in keeping your team healthy, and given that keeping your team alive is generally an important part of winning, it's an option attractive to many different types of Pokemon. This isn't like freeing an Ubers mon: sure that's a big meta shift since you have this whole new threat to cover for, and depending on how it needs checked you might have to make sacrifices in other matchups to do better in this new one, reverberating throughout the rest of the metagame. But a lot of other interactions will remain largely the same because the options available to existing Pokemon are still there.

Without Boots, the whole spectrum of offensive and defensive options in the tier is changed. Off the top of my head a Boots ban directly impacts Dragapult, Weavile, Tapu Koko, Torn-T, Zeraora, Volcarona, Slowbro, Glowking, Zapdos, and Blissey. This is quite a large and diverse list of Pokemon and I'm certainly missing some obvious ones or more niche examples. Now the reasons why they run Boots is pretty simple: the offensive ones want to stay healthy so they can threaten throughout the game, and the defensive ones need to preserve HP to fend off the opponent's attacks, and Boots protecting you from hazard damage is a great way of doing that. The item isn't too complicated but the variety of Pokemon that enjoy its benefits is massive. If you ever wanted to talk about a metagame domino effect this would be the one for it.

I'm not arguing that this is an inherently bad idea, just one that will launch SS into a brand new period. You wouldn't be fixing SwSh as much as you'd be recontextualizing it, so if you dislike SwSh OU in general than this approach would be attractive. For others who are content with the gen, however, it'll surely come off as way too much at once. That's not even getting into how such a ban might upend the lower tiers around OU.

 

[Leavers]

This meta game is already incredibly balanced, the only thing worth considering for a ban is static/flame body or scald. Your weavile getting burned and effectively ending the game bc you knock off trans leftovers on the switch is stupid, not to mention that kartana is useless (unless its pads) now that static and flame body are present in the meta game. Methodically breaking a team is a lot easier without having to worry about the 30% abilities which end the game. It would also shorten these long games people complain about but that shouldn't be a concern of the playerbase when balancing a meta game. Banning boots is just short sighted

 

[Star]

I don't really get the logic behind going after Heavy Duty Boots at all tbh, and I feel like singling it out as the thing that makes SS games long is just silly. The fatter balances that are so common rarely ever use more than 1-2 boots mons and often those mons (Weavile, Torn) are actually the things that force progress. These structures are so common and good because Clef is Clef, Future Sight is extremely good (and the users certainly don't require Boots, often running other items) and there are so many strong fat mons (Melmetal, Heatran, Dragonite etc). Banning boots really misses the point in my opinion and I honestly don't understand at all how you can make a case for them being broken.

Generally, I do think SS OU needs further exploration and the only tournaments it's been in since the gen ended were the SPL and STour that came directly after and for obvious reasons the tier wasn't ever going to be very hyped there. I think with Masters coming up and next SPL with more distance from the gen ending we will ideally see people delving back into it more and having some kind of general development. That being said, I do think there are certainly other possibilities for changes in SS OU that have been mentioned in other posts and we will start the process of creating a council for the tier, but again I really do not agree with Boots being a primary target at all.

 

[yone]

I believe Boots are completely fine, makes BO teams stronger and more consistent and especially future sight+ teleport into weav/shifu/zeraora/buzz or any breaker.
It also makes pivoting more valuable, (volt switch zeraora/koko, teleport, u-turn on any Pokemon who requires boots in their set, im thinking about mandibuzz for example) and interesting because in that way it forces both players to think on the long term.
If somehow the SS end with boots banned, i think it will be a SM bis where stack hazard will be extremely strong and will lead to a rise of rapid spin/defog, means excadrill/corviknight/skarmory who are extremely weak to Magnezone, and with body press now its gonna be a pain, I don't really count landorus and rotom because at high level its really easy to play around them and to cheap them.
Since for example, Ferrothorn has access to hazards+knock off and sustain with leech seed and potential leftovers.
Also some pokemon absolutely need boots for a defensive balance, Zapdos, slowbro, slowking...
I can't imagine how pain sd kartana will be if there s no boots zapdos for example.
But also in an offensive pov, a weavile who can only come 3/4 times because the opp brings magnezone + other mons, considering that at least 1 of them "checks" weavile, it can be urshifu, ferrothorn or toxapex for example. Multiple combinations and strategies relying on the hazards can be made and will just make the tier "unplayable" or will lead to more suspect tests/bans and i don't really think that it is what the SS needs

 

[Ox the Fox]

Just wanted to chime in on the whole Boots situation in SS OU. I'm definitely not as active as I used to be, but I still would say I have a firm grasp of where the meta is and I've been watching most tour games over the past couple years. I would strongly support a boots suspect at this time.

I've played this tier since the beginning and have watched it shift and evolve over the years, and where it's at now it's no secret that people find SS OU ass in terms of excitement and variety. Personally, I think the tier is great competitively - the better player wins most of the time - but it's also extremely boring to watch. I'm not fully convinced that Boots is outright broken, but I do think that its presence has definitely warped the metagame. The ability to break teams quickly have drastically shifted due to easy "momentum mechanics" that ben mentioned like tera and z-moves being absent. This has left us with a meta that has is extremely hard to make progress with ni the short-term. This could be seen as a good thing but I think people who are capable of making it happen are far too hesitant to make genuine change.

I honestly don't have a firm opinion on banning boots or not, but I agree with what ABR with saying about how the tier isn't going to drastically change with any singular mon being banned (I also don't think any single mon is even close to being broken atm). To me, it feels like the ony realistic path forward to getting some sort of change in the tier is suspecting boots. We might as well give the community the chance to give its input and vote on whether or not boots should be banned.

That being said, I do think there are certainly other possibilities for changes in SS OU that have been mentioned in other posts and we will start the process of creating a council for the tier, but again I really do not agree with Boots being a primary target at all.

I'm very curious as to what you think other possible suspects could be, I don't see how any current ban is going to make any real difference in SS OU. The tier just fundamentally needs something huge to change - boots ban is the only realistic suspect I can see making a difference. The bigger question is whether you think it actually needs a change - for me, it's way too boring to watch and I do think something needs to happen.

If people are looking to stir up major fundamental change, removing Boots will do this and that anyone can admit that much. But I am not following the argument that they break or ruin the tier more than a number of other things that can be deemed problematic.

Same with Star, I'm genuinely curious about the alternative suspects you might be considering. Right now, it's almost impossible to say how any current bans would significantly reshape SS OU. A lot of people seem to think the tier seems to be in need of a substantial shake-up, and the Boots ban appears to be the most obvious avenue to change

Also in response to this, I'd like to ask whether you believe that banning any of the Pokémon you mentioned would genuinely shift the tier's dynamics? It's unclear to me how banning Lele, Pult, or Weavile would fundamentally alter the how the tier functions. We'd likely still encounter the same slow-paced battles reliant on well-thought-out strategic decisions over the long term. From my perspective, the tier currently teeters between a state that's "balanced" with Boots and an undefined state without them – I honesly don't know which is best, but I do think we should go ahead with a boots suspect to show that the council is truly willing to make change.

 

[yone]

the better player wins most of the time

I think the same.

boots ban is the only realistic suspect I can see making a difference.

But don't you think the statement above will be less in state and the tier is going to be less skill relevant after a potential boots ban ? That's the point i tried to explain in my post but my point of view has some negative points tho because as you said later in your post something need to change

 

[Finchinator]

tier just fundamentally needs something huge to change - boots ban is the only realistic suspect I can see making a difference.

This isn’t how tiering has ever worked though. You don’t just find something fundamental to change on a whim if you dislike any given tier. Otherwise tons of other things would’ve been banned across many generations.

If you think it is broken, then absolutely. There are some posts discussing that and I see no issue with that. I don’t agree, but I am also just one guy with an opinion. The argument should be framed around the impact Boots is making, not this.

 

[Myzozoa]

HDB was a headache in SS OU when I played it, here's why:

Hide

Some examples to illustrate:

At some point over a 300+ turn battle, Tapu Koko is likely to beat Ferrothorn through full paras+leech seed misses+tbolt crits.

Kyurem, now banned, is likely to beat everything w freezes+crits. It's not even hax imo, like Kyurem is actually favored, you know?

Even though I am grossly oversimplifying with these examples and am p much just extremely biased, the idea is that in SS you will get 'super haxed' in bizarre and seemingly unpredictable ways, seemingly inevitably. I would point out there is some quite funny in this particular aspect of the experience of playing SS OU because 'getting haxed' is both inevitable and unpredictable (highly randomized) (or maybe I'm just dumb).

If HDB is indeed the key factor in making ss battles long and thus more 'haxy', that's a reason to consider it uncompetitive imo.

That's what I found so frustrating about playing SS, it's like I could 'outplay' my opponent through a very risky (for me) 30+ turn sequence and then at the end my progress would be reversed by a single bad predict or a series of rolls. Indeed, 'bravely outplaying' on this or that turn, or series of turns, is not seemingly highly rewarded in ss, where as 'fishing' for freezes and future sight crits may be highly rewarded.

By enabling these drawn out affairs, HDB is contributing to wild sequences of iterated highly rng influenced turns that unexpectedly decide battles when both players are close in skill level and there is no one-sided match-up. If HDB is uncompetitive, this is why imo.

If HDB is banned, it will mean a series of additional suspect tests and perhaps quick bans on things like Mew I reckon. Contra to the OP I do NOT think it is priority to re-test things like Cinderace or Magearna w/o boots, it is much better to look at more bans first I reckon. If we ever get to re-testing things it should be when the meta is 'stable and predictable'. I would also encourage the SS council to make assertive quick bans if necessary and not to try to re-test HDB too quickly if it does get banned after a test.

Asserting that it's possible to rationally build in SS rn is sort of mystifying to me, probably I am just too dumb +do not play, so I'm sorry in advance:

People say "I need boots regenerator Slowbro to beat Urshifu and boots Torn-t to check Kartana"<- I disagree deeply w this as I see it as a 'broken things checking broken things' philosophy. I've always been a 'ban moar' type. If you tell me how to beat Tornadus-t reliably when it has 999 turns to hax you, I'll venmo you many dollars, but if your approach is more hoping it doesn't go an a ridiculous run and wreck you+hoping that your own unkillable boots rng machine (tapu koko or your own tornadus for example, even zapdos could do it w paras+hurricane!) will get more done for you in 300 turns, then maybe you can come around to supporting changes w SS.

So, while I do think it would still be helpful to just ban some other dumb mons in the tier like melmetal, I also believe there is something uncompetitive about how slow SS OU games are that would just not happen in a meta w/o boots. It's like the tier just has way too many 'thanks for making me wait, only to get haxed <3' moments and I think it can be better than that.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Keep dynamax banned, but unban gigantamax. Think about it - would make things more interesting for sure, might even give SS some more flavor. Helps alleviate the slow games issue too.

 

[Eeveeto]

Keep dynamax banned, but unban gigantamax. Think about it - would make things more interesting for sure, might even give SS some more flavor. Helps alleviate the slow games issue too.

Fully support this. Always did.

 

[Finchinator]

Keep dynamax banned, but unban gigantamax. Think about it - would make things more interesting for sure, might even give SS some more flavor. Helps alleviate the slow games issue too.

You cannot distinguish the two in good tiering faith; this was discussed to death at the start of generation 8 (and outright disallowed/disapproved).

We should by no means touch Dynamax or any subset of it if we wish to remain serious and competitive.

 

[Magcargo]

So this discussion is obviously out of my league since I'm not a tourney player + its been a while since I've played SS. However, while I think some ideas presented here are interesting, I don't understand the need to drastically shake up an otherwise established meta via changes like the ones proposed here. If there was a time to take action on stuff like Boots or Gigantimax, shouldn't it have been when the metagame was current, not after most of the playerbase has left?

I understand that Tourney + old gen players should have the largest say when it comes to older metagames, as they are the one actively playing them after all. However, sweeping changes that would affect dozens of Pokemon's viability seems like a bit much.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

You cannot distinguish the two in good tiering faith; this was discussed to death at the start of generation 8 (and outright disallowed/disapproved).

We should by no means touch Dynamax or any subset of it if we wish to remain serious and competitive.

I strongly doubt he was being serious about that.

To make this not a one-iner, unbanning/suspecting Magearna and Kyurem is a massive waste of time since they are just going to do the same shit they did when they were allowed. I do think a Cinderace suspect could be on the table though, but only if Boots are banned.

 

[HANTSUKI]

I don't have the time to read everything in the thread, but I thought a lot about some stuff related in recent years so I'll leave my opinion:

First thing: SS OU is perfectly balanced. You may try to change it because you think it's boring, but it's a really competitive tier. Any change that would happen in the tier will be because of people being bored at it. (being competitive =/= being fun, or everyone would have fun with chess or soccer, which is not the case)

Boots are not a problem at all. Banning boots would change the meta for sure but it'll become something really shitty imo. They are also not the reason why fat teams work. In fact, Boots make offense more strong in my opinion. They do help some mons in fat teams for sure, but the only one that would be unviable without it is Dragonite. Even so, those mons can't really switch for free into anything because Knock Off is a move spammable in every team, no matter the style. If I look into my builder, every SS OU team has AT LEAST 2 Knock Offers and I'm not using them because boots are centralizing the tier or anything, it's just a great move in general like we saw it dominate even DPP in recent years. Fat teams benefit from ignoring hazards for a while of course, but I think Boots are way more useful to have our reliable Weavile eating Shadow Balls and to have longevity to make progress every game. Boots help us keeping our threats (Volcarona, DD Nite, Victini) and speed controls (Koko and Zeraora) alive so we can keep putting pressure.

Come on, look at ORAS and SM and their fat teams: they usually are double Defog stall, Regen Core Balances or Clefable Spike Stacks. In ORAS the matches don't take too long usually because the Spin/Defoggers there are way worse than in SM and SS. Modern ORAS rely too much on Excadrill for removal, who is OHKOed by Spikes (and also Knock Off). Meanwhile SM got many others Defogers and fat vs fat there can take as long as SS games. So you move to SS who has a good Defog distribution like SM and you ALSO have Boots, which help offensive teams have some longevity as well. That's why you all have the impression that SS games are way longer than other gens. It's because in other gens only fat/balance teams could fight for so long.

What I think would happen to SS if Boots got banned is that fat teams would be more strong. Offense would keep some threats for sure, but their defensive backbone would be totally compromised: bad Shadow Ball switch ins and many mons OHKOed by hazards. Not only that, but the single hazard that SS offense has available is Stealth Rock. There is no Greninja to use Spikes there. Meanwhile Ferrothorn and Skarmory are laughing at them, also Pepex is ready to click that Toxic Spikes that OHKOes many offenses in ORAS/SM. The fat vs offense games would be way shorter for sure, but don't you think offense would become way more limited in this scenario? You can't really spam hazards, many threats are unviable or not that good anymore without boots...I don't know, if I wanted to WIN, I would probably use something more solid.

As for fat teams, they would just learn with old gens and run Defog/Regen/Magic Guard. More like, they already do it since realistically only 1~2 mons hold Boots in fat cores. Which finally comes to my point in why games are taking too long. For modern gens, I think there are two key factors that make stall/fat teams viable:

1- Defog: there is no fat team without hazard control in ORAS/SM/SS. Hell, in SS even with boots existing we can see many stall teams running two Defoggers. Because good builders know a basic thing: Boots are unreliable for fat teams. This playstyle is too reactive, so you are really prone to get Knock Off'd. In SV we have 6 boots stall teams, but look at the Knock Off options there and compare to SS, also compare the Spikers options too. Can you see what I mean? The only mon that I see becoming unviable in fat cores without boots in SS is Dragonite. The others can just switch to Leftovers/Rocky Helmet usually (or becoming a Chonsey in Blossey's case). Defog would just keep being a staple for any fat core like in SM. Should it be banned? Of course not, Defog is great for the game balance;

2- REGENERATOR: here is the most evil force for those who dislike longer games. Honestly, Regenerator is broken and ridiculous. Switching was a basic mechanic and really important for playing pokemon which always had drawbacks so you had to be careful when switching. You could take too much direct damage from a move or take hazards/status damage which should be putting a counter on your mon's durability. So Regen comes in and...hey, you can just pivot with no drawbacks at all! And your opponent can't stop you from doing it since it's an ability, not a move or item. It's just there...unless you really want to use those moves that change ability/Weezing. All fat teams have at least a Regen mon that let them pivot against big threats so you can scout safely. They are also the reason alongside Clefable for having those loops of switches until draw is called or someone decides to click something else (which is usually not the best move, it's just a way to TRY TO SEE SOMETHING HAPPENING OMG I'M BORED). And even if I think Regen is ridiculous...I wouldn't ban it. Sadly it's a glue we need because of the power creep pokemon got along the years. If we didn't have Regen mons, tiering would be hell, believe me. It would be easier to just make Ubers the OU tier...

There is also the (Clefable) Magic Guard factor, since Magic Guard is totally broken as an ability, but is distribution is not a problem for now at least. And for stall teams there is the Unaware factor too, but that's exclusive to stall imo and I'm not going to talk about stall only for now.

So the tl;dr of this post is that Boots are fine, Regenerator is the actual evil being that makes games take so long. None of them should be banned. There's no need for change in SS, the metagame became the most competitive it could be imo. Many times it can be really boring to play/watch, but that's the nature of the gen if Dynamax is banned. We had the option of embrace the Dyna chaos or take the most competitive route and the community decided for the latter, so this is where the route led to. If you don't have fun with it, just play other gens, we have 9 to pick and many tiers between them, each one with your particular identity. And we also don't know how the meta will adapt in later years. GSC was a 500 turns insufferable fest, but nowadays the games are way faster because of how the community adapted to it. The same can happen to SS. Maybe people will stop using boring stuff and finally realize Tapu Lele can win every game with the right set since there is no pursuiter to punish it, who knows?

I also have an opinion that people are using more fat stuff because it's "safe". I have the feeling that people are more afraid of trying wild stuff because they could easily go wrong and they would get criticized by everyone on discord/stours and also because they don't want to fail their teammates in team tours, so they opt for more safe playstyles. People just don't want to be seen as bad players and/or lose clout. I also see way more offensive teams in unofficials/other community tournaments. Might be just an old man's imagination, but that's the feeling the players have been giving me and I wanted to share - the most important part of the post is still the theorymon above.

Anyway, it's already late, time to sleep. Boomer out.

 

[Karxrida]

Was previously content to just lurk this thread since SS as a metagame is a complete enigma to me, but felt compelled to answer a couple points as a matter of discussing overall site policy and whatnot.

If there was a time to take action on stuff like Boots or Gigantimax, shouldn't it have been when the metagame was current, not after most of the playerbase has left?

I find this point reductive if not outright pointless to bring up. OP already touched on this, but hindsight is 20/20 and there's no reason why people who still care about the tier shouldn't be allowed to try to improve it.

I understand that Tourney + old gen players should have the largest say when it comes to older metagames, as they are the one actively playing them after all. However, sweeping changes that would affect dozens of Pokemon's viability seems like a bit much.

I hate how people on this site seemingly care so much about not significantly touching old gen tiers even though we've done it like twenty times. For example, DPP unbanning Latias or BW fucking with ability bans to justify dropping Excadrill back into the meta. Plus didn't RBY have some major tier shifts within the past couple years? And this isn't even going into things like the discovery of RSE Sleep Talk mechs that we have no say in.

There is something to be said about making massive changes that would be a net harm the tier, but we should not be resistant to change period. Past metas are not dead and buried because they are old -- they are ever-evolving as long as they live until they somehow become completely solved. GSC becoming faster over time was brought up earlier, for instance.

I don't know what should be done or how the tier needs to be changed, but I can tell by the general sentiment towards SS both here and offsite that something drastic should probably be done to salvage it.

First thing: SS OU is perfectly balanced. You may try to change it because you think it's boring, but it's a really competitive tier. Any change that would happen in the tier will be because of people being bored at it. (being competitive =/= being fun, or everyone would have fun with chess or soccer, which is not the case)

I do think the fun factor here is actually important, and OP and the tournament scene seemingly agree with that sentiment (even if indirectly). Who cares if the tier is fair and balanced if no one wants to play it? Everything I've heard about SS makes it out to be garbage, and the numbers back that up with its low turnout.

Also, chess and soccer are stupidly popular so really bad comparison. People actually play them.

 

[Adaam]

I’m retired and never played SS OU but I hope we don’t make generation altering changes because we find the OU version of it boring (I assume this ban affects low tiers too). I don’t see a problem with an old gen lacking developments. It’s been played for years and eventually you will explore all there is to use.

 

[Finchinator]

(I assume this ban affects low tiers too)

Tiering transitivity goes out the window once a generation becomes an old generation, meaning UU and below would remain unchanged.

Agree with the rest of your sentiment though.

 

[Eternal Spirit]

I would find it interesting to have a boots or a gigantamax suspect test, just for being curious about the final result, but sincerely, these would be just empty tries to bring a bit more hype and/or interest to the masses towards this current metagame, IMHO. The problem is that, if these "upgrades" actually go throught and the metagame suffer such a big impact of changes, we'll need to redo a lot of bans and decisions, putting us in a whole and new stage of a literal old generation, while possibly changing the SS OU identity drastically (that at least to me, is quite remarkable the way it is). It seems a big waste of time when the gen is absolutely not broken and got no deep issues to discuss about. We even reached a peak of stability at its end...

I think it'd be more productive to the players that actually like and enjoy the gen, to commit and play it more in tournaments that will eventually go up in the next few months (with Smogon Tour and Masters), in order to get closer of SS OU as an actual stable (and now old) gen. For sure we'll be able to see relevant recycling and new developments, as I enjoyed to do it myself during the last SPL, and will light up the highlights to the gen for those who haven't played it a lot in relevant stages. We dont need to assume the risk of big moves to fair, but still needless identity changes at this point of an old gen, when theres a lot to do with a whole and fresh new CG OU to develop in SV (that needs dedication of basically the entire same playerbase that would care about SS). Some times changes are cool, but when it comes to Pokémon and Smogon tiering, we probably just gotta move on and focus on the next one for new airs LOL.

By the way, I wanna bring up that I personally have SS OU as favorite and main gen atm, and definitely will pratice the meta whenever I have the opportunity to play it actively in a big stage tournament to have fun. Hopefully I will be part of any possible evolution and developments this gen still has to deliver and bring entertainment, as I did what I could for ORAS OU too.

 

[Vengeance417]

Please don't do a Gigantamax suspect. The problem with Dynamax didn't solely rely on the unpredictability on which mon was going to use it. The obscene, stupid power level increase was what broke it. You want to play vs GMax Lapras Veil teams (its Veil doesn't require Hail), GMax VenuZard sun, GMax Drednaw Rain, Shell Smash GMax Blastoise, Pseudo Shadow Tag GMax Gengar, the Russian Roulette that is GMax Butterfree, GMax Melmetal (regular form was almost banned to Ubers before Gen 9 started) etc? Hell, even something like Light Ball GMax Pikachu could be devastating with the right support.

I'm all for trying new things to spice up this tier, but this route would be way too much.