Discussion Current State of SS OU

[Will of Fire]

Thank you craing ;_; for bringing up again this hot topic. I've always been of the opinion that boots did more harm than good to the metagame and I quite disagree on the fact that they open up teambuilding. They give too much viability to certain threats that are very good already on their own (zapdos, tornadus, tapu koko or volcarona), making it a mess to punish them properly if you also add the fact that we have good pivot moves to get free switch ins . Also boots help mons like slowbro casting fs much more easily when it doesn't have to worry about hazards chip. The ou tier can eventually fill the absence of boots with the current hazard control at our disposal, a fair concern though would be losing some utility like the best off answer we currently have in weavile to shadow ball spam, since it would need a clean field to do that job(by no means I consider it a very good answer, you're always one drop away from a very bad spot, but it's no surprise that this gen lacks proper viable ghost resist). If somehow boots get suspect tested and banned then the metagame would need a very active job to intervene and patch the other holes. As you said, we have the chance to mold the game we play to aim for the most competitive iteration, since gamefreak is clearly good at making money but not good at balancing their game.

I disagree that if boots go we should retest cinderace, magearna and kyurem. The latter before its ban was having a lot of success with the never melt ice set and didn't need boots to be efficient, it also had the chance to run sub dd tect set with leftie supported by lunar dance cress to be healed back with all the pps and hp, boots definitely increased its viability but it didn't need them to be broken. Magearna lost any chance to be considered ou material the moment it got draining kiss and stored power, no heatran or slowking g can really stop that thing with setup sets. The only one of the three that I'd remotely consider for a retest would be cinderace but I have my strong doubts on it.

Changing topic, what should really disappear faster than light are the contact abilities static and flame body. I brought up this particular aspect long ago with other players and they ended up agreeing with me that they're not at all a healthy component for the meta. Heatran and zapdos are the major offender carrying the traits(volcarona counts but is not as splashable as they are). Playing around them is already challenging because by nature they're really good mons for multiple known reasons and it's not like you can just not attack them, to get rid of both you have to take a big risk in having your contact threat being statused and pretty much out of contention and not all the contact mons can afford to run protective pads. That's some pretty big restriction and you can hardly control this to minimize the odds. And if you ask me: "What makes them different from scald?", I'd say that a big difference lies in the fact that you have to consume a turn to click scald fishing for burn odds, with contact abilities you just have to stay on the field clicking other moves freely while still fishing for contact odds. Even sacking them at low hp can be risky for the opponent and I doubt we can consider these scenarios promoting any sort of skill. And if we have to keep them around like boots, just so that for example zapdos or heatran can come in to "check" kartana, then we probably missed some other issue along the road.

To me ss ou could use a lot of improvements(not because of boredom but because they're actually needed), addressing boots and contact abilities have the priority but I wouldn't mind seeing other threats ban hammered( tapu lele is one of them), what matters is not letting this thread die without actions like it usually happens.

 

[dex]

I have played a lot of SS OU. It remains my favorite OU metagame to play, probably due to the fact that no gimmicks means it’s easier on my smooth brain. However, I will be the first to admit that SS OU is imperfect in its current state. Whether or not the pursuit of balance should still occur for a tier that I do believe is already somewhat close to a good level should happen isn’t clear to me at this moment; however, I do have some ideas from personal experience as to what should (and, by exclusion, should not) be suspected should that pursuit be deemed worthy.

Could See A Test​

• Dragapult - It honestly baffles me that Dragapult remained untested for the entirety of SS OU’s final DLC. It is quite rare for an offensive Pokémon as ubiquitous and impactful as Dragapult to go unnoticed, yet it somehow managed to slip under the radar. Dragapult is the source of a lot of consternation and restriction in teambuilding, from the necessity of Weavile to the proliferation of Regen-Spam. That last example is particularly important, as I, and I believe others, see that as an unhealthy playstyle, a playstyle that is really forced in some compositions due to the pressure exerted by a strong, fast, STAB Shadow Ball (man, what a broken move!) There were some in this thread clamoring for a Weavile suspect, but I truly believe that without Dragapult, Weavile would not see as much use. Essentially, a lot of what people tend to complain about regarding SS OU stems from Dragapult. It has that much of an effect on the metagame, and I think it should be the first suspect subject if any are to occur.​
• Tapu Lele - To be honest, there isn’t much new here. Tapu Lele is broke and has been broke since it came out in SM. Without Megas taming it, I do feel like it’s somewhat stronger in SS than it was in SM, and I can see the reasoning for a test. Luckily for it, Melmetal remains in the tier, and I do think it’s prediction-reliant playstyle, as much of an overstatement as that is given it’s inherent STAB spamminess, limit it somewhat. However, I think there is enough reasoning to say that Tapu Lele is unhealthy for the tier to at least see where a suspect leaves it.
  
  
  Do Not Test​
• Weavile - I truly believe that Weavile’s popularity and perceived power level are as much a product of the metagame as they are of the Pokemon’s actual strength. It does so, so much in ways of checking the above 2 threats that I think removing it will lead to a much more unhealthy tier. In correlation, I could Weavile’s popularity dropping somewhat if Dragapult/Tapu Lele leave the tier (Tapu Lele’s effect here is definitely debatable). Consistent Weavile checks are also not as hard to come by; offensive checks in Melmetal and Urshifu exist as well as consistent defensive options like Clefable and Toxapex (as well as inconsistent ones like Tapu Fini). Weavile should, flatly, stay.​
• Heavy-Duty Boots - SS OU is, despite what some seem to think of it, a quite diverse metagame. Obviously, fatter teams are viable, but so are a whole host of other playstyles such as hyper offense, balance, weather, etc. If anything, SS OU is a much more welcoming building environment than most other OU past generations when it comes to archetype diversity. A large part of this is the proliferation of Heavy-Duty Boots, which I think have had an actual positive impact on builder diversity, contrary to how they have been portrayed. Without the item, I do think that offensive playstyles would absolutely rule the roost in the metagame. Additionally, the viability, and popularity, no less, of offensive builds in the current metagame suggest that stall and semi stall builds are not as dominant as they are portrayed and that, at least in some way, the benefits of Heavy-Duty Boots go both ways. The item is not worth testing, and I think the tier would be much less interesting and diverse without it.​

TL;DR: Pult and Lele could get tested, please leave Weav and Boots alone.

 

[craing ;_;]

I do not think Heavy-Duty Boots are broken. I think that they are glue that helps the tier remain playable more than anything. There are seldom “boots spam” teams like we have in SV, where they are really necessary, and more just pivots and SR weak Pokemon relying upon them for easier access. From a building perspective, I think it’s hard to build without Boots right now as you diminish a pool of pretty important Pokemon that check things (I.e Zapdos and Tornadus-T for Kartana or Slowbro for Urshifu-R), but most teams only use 1-2 boots users in practice, so it’s not like a lazy out per se either.

I think that wanting change in a now stagnant SS metagame is a good idea though. A lot of teambuilding is handcuffed by Future Sight and a lot of gameplay strategy is left inconsistent due to Static and Flame Body. These are admittedly awkward tiering topics, but worthy of discussion. Pokemon like Weavile and even Tapu Lele or Dragapult also create limited, circular dynamics in the builder and in games, but Weavile is arguably needed for Shadow Ball and there’s some give-and-take to any ban. I think they all should be discussed though — we do not just want to keep the status quo because it’s delicately held. If anything, that’s reason to discuss and potentially act.

If people are looking to stir up major fundamental change, removing Boots will do this and that anyone can admit that much. But I am not following the argument that they break or ruin the tier more than a number of other things that can be deemed problematic.

I don't really get the logic behind going after Heavy Duty Boots at all tbh, and I feel like singling it out as the thing that makes SS games long is just silly. The fatter balances that are so common rarely ever use more than 1-2 boots mons and often those mons (Weavile, Torn) are actually the things that force progress. These structures are so common and good because Clef is Clef, Future Sight is extremely good (and the users certainly don't require Boots, often running other items) and there are so many strong fat mons (Melmetal, Heatran, Dragonite etc). Banning boots really misses the point in my opinion and I honestly don't understand at all how you can make a case for them being broken.

Generally, I do think SS OU needs further exploration and the only tournaments it's been in since the gen ended were the SPL and STour that came directly after and for obvious reasons the tier wasn't ever going to be very hyped there. I think with Masters coming up and next SPL with more distance from the gen ending we will ideally see people delving back into it more and having some kind of general development. That being said, I do think there are certainly other possibilities for changes in SS OU that have been mentioned in other posts and we will start the process of creating a council for the tier, but again I really do not agree with Boots being a primary target at all.

I believe Boots are completely fine, makes BO teams stronger and more consistent and especially future sight+ teleport into weav/shifu/zeraora/buzz or any breaker.
It also makes pivoting more valuable, (volt switch zeraora/koko, teleport, u-turn on any Pokemon who requires boots in their set, im thinking about mandibuzz for example) and interesting because in that way it forces both players to think on the long term.
If somehow the SS end with boots banned, i think it will be a SM bis where stack hazard will be extremely strong and will lead to a rise of rapid spin/defog, means excadrill/corviknight/skarmory who are extremely weak to Magnezone, and with body press now its gonna be a pain, I don't really count landorus and rotom because at high level its really easy to play around them and to cheap them.
Since for example, Ferrothorn has access to hazards+knock off and sustain with leech seed and potential leftovers.
Also some pokemon absolutely need boots for a defensive balance, Zapdos, slowbro, slowking...
I can't imagine how pain sd kartana will be if there s no boots zapdos for example.
But also in an offensive pov, a weavile who can only come 3/4 times because the opp brings magnezone + other mons, considering that at least 1 of them "checks" weavile, it can be urshifu, ferrothorn or toxapex for example. Multiple combinations and strategies relying on the hazards can be made and will just make the tier "unplayable" or will lead to more suspect tests/bans and i don't really think that it is what the SS needs

Just going to group these since they are very similar. I definitely see where you all are coming from and agree with you. I do not think boots is obviously broken enough to warrant a ban, but I do believe it is an unhealthy aspect of the metagame that should be examined. There are definitely not as much viable boots abuser in the tier for each game currently, but the main abusers that have been mentioned do take advantage of it to an unhealthy extent. Banning boots alleviates pressure on the teambuilder and makes it much more manageable to punish these pokemon that would
otherwise get relatively free pivots with momentum based moves. You can argue the fact that these pokemon can also run other items depending on what benefits its team the most, but by removing a punishless item like boots, they are a lot more limited in what they can do. I agree with Will of Fire on most of what he says regarding this so I will mostly defer to his explanation on why boots affects the competitiveness of the tier to a negative degree.

Magearna and Cinderace were both unbanned for DLC2 in October 2020 and were both later re-banned late February 2021. We held a survey back then in which the community agreed that both of them were too strong for OU and required action.

Magearna I can not comment on with much certainty which is why I suggested a suspect, I just think its defensive profile is something that is extremely crucial in a tapu lele, weavile, and dragapult based metagame, but let's use cinderace as a case study shall we? I think most people would agree that cinderace would not be as broken if it lost the ability to use boots. It was really only overbearing due to the fact that it was extremely hard to punish and manage because of it. There is precedent for unbanning a pokemon such as this, as this is effectively the same as unbanning excadrill in bw. Banning sand rush in the tier removed the broken element to it and gave the tier a much needed alternative for hazard removal, thereby progressing the metagame in a much healthier direction. Cinderace has a different role (though it can function as hazard control with court change) which is primarily as an offensive pivot/breaker. Being able to keep a lot of threats in check due to its speed, power and coverage is something that not much pokemon can boast, and adds a factor of skill and strategic depth to its gameplay, as I'm sure most players can attest to from having used it while it was still in the tier. But is banning boots just to keep cinderace in the tier a smart decision? Of course not, it only worked for excadrill at the cost of losing the ability to use other inconsequential sand rush abusers in the tier. There's no way it's the same for an item which affects the viablity of a lot of integral pokemon in the tier. But if said item were to, for the most part, negatively affect the health of the tier itself, that's worth consideration.

This is how a lot of people felt about ORAS OU for a very long time, but as you said, after enough time, ORAS OU players improved their community and improved the tier tremendously, but change like that doesn't happen overnight. It's only been 1 year since SS has ended, and as time goes on, it's possible for it to end up better in the long run just like ORAS OU did.

I think giving SS OU time to establish a community and then seeing how it progresses would be a good start, and that ORAS OU is a perfect example for how things can work out without any drastic changes.

See that's where your wrong. Let me rephrase this is in no uncertain terms. If nothing changes now, nothing will change for the foreseeable future, regardless of how much more time you allow the tier to progress. This is mostly because of the nature and limitations of the generation itself. I touched upon this before in my original post of how centralized this metagame is compared to others, and common denominator that I identified is boots. For me it's been 3 years too long and I don't care for relying on the uncertainties of a relatively dead player base for a past metagame to progress or attempt to self correct itself, when it's self apparent that it's impossible for it to do so in the first place without any kind of drastic change.

This meta game is already incredibly balanced, the only thing worth considering for a ban is static/flame body or scald. Your weavile getting burned and effectively ending the game bc you knock off trans leftovers on the switch is stupid, not to mention that kartana is useless (unless its pads) now that static and flame body are present in the meta game. Methodically breaking a team is a lot easier without having to worry about the 30% abilities which end the game. It would also shorten these long games people complain about but that shouldn't be a concern of the playerbase when balancing a meta game. Banning boots is just short sighted

The only static and flame body mons in the tier are zapdos, heatran and volcarona, two of which rely on boots and one not having reliable recovery. I hope you can see how my argument of banning boots would limit the ability of these pokemon to switch in freely to punish with said abilities. While the idea of banning contact abilities is appealing, they are not as huge of an issue in past gens since, unsurprisingly, boots did not exist! Also, even though we play pokemon competitively, it is also a game of odds that is supposed to be managed, so I do think banning contact abilities, if I were to borrow your words, would be short sighted. My personal recommendation if you are that upset over debilitating status and having to use pads is pairing said mons with misty terrain or cleric support.

I would find it interesting to have a boots or a gigantamax suspect test, just for being curious about the final result, but sincerely, these would be just empty tries to bring a bit more hype and/or interest to the masses towards this current metagame, IMHO. The problem is that, if these "upgrades" actually go throught and the metagame suffer such a big impact of changes, we'll need to redo a lot of bans and decisions, putting us in a whole and new stage of a literal old generation, while possibly changing the SS OU identity drastically (that at least to me, is quite remarkable the way it is). It seems a big waste of time when the gen is absolutely not broken and got no deep issues to discuss about. We even reached a peak of stability at its end...

I think it'd be more productive to the players that actually like and enjoy the gen, to commit and play it more in tournaments that will eventually go up in the next few months (with Smogon Tour and Masters), in order to get closer of SS OU as an actual stable (and now old) gen. For sure we'll be able to see relevant recycling and new developments, as I enjoyed to do it myself during the last SPL, and will light up the highlights to the gen for those who haven't played it a lot in relevant stages. We dont need to assume the risk of big moves to fair, but still needless identity changes at this point of an old gen, when theres a lot to do with a whole and fresh new CG OU to develop in SV (that needs dedication of basically the entire same playerbase that would care about SS). Some times changes are cool, but when it comes to Pokémon and Smogon tiering, we probably just gotta move on and focus on the next one for new airs LOL.

By the way, I wanna bring up that I personally have SS OU as favorite and main gen atm, and definitely will pratice the meta whenever I have the opportunity to play it actively in a big stage tournament to have fun. Hopefully I will be part of any possible evolution and developments this gen still has to deliver and bring entertainment, as I did what I could for ORAS OU too.

This is a post I don't necessarily disagree with. You're right the current metagame is pretty balanced for what it ended up being, but my call to action isn't to make the tier more fun or develop more interest in the tier itself necessarily, but rather make it more competitive and skill based. I think an even better metagame than this supposed balanced one that we've come to accept is one in which many different playstyles can thrive, and not just the bulky offense/balance teams that are seen more often than not. We can just continue on with this current metagame and develop it as much as we can going forward. However, I don't believe that would at all be feasible for a lot of the reasons already mentioned. The path of least resistance is what got us here, and is how smogon approaches its tiering more often than not. I personally believe a more proactive approach is necessary in this instance, especially when a lot of dissatisfaction in the tier stems from a multitude of factors that culminate into an undesirable game to be played. Sorry, but I'd rather get into this uncomfortable discussion on past gen tiering and deal with it now than suffer through the ramifications of nothing happening later down the line for years to come.

I don't have the time to read everything in the thread, but I thought a lot about some stuff related in recent years so I'll leave my opinion:

First thing: SS OU is perfectly balanced. You may try to change it because you think it's boring, but it's a really competitive tier. Any change that would happen in the tier will be because of people being bored at it. (being competitive =/= being fun, or everyone would have fun with chess or soccer, which is not the case)

Boots are not a problem at all. Banning boots would change the meta for sure but it'll become something really shitty imo. They are also not the reason why fat teams work. In fact, Boots make offense more strong in my opinion. They do help some mons in fat teams for sure, but the only one that would be unviable without it is Dragonite. Even so, those mons can't really switch for free into anything because Knock Off is a move spammable in every team, no matter the style. If I look into my builder, every SS OU team has AT LEAST 2 Knock Offers and I'm not using them because boots are centralizing the tier or anything, it's just a great move in general like we saw it dominate even DPP in recent years. Fat teams benefit from ignoring hazards for a while of course, but I think Boots are way more useful to have our reliable Weavile eating Shadow Balls and to have longevity to make progress every game. Boots help us keeping our threats (Volcarona, DD Nite, Victini) and speed controls (Koko and Zeraora) alive so we can keep putting pressure.

Come on, look at ORAS and SM and their fat teams: they usually are double Defog stall, Regen Core Balances or Clefable Spike Stacks. In ORAS the matches don't take too long usually because the Spin/Defoggers there are way worse than in SM and SS. Modern ORAS rely too much on Excadrill for removal, who is OHKOed by Spikes (and also Knock Off). Meanwhile SM got many others Defogers and fat vs fat there can take as long as SS games. So you move to SS who has a good Defog distribution like SM and you ALSO have Boots, which help offensive teams have some longevity as well. That's why you all have the impression that SS games are way longer than other gens. It's because in other gens only fat/balance teams could fight for so long.

What I think would happen to SS if Boots got banned is that fat teams would be more strong. Offense would keep some threats for sure, but their defensive backbone would be totally compromised: bad Shadow Ball switch ins and many mons OHKOed by hazards. Not only that, but the single hazard that SS offense has available is Stealth Rock. There is no Greninja to use Spikes there. Meanwhile Ferrothorn and Skarmory are laughing at them, also Pepex is ready to click that Toxic Spikes that OHKOes many offenses in ORAS/SM. The fat vs offense games would be way shorter for sure, but don't you think offense would become way more limited in this scenario? You can't really spam hazards, many threats are unviable or not that good anymore without boots...I don't know, if I wanted to WIN, I would probably use something more solid.

As for fat teams, they would just learn with old gens and run Defog/Regen/Magic Guard. More like, they already do it since realistically only 1~2 mons hold Boots in fat cores. Which finally comes to my point in why games are taking too long. For modern gens, I think there are two key factors that make stall/fat teams viable:

1- Defog: there is no fat team without hazard control in ORAS/SM/SS. Hell, in SS even with boots existing we can see many stall teams running two Defoggers. Because good builders know a basic thing: Boots are unreliable for fat teams. This playstyle is too reactive, so you are really prone to get Knock Off'd. In SV we have 6 boots stall teams, but look at the Knock Off options there and compare to SS, also compare the Spikers options too. Can you see what I mean? The only mon that I see becoming unviable in fat cores without boots in SS is Dragonite. The others can just switch to Leftovers/Rocky Helmet usually (or becoming a Chonsey in Blossey's case). Defog would just keep being a staple for any fat core like in SM. Should it be banned? Of course not, Defog is great for the game balance;

2- REGENERATOR: here is the most evil force for those who dislike longer games. Honestly, Regenerator is broken and ridiculous. Switching was a basic mechanic and really important for playing pokemon which always had drawbacks so you had to be careful when switching. You could take too much direct damage from a move or take hazards/status damage which should be putting a counter on your mon's durability. So Regen comes in and...hey, you can just pivot with no drawbacks at all! And your opponent can't stop you from doing it since it's an ability, not a move or item. It's just there...unless you really want to use those moves that change ability/Weezing. All fat teams have at least a Regen mon that let them pivot against big threats so you can scout safely. They are also the reason alongside Clefable for having those loops of switches until draw is called or someone decides to click something else (which is usually not the best move, it's just a way to TRY TO SEE SOMETHING HAPPENING OMG I'M BORED). And even if I think Regen is ridiculous...I wouldn't ban it. Sadly it's a glue we need because of the power creep pokemon got along the years. If we didn't have Regen mons, tiering would be hell, believe me. It would be easier to just make Ubers the OU tier...

There is also the (Clefable) Magic Guard factor, since Magic Guard is totally broken as an ability, but is distribution is not a problem for now at least. And for stall teams there is the Unaware factor too, but that's exclusive to stall imo and I'm not going to talk about stall only for now.

So the tl;dr of this post is that Boots are fine, Regenerator is the actual evil being that makes games take so long. None of them should be banned. There's no need for change in SS, the metagame became the most competitive it could be imo. Many times it can be really boring to play/watch, but that's the nature of the gen if Dynamax is banned. We had the option of embrace the Dyna chaos or take the most competitive route and the community decided for the latter, so this is where the route led to. If you don't have fun with it, just play other gens, we have 9 to pick and many tiers between them, each one with your particular identity. And we also don't know how the meta will adapt in later years. GSC was a 500 turns insufferable fest, but nowadays the games are way faster because of how the community adapted to it. The same can happen to SS. Maybe people will stop using boring stuff and finally realize Tapu Lele can win every game with the right set since there is no pursuiter to punish it, who knows?

I also have an opinion that people are using more fat stuff because it's "safe". I have the feeling that people are more afraid of trying wild stuff because they could easily go wrong and they would get criticized by everyone on discord/stours and also because they don't want to fail their teammates in team tours, so they opt for more safe playstyles. People just don't want to be seen as bad players and/or lose clout. I also see way more offensive teams in unofficials/other community tournaments. Might be just an old man's imagination, but that's the feeling the players have been giving me and I wanted to share - the most important part of the post is still the theorymon above.

Anyway, it's already late, time to sleep. Boomer out.

My specialty is from building and playing gen 6 and gen 7, as well as some of gen 8 competitively so I think I can comment on what you said about those tiers competently enough. Funnily enough, it is because I have played those tiers at an extremely high echelon that I am proposing what I am based on that experience. You are correct in saying that being competitive =/= fun, especially since 'fun' as a concept can be considered to be extremely subjective for both players and spectators alike. Rather, I am arguing in favor for a more competitive tier than what it currently is. Your argument that boots is healthy for the tier on the basis that the boots abusers can check threatening mons by virtue of longevity is paradoxically true for the boots abusers themselves. You say that boots would keep them alive to apply pressure and make progress, but is it not also true that if boots didn't exist, you can apply pressure and make progress with hazards? This avoids limited, circular dynamics in builder and in game as Finchinator put it, as it enables these supposed threats in the first place and maintains an even playing field on both sides. The consequence of this, which you brought up, is that hazard management becomes a lot more of a priority to manage.

I'm not sure why you actually think that's a bad thing though, especially for a tier that lacks in power creep and has much higher amounts of hazard removal distribution compared to gen 6 and 7. If we were to use previous generations as a means of comparison, I think it would be a change for the better. Having to deal with the consequences of hazards and removal applies to all teams and playstyles, isolating the benefit of boots solely to offensive mons so teams don't have to prioritize removal is obtuse and uninformed, since balance and bulky offense will be equally just as pressured and those playstyles can abuse boots to a similar standard. Offense has the added advantage of easily applying offensive pressure and forcing kills/sacs, which is a luxury that defensive teams don't. If you think that offense lacks in spikers to pressure, I see no reason for fringe spikers to pop up like lead mew, skarmory, klefki or even froslass in a bootsless meta. This is not even mentioning the number of potentially viable and preexisting defoggers that would now be used that would benefit every playstyle, but I'm sure that those hyper offense teams would rather take advantage of other things as opposed to hazard spam to make progress like screens, terrain, or weather abuse. Your argument on regenerator being a lot more difficult to deal with this generation in particular is also a consequence of the lack of power creep and boots being in the tier. Similarly to the contact move abilities, boots augments the severity of these abilities to a detrimental degree, and doing away with them would uncomplicate a lot of issues in the tier.

After going through most of this thread, I have yet to read any strong arguments that validly disprove of what I suggest, especially since people are arguing in the context of the current metagame with boots, which I think is disingenuous. I also appreciate the fact that the people who have commented are thinking and questioning for themselves rather than just blindly accepting what I say at face value, and are taking a stance on what should or shouldn't be done. That being said, there is an extremely valid degree of skepticism that is warranted and is on the onus of me who suggested something as radical as this to substantiate. So, I will just briefly go through and rate all the potentially affected mons whose viability would be impacted if boots were to get banned for added transparency. G being a good change for the tier, B being a bad change for the tier, N being a neutral change for the tier (as in the mon would still be viable and can adapt or would have no impact).

: more often than not uses choice sets. N
: will have to use lefties or resort back to using chansey which functions the same. N
: defensive sets that would use boots prefer rocky helmet, but if needs longevity will go lefties. N
: only for unaware sets, which will go lefties but magic guard is more common. N
: loses effectiveness as an offensive pivot without affecting its other sets, would probably use lefties, spell tag or type resist berry. G
: borderline unviable. B
: would have to go back to lefties, rocky helmet or type resist berry. G
: loses effectiveness as an offensive pivot, would probably use lefties or magnet. N
: goes back to using most likely rocky helmet or life orb. G
: defensive sets would lose the option to run boots and would have to use lefties. N
: borderline unviable? B
: generally prefers specs, but loses the option to run boots as well, would have to run type resist berry or lefties to switch up moves. N
: bulky qd requires more support now, but offensive sets can still work with life orb or lum berry. N
: band is still viable, but for sd sets would probably use life orb or nevermeltice. G
: would have to go back to lefties or rocky helmet. G
: loses effectiveness as an offensive pivot, would probably use lefties or pads. N

: too dangerous to check if it has boots with hail active, can still use lefties. G
: can still use lefties. N
: can still use lefties. N
: fell out of the metagame anyway due to being too prone to status and unreliability defogging to common setter. N
: fell out of the metagame anyway due to no cinderace or magearna to check. N
: fell out of the metagame anyway due to home mons being added in garchomp, land-t, heatran. N
: can still use lefties on defensive sets. N
: lol. B
: webs might potentially be viable now. G
: magic bounce is more likely to be viable. G
: more defog use means defiant may be more abusable. G


I didn't exhaustively go over everything since I wouldn't want to deprive the enjoyment in exploring a potentially new metagame, but as far as most of the key things that are concerned, I see a net positive in a bootsless metagame, since it would obviously fix a lot of issues with our current one. Losing some fringe options in dragonite and victini does suck, but I'd say it is worth the potential payoff of what we can get out of this change.

Although this is an extremely divisive problem that I believe people need to think about at length and deliberate on before coming to their logical conclusions, nothing will happen unless we as a community can decide going forward what should happen. In the interest of streamlining this process, can someone important make an official poll or vote to gauge what everyone thinks? Make sure to tag people who have played this tier in recent years and have ranked highly in official tournaments and other miscellaneous requirements (sorry I don't know how this usually works), hopefully to get the ball rolling a little bit faster. Since I would imagine that having to deal with potential tiering with regards to gen 8 when gen 9 dlc is on the horizon would be pretty hectic. Regardless of what you think should be done, I think everyone will at the very least be somewhat satisfied on the end result based on what the majority of people think. I already put too much effort into this post and don't care to try to convince people anymore than I already have, so I'll just leave it here with a video that popped into my feed recently which I felt was appropriate, interpret it how you will.

 

[pulsar512b]

saw this thread & figured i should respond in defense
(sorry couldn't figure out how to get quotes to work nicely when submitting a PR access request & not worth fixing)

qualifications: ive played as much ss ou as any other person on this site in the last few years, i have also been building quite actively, helped build in SSPL and made semis there, got top 12 in the summer seasonal. ive been consistently laddering both on my main & my alt pieceofurheart, hit #1 a few times (not that hard but it shows that i have plenty of hours in the tier) etc etc.

the original post shows a questionable understanding of SS & in general supports a lot of strawmans and incorrect statements that have been perpetuated for ages.

However, that does not seem to be the case for the present state of SS OU. I think it's no secret that people have considered it to be one of the most lifeless OU tiers in terms of spectating/playing. I believe it is one of the contributing factors for interest in this site's competitive tournament scene to have fallen in decline in recent years.

i think the considerations are due to a bunch of false and untrue strawmen (which you have helpfully laid out in the rest of this post). other than that I think there's a variety of other reasons that are unrelated to tiering such as the lack of a generational gimmick, dexit, burnout from it being the CG for the while, and the absolute state of resources and forum projects (analyses did get a bunch of new sets recently, but it came nowhere near to solving the problem and in a couple cases worsened the matter, the VR hasn't gotten an update since the end of CG and has many many glaring issues, I am not trying to point fingers and I know there are good reasons and it's no one person's fault, but it is still awful)

Now I have spoken to some top players and watched my fair share of recent high level games, and the general consensus that I've gathered from those that still actively play the tier that argue in its favor is that gen 8 OU is a relatively skill based tier that rewards patient play and long term planning. I have been out of practice and retired for some time, but I do want to ask some questions to those people. Is this the most balanced metagame that SS OU can become? Has it undergone any new or potentially interesting developments in recent years? Do you actively enjoy playing and building in this tier? As someone who foresaw that this state of stagnation would happen years ago and left partially due to it, if you ask me any of those questions now I would be inclined to say, for the most part, no not really. So how can we fix this? How can we make it so that SS OU can possibly compare in quality to past and future generations of OU? How can it live up to its potential?

While I might not be an absolute top player yet, I think I would like to respond regardless.

Is this the most balanced metagame that SS OU can become? Maybe? There's one or two things I would like to be considered, but SS OU is still far and away the best and most balanced tier I have ever seen.

Has it undergone any new or potentially interesting developments in recent years? I think so. Stuff like offensive 3a defog zapdos, sub tbolt zapdos, modest pult have been quite significant adaptions over the years.

Do you actively enjoy playing and building in this tier? If I haven't made it clear yet, the answer is a resounding yes.

This has resulted in a metagame with unhealthy game states that primarily revolve around toxic protect stall, regen and
knock off/trick spam, and double switching often for favourable matchups/positioning to make any sort of headway. These of course are not the only viable strategies in the tier, but when it overshadows the vast majority of playstyles, I see a problem. A problem that people have deluded themselves into thinking is somehow acceptable.

Toxic protect stall is ran on exactly 3 mons ever in SS OU - heatran, melmetal, and garchomp. It is somewhat uncommon on heatran (and I think is usually the incorrect choice). Melmetal can run it, but i don't think it's clearly it's best set or anything. It is just one of the 10 options in it's toolbox. Garchomp does run it the most of the three on tank sets, but it's still not universal there and tank is far from the only option. I think this at least is definitively not something that the metagame or gameplay of the tier revolves around. Regen and knock off/trick spam is a little more reasonable, but I personally don't think it's something that gameplay usually revolves around again. Finally, double switching often for favourable matchups/positioning just sounds like skillful playing of pokemon. I don't get what the problem is with this.

Now I'm not saying you're wrong if you like the current state of SS OU, all I ask is for you to think about and consider it, and open your mind to the possibilities beyond the status quo. If we were to ban boots, do you think it would make the tier less skill based and not reward patient play or long term planning?

idt this matters when hdb are simply not broken. they do not make the game less skillful. there is no right for hazards to be a free way to make progress. if you don't like that things can avoid hazards then that's fine, but that is not some inherently good trait.

If this were to come to pass, I also believe that resuspecting cinderace, magearna, and kyurem in the tier should be on the plate.

This is ludicrous. Cinderace I can kinda see but Magearna and Kyurem are just ridiculous. Kyurem's best and most broken set was specs which didn't even run hdb, and Magearna never did. I don't think they were helped by HDB being around in more indirect ways either.

There is no avid playerbase for this tier that would actively try to progress it further and people will only play it if they have to, since it is a part of important tournaments such as SPL, Smogon Tour, and the up and coming Smogon Masters.

I think on the contrary there is a reasonable playerbase for the tier. SSPL had about 50% more signups than SMPL for instance (I chose these because they have similar prestige & started at similar times) . While many of these people are perhaps not at a level for this, i think this probably shows reasonably well that there are a lot of players who actively want to play this tier.

If nothing happens in spite of all this, so be it. But I just want to ask, do you really want to keep playing and watching this stale SS OU metagame for the foreseeable future, where more often than not people will just recycle teams because it's a 'solved' metagame? Especially considering the fact that this format is currently supported in 3 official tournaments? I sure don't when I believe it can be so much more diverse and interesting, but if most people don't mind spending on average 100+ turns per game then I suppose I'm the crazy one.

(bold mine)
First - that is not something inherently bad. long patient good games are arguably better than short offense filled games

second- that's bullshit. 100 turn games do not happen on average. I'll probably gather some statistics to back it up but a comfortable majority of games don't go nearly that long, and every single gen has plenty of 100+ tier long crazy games I can point at and say haha this tier bad.

third - if you don't want to play 100+ turn games, there are options. i think the best team in the tier right now in fact doesn't have 100+ turn games almost at all (german offense, the 6 of shifu lando zapdos pult lele melm), and there's plenty of room to build other similar offenses that are quite strong (and I have been very much leaning into that style)

while I don't think that SS is stagnant, what do I think maybe should be done about SS OU?
I think the only things I would personally want to address rn in SS OU is 1) ban of quick claw/quick draw and 2) dragapult. QC/QD is more of a competitiveness argument than a power level argument, along the lines of king's rock. probably not for this thread, might make another thread at some point. as far as dragapult goes, modest specs sets are nigh-unwallable in a lot of cases and it can blow through almost anything. in general it feels like I have to stack checks to it to feel reasonable about my chances into it, or just go for out offensing it. I don't know if it should be banned but if you want to suspect something this is a natural choice

quickly gonna cover other posts that were written while i wrote this essay

I think finch's post is much more reasonable, and I would also support having a ladder test as opposed to the standard of just making a voter list of people that have played in major tours to break down some barriers and not require you to be networking and getting into team tours and such to have a say - this does kinda go off topic tho and I would be fine with either.

I think eeveeto's suggestions are also not good. I can kinda see 1 but I do highly dislike it and it seems kinda random and complex-banny, 2 finch already covered, 3 seems very strange and doesn't really make sense @ all to me, and their Route 1 and Route 2 suggestions are very bad. Route 1 is slightly more reasonable, but mew?? really?. and the rest are completely balanced. As far as route 2, ZamaC already got tested at some point (maybe hero could be tested, I would probably be in favour of that for more philosophical reasons than anything else and i could see that being a good idea), and kyurem, spectrier, and pheromosa are just too much. they were insane in their time, they would be even more insane now. out of the question. zygarde is one I don't have personal experience playing with/against.


TPP's post says a lot of what I was going to say as well and I think it's by far the best post in the thread so far.

also gonna very briefly say that dex's post is great (got posted while i was waiting for access)

anyway peace out & if you want to talk more about SS or get advice or build or whatever feel free to dm me here or on discord and i would be very willing to talk about it. also good discussion in #general of the ss discord if you want to take a glance there too, very good people there

(Edited to remove accidental random letters)

 

[1LDK]

second- that's bullshit. 100 turn games do not happen on average. I'll probably gather some statistics to back it up but a comfortable majority of games don't go nearly that long, and every single gen has plenty of 100+ tier long crazy games I can point at and say haha this tier bad.

Your statistic to back up your statement, sir (that ill be 50 dollars)

Anyway, I had a post planned, but I don't wanna post it because it doesn't really bring any solution to the problem at hand, but since I'm posting a stat, might as well drop my personal opinion

The short of what I wanted to say was, I don't think this tier can be "fixed" without changing its identity, because the thing with gen 8, is that it works, its not broken, so why would you fix it? But here is the thing, with all the other options in store, who wants to buy in the "tofu" section

So now we enter the "fun" debate, and "fun" is not in the tiering philosophy, therefore, you can't really do anything because
a) tier itself is not broken
b) tiering philosophy is not going to advocate for the fun

I honestly don't think boots are broken, knock off is everywhere, and eventually either you or your opponent will have to double or be forced to do something else, even if it takes 60 turns to do so

I honestly don't like gen 8, and I don't think its an uncommon opinion to have, but unless you can convince enough people that HDB are really the big problem, then that's the way out

 

[pulsar512b]

View attachment 547728

Your statistic to back up your statement, sir (that ill be 50 dollars)

Anyway, I had a post planned, but I don't wanna post it because it doesn't really bring any solution to the problem at hand, but since I'm posting a stat, might as well drop my personal opinion

The short of what I wanted to say was, I don't think this tier can be "fixed" without changing its identity, because the thing with gen 8, is that it works, its not broken, so why would you fix it? But here is the thing, with all the other options in store, who wants to buy in the "tofu" section

So now we enter the "fun" debate, and "fun" is not in the tiering philosophy, therefore, you can't really do anything because
a) tier itself is not broken
b) tiering philosophy is not going to advocate for the fun

I honestly don't think boots are broken, knock off is everywhere, and eventually either you or your opponent will have to double or be forced to do something else, even if it takes 60 turns to do so

I honestly don't like gen 8, and I don't think its an uncommon opinion to have, but unless you can convince enough people that HDB are really the big problem, then that's the way out

thank you for the statistic.

What I would say as a rebuttal to the last point (finch sorta brought this up earlier) is that if a metagame is balanced and there are no broken and uncompetitive elements, then no action should be taken. You have the right to not like a tier. I have the right to not like (for instance) most lower tiers. I have the right to not like RBY or GSC or ADV. You have the right to dislike this tier. That does not mean you have the right to call for random, unfounded tiering action. I would even go so far to say that this holds true even if most people don't enjoy a tier. Feel free to call for tiering action if you think something is broken or uncompetitive.

This might be unsatisfying to you and I do understand that, but this is just correct and how smogon tiering has worked.

(also tofu is nice smh)