Darkrai: Just hear me out.

People talking about switching Darkrai in...can't you just start it? Save your Dark Void for the counter, and just own whatever happens to be standing in front of you. It doesn't have to come in too many times. Besides, it's almost inevitable that you'll lose a Pokemon (or win anyways). Feel free to bring in Darkrai to receive some vengeance.

OU Pokemon faster or equal speed to Darkrai:
Deoxys-S: Don't know much about this guy, so I can't say much. I do remember that Deoxys-S can run Superpower, though.
Ninjask: Why are you still here again?
Jolteon: I'm not sure if this guy is still OU, but then again, what can Jolteon even do to you? Thunderbolt you? I don't think that will deal a whole ton of damage to you, honestly. Own face with one of your various special attacks.
Weavile: I can only imagine that you switch out in the face of a Brick Break, since Pursuit won't be dealing very much damage to you on a switch out anyways. Besides the fact that Weavile doesn't have a whole lot it can do to you besides Brick Break. Or, if you're bored, you could just attempt to be really lucky and drop a Dark Void or Focus Blast from the sky.

BL Pokemon faster or equal speed to Darkrai:
Aerodactyl: Probably a switch-out. Aerodactyl can deal a good amount of damage with a STAB Stone Edge/Rock Slide on a Choice Band. Most builds are like that, anyways. On the other hand, if that move won't KO you (not good at math or damage calculators), then Ice Beam/Thunderbolt away.
Crobat: This guy does one thing well: Hypnosis. So, switch to some other thing.

Stuff with Choice Scarf will probably be really obvious. Like, "Why is this Heracross switching in to my Darkrai?" or something like that. Either that, or the "stuff with Choice Scarf" won't deal enough damage to be worthy of your worry.

Honestly, I really want to know why anyone feels that we need to include Darkrai in the current OU. We already know it will be good, considering how many comparisons to Gengar are going around. The two Pokemon are fairly similar, and if that means anything, it means Darkrai will be at or around Gengar level power at worst. Do we need Darkrai in OU? Is there some special reason that it should be included? Because as far as I know, it's serving its purpose quite well in the land of Ubers.

Edit: Banned in Battle Tower means nothing, by the way. Considering they banned Jirachi and Celebi, I think they probably banned the main Legendary Pokemon from every game (Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Palkia, and Dialga), then banned every event-only Pokemon (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy (and Phione), Darkrai, Shaymin, Arceus).
 
Shine said:
It shares a defense tier with Spiritomb. It has only 2 weaknesses while still having 2 resists and an immunity. You're shitflinging without doing any homework.

Yes, he is weak to Close Combat-- but he's faster than everything that carries it, AND he carries Psychic to deal with them. Oops.

And let me reiterate: You take Stealth Rock damage every turn you're asleep in his presence, including at the end of the turn in which he sleeps you with his sleep move that has the same accuracy Stone Edge has.

There really isn't anything to discuss, here. Go home, everybody. What will it take to convince you? Do I have to physically go back and show damage calculations for every single attack in the game in every possible scenario to show what a monster Darkrai is? He's even banned in the Battle Tower, where Wobba and Latios are allowed to roam free! Even NINTENDO thinks he's broken.
Click to expand...

He shares a defense tier with Spiritomb...so what? His typing is pretty good...so what? Darkrai's really going to give up better coverage and STAB for Psychic, a mediocre at best attacking type? Lucario isn't OHKO'd by Psychic, and Infernape has shitty defenses in general.

His sleep move has damaged attached to it...so what?

The fact that he's banned in the BT should have nothing to do with this. Again, why would damage calculations prove that he's "overpowered?" If there's anything theorymon has taught us, it's that we're not that good at theorymon. Sure it's great to talk about it, but Wobb and Deoxys-S are sitting in the mid-40s on the ladder. Why is Mew banned but Garchomp isn't? Why is Latios banned while Gengar isn't?

Theorymon told us Draco Meteor wouldn't be too popular, theorymon told us Rhyperior and Electivire would dominate DP, theorymon told us Deoxys-S and Wobb were overcentralizing. Was it right on any of these instances?

The point of all this is that without testing we can't know what will happen. We don't have a good track record with predicting what would happen. Why should we trust ourselves again?

As a last question, if Garchomp was event-only, would he be banned?
 
scorchedsky said:
As a last question, if Garchomp was event-only, would he be banned?
Click to expand...

In Battle Tower by Nintendo? Yes. In OU? No. OU isn't determined by what Nintendo thinks. I don't get what this comment means at all. I was responding to a comment about how Darkrai was so awesome that Nintendo banned him in Battle Tower.
 
tgva8889 said:
In Battle Tower by Nintendo? Yes. In OU? No. OU isn't determined by what Nintendo thinks. I don't get what this comment means at all. I was responding to a comment about how Darkrai was so awesome that Nintendo banned him in Battle Tower.
Click to expand...

What I meant by that comment is that Darkrai is being treated differently than other OUs, because of his event or legendary status. It seems to me that Garchomp is a more dominant force/dangerous pokemon than Darkrai is, yet he remains unbanned. I feel that the community really easily bans pokemon who are legendaries, yet doesn't want to ban non-legendaries, and that this goes against our concern of having the greatest number of pokemon in the top 95% of all uses.
 
Ideally we would, and on a test server so no one would have to worry about their rankings. Maybe Kyogre+Arceus+Dialga autobanned based on stats from the Uber ladder.
 
We have extended game clause for that! And then just make a rule that the top 2 pokemon in a month are banned, until some arbitrary limit (like top 10 pokemon can only make up a certain cumulative %age of uses).
 
Do I really come off not as having read the thread?

Seriously? Darkrai isn't banned because he's overcentralizing. He's banned because we think he will be. No non-legendary pokemon has EVER been banned without testing, or without something completely unprecedented (Shadow Tag?).

However, Darkrai, Mew, Manaphy, and even the Lati twins haven't had a sufficient testing period. Why don't we ban Garchomp? I'm sure the amount of pokemon in OU would increase, in fact here are three pages of theorymon to prove it! Except that we don't know what will happen if we ban Garchomp. Just like we don't know what will happen if we unban Darkrai.
 
scorchedsky said:
Do I really come off not as having read the thread?

Seriously? Darkrai isn't banned because he's overcentralizing. He's banned because we think he will be. No non-legendary pokemon has EVER been banned without testing, or without something completely unprecedented (Shadow Tag?).

However, Darkrai, Mew, Manaphy, and even the Lati twins haven't had a sufficient testing period. Why don't we ban Garchomp? I'm sure the amount of pokemon in OU would increase, in fact here are three pages of theorymon to prove it! Except that we don't know what will happen if we ban Garchomp. Just like we don't know what will happen if we unban Darkrai.
Click to expand...
While I think I see the point you're trying to make, you're doing it in an incredibly Strawman way. We've already had the two billion discussions whether or not to ban Garchomp. Deal with it. Taking the "original" position of "You banned X without a legitimate reason, so why haven't you banned Y when you have Z legitimate reasons to do so" makes you look ignorant.


The reason why Darkrai was banned is simple. It's not that he's a better version of Gengar, who's long since been one of the deadliest and most unpredictable Pokémon in the game. It's not that he gets a unique move which breaks a standard Clause by simply using it in a 2v2 match. It's not that his ability turns the most crippling status in the game into RBY Agility Critical Wrap. It's not that he's faster than any other sleeper in the game.

Darkrai was banned because the people in charge looked at him and said, "No." They used proper intuition and common sense to objectively look at all the shit he gets and say, "This thing makes Mewtwo shit his pants." Mewtwo was the first Uber. He was the only Uber in non-emulated play. It's not a bad idea that we should compare anything considered bannable to him.



I'm going to go right on ahead and try to ignore the fact that you suggested to unban Mewtwo.


What will happen to Garchomp will happen to Garchomp. If you're so angry about him, either start using him, start figuring out ways around him, or start using his expectancy to abuse open spots on the enemy team. It's not like you don't have Wobbuffet there to set up your Bellyzard or even to kill said Chomps. That's not the discussion. Knowingly taking an illogical side in this discussion to try to prove your point isn't the way to do things.


You've never played a competitive game in your life, have you? People are going to abuse what's good no matter if it's Garchomp, Gengar, or Tyranitar. Try to tell the Marvel players that they should ban Magneto because he's "overcentralizing." See where that gets you. At least in Pokémon you have the UU tier to which you can go if you want to avoid everybody's favorite Landshark.


Do you HONESTLY think Darkrai, who already wrecks house in Ubers, won't be ridiculously broken in OU?
 
I honestly think Darkrai would not be ridiculously broken in OU, yes. I honestly think that Garchomp is not ridiculously broken in OU. What the hell does broken even mean in this case? God forbid I change your precious OU tier a tiny bit by letting in a pokemon that scares Mewtwo. Who cares what it does to Mewtwo? Oh no, Gliscor makes Heracross shit his pants!

The people in charge looked at Darkrai and made a decision. That's exactly what I'm arguing against. Why should the people in charge be able to make that decision? What track record do they have of making genius banning/unbanning decisions? They might be excellent players, excellent at theorymon, but none of that matters if there's no results.

If Darkrai's so broken, go prove it, use him in OU and wreck house. Oh wait, you can't, because he's autobanned. I don't have to prove how good Garchomp is because the community does it for me through thousands of games played per month. You say that people abuse what's good no matter what it is, but they can't abuse Darkrai because he's "too good?" What kind of logic is that? Where is the line drawn? Gengar isn't "too good" but Darkrai is? Tyranitar's not "too good?" Because the people in charge haven't looked at them and said "no?"

Maybe my problem is just inconsistency, then. What are the official rules for banning something to Ubers? Did Obi's "what is uber?" thread just vanish, or was there actually a legitimate conclusion? Seriously, if "the people in charge" can ban Darkrai because they said "no," then is that the only way something is ever banned? Because if that's the case, then whatever I say doesn't matter, but the administration really should come out and say that's how it works.

I will come out and HONESTLY say that I think if Darkrai is introduced to the OU tier, the amount of pokemon who make up the top 95% of usages will be a greater number, and there will be a smaller percentage of uses in the top-10 (meaning that each pokemon the top-10 will have fewer usages). Will Darkrai be a top-10 OU? Probably. Will he have a higher usage % than any pokemon by a larger margin than Garchomp has? I don't think so.
 
You seem to have this whole anti-establishment chip on your shoulder about tier decisions on Smogon. Don't. These people know what they're doing.

Your point isn't that Darkrai should be OU. What you really want is for all Ubers should be tested to determine how broken they are in OU. However, instead of performing a lengthy and probably controversial testing phase various users here have given you arguments comparing Darkrai to one of the most used and powerful pokemon in OU and provided evidence as to it's better in almost every single way. It's by no means strictly better, but it is to all intents and purposes better at Gengar's role than Gengar is. Performing a test would therefore be a waste of time, as the results are fairly predictable - Gengar usage would decline, Darkrai usage would force players to use otherwise underused niche pokemon and moves in an effort to combat it, and inevitably it would be banned again.

Ubers exists for a reason, not because someone decided to follow the "legendary pokemon" rule that Nintendo laid out but because Game Freak have created a select group of pokemon that are simply more powerful than the vast majority of all other pokemon, and many of these happen to be legendary pokemon. Darkrai isn't banned because the big bosses are out to get you.
 
scorchedsky said:
... Darkrai's really going to give up better coverage and STAB for Psychic, a mediocre at best attacking type? Lucario isn't OHKO'd by Psychic, and Infernape has shitty defenses in general.

His sleep move has damaged attached to it...so what?..
Click to expand...

Lucario doesn't exactly enjoy switching into Dark Void, or Focus Punch. With a neutral nature and no attack EVs on Darkrai, 4 Def Lucario will be OHKOed about 60% of the time. Modest Psychic will always 2HKO the same Lucario, unless he carries Leftovers, and there is still a great chance of 2HKOing. Timid has a three in four chance of a 2HKO, but Darkrai won't need to run full speed in OU. If you put Life Orb/Expert Belt on Darkrai, good luck surviving the onslaught.

In the mean time, a -SpDef nature Darkrai has about the same one in four chance of being OHKOed by a Modest Choice Specs Lucario Vaccum Wave.

One of the better sets in OU for Darkrai, if you wanted an all out sweeper would be Dark Void/Dark Pulse/Psychic/Focus Punch. Spiritomb becomes the best switch in, but anything that could actually hurt Darkrai won't survive. Calm Mind has the potential be the the most deadly, but you'll lose coverage.
That said, once sleep clause is active, more Pokemon can come in, especially if Darkrai lacks Calm Mind to stat-up.

He wouldn't break OU as much as many of the other ubers, but if you want as many Pokemon to be viable in OU as possible, Darkrai doesn't make sense.
 
I'm not saying this as an anti-establishment rant, nor do I think the Smogon admins are out to get me. What I would like, then, is evidence that these people really do know what they're doing when it comes to banning pokemon based on theorymon. I respect their knowledge and dedication, but there has been no real evidence that banning something without testing is really beneficial.

This is a problem. What are the criteria a pokemon must satisfy before it is banned to ubers without testing? These should be known and should not be too complicated, otherwise it seems to come down to a judgment call. Let me ask you this: which is the most "broken," out of Manaphy, Darkrai, or Garchomp? If it's Darkrai, with Manaphy second and Garchomp third, what criteria do we use? How is the line drawn?

This is just an inquiry for more information about the actual banning based on theory process. If it's legitimate it should be able to be applied to at least a good number of pokemon, even those in the OU tier currently. My only complaint is that from the evidence I've seen, there is no consistent set of criteria that ban a pokemon when it has never been seen in standard play. Are there any? If so, what are they, and if not, why not? That's all I'd like to know at this point.


Edit: Lucario was just thrown in as a mention of Close Combat users who aren't OHKO'd by Psychic. If you've already had someone eat Sleep for you, then Togekiss can come in on that sweeper set and take <50% from anything, and threaten an 82-97 Aura Sphere on -SpDef Darkrai...not saying it's a definitive counter, but it works fairly well (You need Modest and a Life Orb for a shot at a 2HKO with Dark Pulse).
 
Just posting that Darkrai has practically the same defenses as Crobat. Actually, Darkrai's base stats are basically that of a slightly slower Crobat with 135 SpA stat.
 
What the fuck is this about Garchomp being more broken than Darkrai?! Garchomp is 1hkoed by so much shit that it's ridiculous. Ice is already a great attacking type and guess who's 4x weak to it.... Where is Darkrai's
4x weakness?
 
I'm not saying either is more broken or better or cheaper or annoying or unfair. I'm saying that the same criteria used to ban Darkrai were not used on any non-legendaries, and that doesn't make any sense. And, these criteria used to ban Darkrai are not clear cut and definitive. That is to say that there's not a list where Darkrai fits everything, the Ubers fit everything, but no pokemon in OU fits every criteria.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
Garchomp is by far more -lucky-, not broken or better.
Click to expand...

I agree. Darkrai and Garchomp are pretty similar in the fact that most teams cant beat it even though they will know exactly what moves are coming every time.

But other than that, they have essentially nothing in common so why would people even try to compare them?

scorchedsky said:
I'm not saying either is more broken or better or cheaper or annoying or unfair. I'm saying that the same criteria used to ban Darkrai were not used on any non-legendaries, and that doesn't make any sense. And, these criteria used to ban Darkrai are not clear cut and definitive. That is to say that there's not a list where Darkrai fits everything, the Ubers fit everything, but no pokemon in OU fits every criteria.
Click to expand...

"Legendary" status means nothing in terms of competitive battling, which is what Smogon is about. Can you please stop using that word like it means anything on these forums

What other "criteria" do you need to ban something with the insane stats, movepool, ability and typing that Darkrai has? Play any intelligent person who is using a Darkrai against your Ubers or OU team and you would understand (although I doubt it). I want to say that why Darkrai is Uber is a no-brainer but by the fact that people are taking this topic seriously, I'm starting to doubt the accuracy of that term.
 
I can get what he's saying. If Darkrai was the third evo in a chain, a normal Pokemon, we probably would have tested it first. We're not used to looking at a non-legend and sending it straight to Ubers. And I know you say Smogon makes no distinction, but believe me, it subconciously does. Can you point me to a single post where someone has argued that one of the Latis deserves banning but not the other? They're different Pokemon, and yet because we see them as a pair we think we can't split them. The same sort of thing happens when something gets legendary status. Do you remember how everyone was freaking about about Garchomp breaking OU? If he was legendary, he just might have been autobanned. He would have at least been tested.
 
While I don't really think Darkrai can ever be in OU, I do agree that his legendary status may have lead to such a premature ban with no testing. I find it interesting how immediately Darkrai was placed in Ubers and Garchomp into OU.

Note that I am not trying to compare the two based on which is better or more broken or something, but I do find it interesting to wonder - If Darkrai had been the 3 evolution 600 bst special pokemon of DP, and Garchomp had been a legendary similar to Darkrai, would things have ended up the same way. I know smogon does not care about legendary status or anything, but like Sanjay120 said, it seems almost like a subconcious thing.

I find it interesting to consider if Latios and Latias had just been regular non-legendary pokemon and Soul Dew did not exist, would they have ever been banned, or would the community have just put up with them like they do with Garchomp, even if they were not really fit for the metagame, as some people argue is the case with Garchomp, because of our reluctancy to move up non-legendary pokemon.

So yeah, not really about Darkrai too much, lol, but anyway, basically I agree that pretty much anything remotely non-obvious should tested
 
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