Tournament DCL III Format Discussion

People complaining about how 1 vgc slot leaves people stranded on a island and they want to add another tier off DPP/ADV which now captains must splurge budget on both VGC + whatever new gen gets added just adds to the problem everyone has been complaining about seems like a weird add imo.
 
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My personal preference would be (askers???) another USUM or SWSH slot. However, I find it unlikely we’ll ever get people to agree on this, it will be a debate between which, and then people will inevitably say “why not a second ORAS?” or something else. So while it’s my preference, I feel like it’s gonna end up a non-starter.


I do, however, think 4 SV is bad. Beyond what Olivia said (something I absolutely agree with and very much disagree with Hacker on), I think draft team tours have always felt like a celebration of our history as a community. ORAS is a 10+ year old game but it’s where draft started so it always gets its slot. All of these tiers are tiers that were played as current gens, by many of the people who will be participating in this tour.

SV is current gen, and so I understand with that being the case, it’s why people support a 4th SV slot. However, SV already has the most slots as is, it doesn’t need half of them—especially when we already have the seasonals and circuit for high level SV play.

In line with both of these points (team tours being in part a celebration of past current gens and also the need for something distinct here as a separate tier), I would like to renominate SWSH NatDex as the 8th slot from my previous argument last year.

So, why?
1) SWSH NatDex is what people actually played in during all of current gen when it came to leagues, as well as many tours (although LDI onwards, there was a lot more Galar Dex). In terms of drafts’ history, it deserves representation perhaps more than any other currently unrepresented tier (if you buy the argument about team tours being about celebrating said history).
2) *A lot* of the playerbase can already play it at a high level. Anyone that was around for SWSH current gen played this format, it isn’t alien to people like DPP and ADV are (even though I do think these are good tiers and I admire what their communities have done for them a lot!), so there wouldn’t be a need to get people that main it.
3) SWSH NatDex has a lot of elements reminiscent of USUM in it, as well as of course SWSH Galar Dex, whilst being identifiably different from both of them. It strikes somewhat of a middle ground as a tier between a second USUM and a second Galar Dex slot, since I imagine people wouldn’t wanna pick between either.
4) this gives NatDex as a concept representation in DCL without A) adding in even more SV B) adding in a tier that many top players dislike (SV NatDex) for being way too fake (a problem that was not really shared with SWSH NatDex).

Hacker has already raised the point about the second SWSH slot being disliked from DCL 1. However, I do want to put it out there, that SWSH has seen truly massive meta development since current gen ended. The tier is totally different now, and the way we perceive the tier as a community has totally changed. I don’t see the SWSH hate I used to see anymore, and I honestly think seeing the meta in SWSH change and grow has been my favorite part of these past couple team tours as a spectator.

I highlight this because I don’t want a criticism of a SWSH NatDex slot to be “it’s just more SWSH and we already tried that and people didn’t like it.” Not only is SWSH itself a good tier, but it’s a markedly different tier than it was in DCL 1. Additionally, SWSH NatDex is its own distinct tier, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t share commonalities with SWSH—I just think those commonalities are cool, and this is a chance to revive a good metagame we haven’t had in a major team tour since SWSH current gen ended.

Oh and finally, since this got debated a bunch last time—cut moves should not be allowed in SWSH NatDex. Whether or not you THINK they should be banned—it’s how the tier was played as a current gen and there’s really no reason to change it on that front. I understand that Smogon has always interpreted NatDex differently from draft (Z moves allowed, cut moves allowed) but, even as this is a Smogon organized event, it is also one of the two premier team tours for the draft community, largely played by draft players, and I think the interpretation of draft players should take precedence in this context over that of the people who run the NatDex ladders.

Anyways free SWSH NatDex.
 
To add on, I don’t want 4 SV slots, I do find the framing that “old gen players are disenfranchised if they are not top 8” is not an argument I find myself vibing with. We should strive for this to be competitive and have, or strive to have alternative options for lower levels of competition. I just think Scarlet and Violet is a lot more work to build in and the number of slots of the metagame adds on to player burnout, do others agree?
 
If it would be a 4th SV as the picked format, would we do 5 SV drafts? Or are we forcing teams to slot all their SV teams every week?

5 SV drafts seems a little much if you ask me, but completely removing the bench seems pretty bad too if done for a full season.
 
As the week has gone on, I think it is safe to say that there is no clear "best solution", there is negative connotations with every decision, whether that be the isolation of players of a specific tier on a team, the lack of a clear solution of a tier to double up on for the whole season or some people's general distaste for 4SV. Initially I thought that 4 SV would be fine, nothing special but is the least horrible solution. However, what was mentioned previously by Olivia is true, it does lead to a lot of players that don't play SV to end up either undrafted or hardly playing because they are top 8 of their tier. Therefore, you're kind of stuck with players of an older generation that do not really have a natural place if they are not among the top 8 signups of a generation.

This was what brought me back to the question of could the flex spot be refined, whilst still maintaining VGC in the event. This seems like a slippery slope, as the preferred route of flex seems to be the DPL approach of each team picking one tier. The format of flex in one slot last year had its doubters due to the preconceived doubled tier every week across the board, introducing an element of RNG that could not be controlled in any circumstance. It did lead to teams needing to draft multiple players of a tier though, which reduces the isolation problem previously mentioned.

I do believe that I have found the solution to refine flex in a way that takes inspiration from the DPL style whilst also keeping the VGC slot intact that it well and truly deserves. How did I do it? Well I actually didn't, shoutouts to The Diabolic Gift , Bowas and Princess Autumn for dealing with my antics on this and actually being capable of statistical modelling (or at least trying to make it work in Autumn's case). Below are two examples of how the system might work

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1746278732400.png


Let me explain what madness is going on here. In essence, the idea is to allow for the flex slot be picked by one team every week, essentially leading to teams having "home" (where they get to pick the 8th tier) and "away" (where the opposing team would pick the 8th slot) fixtures in the regular season. This system allows for each team to pick the 8th tier 3 times in a season, with one week needing to be a neutral week to allow for this to be possible. This neutral week would consist of 4 SV as it is the safest "middleground" as previously mentioned. For these examples, I asked for week 7 to be the neutral week but this does not have to be the case. Week 7 was the fairest neutral week to ensure that no team would be able to pick the 8th tier for both their week 6 and 7 series (Trust us on the math here, we tried) as the ability to pick the tier twice this late into the season may be slightly too unfair for the other teams. If people are not as upset about this possible statistical advantage, this neutral week can be moved to week 1 (or week 4 if people would prefer it to be right after mids).

Essentially, this system would allow for the flex slot to be kept, incorporate the tier selection system that is liked in other events for the tactical elements it brings, and also be as fair as possible whilst maintaining 8 slots. If this system was to succeed, it would also ideally prevent the need to have this exact same discussion in the forum again next year if in the hypothetical circumstance that whatever is chosen ends up not working as planned in the event and we're circling back to this exact same debate next year.

If people have any questions on this system, please reach out to me either on here or on Discord, but I am open to feedback on this system which I feel might be the "best of all circumstances", or at the very least is the best that I can think of.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk!!!!
 
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"If your not a top 8 old gen player you won't get picked" isn't this tournement supposed to be for the best of the best? Why does this matter? Also if ur a minbid old gen player and u get slotted into eye aye ipro in usum or gypsy king king l5 in oras what does it really matter.. let's be so fr. Even if an old gen did exist in the flex wouldn't it be just 2 extra weeks of playing it anyways? How is this a valid point at all. Dfl also exists for this specific reason to foster new talent we do need need dcl to accommodate for people who aren't "top 8 old gen players"
 
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As the week has gone on, I think it is safe to say that there is no clear "best solution", there is negative connotations with every decision, whether that be the isolation of players of a specific tier on a team, the lack of a clear solution of a tier to double up on for the whole season or some people's general distaste for 4SV. Initially I thought that 4 SV would be fine, nothing special but is the least horrible solution. However, what was mentioned previously by Olivia is true, it does lead to a lot of players that don't play SV to end up either undrafted or hardly playing because they are top 8 of their tier. Therefore, you're kind of stuck with players of an older generation that do not really have a natural place if they are not among the top 8 signups of a generation.

This was what brought me back to the question of could the flex spot be refined, whilst still maintaining VGC in the event. This seems like a slippery slope, as the preferred route of flex seems to be the DPL approach of each team picking one tier. The format of flex in one slot last year had its doubters due to the preconceived doubled tier every week across the board, introducing an element of RNG that could not be controlled in any circumstance. It did lead to teams needing to draft multiple players of a tier though, which reduces the isolation problem previously mentioned.

I do believe that I have found the solution to refine flex in a way that takes inspiration from the DPL style whilst also keeping the VGC slot intact that it well and truly deserves. How did I do it? Well I actually didn't, shoutouts to The Diabolic Gift , Bowas and Princess Autumn for dealing with my antics on this and actually being capable of statistical modelling (or at least trying to make it work in Autumn's case). Below are two examples of how the system might work

View attachment 737110

View attachment 737111

Let me explain what madness is going on here. In essence, the idea is to allow for the flex slot be picked by one team every week, essentially leading to teams having "home" (where they get to pick the 8th tier) and "away" (where the opposing team would pick the 8th slot) fixtures in the regular season. This system allows for each team to pick the 8th tier 3 times in a season, with one week needing to be a neutral week to allow for this to be possible. This neutral week would consist of 4 SV as it is the safest "middleground" as previously mentioned. For these examples, I asked for week 7 to be the neutral week but this does not have to be the case. Week 7 was the fairest neutral week to ensure that no team would be able to pick the 8th tier for both their week 6 and 7 series (Trust us on the math here, we tried) as the ability to pick the tier twice this late into the season may be slightly too unfair for the other teams. If people are not as upset about this possible statistical advantage, this neutral week can be moved to week 1 (or week 4 if people would prefer it to be right after mids).

Essentially, this system would allow for the flex slot to be kept, incorporate the tier selection system that is liked in other events for the tactical elements it brings, and also be as fair as possible whilst maintaining 8 slots. If this system was to succeed, it would also ideally prevent the need to have this exact same discussion in the forum again next year if in the hypothetical circumstance that whatever is chosen ends up not working as planned in the event and we're circling back to this exact same debate next year.

If people have any questions on this system, please reach out to me either on here or on Discord, but I am open to feedback on this system which I feel might be the "best of all circumstances", or at the very least is the best that I can think of.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk!!!!
I do sort of feel like this method still has a similar level of randomness to it - i.e. whether youre picking or not vs harder/easier teams, when in the season you're picking, etc. While I think this is an improvement I think that the following method gives teams a bit more agency:

Team A bans one tier
Team B bans two tiers
Team A bans one tier
One tier remains.

While I am not necessarily advocating for this over other options such as double SV, double Swsh, new format, etc, I do think this is the best way to do the flex slot that gives teams more agency over the tiers they do/do not play.

We could even use TJs method to determine who picks when, and ensure that each team gets to pick three times in each position.
 
I do sort of feel like this method still has a similar level of randomness to it - i.e. whether youre picking or not vs harder/easier teams, when in the season you're picking, etc. While I think this is an improvement I think that the following method gives teams a bit more agency:

Team A bans one tier
Team B bans two tiers
Team A bans one tier
One tier remains.

While I am not necessarily advocating for this over other options such as double SV, double Swsh, new format, etc, I do think this is the best way to do the flex slot that gives teams more agency over the tiers they do/do not play.

We could even use TJs method to determine who picks when, and ensure that each team gets to pick three times in each position.
This is my favorite proposal for the 8th slot so far. I feel like this has the best of all worlds while minimizing the drawbacks:

-Whoever gets to ban a tier first is a much, much, much smaller advantage than straight up picking the 8th tier as outlined in TJ’s proposal.
-There’s no longer the scenario in old flex where, for example, a week is static ORAS and your opponents are undefeated there with really strong players. I believe this was the main issue people had with flex, and the only way it can happen now is if your opponent is overwhelmingly favored in 3 tiers. And if that’s true, then they deserve it lol.
-Having the potential 2nd slot for all the oldgens + VGC makes having 3 drafts in each tier justifiable to increase variety, and since a 4th SV game can easily be banned, there’s no need to increase to 5 drafts.
-I thought it would’ve been cool to see a new format like ADV or DPP, but the timing probably isn’t right for that.

All in all, I really don’t know what the issues with a pick/ban route could be. There’s still some discussion on when the neutral week happens and what tier it should be, but week 7 locked SV feels pretty reasonable to me.
 
"If your not a top 8 old gen player you won't get picked" isn't this tournement supposed to be for the best of the best? Why does this matter? Also if ur a minbid old gen player and u get slotted into eye aye ipro in usum or gypsy king king l5 in oras what does it really matter.. let's be so fr. Even if an old gen did exist in the flex wouldn't it be just 2 extra weeks of playing it anyways? How is this a valid point at all. Dfl also exists for this specific reason to foster new talent we do need need dcl to accommodate for people who aren't "top 8 old gen players"
I don’t want to get into whether it’s right or wrong, but I think the real question is what’s better for the tournament. Is it better to have the 9th to 16th best USUM players competing, or the 33rd to 40th best SV players, considering there would be 4 SV slots?
 
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