Well, it's Rediamond again with another team (why else would I have a thread in this forum?). I kind of realized how terrible my battling skills were after ST7, and several other really bad tournament defeats. I have never been able to ladder to any significance, and am really bad in general.
However, I did win one tournament match out of the half-dozen or so I've played. That was mostly due to a misplay, but it got me thinking about a new I could use: stall with a few quirks to adapt to the metagame. I considered a few: Stallbreak Lickilicky (dismissed as too slow), anti-bulky water Lapras (worked, but not worth a team slot), and several other choices before eventually giving up altogether and virtually quitting competitive battling.
I was playing around with a gimmick one day, when I realized that the team was actually good. The premise is too use a partial baton pass chain with the ultimate goal of getting a nearly unstoppable subseeder set up that could survive almost anything. So, without fruther delay, here it is, Team Defensive Baton Pass:
Team Constuction, if you care:
The team started with Venusaur and Vaporeon, as it was originally a gimic team based off of a Nuzlocke run. This was a stall-ish team, so I wanted my two favorite hazard starters/leads: Forretress and Skarmory. After this, I needed a spinblocker, so Rotom-A was added, as it is honestly the only viable defensive spin-blocker in OU. I had a fire problem, so I added Torment Tran to add chance to set up.
In detail:
Foretress @Leftovers
Impish
252HP/252Def/4SpDef
-Toxic Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Payback
-Earthquake
Why Foretress: Why not? I needed Toxic Spikes support to properly stall, and I wanted a defensive user, so one of the two mainstay Pokemon on my teams was picked for the role. Toxic Spikes are needed to outstall Pokemon with Skarmory, Vaporeon, and Venusaur, and are therefore required. Rapid Spin is also appreciated, as I need to stall to the fullest extent, and probably Baton Pass more than once. Payback is used to nail those Pesky Rotom-A on the switch for good damage, and also abuses Foretresses low speed as I'm sure you're all aware. Earthquake is good for killing Heatran and Infernape switches in late game, which are normally very predictable.
For some more detailed analysis on why I needed Foretress: Foretress can take many hits for rather substantial periods of time, even without recovery. Foretress also wins against everything but taunt leads, Dragonite, and Fire-types by setting up Toxic Spikes. How the aforementioned Pokemon are taken care of will be dealt with at a later time. However, I would prefer not to sack Foretress in early game, as it can still be useful late game, for spinning and sacking reasons. Overall, Foretress is honestly one of the five mainstay Pokemon in stall for a very good reason.
Taunt leads are dealt with by switching to a specific counter. In case of Azelf, I play a very risky game. I take the taunt, and allow Stealth Rocks to be set up without switching out. After this, I switch to Heatran on the predicted Flamethrower. Azelf can do very little to Heatran, and I can proceed to play the game from there, spinning away at a later time. Aerodactyl is played in much the same way, except I switch to Vaporeon on the first turn to Ice Beam/Surf for the kill. It gets rocks up, but I don't have any SR weak Pokemon, so it isn't that big of a deal. For fire types, I generally play mind games with Heatran and Rotom-W, with the goal of taking the Fire Attack with Heatran, and proceeding to take Earth Power/Close Combat with Rotom-W. Most people will not leave in a fire type on Rotom-W, and will switch out, allowing me more time to deal with them once momentum has started.
Umbreon @Leftovers
Careful
252HP/128SpDef/128Spd
-Protect
-Wish
-Mean Look
-Baton Pass
Umreon is needed for the Baton Passing Core, coming in after Torment Tran Torments something. By a combination of Protect, Mean Look, and Wish, Umbreon can avoid substantial damage, heal, and pass Wishes to Vaporeon to heal off of. This is an incredibly useful Pokemon for several reasons. First off, it can fully abuse Foretress' Toxic Spikes by Protecting, Wishing, and just general being a Beast with TormentTrap in play. Even without Torment in play, Umbreon manages to wall like a champ with Protect and Wish, and whittle down the opponent with Poison. It is difficult to OHKO Umbreon, so it can normally keep healing, Baton Passing, Protecting, and generally inducing rage quits. It is just a link in a modified Baton Passing chain, so there isn't that much to say about it. It should be noted that due to its bulk, one mess up or rapid spin on my part will not destroy the hopes of the chain rising again.
Rotom-W @Leftovers:
Impish
252HP/136Def/120SpDef
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow Ball
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
Yet another Pokemon I'm sure that everyone knows about. RestTalk Rotom-W, used to Toxic Stall, and a bit unpredictable to play against. Wash form is used to scare most fire types into switching, as I have a problem against them, and residual damage is always good. Shadow Ball is STAB, and helps against opposing Rotom forms. If I wasn't accuracy paranoid, I might go with Hydro Pump, but as it stands, leaving anything more than needed to the RNG is generally bad.
RestTalk is needed to absorb toxic happy Blissey's move, while stalling it out with Toxic Spikes. Unless it is some obscure Shadow Ball Blissey, it can't win with Toxic Spikes out. It should be noted that the special defense EV's are used to stand up to Starmie, another threat to this team. Between careful prediction and mind games with Vaporeon, I can normally take down Starmie, but I might have to let something get KO'd to do so. Overall, its just a standard wall that I'm sure you're all familiar with.
Optional Changes: Will-O-Wisp and Hydro Pump have been considered to add to the stall feel, but overall Burning conflicts with poison, and so I have not chosen to go with Will-O-Miss (accuracy paranoid). Hydro Pump was discussed earlier.
Heatran @leftovers
Calm
244HP/32SpAtt/12SpDef/220Spd
-Lava Plume
-Torment
-Protect
-Stealth Rock
This is unfair to the opponent. Unless they have two ways of dealing with Heatran, they will be outstalled and killed by Toxic Spikes or Lava Plume. I can sub or Torment on an expected switch, and proceed to kill. The greatest thing about this set, is not its invulnerability, but its support. I run Flamethrower over taunt as a means of dealing with Steel Types, as anything immune to poison must be taken out before the late game.
Torment allows Vaporeon an almost certain free switch-in to something it can handle, which allows it to protect stall to get some Baton Pass action going. Heatran is also appreciated for its great defensive role, with an immunity to TSpikes, and numerous resistances. It also acts as my Stealth Rock user. Finally, it is needed for my mind games I like to play with fire types, being immune to a type that hits half of my team for Super Effective Damage. Also, Stealth Rock is my primary means of hitting levitators, so it is crucial to the team. Overall, TomentTran works very well on its own and in a support role.
Vaporeon @Leftovers
Bold
252HP/4Def/252SpDef
-Aqua Ring
-Baton Pass
-Surf
-Protect
This set is designed to fully abuse Umbreon and TormentTran's support roles, allowing Vaporeon to set up. Protect is used to fully abuse Torment and Toxic Spikes, and also for scouting purposes. Surf is used to damage Lead Aerodactyl and Fire types that could give me trouble. Aqua Ring lets Vaporeon outstall many threats, and also give a serious boost to Venusaur. Special Defense EV's are used to allow Vaporeon to act as a special wall, which I had previously been lacking. There isn't very much to say here, but it stalls on its own, but makes the following unstoppable.
Vaporeon also mantains reasonable offensive power, allowing it to deal with the few bad lead matchups and Fire Types that can plague this team. Vaporeon can also deal with most fast and frail sweepers that can give this team a lot of trouble.
Venusaur @Leftovers
Impish
252HP/128Def/128SpDef
-Substitute
-Leech Seed
-Protect
-HP Ice
Oh, the joys of Venusaur. After possibly obtaining Torment and Aqua Ring Support, Venusaur is free to go to town. Substitute allows Venusaur to guard itself while the heavy duty stalling occurs, and the damage is quickly restored by the variety of healing sources Venusaur has. Leech Seed is the crux of the set, allowing more and more health to flow into Venusaur, allowing more substitutes, more toxic damage, leech seed damage, and more rage quits. Protect is used in conjunction with Leech Seed and Aqua Ring to allow Venusaur to essentially make free substitutes. HP Ice is use for destroying any grass types who try to ruin Venusaur's stalling fun, and 2HKO's most of them. I have considered HP Fire, but Ice's greater coverage convinced me otherwise.
Now, onto the defense: a UU poke in OU? Rater senses are telling me to smite it. I know, I've given rates like that. Here's why Venusaur is simply the best. First, it absorbs Toxic Spikes, acting as a free, unblockable rapid spin. Second, it had quite a bit of natural bulk going for it, unlike many other grass types such as Breloom and Roserade. Third, it is a very epic Pokemon in general, and this team did have its origins in a gimick team. If you believe Shaymin or Celebi to be superior, I will listen to reason, but I like Venusaur as it is.
Closing Comments: The team does play differently from conventional stall or BP. One loss or taunt is not the end of the world. All members are sufficiently bulky to get right back up and hit even harder. It should also be considered that I am not setting up a sweep, only a really drawn out and elaborate stall with SubSeed and Toxic Spikes. Overall, it is a very distinct playstyle.
Also, the team is pretty bad. The one tourney match (ST7) is used this in, I lost badly, although that may have happened anyways.
Rate, hate, or steal if you're an idiot. This is my final Gen 4 team, and I will not start BW for a while, so this is the start of a short hiatus on competitive battling. From the bottom of the ladder, Rediamond is out.
However, I did win one tournament match out of the half-dozen or so I've played. That was mostly due to a misplay, but it got me thinking about a new I could use: stall with a few quirks to adapt to the metagame. I considered a few: Stallbreak Lickilicky (dismissed as too slow), anti-bulky water Lapras (worked, but not worth a team slot), and several other choices before eventually giving up altogether and virtually quitting competitive battling.
I was playing around with a gimmick one day, when I realized that the team was actually good. The premise is too use a partial baton pass chain with the ultimate goal of getting a nearly unstoppable subseeder set up that could survive almost anything. So, without fruther delay, here it is, Team Defensive Baton Pass:
Team Constuction, if you care:
The team started with Venusaur and Vaporeon, as it was originally a gimic team based off of a Nuzlocke run. This was a stall-ish team, so I wanted my two favorite hazard starters/leads: Forretress and Skarmory. After this, I needed a spinblocker, so Rotom-A was added, as it is honestly the only viable defensive spin-blocker in OU. I had a fire problem, so I added Torment Tran to add chance to set up.
In detail:
Foretress @Leftovers
Impish
252HP/252Def/4SpDef
-Toxic Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Payback
-Earthquake
Why Foretress: Why not? I needed Toxic Spikes support to properly stall, and I wanted a defensive user, so one of the two mainstay Pokemon on my teams was picked for the role. Toxic Spikes are needed to outstall Pokemon with Skarmory, Vaporeon, and Venusaur, and are therefore required. Rapid Spin is also appreciated, as I need to stall to the fullest extent, and probably Baton Pass more than once. Payback is used to nail those Pesky Rotom-A on the switch for good damage, and also abuses Foretresses low speed as I'm sure you're all aware. Earthquake is good for killing Heatran and Infernape switches in late game, which are normally very predictable.
For some more detailed analysis on why I needed Foretress: Foretress can take many hits for rather substantial periods of time, even without recovery. Foretress also wins against everything but taunt leads, Dragonite, and Fire-types by setting up Toxic Spikes. How the aforementioned Pokemon are taken care of will be dealt with at a later time. However, I would prefer not to sack Foretress in early game, as it can still be useful late game, for spinning and sacking reasons. Overall, Foretress is honestly one of the five mainstay Pokemon in stall for a very good reason.
Taunt leads are dealt with by switching to a specific counter. In case of Azelf, I play a very risky game. I take the taunt, and allow Stealth Rocks to be set up without switching out. After this, I switch to Heatran on the predicted Flamethrower. Azelf can do very little to Heatran, and I can proceed to play the game from there, spinning away at a later time. Aerodactyl is played in much the same way, except I switch to Vaporeon on the first turn to Ice Beam/Surf for the kill. It gets rocks up, but I don't have any SR weak Pokemon, so it isn't that big of a deal. For fire types, I generally play mind games with Heatran and Rotom-W, with the goal of taking the Fire Attack with Heatran, and proceeding to take Earth Power/Close Combat with Rotom-W. Most people will not leave in a fire type on Rotom-W, and will switch out, allowing me more time to deal with them once momentum has started.
Umbreon @Leftovers
Careful
252HP/128SpDef/128Spd
-Protect
-Wish
-Mean Look
-Baton Pass
Umreon is needed for the Baton Passing Core, coming in after Torment Tran Torments something. By a combination of Protect, Mean Look, and Wish, Umbreon can avoid substantial damage, heal, and pass Wishes to Vaporeon to heal off of. This is an incredibly useful Pokemon for several reasons. First off, it can fully abuse Foretress' Toxic Spikes by Protecting, Wishing, and just general being a Beast with TormentTrap in play. Even without Torment in play, Umbreon manages to wall like a champ with Protect and Wish, and whittle down the opponent with Poison. It is difficult to OHKO Umbreon, so it can normally keep healing, Baton Passing, Protecting, and generally inducing rage quits. It is just a link in a modified Baton Passing chain, so there isn't that much to say about it. It should be noted that due to its bulk, one mess up or rapid spin on my part will not destroy the hopes of the chain rising again.
Rotom-W @Leftovers:
Impish
252HP/136Def/120SpDef
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow Ball
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
Yet another Pokemon I'm sure that everyone knows about. RestTalk Rotom-W, used to Toxic Stall, and a bit unpredictable to play against. Wash form is used to scare most fire types into switching, as I have a problem against them, and residual damage is always good. Shadow Ball is STAB, and helps against opposing Rotom forms. If I wasn't accuracy paranoid, I might go with Hydro Pump, but as it stands, leaving anything more than needed to the RNG is generally bad.
RestTalk is needed to absorb toxic happy Blissey's move, while stalling it out with Toxic Spikes. Unless it is some obscure Shadow Ball Blissey, it can't win with Toxic Spikes out. It should be noted that the special defense EV's are used to stand up to Starmie, another threat to this team. Between careful prediction and mind games with Vaporeon, I can normally take down Starmie, but I might have to let something get KO'd to do so. Overall, its just a standard wall that I'm sure you're all familiar with.
Optional Changes: Will-O-Wisp and Hydro Pump have been considered to add to the stall feel, but overall Burning conflicts with poison, and so I have not chosen to go with Will-O-Miss (accuracy paranoid). Hydro Pump was discussed earlier.
Heatran @leftovers
Calm
244HP/32SpAtt/12SpDef/220Spd
-Lava Plume
-Torment
-Protect
-Stealth Rock
This is unfair to the opponent. Unless they have two ways of dealing with Heatran, they will be outstalled and killed by Toxic Spikes or Lava Plume. I can sub or Torment on an expected switch, and proceed to kill. The greatest thing about this set, is not its invulnerability, but its support. I run Flamethrower over taunt as a means of dealing with Steel Types, as anything immune to poison must be taken out before the late game.
Torment allows Vaporeon an almost certain free switch-in to something it can handle, which allows it to protect stall to get some Baton Pass action going. Heatran is also appreciated for its great defensive role, with an immunity to TSpikes, and numerous resistances. It also acts as my Stealth Rock user. Finally, it is needed for my mind games I like to play with fire types, being immune to a type that hits half of my team for Super Effective Damage. Also, Stealth Rock is my primary means of hitting levitators, so it is crucial to the team. Overall, TomentTran works very well on its own and in a support role.
Vaporeon @Leftovers
Bold
252HP/4Def/252SpDef
-Aqua Ring
-Baton Pass
-Surf
-Protect
This set is designed to fully abuse Umbreon and TormentTran's support roles, allowing Vaporeon to set up. Protect is used to fully abuse Torment and Toxic Spikes, and also for scouting purposes. Surf is used to damage Lead Aerodactyl and Fire types that could give me trouble. Aqua Ring lets Vaporeon outstall many threats, and also give a serious boost to Venusaur. Special Defense EV's are used to allow Vaporeon to act as a special wall, which I had previously been lacking. There isn't very much to say here, but it stalls on its own, but makes the following unstoppable.
Vaporeon also mantains reasonable offensive power, allowing it to deal with the few bad lead matchups and Fire Types that can plague this team. Vaporeon can also deal with most fast and frail sweepers that can give this team a lot of trouble.
Venusaur @Leftovers
Impish
252HP/128Def/128SpDef
-Substitute
-Leech Seed
-Protect
-HP Ice
Oh, the joys of Venusaur. After possibly obtaining Torment and Aqua Ring Support, Venusaur is free to go to town. Substitute allows Venusaur to guard itself while the heavy duty stalling occurs, and the damage is quickly restored by the variety of healing sources Venusaur has. Leech Seed is the crux of the set, allowing more and more health to flow into Venusaur, allowing more substitutes, more toxic damage, leech seed damage, and more rage quits. Protect is used in conjunction with Leech Seed and Aqua Ring to allow Venusaur to essentially make free substitutes. HP Ice is use for destroying any grass types who try to ruin Venusaur's stalling fun, and 2HKO's most of them. I have considered HP Fire, but Ice's greater coverage convinced me otherwise.
Now, onto the defense: a UU poke in OU? Rater senses are telling me to smite it. I know, I've given rates like that. Here's why Venusaur is simply the best. First, it absorbs Toxic Spikes, acting as a free, unblockable rapid spin. Second, it had quite a bit of natural bulk going for it, unlike many other grass types such as Breloom and Roserade. Third, it is a very epic Pokemon in general, and this team did have its origins in a gimick team. If you believe Shaymin or Celebi to be superior, I will listen to reason, but I like Venusaur as it is.
Closing Comments: The team does play differently from conventional stall or BP. One loss or taunt is not the end of the world. All members are sufficiently bulky to get right back up and hit even harder. It should also be considered that I am not setting up a sweep, only a really drawn out and elaborate stall with SubSeed and Toxic Spikes. Overall, it is a very distinct playstyle.
Also, the team is pretty bad. The one tourney match (ST7) is used this in, I lost badly, although that may have happened anyways.
Rate, hate, or steal if you're an idiot. This is my final Gen 4 team, and I will not start BW for a while, so this is the start of a short hiatus on competitive battling. From the bottom of the ladder, Rediamond is out.
