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Defining the NU Tier

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OK, let's try this one more time.

Of course we should act like the current UU tier does not exist, at least in terms of making tiers dependent on it. Why? Because it isn't that the BL / UU tier "thing" might happen, it will happen.

Therefore, making a tournament that tests NU based off the current tier is akin to making a tournament with arbitrary tiers. It holds no meaning besides you guys having fun. OK, you guys want to have fun. Great.

I am just making sure that EVERYONE realizes that whatever results from this tournament means nothing from a competitive stand point. I am allowed to make that disclaimer.

I also stand by my statement. You two are advertising. If someone from serebii linked to a tournament on serebii, it would be advertising. Your implication that linking to a site with tournament sign ups AFTER BEING REJECTED HERE ON SMOGON not being advertising is a joke, and a blatant disrespecting action towards the tournament moderators here.

What you are saying is "OK, you didn't allow us to run our tournament. But now we're going to advertise our site on your site anyway."

Nice try.

I was not rude for calling you out for attempting to cleverly bypass our tournament system.

EDIT: Also, I LOVE Cynthia how you call out Great Sage for calling people idiots, but then ignore what caused that. How convenient. Great Sage was not flaming anyone. Skiddle implied I was threatening someone (obviously no threat there) and that other guy made the hilarious implication that I was jealous. Clearly they were both derailing this thread with their off topic remarks, and Great Sage was just doing his job as a moderator to stop them.

Perhaps you should not tell Great Sage, a hardworking, contributing member of this site, how to do his job and perhaps you should not mini mod.
 
Aldaron said:
OK, let's try this one more time.

Of course we should act like the current UU tier does not exist, at least in terms of making tiers dependent on it. Why? Because it isn't that the BL / UU tier "thing" might happen, it will happen.

Therefore, making a tournament that tests NU based off the current tier is akin to making a tournament with arbitrary tiers. It holds no meaning besides you guys fun. I am just making sure that EVERYONE realizes that whatever results from this tournament means nothing from a competitive stand point. I am allowed to make that disclaimer.

I stand by my statement. You two are advertising. If someone from serebii linked to a tournament on serebii, it would be advertising. Your implication that linking to a site with tournament sign ups AFTER BEING REJECTED HERE ON SMOGON is a joke, and a blatant disrespecting action towards the tournament moderators here.

What you are saying is "OK, you didn't allow us to run our tournament. But now we're going to advertise our site on your site anyway."

Nice try.

Spare me your pedantic nonsense. I was not rude for calling you out for attempting to cleverly bypass our tournament system.
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That's bullshit.

Smogon rejected their tournament, I assume on the grounds that they didn't think it relevant, or that because the format is undefined. So now, on a thread about defining NU, they're linking to a tournament that they believe to be helpful in developing the format. Smogon as a site isn't forced to accept the results of said tournament, it can only stand to be helpful.

And as for the notion of advertising, how does that make sense? Yes, if someone from Serebii came along, I'd agree, because it would make people want to go to Serebii, rather than Smogon. This is a site made exclusively for this tournament, and in order to sign up, you have PM somebody ON SMOGON. It isn't luring anyone away in the least.
 
You know, Obi's proposal hasn't come into effect yet. I'd say that this has competitive merit in that it creates a NU tier that's effective until Obi's proposal comes into effect.

Also, why can't we just update these tiers once Obi's proposal comes into effect? I see nothing wrong with discussing a NU tier and then working the statistics from the BL/UU plan into what we've established? The only response is "why don't you just wait until after Obi's proposal takes place", well why should time stand still until one particular proposal comes in to place, which may not be for weeks or months?

Hey, even if all the BL are unbanned, it's still flawed and arbitrary because we haven't done the same thing for ubers. So no matter what NU is going to be flawed and arbitrary I guess.
 
So what exactly are you calling bullshit on?

That I said putting a link to another site is advertising?

Lol, how is linking another site not advertising. Who says advertising is only limited to luring away users lmao.

Anyway, I am going to suggest this thread be closed.

There is no point in establishing a NU tier without establishment of the UU tier.

EDIT: That would be fine Umbarsc, if UU weren't going to be changed so drastically. This isn't simply a case of "updating" the tiers. The same thing that is happening now in UU will happen then in NU. People will have their "established" metagame, and start whining about us "forcing" the new one them. I'd rather just wait for the new UU.
 
Well there is already an established UU tier but, I know it's still undecided of what to do with a lot of the pokemon in it. But, that doesn't give you a reason to discourage testing of a new tier that would somehow lead to testing of the UU tier to be able to create a working tier without any questions of why is so and so pokemon is in this tier it's too powerful it needs moved up a tier.

EDIT: Also no offense to Aldaron with my previous post about you being jealous, I don't even know why I even posted that.
 
Also Sheed, it ISN'T being helpful at all. Smogon has already stated its desire to fix the UU tier.

What they are doing is using an NU tier defined on the old UU simply because they want to. They aren't helping us AT ALL.

They are doing what they want, and even advertising a tournament that was already rejected.

Basically they are saying "whatever I don't care" and not helping us at all.

You don't see where my incredulity comes from?
 
Aldaron said:
Also Sheed, it ISN'T being helpful at all. Smogon has already stated its desire to fix the UU tier.

What they are doing is using an NU tier defined on the old UU simply because they want to. They aren't helping us AT ALL.

They are doing what they want, and even advertising a tournament that was already rejected.

Basically they are saying "whatever I don't care" and not helping us at all.

You don't see where my incredulity comes from?
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I understand what you're saying, I'm saying that I personally am not of the same opinion.

I see no harm coming from this, only possible help. Even if it doesn't help, I don't see how it hurts anything. And people don't really want to wait a long time for UU to be fixed in order to play NU, how is that fair?
 
I can see how it could hurt, people could get "attatched" to this NU metagame and then complain when the UU revamp affects it.
 
OK, I'll summarize:

I'll won't take back the advertising bit, I will acknowledge that it is probably harmless.

I am upset that you guys would advertise a tournament that has already been rejected, but whatever, your prerogative.

This tournament should mean nothing competitively.

No, we will not establish an NU tier based on the current UU tier.

Have fun playing this tournament!
 
You know, Obi's proposal hasn't come into effect yet. I'd say that this has competitive merit in that it creates a NU tier that's effective until Obi's proposal comes into effect.

Also, why can't we just update these tiers once Obi's proposal comes into effect? I see nothing wrong with discussing a NU tier and then working the statistics from the BL/UU plan into what we've established? The only response is "why don't you just wait until after Obi's proposal takes place", well why should time stand still until one particular proposal comes in to place, which may not be for weeks or months?

Hey, even if all the BL are unbanned, it's still flawed and arbitrary because we haven't done the same thing for ubers. So no matter what NU is going to be flawed and arbitrary I guess.
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Thank you umbarsc. Your points are essentially the same as mine. The fact is that Obi's proposal doesn't exist yet, and this thread is by no means going to establish a permanent tier. If and when the UU/BL combination occurs, the NU tier will be rearranged. I don't really see why all actions involving the lower tiers needs to freeze completely.

Also this brings up the interesting point that ubers are indeed arbitrary. The majority of ubers haven't been tested in OU yet, so perhaps that is something to consider for another thread. For now this thread isn't harming anything so just settle down.

Also to be honest I don't really respect the tournament moderators all that highly. If they would prefer to have "random" tournaments than ones that could actually prove somewhat usefful that's their problem. The tournament page is simply an effective medium for hosting tournaments, not the absolute authority on whether they exist or not.
 
Well we have done the same thing for ubers.

We've tested them all in a no ban environment (what we are doing here), and then we set a first mass banning, after which we decide on individual cases.

Not arbitrary to me!
 
I don't recall a testing period where Kyogre,Dialga, Lugia etc. were ever tested in OU.They were banned based off of theorymon. And if you're talking about the Ubers environment, nothing can be banned based of usage in Ubers or dropped to OU, no matter how little a Pokemon may be used.
 
Uhh I'm saying the initial ban list was made in the ubers environment based off of subjective demands, just like the initial BL list will be made.

They were not banned off of theorymon. There was initially no bans (ubers). We played. We determined these set of Pokemon were too much.

We created our proposed balanced metagame. Then we let play testing move stuff like Manaphy and Garchomp out.

You make it sound like OU just existed out of no where.

Obviously it did not. There was an inital mass banning, which was made in the no ban environment.
 
We've tested them all in a no ban environment (what we are doing here), and then we set a first mass banning, after which we decide on individual cases.
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Um, no we haven't? We established an OU tier before the game came out. Palkia has never been legal in an OU battle. If you're referring to the ubers tier, nothing has been banned after testing in the ubers tier, and nothing should be changed based on a Pokemon's performance in ubers.
 
We look at every Pokemon, decide which are OU and uber. Before we test anything.

Kind of like the situation we have with UU isn't it?
 
Uhhh...no...

Yes, your general statement for "a Pokemon's performance in ubers has no basis for moving down a tier" is true, but only for individual cases.

However, of course we do not arbitrarily ban shit with no play testing lol. We take an idea of what we feel a balanced metagame is, and then we play test with no bans first. We use this idea and make an initial mass ban list.

So initially we're not calling the no ban metagame "ubers." Initially, the no ban metagame is considered "ou." A pokemon's performance in a tier might not mean anything for moving down, but it sure as shit means something for moving up. We play tested the no ban environment, and using our subjectively gained "idea" of what a metagame should be, we ban up into ubers.

That's what we're going to do here in UU.
 
I was talking about what happened, not what should have happened.

Which is what we're arguing about in the first place. We didn't do the process you just described, therefore OU is fundamentally flawed.
 
Huh, sure we did. Sure we might have had an OU tier list before the Ubers ladder...but that was clearly flawed.

We then had an OU list after it too.

They just happened to be the same.
 
Aldaron, are you speaking of the time when Shoddy was first introduced? Because I've been an active poster here since at least the beginning of 2006, when D/P were still news, and I can tell you that before shoddy came along, all of Smogon's tiers were arbitrary.

Yes, there was a very brief period where Manaphy and Wobbuffet were tested (and banned)... however, I can't recall there ever being a time when things like Lugia or Giratina were tested in OU at all, unless it was done "behind closed doors."

The fact is, our initial ban list for OU was based off no statistical fact at all, if I am not mistaken. Yes, Smogon has sought to set this right as of late, but there was a lot of playing and testing before the English release of D/P that went on. Back then, the focus was definitely just on finding out how the game worked.

If Lugia or Mewtwo or the like have ever, honestly been tested in OU, then my memory or lack of involvement is to blame and I apologize. However, if the Uber list was created because things were "lol uber," then perhaps this will shed some light on Cynthia's and umbarsc's point.
 
also, i think a lot of retiering has to happen with the release of platinum...


i almost think that the best way to start would be a total start over. maybe use the suspect thread, but allow absolutely everything. see what happens. it might be very surprising to see who rises to the top and who falls...in retrospect, thats probably what should have happened with d/p, and what should definitely happen if/when fifth gen comes out. keep a temporary system going with the old tiers as they stand, and then test everything in the mean time.


sounds crazy, but...
 
Cynthia said:
Being a mod does not give you the right to flame people. Your random trolling of this thread is not useful in any fashion.
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Tell me where I was trolling or flaming. Randomly implying that Aldaron is threatening anyone or being jealous just for saying the truth is, indeed, acting like an idiot. In fact, you just validated my statement, as you have also made me the target of such ridiculous insinuations. Feel fortunate that I'm not going to infract you for Disrespected Staff. Also, this tournament is, and this is not up for debate, completely arbitrary.
 
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