I'm sorry but people in glass houses really shouldn't be so eager to throw stones, particularly when their signature links to a project that is almost certainly as questionable as this.Anyway, we were talking about that NU list, which is flat-out junk.
How about Steel types? Not to mention that with paper thin defences and more pokemon with access to Sucker Punch things won't necessarily have to worry about taking STAB hits. Of course since current usages stats have Banette listed as #41 I'm not sure if/why its still going to be tested.Banette:What that isn't a Normal type in NU can take a STAB hit from this? Mightyena after an Intimidate?
The most used pokemon in UU saw 7831 uses last month, Bastiodon saw 780. Do you perhaps want to reconsider your "plenty of play" comment? As for what's going to break it, well its most commonly used sets can be easily played around with prediction.Bastiodon: Oh HELL NO. This thing sees plenty of play in UU, and what's ever going to break it in NU?
By your own reckoning Torkoal (930 uses) is no Camerupt (1024), who we all know is no Flareon (1224), who in turn is no Rapidash (1963), who pales in comparison to Ninetales (5830). Still the fiery tortoise can sit smugly in the knowledge that somewhere sits a melancholic Magcargo (263), preturbed by the knowledge that it's not and will never be Torkoal, the "Heatran of UU".Torkoal: You want to put the Heatran of UU into NU? O_o This guy sees a lot of play; he's no Camerupt but he has his role. For one thing, spinning.
Therefore it would be unfortunate and disappointing if this scenario was taken as far as what you've suggested might happen.I see nothing wrong with using this tournament to test stuff related to NU. If anything, perhaps we can use data from this to predict if stuff will be in NU when we correct the UU and BL tiers.
So you're implying that this is the only time I've ever made sense here on Smogon?For once, I agree with X-Act, he's actually making sense: the higher tiers' designs need to be finalized. Or at least started. :p
I'll ask you a question: how long is one inch?ChouToshio said:X-Act needs to get it out of his head that things can be solved with #'s when it comes down to subjective decision anyway (VOTING on Garchomp and Wobb has got to be the most brilliant thing smogon's done in the last few months). Alright, he probably knows this (as in policy overview, he constantly states that drawing the line is "arbitrary"). He should just make it more clear that people should give up the false hope of trying to do anything "objective" with this.
How the heck can you say Garchomp/Wobb being/not being in OU has nothing to do with what OU is? I know that you're trying to come up with some abstract definition of OU, but ultimately said definition will be created by the desires of the players, just as the players desired these two to NOT be part of what OU IS. Quite frankly, I think you're overcomplicating it unnecessarily.And by the way, what do Garchomp and Wobbuffet have got to do with the OU tier anyway? They were voted if they were ubers or not. What has that to do with determining what is OU or not?
I agree that, for now, that's the only thing we can do. Didn't I say this myself? But that doesn't stop me from continuing researching on this stuff.Here's what's wrong: A generation does not have an indefinite life. It has a life of a a few years. Now within that span of time, I'd rather have tiers decided by a hundred people saying "Raikou is too fucking strong for UU" next week, than 1 or 2 guys "researching" over the course of several months.
It would still hold. Even if Nintendo changed the functions, if I know how to approach things given the functions, I could do it for any set of functions that Nintendo cares to throw at us. That's why it's relevant. Even if I manage to do it only five years from now, if people would still be playing Pokemon at that time, it would be relevant. And even if they're not, it would still apply.I hate to burst your bubble X-Act, but I hardly see research into the mathematics behind "trying to seek out the objective analysis of power" for magical creatues that were invented by some game designers in Japan to be a great and meaningful undertaking, especially since no one in our community can know how long said research will even be pertenant. The next generation could come out in 2 years, and Nintendo might opt to use totally different functions (like the move from GSC to 3rd gen).
Haha, of course it isn't.Your "research" is certainly nowhere near as important as to deciding a measure of distance that will be used far into the foreseeable future by an entire nation.
And yes, I know you never said your research was.
Who says I chose the cut-off point?And no, I don't see how you choosing an arbitrary cut off point is any more of less respectable than getting a hundred top ranked players together every week and hearing their opinions, even if they are as shallow as "Fuck, Aero in UU??? lol" (and yes, the number 100 was completely arbitrary, no crime in that).
Of course I care. I'm fed up with people banning or allowing stuff "just because it's called Uxie". What kind of reasoning is that? Okay, so for now, that might be the best thing we have, but why not hope for a brighter future where that wouldn't necessarily be the case?BTW-- just to be clear, even if I'm naturally sharp with my words, I did not actually mean any disrespect in regards to the amount of effort you have put in. However, you do come across as caring way to much about defining it mathematically, when ultimately the we both know that the decision is made subjectively at some point. I mean, look at this comment:
That's something that pertains to Uberness, not to OU-ness. That's why it doesn't have anything to do with OU.How the heck can you say Garchomp/Wobb being/not being in OU has nothing to do with what OU is? I know that you're trying to come up with some abstract definition of OU, but ultimately said definition will be created by the desires of the players, just as the players desired these two to NOT be part of what OU IS. Quite frankly, I think you're overcomplicating it unnecessarily.
Maybe I am, but I don't care. If Smogon ends up not liking my research, I can always post it somewhere else.I think you're also taking it too personally. "This is the thanks I get??" Well, maybe the members in Policy Review asked you to do this and certainly they are thanking you for your work, right? On the other hand I don't recall asking you to do it so I should not be obligated to show any appreciation (though in truth, who would not be at least touched by the amount of effort you've given).
I think the issue is that they fear you're all going to create a tier by saying things such as 'Articuno is too strong, let's ban it' and then people will actually think it is THE NU tier, and we'll have the problem we're having right now with UU all over again.Wow power trip much.
The fact that Aldaron made 3 pages of this thread completely unreadable because its packed with the same argument in every other post should be proof enough that he's at least a douchebag. And when did anyone say this would define the NU metagame for Smogon(i.e. non-arbitrary)? I believe this thread was started to test the NU metagame(and have fun, naturally) and of course it wouldn't be set in stone since Pt is just being implemented so things are going to be shaken up anyway. Forgive us for not waiting an indefinite amount of time for something that may happen in the "near-future". I'm sure after UU's done we're going to have to wait another "indefinate amount of time" for the NU tier to be developed and from what I'm reading it's the bottom of the barrel and I guarantee at least 1-2 months after UU we'll hear it being "in the works".
Also when's this tournie going to start. Playing with the same 6 pokemon has become tiring to me.
Aldaron is a very respected member of Smogon. The fact that he repeated himself to make a point people were not understanding doesn't make him a jackass, especially when he's right. If he flamed people in the process, he'd be a jackass. But he didn't, all we was doing was clarifying an argument.The fact that Aldaron made 3 pages of this thread completely unreadable because its packed with the same argument in every other post should be proof enough that he's at least a douchebag.
Perhaps the thread "Defining the NU Tier" on Smogon's "Stark Mountain" sub-forum was a bit of a tipoff? Or the tournament, cleverly named "Smogon NU Tournament"?And when did anyone say this would define the NU metagame for Smogon(i.e. non-arbitrary)?
The thread is called "DEFINING the NU Metagame", so you should expect people to question the method of definement here.I believe this thread was started to test the NU metagame(and have fun, naturally) and of course it wouldn't be set in stone since Pt is just being implemented so things are going to be shaken up anyway.
So... you're impatient so you have to make a random NU metagame that won't be the same in a few months? The new UU is quickly forthcoming, and as that is established you need wait but one month to "work on" NU, when new UU usages show up. NU should be "bottom of the barrel" in my opinion, it's probably the least played, least important, and hardest to define metagame.Forgive us for not waiting an indefinite amount of time for something that may happen in the "near-future". I'm sure after UU's done we're going to have to wait another "indefinate amount of time" for the NU tier to be developed and from what I'm reading it's the bottom of the barrel and I guarantee at least 1-2 months after UU we'll hear it being "in the works".
The difference here is that we aren't making a metagame that will have to be redefined in a few months. We're also not attempting to make our tier list the one used by Smogon, nor are we directly conflicting with any Smogon ideas in the process. We also actually had our tournament approved.Cynthia said:blah blah Little Cup is doing it too!
You can do that, but the thing they want to make clear is that this means nothing in terms of Smogon's tier lists. Hopefully we'll have a LOT less Pokemon banned from UU at the end of the process, and if that happens, the break-off point for NU will be a lot higher too. And as I understand it, you don't seem to be including NFEs either (correct me if I'm wrong here), and they'll have a significant impact on the NU metagame, I suspect.No, Chris is me. The point is that people who actually like the lower tiers (UU and NU) are tired of waiting to see a new metagame "formed" around them, so they decided to take action and use what we have currently (UU stats). Of course it won't be vital for a few more months to come, especially since the arrival of Platinum that has shaken up the -entire- metagame, even OU. What we discuss here is entirely theorymon, but everyone knows (or at least -should-) that what makes a tier is actual testing. A simple NU tourney was made so we could take advantage of the little statistics we have about UU instead of not playing it at all.