Defunct CAP Buff 1 - Voodoom

Status
Not open for further replies.

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
This thread serves to outline the context of the mon being buffed, in terms of its original design intent, historic usage, current usage, and any other factors surrounding the mon that must be discussed before buffing or changing it in any way. This thread should also include discussion of the important updates this mon has gotten in terms of the SM-era updates, early gen 8 updates, and IoA tutor move additions. After discussion of context is concluded buff submissions and discussion will open.

The leader for this buff process is Rabia

The mon being discussed is Voodoom, whose stats, typing, and ability are listed below.

:voodoom:

Typing: Dark / Fighting

Abilities: Volt Absorb / Lightning Rod / Cursed Body

Stats: 90 / 85 / 80 / 105 / 80 / 110

Concept:

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
  • What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
  • What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
  • Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate?

Explanation:
This concept is very similar to the "Partner in Crime" concept proposed back in CAP 7. But, with all the changes in the CAP process, and stagnation in the metagame, I think this is a good time for the CAP community to focus on the competitive factors of synergy between pokemon.

I envision we will pick a base pokemon during the Concept Assessment. We will make a case to the TL for a good-but-not-great OU pokemon and the characteristics of that pokemon's "perfect mate". The Topic Leader would then select their favorite. We could even rename the concept to "<Pokemon>'s Perfect Mate" from that point forward.

It think we could have some fantastic discussions every step of the way, dissecting the base pokemon in exacting detail to figure out the best way to make an ideal teammate. If we choose the right base pokemon, we might even breathe some new life into a sentimental favorite, that isn't quite up to top-OU standards on its own.
Current Smogdex Set:
:voodoom:
Voodoom @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon

I will now handle this over to Rabia to make his first post.
 

Rabia

GOAT MAN GOAT MAN
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
Hi,

First off, thanks for voting me to be the inaugural Buff Leader; hopefully I'll be able to guide this process in a good direction :)

As the OP states, Voodoom's original concept was to be the ideal partner for a certain OU Pokemon, and it ended up being Togekiss. Currently, Voodoom is left vying on a position in the metagame on its own, though, due to Togekiss's lack of an OU presence.

Here are some questions I think would be helpful to address early on:
- Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.
- How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?
- What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?

Feel free to post now! Remember, though, that this isn't the stage to suggest specific buffs; that will come after we've discussed Voodoom some.
 
> How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?


I think trying to hamfist a pair with a different OU Pokemon is the wrong move here. Togekiss isn't exactly that relevant anymore, but we shouldn't actively be trying to pair Voodoom with a different Pokemon just because the Togekiss pair isn't working out, there are way too many nuances and details that go into making a perfect partner that we would have to actively tear apart a lot of what we have now to make a new one.

At worst, I think that it would be best to keep the ideals of "It wants to switch with a Flying/Fairy type" in mind. If it ends up accidentally being a partner for a different Flying or Fairy type that likes being played with us, like Tomohawk or Tapu Lele, that's fine too, but going for a specific non-Togekiss option explicitly should not be the goal.
 
Here to give my thoughts on the points we would want to address with Voodoom, and I feel like the most important one to note is;

Pairing Voodoom with another meta partner would be a mistake in giving it a more solid identity. The Meta shifts from time to time, and from generation to generation. If we make Voodoom's presence dependent on a mon that has the potential to drop out of the meta in the future, then we would be in the exact same spot as we are now. The way forward with Voodoom is with making it it's own self sufficient threat. With Partners, sure, but partners that have the ability to change as the generations move forward.

Some of the discussion that was to be seen on the discord when I was lurking in discussion was the topic of Voodoom lacking enough power, so new abilities were thrown around like Adaptability, Mega Launcher, and so on. What this tells me is that there's a desire to make Voodoom more immediately threatening rather than waiting for it to boost up and wreck through, and I for one agree for the most part.

What makes Voodoom special is that it's one of the very few special focused fighting types. And Its STAB combination is nearly unresisted save for fairies. Voodoom is also pretty fast, it speed ties with the lati twins. It screams a pokemon that wants to capitalize on switches. Allowing it more power to viably run an all out attacking LO or a substitute set would solve most of the problems that ail it I think, and would make it a premier threat.
 
- Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.
Voodoom is really just playing in a different league than other OU breakers and heavily struggles to ever assert itself over them. It has a few things going for it, but it tends to simply be outclassed by Pokemon like Hydreigon that can apply a greater amount of offensive pressure and even have a good amount of defensive value to provide. It is very close to being useable but because it's not quite strong enough, not quite fast enough, and finds itself easily revenge killed or forced out of the game, it's incredibly hard to make as much progress with Voodoom as you'd ever want to. There is no shortage of strong wallbreakers in this tier and Voodoom really has nothing to make you want to use it over basically any other option.
- How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?
I think concept loyalty is entirely irrelevant for us as a goal to pursue. It's totally fine if, say, as a side effect of a given buff, Voodoom ends up partnering well with a different OU pokemon and the concept somehow maintains itself; I think we can definitely acknowledge that and still count it as a win if it happens, but it is never something we should be going out of our way to pursue. As it stands today, the concept is way too outdated for us to be focusing on for this buff. If the concept is still intact after everything is said and done, then that's great, but it's incredibly limiting and arguably flat out infeasible for us to intentionally stay loyal to the original idea behind this CAP.
- What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?
I think Voodoom's strengths are its Speed tier and offensive coverage. 110 Speed is quite good compared to slower breakers in the tier, so this aspect definitely helps set it apart from the crowd. The second thing that Voodoom really has going for it is its coverage––I don't think I need to remind anyone of how good Dark/Fighting STABs are on a powerful wallbreaker (hello urshifu), but having those STABs supplemented by Steel + Electric coverage is genuinely insane. Nidoking is a very easy example to draw, just in terms of being a wallbreaker with an essentially unresisted moveset. I also think Voodoom has the potential to be a mixed attacker which is a pretty cool niche, and while this isn't nearly as defining or valuable as its Speed or coverage, it may still be worth examining as a strength we could possibly double down on.
 
- Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.

There is a lot wrong with Voodoom, but I think the core of the issue is that it is a breaker that cannot break. Part of this comes from its typing. Being full walled by fairies and Tomohawk hurts this mons viability so much. Now I know we've seen a mon with the same typing (Urshifu) excel in the CAP metagame, but Voodoom lacks Urshifu's raw power, and emulating the dominating presence Urshifu had in the metagame would not be a great goal for this project. I also think that Voodoom's abilities do not synergize well at all with what it is trying to accomplish. While Volt Absorb and Lightning Rod are nice in a vacuum, Voodoom loses outright to the three most common Electric types in the meta: Zapdos, Zeraora, and Tapu Koko. Its movepool is similarly lacking in the necessary utility to get work done. Comparing Voodoom to a mon like Kerfluffle, which has access to Parting Shot and a better fairy breaker in Sludge Bomb, or Hydreigon, which has access to Roost and the far superior STAB in Draco Meteor, is laughable. Recovery in particular is something that I think Voodoom would appreciate as an NP user. Finally, while Voodoom's Speed can be useful, it often is outpaced by the mons it wants to come in on, namely Dragapult and the aforementioned Zeraora, and the rest of its stats don't help it in any meaningful way. So, in conclusion, pretty much everything about Voodoom is lackluster in some way, so going foreward, we need to keep in mind that buffing just one part of Voodoom probably won't be enough to bring it back into relevance.

Relevant calcs for this argument:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 319-376 (99 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 161-191 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Voodoom: 344-408 (106.8 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 284-336 (88.1 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
 
Last edited:
Most of this already got said while I was typing this up, so I might as well include some extra context.

CAP 11 - Final Product

SM-era update: CAP Updates: Voodoom Discussion (Complete)
Notable additions: Flash Cannon, Nasty Plot, Thunderbolt, Cursed Body (hidden ability)

Early Gen 8 update: Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP11 - Voodoom
Notable additions: None (mostly consistency changes)

IoA update: CaP Updates IOA Tutors
Additions: Burning Jealousy, Coaching, Lash Out, Rising Voltage

Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.
Voodoom's lack of a strong presence in the current CAP metagame stems from a number of different issues. Its stats have not kept up with power creep particularly well, especially its 105 SpA. Exacerbating this is its dependence on a relatively weak STAB in Dark Pulse and an infamously unreliable STAB in Focus Blast. It does have Nasty Plot to help out its power issues, but it has difficulty finding opportunities to set up, especially in the face of the many Hurricanes flying around (along with the occasional Moonblast), and dislikes losing its Life Orb. While its abilities afford it an Electric immunity, the most prominent Electric-type and Volt Switcher in the metagame, Zeraora, handily outspeeds and packs Close Combat. It also faces heavy competition from Hydreigon as a special attacking Dark type, which packs the much more useful and immediately threatening Draco Meteor, a set of more useful resistances thanks to its typing, a more useful immunity from Levitate, and a much better Special Attack, as well as Kerfluffle as a special attacking Fighting type, who packs a better speed tier and special attack and utility in Parting Shot.

How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?
I really don't think that concept loyalty is particularly important here. Voodoom is the first of the partner concepts (other examples being Volkraken's Major Third with Latias and Lucario and Plasmanta fulfilling its concept by partnering with Mega Gyarados), and historically these partnerships have not weathered meta changes very well for various reasons. For this reason, CAP tends to stay away from partner concepts, and I think this applies to this situation as well. If we manage to play into the concept, great, but focusing on it would be rather limiting (especially given that this buff should not border on a rework).

What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?
Voodoom's biggest asset is its four move coverage in Fighting/Dark/Steel/Electric, which hits a large portion of the metagame super-effectively and is virtually unresisted. Dark/Fighting is a rare STAB combo in the CAP metagame that, as established by Urshifu-S, pairs very well with Future Sight. As mentioned above, it also sits at a respectable 110 Speed (one of the parts of Voodoom that has aged more gracefully).
 
Normally I like to be loyal to original concepts, but as stated earlier, partner concepts are inherently unstable. It is better to try and generalise the concept of we want to keep it. So, as suggested, make it more of a Pokemon that Flying and Fairy types appreciate having on the same team.


Edit: The thing Flying types and Fairy types both hate in general is steel types. The good thing is that Voodoom already has fighting STAB to deal with Steel types and if they pair with Ghost to grant immunity to that, it leaves them vulnerable to Voodoom's dark STAB. Also good is that Voodoom is a special attacker which targets most steel types' Weaker defense. It is also a wallbreaker which means it deals with walls which is the most common role steel types have. Also, Steels are very common in the metagame and that is unlikely to change without an unpredictable type chart change. Getting rid of them is therefore a significant niche that is the main reason Magnezone was used for multiple generations. As such, turning Voodoom into "better Magnezone" seems like the best option to lean into its strengths and stay as loyal as possible to its concept
 
Last edited:

Voltage

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
- Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.

I think one of the biggest issues with Voodoom right now is its typing, if only because it is an active detriment given its stats (which I actually believe are the root cause of Voodoom's current issues). A small note that I'd like to add about Voodoom losing to the other electric types in the meta. The issue mostly stems from the fact that the main three Electric types in this metagame all can reliably beat Fighting or Dark types really quite well. Zapdos has Hurricane, Koko will often have Dazzling Gleam and Zera has Close Combat. As we've seen before, Urshifu-S has shown that a Dark/Fighting type breaker can be successful in this metagame, but Voodoom lacks presence as it cannot effectively break open the metagame and loses to a lot of things its effectively supposed to beat by nature of typing.

But I think the point of issue here is the stats, or at least a lack of power. Aside from a really nice 110 Base Speed and somewhat workable 105 SpA, Voodoom's really middling defense do it no favors with its typing. So naturally, you'd expect to go full offense with Voodoom, but sadly 105 SpA + 110 Spe just doesn't cut it in this metagame if you're trying to be an offensive wallbreaker. I think I most attribute Voodoom's raw power with stats given its rather nice ability in Volt Absorb, but I do see merit in changing its ability to something much less passive. Giving Voodoom means to break through less SpD tanky mons would absolutely improve its viability in this metagame. Given it's already got really nice coverage options, the clearest way to improve Voodoom, in my opinion, is to find a way to increase its power output so that it can find use on teams through offensive means.
 
- Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.
A lot has already been touched on by others but I would like to add one thing:

Voodoom is a special attacker with two really poor specially offensive types. Dark and Fighting, in total, have 8 damaging moves on the Special side. (Final Gambit doesn't count IMO.) Focus Blast is the only one to have strong breaking power, at 120 BP. Everything else doesn't break 100, and of those, the more passable Fiery Wrath and Secret Sword are exclusive moves for G-Moltres and Keldeo. Night Daze almost counts but is learned by Zoroark and Lunala so it's not really exclusive.

What you're left with is two 80 BP moves (Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere) that, while consistent, are consistently mediocre at damage output; a 120 BP moves that, while dangerous, is dangerously infuriating to rely on; and two <60 BP moves (Snarl and Vacuum Wave) that, while having cool utility, don't add much to a Pokemon that wants to hit hard and fast.

Other Dark type attackers are much better at the "damage quickly" part. Hydreigon clicks Draco to delete what's in front of it; if there's a Steel or Fairy type use coverage or just leave. Bisharp has a strong Knock-Off, a terrifying Sucker Punch, and its choice of setting up with SD or getting a Defiant proc to let it rain havoc. Weavile's secondary Ice STAB and great Speed make it both hard to switch into and actually revenge kill without an even faster Pokemon. All three have attacking stats well over Voodoom's 105 SpA, and run STAB moves that are way more powerful and much safer to use.

- How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?
Loyalty to the original project looks like a one-way ticket to nowhere. Voodoom was designed in a metagame back before we even had Team Preview, with its partner being the decidedly "good-but-not-great" Togekiss, who not only failed to preserve its footing in future OU metagames but also radically changed identity from a Normal/Flying type to the unique Fairy/Flying type its been for 3 generations now.

The whole idea of pairing is a very antiquated way of thinking about CAPs and it shows. You're banking the viability of one Pokemon on that of another, and there's no guarantee that said Pokemon will remain relevant. It may have been cool for the moment, but as time goes by chances are things are going to fall out of place. I think this is something we understand and try to design around today that wasn't being done before.

I also don't understand why we'd want our concept to revolve around a CAP working with with a specific Pokemon or set of Pokemon. To me that's just basic teambuilding and comes naturally. We could do so much more with a CAP instead of shoehorning it into doing something it could accomplish otherwise.

If we want to try and preserve some semblance of its original intent, it should be more focused on fitting alongside offensive Pokemon which benefit from its presense. As an example Flying and Psychic types stand to gain a lot from it, as Voodoom dumpsters every Steel in the meta apart from Cawmodore with it's STAB combo and access to Electric moves, and our STAB also cleanly removes the other defensive obstacles to Psychic types spamming their respective moves. (Electric immunities would help for Flying types too, if we didn't just die to the prominent Electrics anyhow.) Voodoom was designed as part of an offensive core and I think it should remain as such by having it "pair" with whatever flavor of offensive synergistic type is being used at the moment.

- What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?
By far its typing. Now, defensively it's pretty wack; the 4x resist to Dark is cool, you resist SR, are immune to Electric, and it's a Fighting type that doesn't fear Psychic moves, but you also die to the plethora of Fairy STAB, Flying STAB, and Fighting coverage. And in a metagame where the Electrics kill you with Fairy STAB, Flying STAB, and Fighting coverage, the Electric immunity doesn't really help. And in a metagame where the best Dark move is often used for its crippling effect rather than damage, the resistance doesn't matter because your Life Orb is gone and now you deal even less damage. Oh and the scariest Psychic type is part Fairy.

Now, offensively? Disgusting really. Dark/Fighting is really good neutral coverage on its own. Dark especially has limited switch-ins: Fighting types are fairly uncommon outside of a select few, while Dark types just get smashed by your Fighting STAB. Fairy is the biggest challenge, but Voodoom gets Flash Cannon to deal with those, and even gets Thunderbolt to complement it further. Unresisted coverage like this is very powerful for applying pressure on switches, and this feels like something Voodoom would love to capitalize on if it, well, could. Having STAB Fighting is also really good as its a generally strong offensive type that preys on the common Steels.

Being unique doesn't mean good, and I already mentioned how Dark and Fighting tend to falter in their Special Attacking prowess. In a purely match-up based sense, however, our STAB is extremely solid, and our coverage moves largely do what we need them for.

Also that speed tier kinda clean ngl
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?

This falls with consensus pretty hard but forcing Voodoom with a partner is a fool's errand and really not the best direction for Voodoom. Even if we succeed, which I think is notably harder than Voodoom doing its own thing, we really aren't making the CAP better itself by but instead making it a good accessory to a different mon. This is a really artificial solution even if we pair it with another CAP simply because the relevance of Voodoom is entirely dependent on a viability of a completely different mon which might fall out of viability or be completely cut from the metagame itself as shown by the effects of Dexit. This is literally what happened to its "Perfect Mate" Togekiss: the set it was built around stopped being optimal and even Togekiss itself fell out of the tier. Giving Voodoom its own actual benefits will mean it has a much more solid chance of becoming viable regardless of the state of any partners in it.

Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.

Most have it covered, but the general persevering point is that Voodoom is a wallbreaker that simply can't wallbreak. 105 Special Attack in this current meta is simply not up to snuff, so Voodoom is basically forced to rely on Nasty Plot to get the boosts that it needs. This itself offers a problem, as to fit Nasty Plot on your sets Voodoom can only choose three attacks. Safe to say, Voodoom really wants four attacks. Nasty Plot 3 + Attack basically leaves a large hole in its coverage whichever move it chooses to drop for setup. Dark + Fighting are really important because they are a very solid STAB combination and are going to be its strongest attacks neutrally, Flash Cannon is neccesary for having basically any chance against Fairy-types, and Thunderbolt is basically required in the meta when you have pretty much no other option to hit Tomohawk for actually decent damage.

That is, of course, assuming that you can actually set up, because Voodoom certainly doesn't get the chance to. 90/80/80 bulk simply does not cut it in the metagame today, and Dark/Fighting leaves it open to a lot of common weaknesses like Fighting, Flying, and Fairy especially. While Volt Absorb/Lightning Rod on paper give it the ability to switch in on Electric-types like Koko, Zeraora, and Zapdos, all of them carry the appropriate coverage to be able to decimate Voodoom in an instant. Even with its solidly great 110 Speed tier, there is very little chance you will be able to throw out a single boosted attack before being shot down and out.

What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?

While I don't expect us to be giving this 'mon Special Wicked Blow, Dark/Fighting as an offensive typing is pretty freaking good, and considering its coverage options together Dark/Fighting/Steel/Electric is basically unresisted and hitting a lot super effectively. Probably boosting it to ridiculous levels of power is bad since hitting so much supereffectively is dangerous, but this is 100% an element that can be leveraged in Voodoom's favor.

Voodoom is also like, shockingly fast at 110 Speed. That is really good for a wallbreaker and while we aren't outspeeding everything, its good for what Voodoom probably wants to do: use its coverage to hit hard before it can die.

I'm basically echoing Voltage in this opinion, but the best thing to do for Voodoom is to give it the power it wants so it can use all four of its slots and its speed tier effectively instead of wasting its time on setting up.
 
Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.
Its an offensive geared mon without a good offensive stat and shitty base power or unreliable moves/coverage. Thats literally it

How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?
I dont really like the idea of forcing mons to stick with outdated and pre-explored concepts. It would be a whole new process to attach Voodoom to a new mon similar to its first concept, we should take the mon we currently have as a starting point, and go from there

What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?
Whats unique about Voodoom at the moment to me is two things:
a) its an electric immunity on a weird typing
b) its a nasty plot "sweeper" with STAB priority.

to me, both of these qualities make good potential additions to teams- having the breaker on your team provide some speed control as well as one of the "required" immunities for your team is quite a useful package, even if some electrics have threatening coverage. On top of that, its decently bulky, has great STAB typing and has a good speed tier. The issue it has is its not a breaker with that miserable spa and base 80 bp/always missing attacks.

edit: i'll also add this- having the electric immunity is not as worthless as people seem to think. what makes it worthless is that after switching in, voodoom cannot capitalize on the free turn with its low damage output. plenty of other mons make risky switches on immunities/resists when they could be hit super effectively and this is a great part of mons that id like to see stay. if it can be buffed to pose a threat to electric/twave users like zapdos, nidoking, cyclohm, krilo, astro, blissey, plasmanta and whatever else that might like to switch in, the risky play will be rewarded. the only mon that it cant get any value trying to switch in on is tapu koko if it carries dazzling gleam, or zeraora if its slightly chipped. as discussion progresses i can provide some routes which make lightningrod look more appealing.
 
Last edited:
Oh boy, time to actually engage in a cap discussion for once. I don't have enough knowledge on the CAP metagame, but imma just..

Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else

Voodoom is created to be an offensive pokemon, but it has a rather low special attack stat for today's standards. Abilities both giving it an electric immunity is nice, but they are still eh at best. Dark and Fighting is a good offensive type, but being a special attacker, its stabs are again, eh at best. Dark pulse and Aura sphere both do low damage, and Focus blast is just an inaccurate move. All and all, Voodoom just gets outclassed by Hydreigon really.

How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?

I do not think that voodoom should be paired with different OU pokemon. The meta changes time to time, new caps get added, certain pokemon get buffed, some get nerfed, you get it. Obviously, Volkraken and Plasmanta suffered the problem of this, with the removal of Mega lucario, latios, and gyaraods. So yeah, i think voodoom will benefit more as a standalone option.

What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?

As mentioned, Dark Fighting is a great offensive type, and having an electric immunity to switch in to Zeraora is nice too. It also has a relatively good speed tier, and not terrible bulk either.

Overall, Speed is great for a wall breaker, and it could make a good addition to a team. Could. Voodoom is just held back by its medicore offensive power and bad stabs to choose from.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Voodoom is an electric immunity that is OHKO'd by most of the format's electric types, a ghost resist that cannot switch into Dragapult, a dark resist that cannot switch into dark types, and a psychic resist that its OHKO'd by Tapu Lele. Its defensive typing is awkward at best, and the focus on being an electric immunity is a function that it simply cannot fulfill against CAP's main electric types.

It is a special wallbreaker, that, while admittedly having great coverage, lacks power due to its most reliable stab maxing out at 80 BP, and who can't really afford to drop any of its moves for Nasty Plot due to needing all 4 to hit the tier super effectively, and thus do damage.

While 110 speed is fast, its not quite fast enough to break into the top tier of mons, and means that you're outsped by key pokemon such as Cawmodore, Tornadus-Therian, and Kerfluffle.

What makes it unique is its interesting set of resists (with elec immunity), and more importantly its fantastic 4 move coverage with Dark/Fighting/Electric/Steel. Its speed is almost enough to make it unique in a fairly crowded field as well.
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
I am going to answer these questions out of order, because I think they flow into each other that way,

What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?

Voodoom's niche is a wallbreaker. It's coverage is absolutely fantastic for a wallbreaker. I ran some calcs of Voodoom's (subjectively) strongest set atm, LO 4 Attacks, against a number of common Pokemon from the upper VR rankings.

3HKOs

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 161-191 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 151-182 (38.3 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 177-211 (44.2 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

2HKOs / OHKOs

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 200-237 (47.2 - 56%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 138-164 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 294-347 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 183-216 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 338-400 (87.5 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 242-286 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 265-312 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Tapu Fini: 166-198 (48.2 - 57.5%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 175-208 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krilowatt: 281-331 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 218-260 (70 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 72 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 230-270 (61.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cyclohm: 196-231 (46.6 - 55%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jumbao: 190-226 (58.2 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 460-541 (111.9 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 253-298 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 198-237 (50.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Arghonaut: 195-231 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 265-312 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 175-208 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 161-192 (52.9 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 338-400 (47.3 - 56%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

Basically, if the Voodoom player can predict right (and hit Focus Blast) Voodoom can threaten to 2HKO a lot of slower Pokemon, as well as severely dent a number of faster ones. I don't think Voodoom has much of a niche outside of this. As people have mentioned already, its a pretty medicore switch-in to Electric-type moves aside from Pult TWave, and running Nasty Plot sacrifices one of those crucial coverage slots that Voodoom needs to utilize as a wallbreaker. It does have a nice Speed tier tho, and its immunity to Future Sight is appreciated in Slowking's meta.

Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else

As my calcs show above, I don't think Voodoom's current issue is simply power. Even with only 105 Special Attack, LO Voodoom can threaten a large number of common Pokemon, especially walls and more defensive sets. Instead, I think Voodoom's main issues fall into three categories: reliability, survivability, and ease of execution.

Focus Blast accuracy is shit. This is Voodoom's biggest problem, since a lot of these important 2HKOs it can get are entirely dependent on hitting Focus Blast. Yes, it gets Aura Sphere, but Voodoom NEEDS Focus Blast to function as a wallbreaker with 4 Attacks. It doesn't have a Dark-type power move to fall back on, and even if it did, being able to 2HKO Blissey is a pretty big deal for a special attacking wallbreaker. A lot of players have a somewhat justifiable aversion to Pokemon that rely so heavily on an inaccurate move to wallbreaker, especially one that also requires precise prediction like Voodoom.

Unlike Krilowatt, Nidoking, and Clefable, Voodoom doesn't have to luxury of avoiding Life Orb recoil. This, combined with its suboptimal defenses, makes Voodoom a fairly easy Pokemon to wear down. It can't utilize moves like Giga Drain or Drain Punch to offset the LO recoil, and it probably couldn't afford to run a recovery move if it had one.

The combination of poor reliability and survivability feed directly into Voodoom's difficulty. It is not an easy wallbreaker to use. If you don't predict right, you get punished for 10% of your health and can be easily forced out due to Voodoom's poor defenses. Voodoom can net a lot of 2HKOs, but it cannot reliably follow up a resisted hit with a SE hit against a lot of things (it can, however, play for the neutral into SE hit in some cases, such as Flash Cannon into Thunderbolt having a decent chance of 2HKOing Tomohawk.) Compared to less punishing wallbreakers like Kerfluffle (decent three move coverage, Moonblast is stronger than Dark Pulse, as well as a generally safe play in Parting Shot) or Nidoking (great coverage with no recoil for predicting wrong) Voodoom is harder to utilize, and even if you do, you sometimes just miss Focus Blast lol.

How important is concept loyalty to this buff process? Would it be fruitful to try and pair Voodoom with a different OU Pokemon, or would we benefit more from simply having Voodoom be a better standalone option?

I am pretty sure Voodoom already has its partners: anything that appreciates fast wallbreakers, and pivots that can help Voodoom get in safely because this mon just gets worn down so quickly already. I think choosing a specific Pokemon from one of these taverns is not going to be fruitful. Voodoom will find its best friends as it gets more use.
 
Last edited:

Zephyri

we are, we are, we are not beautiful
is a Top Artist
Concept aside, why does Voodoom lack a strong presence in the current CAP metagame? This can be as a result of stats, movepool, or anything else you can think of.

Put it simply, it hits like a wet noodle. It struggles to OHKO anything even with a Life Orb, meaning that, to make progress with it, you'll have to get an insane amount of 50/50s right; and all of this is exacerbated by the fact that its best move, Focus Blast, has horrendous accuracy. Furthermore, Voodoom has very little defensive utility, and whatever niche it could've had as an offensive VoltBlocker is crushed by the fact that every common VoltSwitch user beats it pretty easily.


What is unique about Voodoom? What does it contribute to the current metagame that sets it apart from other, similar options?
I think the best things you can build upon w Voodoom are the speed and the 4move coverage. 110 is really good in this metagame imo for a wallbreaker because although youre outsped by dedicated fastmons and cant act as speed control, you're able to narrowly beat all of the midtier and slow mons and you're almost never outsped on a defensive team. Steel/Dark/Fighting/Elec is also, like, really good coverage that hits the majority of the metagame SE. tldr; Speed is great for a wallbreaker, coverage is great. however the mon has awful damage output and is killed by a weak breeze
 

Rabia

GOAT MAN GOAT MAN
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
General consensus on Voodoom's problem seems to revolve around the fact it's a wallbreaker that, despite of its fantastic overall coverage, struggles to find any level of effectiveness due to low BP/unreliable STAB moves, not great stats, and a Speed stat that just is really awkward. People have also noted that while Voodoom has some interesting defensive merit to it thanks to typing and ability, it fails to actually leverage those traits in any meaningful way; quziel's post details this effectively.

I think we're good to start discussing potential buff directions. This isn't the point at which to formally submit buffs, but you can address specific changes you think would be good. Here are some guiding questions for this part:

- Currently, Voodoom has two offensive routes it can try to go: all-out attacker and Nasty Plot sweeper. Would we gain more by focusing in on one of these specific builds, or should maintaining both sets be a goal?
- What are the most effective ways to go about addressing the fact Voodoom's power level falls quite short of its competition?
- Is maintaining the defensive utility Voodoom's abilities provide worth it long-term, or is dedicating entirely to Voodoom's offensive potential likely to find us more success?
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Yo, NP sorta bad cause you need 4 slots to attack, lets not focus on it.

We need to increase its reliability (focus blast sucks), and honestly its overall power (increase the power of either Dark Pulse or Thunderbolt, or all moves a bit).

Focus on its offensive potential and let people use it as as horrid ghost check on like heatran teams.
 
NP or all out attacker?
The two routes have a lot of overlap when it comes to calcs. Its hard to imagine a situation where all-out works but NP doesnt, it has decent 3 move coverage and a power buff lets it rely less on hitting SE to make some damage stick. so if you make a all out attacker that works itll work as a np mon also. I think 4 attacks sets work just fine, and they fit its previous identity, so you can focus on 4 atks with its 4 main attack types (dark/fighting/steel/elec) for now

Best way to address power level
More spa. A boosting ability starts to become overkill, voodoom is not miles away from good, and only needs to reach the "heights" of other low tier wallbreakers like latios and nidoking to start being considered for slots- if anything, those power levels could be considered a ceiling as voodoom compresses many of their qualities at once. There arent any step-ups wrt base power moves available, so if it comes down to ability changing and spa boosting its better to go for spa.

Maintain electric immunity?
This is going to be very contentious. I really really like the idea of keeping voodoom's unique electric immunity. Ima post what I said before:
" having the electric immunity is not as worthless as people seem to think. what makes it worthless is that after switching in, voodoom cannot capitalize on the free turn with its low damage output. plenty of other mons make risky switches on immunities/resists when they could be hit super effectively and this is a great part of mons that id like to see stay. if it can be buffed to pose a threat to electric/twave users like zapdos, nidoking, cyclohm, krilo, astro, blissey, plasmanta and whatever else that might like to switch in, the risky play will be rewarded. the only mon that it cant get any value trying to switch in on is tapu koko if it carries dazzling gleam, or zeraora if its slightly chipped."

Lightningrod does not grant Voodoom guaranteed benefits. However, I feel like changing ability will scramble its identity when it isnt necessary to do so. Lets look at the current calcs with Lightningrod:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 242-285 (75.3 - 88.7%)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krilowatt: 419-495 (94.5 - 111.7%)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 224-265 (85.8 - 101.5%)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 320-377 (81.2 - 95.6%) (twave user)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 507-601 (71 - 84.1%) (twave user)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cyclohm: 292-344 (69.5 - 81.9%)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cyclohm: 438-516 (104.2 - 122.8%)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 341-403 (93.4 - 110.4%) (twave user)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 32 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 230-270 (63 - 73.9%) (twave user)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 277-328 (91.4 - 108.2%) (thunderbolt user)


As you can see, +1 Voodoom hits decently hard, but nothing too crazy- in almost all cases, its not threatening an OHKO for its risky switch. however with specs and a spa boost, all of these become ohkos. That becomes more of a payoff for making a risky play. It can still obviously eat a non-electric move from many of these mons that threatens it greatly, but hey, risky switches on immunities and resists are a part of mons and Id be sad to see Voodoom lose this aspect when maintaining it alongside small buffs would let Voodoom actually use it well for the first time in a long time.
 
Voodoom having two electric immunities and a rather lacking third ability in Cursed Body leaves enough space for us to consider giving it another competitive ability, one which hopefully addresses its biggest issues.

Damage and reliability are the two major roadblocks in terms of it securing a niche, and I think there are a lot of potential candidates for a simple ability swap going a long way in addressing some of its core problems.

Damage-boosting options are pretty obvious and seemingly unpopular so I would like to put more emphasis on making Voodoom less of a gamble when using its powerful Focus Blast. Accuracy-boosting abilities like Compound Eyes or No Guard would make Focus Blast much more viable and also open the door for adding stronger coverage options like Thunder. Not only would such a role be unique for a Fighting-type, but also quite powerful, given the raw strength and potential utility of lower-accuracy moves. This wouldn't necessarily take away from sets looking to use our Electric immunity either (taking advantage of Electric moves to give ourselves a +1 boost has some nice benefit), giving us two potential ability builds to work with.

Stat boosts may still be needed in areas but I think we can get a lot more creative than just raising the Special Attack stat and calling it a day.
 
If retaining Voodoom's electric immunity is desired, I think it'd be fine to keep one of its two electric immunities (I think Volt Absorb has more use overall for Voodoom given that it can't really touch Electric types). However, as has been already detailed, Voodoom does not get as much milage as other mons would out of that immunity, so I think the first thing we should look at is what abilities can we give Voodoom to increase its offensive potential.

Here is a list of abilities that are of some use to Voodoom offensively just to spark discussion:
Adaptability
Berserk
Competitive
Flare Boost
Magic Guard
Mega Launcher
No Guard
Sheer Force
Tinted Lens
 
Adaptability
Berserk
Competitive
Flare Boost
Magic Guard
Mega Launcher
No Guard
Sheer Force
Tinted Lens
Adaptability & Mega Launcher
These are both great and do the same thing in boosting the power output of Voodoom's reliable STAB moves. Adaptability also boosts Focus Blast, which may be a negative because it could encourage people to continue to use the unreliable fighting STAB, but I guess it could be considered a good thing if we want it to have a shaky nuke option. Mega Launcher is more focused but really doesn't fit the flavor.

Sheer Force
This is really nice too. Broader boost and no Life Orb chip, but doesn't help with Fighting STAB.

No Guard
This was the first that came to my mind. Making Focus Blast reliable is awesome, too bad it doesn't learn Thunder. Since it doesn't do any favors to Voodoom's Dark STAB, I think this one would complement a potential SpA buff rather well. Minus a few points for always getting nailed by Tomohawk's Hurricanes.

Magic Guard
Avoiding all forms of passive damage is unquestionably nice, but Voodoom doesn't do the damage it needs to even with Life Orb, so if we went this route I think we would absolutely need to combine it with a boost to its SpA.

Tinted Lens
I don't like this one at all. Voodoom's problem is power output, not coverage, so this doesn't really solve our problems. Easing prediction against frailer switchins is nice, but we're still at a loss for breaking fat things. Also the flavor sucks.

Berserk & Competitive
These are more situational, and I don't think Voodoom is in the position to depend on said situations to be able to do its job.

Flare Boost
While it's a clean boost to all moves, I don't think Voodoom can afford the passive damage and having to worry about activating the Flame Orb.
 
Last edited:
Between Nasty Plot and and All-Out-Attacker, I don't think there really needs to be a distinction at this point. The two play very similarly, likely only differing by 1 move, and regardless our direction for our buffs is the same: Increasing power and consistency. As others have mentioned many times over, Voodoom's reliance on the 80 BP Dark Pulse and the 70% accuracy Focus Blast really hold it back from being an effective wallbreaker. With Dark and Fighting's special movepool options being so middling, I find it difficult to alleviate this issue without changing Voodoom's ability. In theory keeping our electric immunity would be nice, but in reality Voodoom's usage of its ability is far from effective, and trying to preserve our ability severely limits our buffing options. These buffs are best suited to making a wallbreaker of Voodoom's unique STAB combination, and I feel that preserving our Electric immunity is a distraction to that goal.
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
Agreeing with the general sentiment that focusing on the 4 Attack set would also catch the Nasty Plot set in the same net. I don't think we need to specifically focus on NP during the process; the only move NP probably runs that 4 Attacks wouldn't, aside from NP itself, is Vacuum Wave, which is a huge sacrifice in power or coverage for hitting a fairly narrow group of Pokemon that Voodoom both underspeeds and take reasonable damage from VWave.

As far as addressing the Voodoom power level, it really comes down to giving Voodoom an option that is both strong and reliable. Due to the limited number of viable STAB options we are working with, it really comes down to the following:
1) Improving the accuracy of Focus Blast (No Guard, Compoundeyes)
2) Boosting Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere power (Adaptability, Mega Launcher)
3) Boosting only Dark Pulse power (Dark Aura)
4) Giving Voodoom an ability that gives it an additional strong "STAB" (Electric Surge, Transistor)
5) Boosting Voodoom's raw power so all reliable moves are stronger (base stat increase, Sheer Force, Download, Flare Boost, Berserk, Competitive)

All of these options except 5 basically require some kind of new ability as a starting point. I don't think there is much way dancing around a new ability unless you can make a strong case for giving Voodoom a boost in the power of its coverage moves in ADDITION to boosting the power of its STABs. I think the case could be made for Voodoom getting a boost in its Electric-type coverage to hit Tapu Fini and Arghonaut slightly harder, but also because a strong Electric-type move gives Voodoom another decent option middle ground play. Sadly a strong Special-type Steel move doesn't exist, so any boost to its Steel-type coverage is a boost to everything (Steelworker would basically give Voodoom triple STAB but not address Voodoom's lack of a reliable power move.)

The alternative buff route is to address Voodoom's power level by giving it something unique compared to other wallbreakers. This is more of a "indirect buff," where you say Voodoom's power isn't THAT bad already but it could use some boosts that give it more attention from players, extra utility, and perhaps a more unique role. This would include options like Magic Guard, Magnet Pull, Surge Surfer; stuff that doesn't address Voodoom's damage output, but buffs something else to help compensate for or compliment its exisiting damage output. I personally think either route is valid for Voodoom, but the "indirect buff" I think leads us down more rabbitholes and could draw out the process. Could go either way here.

Oh and I don't see why Voodoom can't keep one of its Electric immunity abilities. Either one is fine; Lightning Rod is a nice power boost, Volt Absorb helps off-set hazard damage and Life Orb recoil. Could go either way here, also.
 
Honestly, I'm going to approach this from a different angle. What exactly does Voodoom gain from being a Dark type? Since it doesn't beat Dragapult, doesn't beat Pajantom, and doesn't beat LeLe, and gets outsped by all of the above, it seems to me that all the Dark type actually does that's an actual positive is give Voodoom weak STAB to hit literally just the SloBrothers with.

If that's all we're really doing with the Dark typing, we can always swap that out for something that hits more of the walls we're trying to wallbreak. We could even pair it with a typing that compliments its Electric immunity instead of actively hindering it.

Given how bad its Dark typing makes it against every mon it's trying to be good against, abs his little it adds to the table, I think his typing is the first thing we should really be examining.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 2, Guests: 0)

Top