Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

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I get a strong vibe from some of the pro-ubers camp that they're not wanting to adapt to Deoxys-S because it's "annoying". Yes, the pokemon can run a variety of sets, and yes, a misperdict might cost you a Pokemon, but that's hardly gamebreaking since the same can be said for just about anything.

I'm neutral on the whole thing since I don't care either way, but I don't find it to be disrupting or centralizing the meta to a more offensive one since every playstyle is still viable. A well built stall team can rip apart a HO team. Sure it would take careful play since the nature of HO is putting constant pressure.

I'm seeing quite a bit of theorymoning too, which is silly. As a person that uses Deoxys-S, I personally don't find him broken at all, rain teams spin against his hazards set with relative ease if they're not packing a blocker, and even then, most spin blockers get their faces smashed with the rain boosted moves.

I'd list more examples, but eh, you guys get the idea. This pokemon can be played around, but I don't think the sum of its parts breaks him in the slightest. Top tier threat that should be considered for every team just like the others? Yes. Broken no. It's not like you have to run unreasonable stuff to threaten it either, it just requires smart play and some forethought, which a lot of players think if it requires "effort" to beat instead of being easy pickins it must be banned asap.
 

alexwolf

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Yea, except I have several times now. It's the best, yes, but the other screens can get up screens too. Try running uxie or azelf. Except for the occasional scarfer it will get up 2 screens most of the time. Deo doesn't even run attacks as a screener. There are things that can stop deo without fearing its coverage. Most leads don't even run taunt except other deo. Try running deo, it doesn't even get 3 turns half of the time. Try using it, go ahead. The difference between UU (NU? RU?) Uxie and deo is steath rock and not being taunted by rare taunt leads??? Also Uxie can get 2 screens against CB zor and rotom.
Setting up guranteed screens and setting up screens some times or most of the times makes a huge difference.
And stop telling me that while Deoxys-S is the best screener there are other screeners too.
That can be said for every attacker or wall.Ok we banned a broken offensive pokemon but there are others too.
Stop simply mentioning that there are other screeners.As you said yourself Deoxys-S is the best and this is what matters.
If you continue to think that if Deoxys-S wasn't around then another screener would just take its place then i seriously don't have much else to say to you.
Also when you talked about the other screeners you wrote that:''Except for the occasional scarfer it will get up 2 screens most of the time''

What matters is that these scarfers are occasional as you said and are solutions to a problem.But there are solutions!
With Deoxys-S these solutions are much fewer.Don't you see it?
You say that many things can stop Deoxys-S without fearing its coverage.Except that while they try to kill him he sets up both screens and even SR occasionaly.turning them into sitting ducks.
So what if he doesn't kill them,the sweepers of the team will.
Also you say that most leads don't run Taunt.First of all there is no such thing as a lead anymore.You put your lead according to the opponent's team.
And no matter how rare Taunt is,you always have the choice of putting a fast taunter to prevent such strategies.Except Deoxys-S of 'course!

The difference between Uxie and Deoxys-S,as screeners,are the follwoing(last time that i mention them it is getting tiring really):
-Deoxys-S cannot get Taunted except from the MH users
-Deoxys-S cannot get setup on
-Deoxys-S has much bigger unpredictability than Uxie
-Deoxys-S can avoid getting ohkoed or 2hkoed by many pokes that Uxie fails because he can put up a screen always first!
For example the standart DS Uxie for OU gets 2hkoed and outsped by specs Latios and specs Politoed 100% of the time and thus only gets 1 screen.But Deoxys-S always survives the first hit and lives to put the second screen or SR.

Now do you get the big differences or not yet?

How are you going to Taunt Espeon? It can't be Taunted.
Espeon won't be set up on either (have fun setting up on 130 base Sp Atk. What if it's running an offensive set and kills you as you set up?)
It's really hard to kill Espeon before it gets both Screens up. With 110 base Speed, not much is faster, and it can survive a heck of a lot with the appropriate Screen up. Looks like you need Scarfers or ridiculously hard hitters to prevent both Screens from being set up.

All three of these things sound like..... Deoxys-S!.
That's why i said or.Every other screener except Deoxys-S will run into any of those 3 problems.
If Espeon is leading then you know that it runs a DS set and thus is not offensive.
And many things can setup on a DS Espeon like Dragonite or Volcarona.
Finally it is not that hard to kill Espeon before it gets screens up.
Assuming max HP and max Speed here is a list of pokes that limit her to only 1 screen or even no screen at all:

-Specs Latios/LO Latios(50% of the time due to speed tie)
-CB Scizor 2hkoes 100% of the time with BP
-ScarfTar easily ohkoes
-Bandtar easily ohkoes behind Reflect
-Scarf Terakion always 2hkoes with SE and X-Scizor
-Scarf Haxorus always ohkoes if Adamant and has a chance to ohko if Jolly
-Scarf Politoed always 2hkoes
-Specs Starmie always 2hkoes and LO Starmie has a big chance to 2hko

So it isn't so hard as you make it sound.Offensive teams always have a hard hitter and balanced teams often have a scarfer.Many of the pokes i mentioned are really common.
Now put Deoxys-S in the situation and see what happens.Deoxys-S easily sets up both screens and some times even SR.
Also Deoxys-S cannot be setup on by anything.



Not to be nitpicky, but Uxie out-speeds Scizor, sets up Reflect, and takes CB U-Turn for 39% max. Rotom-W uses Hydro Pump and does 45% max as Uxie sets up Light Screen. That combo didn't stop Uxie from getting both Screens up..
Yeah my bad on this one,i underastimated Uxie's physical defense.


So if Screeners that go for Speed get destroyed so easily, how does Deoxys-S not get destroyed equally easily? (And what can OHKO an Uxie? But nevermind, Uxie has nothing to do with this.).
Because Deoxys-S can put up a screen before they attack,is bulkier(since we are talking about speedy screeners i assume that you are talking about Azelf and Espeon)and cannot be setup on!Are those enough?

Deoxys running >2 viable sets means nothing. So does Rotom-W. If you mispredict with Deoxys, oh you might lose a single Pokemon. If you mispredict with Rotom (think it's a Scarf, for example) then it might 2HKO your Celebi with Specs HP Ice. Being unpredictable is only a problem if it allows the Pokemon to just dominate if you guess wrong (like DPP Salamence)..
The point is that Deoxys-S puts much bigger pressure than Rotom-W does.If Deoxys-S does his job and supports his team right and you don't stop him then you are in big trouble.But with Rotom-W you have more room to react and misspredict.Also Rotom-W has some hard counters that can deal with every single set while Deoxys-S has zero.
That's where Deoxys-S's versatility comes into play.When something as dangerous as Deoxys-S has also the surpirse factor then this is not a good thing.It only makes thing worse.It is common sense that if a pokemon's set is broken or may be broken(like Doexys-S DS set)the surpirse and versatiloty factor only make this set better.
What is easier to prepare for a Deoxys-S that you know that will always be the DS set or a Deoxys-S set that you can't be sure?
 

Meru

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It's basically Espeon, Starmie, and Ferrothorn in a bag. Even if you're playing against the set that your team is supposed to be good at, you have to sub-optimally assume it's the set that wrecks you and check that set, while in the process, probably leaving yourself open to the other sets that wouldn't wreck you if your guard was up, but are going to wreck you because you assume it's the most lethal set to your team.
 

Nix_Hex

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I made a few pages back regarding countering hazards and life orb deoxys-s using ferrothorn or forretress but I couldn't justify any way of reliably beating the dual screens. I still stated that I'd like to see it as OU. However, due to overwhelming evidence supplied by battlers much better than I, I change my position. When people are discussing things like CB Tyranitar just to beat Deoxys-S (rarely, I must say), things are going wrong. Way wrong. Deoxys-S for Uber.

p.s. I deleted a post on the previous page that I'd like to share, but I won't reveal the poster's name.
A max Hp Accelgor could easily just Final Gambit Deoxys-s and limit it to one screen/hazard when it's running dual screens or could just kill it outright with STAB Bug Gem Bug Buzz when running 252 SpAtk EVs, and that's really just the tip of the iceberg.
It has been stated multiple times that obscure and otherwise useless Pokemon with the tiniest of niches (beating DS Deoxys-S) are not to be considered. In particular, if this is your way of beating Deoxys-S, that is just sad because you are sacrificing your own Accelgor and the match is even at 5-5, not to mention the fact that your opponent will have both screens up if running Focus Sash, since Deoxys-S outspeeds Accelgor anyways.

From here on out, anyone making posts like this will receive a warning, no questions asked.
If you want to call me a hypocrite, remember that my suggestions of Ferrothorn and Forretress were based off of two viable Pokemon that play multiple roles outside of potentially beating Deoxys (hence they will be useful in a battle in which the opponent doesn't use a Deoxys).
 
Deo-S is not by any means broken. As a supporter, by using it you're exchanging a teamslot for sr/spikes. Priority, many scarfers, and anything that can spin wins you the matchup, as deo-s isnt staying around long. Its frail and without lo cant hit hard enough to do damage. Even with LO all Ive found is that it fills cracks in a team- revenging and lategame cleaning on low health enemies. There are a lot of other pokes that do the same, and are stronger but just dont have the movepool/coverage. Most don't even run hp fire in my experience. The other purpose an offensive set has is to lure checks to setup deo-s. If your logic for banning is that it's hard to check without knowing the set and that they have diffferent counters, then we might as well ban 90% of OU pokes, anything with several Smogon sets. Wonder why early gen 5 ttar started to run ice bean and fire blast? Its good but not powerful or versatile enough to be banned.
 

Aankhein

I'm proud of making bad decisions
I’d like to point out that Deoxys isn’t guaranteed to get full hazards or full screens at all. Sure, it has the potential to get full screens or hazards – but that is also up to the user of Deoxys to properly predict moves (whether to Taunt/Magic Mirror or not, etc).


I hope I don’t get warned for this, but I guess I could list some of the various ways to usually come out on top against Deoxys-S leads:

- Any Choice Scarfed Pokemon with base 105 Speed or higher and access to trick/switcheroo (Gengar, Starmie, Alakazam, and Azelf come to mind). These aren’t only useful for Deoxys either, as they could all serve as solid revenge killers or cripple walls. All of these Pokemon can also run other viable sets to threaten other Pokemon/hamper Deoxys. Scarf Terrakion can also make sure Deoxys gets one support up (but of course must be cautious of attacks). Scarf Meinshoa can U-turn out to a priority user or whatever.
- Jirachi – This guy is bad news for any Deoxys-S since there are so many variants of Jirachi. Jirachi has access to U-turn, and Trick especially.
- Politoed – Has access to powerful boosted Water attacks and Encore. Deoxys must choose carefully when going against this. An added bonus is Perish Song, which can kill any momentum Deoxys suicide leads establish on Heavy Offense teams.
- CB Scizor + Rotom-W Combo. – Volt switch + CB Bullet Punch is a guaranteed KO on hazards Deoxys (meaning only one layer of hazards). The screener version has, if it uses Light Screen on Rotom-W, has only a 1% or so chance of KOing if Standard Scarf Rotom is used, but also runs the risk of being tricked (once again, a gamble must be made). Specs Rotom-W guarantees a combination KO though.
- Dragonite – Mixed Dragonite guarantees only one support for Deoxys. (Draco Meteor does 59.75%-70.12% AFTER Light Screen, while a follow-up Extreme Speed does 44.81% - 53.11%)…. Not to mention the fact that a Deoxys user has to choose between stopping a potential DD setup and getting its own hazards up.
-Espeon can render the hazards Deoxys useless, and setup on the dual screener variant.

*Note: All of these sets are not niche sets made specificallyto counter Deoxys-S. I'm pretty sure they're all on Smogon's strategy dex. They all can be used effectively in OU.

Of course, there are other ways/tactics, but I don’t have all day lol.


Deoxys, while good at what it does, is not an “easy win” or an guarantees. Of course, it will have its way against those who do not adapt to the metagame and/or do not implement any ingenuity in transforming Deoxys-S from guaranteed support to potentially near dead weight. Those who use Deoxys sacrifice an entire team slot – a very important team slot – just so that they may or may not get some field support. Those who use Deoxys must also make gambles themselves when going up against certain foes or threats.
 

Pocket

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Yea, Zarco & Aankhein both hit the nail on the head. Deoxys-S doesn't "guarantee" SR+Spikes or Dual Screens up against a well-prepared team. There are plenty of OU and viable answers to Deoxys-S. You don't need a counter tailored to beat Deoxys-S to deal with it, unlike the excessive preparation required to deal with Excadrill and even Thundurus. Deoxys-S is a nice touch in this metagame, providing HO a suitable supporter that fits th playstyle best. However, whoever uses Deo-S must actually do work / some thinking to provide the proper support.

I also agree with iSkittles reasoning. It seems like people do not want to be inconvenienced in dealing with this threat, which only takes a minor effort to do so. Lot of pro-Uber camp players illustrate a scenario where Deoxys-S user outplays the non Deo-S user. However, there are many scenarios where a non-Deo-S singlehandedly beats a Deo-S user. These prediction arguments are not good ways to argue the brokenness of Pokemon, since it goes either way. I've been wrecking Deo-S with my HO team; Deo-S is not auto-win / a clutch for bad players to beat better players. It still requires prediction and skills to effectively bring out Deo-S's potential.

I believe that currently the various playstyles that exists are relatively balanced; the boom in HO teams is just a knee-jerk reaction of most players after Excadrill left the scene. The loss of Excadrill made HO teams at an equal standing against Sand Teams, but it hasn't made HO teams overwhelmingly powerful. To me, it's the most straightforward and predictable strategy to beat.
 
I’d like to point out that Deoxys isn’t guaranteed to get full hazards or full screens at all. Sure, it has the potential to get full screens or hazards – but that is also up to the user of Deoxys to properly predict moves (whether to Taunt/Magic Mirror or not, etc).
Prediction...I never use this in an argument because prediction goes both ways. You can predict your opponent will use Taunt, but I can then predict that and just do something else. Using prediction in an argument is just bad, no offense.



I hope I don’t get warned for this, but I guess I could list some of the various ways to usually come out on top against Deoxys-S leads:

- Any Choice Scarfed Pokemon with base 105 Speed or higher and access to trick/switcheroo (Gengar, Starmie, Alakazam, and Azelf come to mind). These aren’t only useful for Deoxys either, as they could all serve as solid revenge killers or cripple walls. All of these Pokemon can also run other viable sets to threaten other Pokemon/hamper Deoxys. Scarf Terrakion can also make sure Deoxys gets one support up (but of course must be cautious of attacks). Scarf Meinshoa can U-turn out to a priority user or whatever.
- Jirachi – This guy is bad news for any Deoxys-S since there are so many variants of Jirachi. Jirachi has access to U-turn, and Trick especially.
- Politoed – Has access to powerful boosted Water attacks and Encore. Deoxys must choose carefully when going against this. An added bonus is Perish Song, which can kill any momentum Deoxys suicide leads establish on Heavy Offense teams.
- CB Scizor + Rotom-W Combo. – Volt switch + CB Bullet Punch is a guaranteed KO on hazards Deoxys (meaning only one layer of hazards). The screener version has, if it uses Light Screen on Rotom-W, has only a 1% or so chance of KOing if Standard Scarf Rotom is used, but also runs the risk of being tricked (once again, a gamble must be made). Specs Rotom-W guarantees a combination KO though.
- Dragonite – Mixed Dragonite guarantees only one support for Deoxys. (Draco Meteor does 59.75%-70.12% AFTER Light Screen, while a follow-up Extreme Speed does 44.81% - 53.11%)…. Not to mention the fact that a Deoxys user has to choose between stopping a potential DD setup and getting its own hazards up.
-Espeon can render the hazards Deoxys useless, and setup on the dual screener variant.

*Note: All of these sets are not niche sets meant to counter Deoxys-S. I'm pretty sure they're all on Smogon's strategy dex. They all can be used effectively in OU.

Of course, there are other ways/tactics, but I don’t have all day lol.
- Of those mentioned, only Terrakion is commonly seen while IMO, Scarf Gengar/Starmie is just a waste since they rely on their coverage to be good.

- The most common set is the Sp.Def set and the Rain abuser. Every other set should just be ignored unless it becomes standard. Regardless, Jirachi is still not stopping Screens or Hazards.
And before you say anything, both(or all three) of Deoxys' sets are commonly used and they're all very versatile, so you could mix Hazards + Screens, Hazards + Attacker, etc.

- The powerful water attack is all fine and dandy, but even Max Sp.Attack Specs Toed in the Rain only has a 2.56% chance to OHKO Deoxys behind Light Screen...which is the same as CB T-tar btw.
Encore would be annoying, but it just turns into another prediction war. If I Taunt you...well, you're screwed and if you Encore me, I still have a LS up/hazards and Deo essentially lost nothing except a bit of momentum which will be quickly regained because Politoed isn't exactly hard to force out. Perish Song might be good though, but then again, Taunt is there; so it turns into a big prediction war.

- BOOM! LO Psycho Boost/HP Fire :P
Anyway, this could actually work, but then you're risking two pokemon to just beat one.

- Deoxys shouldn't care at all about Dnite setting up a single DD because after Reflect, he's essentially at -1. And why would you use MixNite? It's already been stated that MixMence is just way better because MixNite gets rid of its only advantages as soon as it attacks a single time.
Something else to note is that your calc is with a Max Sp.Attack Dragonite, which is kinda sad <,<

- Against Espeon...my Deoxys sets up Dual Screens...and proceeds to set up in your face as Espeon is pretty much at +0 after two CMs.
Anyway, who even uses CM Espeon outside of Baton Pass? o.o


Deoxys, while good at what it does, is not an “easy win” or an guarantees. Of course, it will have its way against those who do not adapt to the metagame and/or do not implement any ingenuity in transforming Deoxys-S from guaranteed support to potentially near dead weight. Those who use Deoxys sacrifice an entire team slot – a very important team slot – just so that they may or may not get some field support. Those who use Deoxys must also make gambles themselves when going up against certain foes or threats.

No one says it guarantees a win. We're saying it guarantees offensive momentum. I'd gladly start a battle at 5-6 if it means all my pokemon are at +2 Defenses and possibly having hazards too.


@ Pocket/iSkittles:

It's not that we can't adapt(hell, I was Pro-OU for Blaziken at first <,<), it's that it's just unhealthy for the metagame.
Does ANYONE like to start out at a disadvantage just because they don't carry *insert niche counter here*?
 

alexwolf

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Just posting ot say that Deoxys-S will never get ohkoed from Specs Hydro Pump from Politoed.
I mentioned that because kefka said that Politoed has a 2,56% chance of ohkoing.
Here is the exact amount : 459 Atk vs 432 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 205 - 243 (67.43% - 79.93%)

Also Kefka pls stop saying again and again that Mixmence's superiority to Mixnite is a fact because it isn't.Just because you think it is doesn't mean you can state it as a fact especoally when people have given you enough proofs to show you that Mixnite is not outclassed.
 

Aankhein

I'm proud of making bad decisions
Prediction...I never use this in an argument because prediction goes both ways. You can predict your opponent will use Taunt, but I can then predict that and just do something else. Using prediction in an argument is just bad, no offense.



- Of those mentioned, only Terrakion is commonly seen while IMO, Scarf Gengar/Starmie is just a waste since they rely on their coverage to be good.

- The most common set is the Sp.Def set and the Rain abuser. Every other set should just be ignored unless it becomes standard. Regardless, Jirachi is still not stopping Screens or Hazards.
And before you say anything, both(or all three) of Deoxys' sets are commonly used and they're all very versatile, so you could mix Hazards + Screens, Hazards + Attacker, etc.

- The powerful water attack is all fine and dandy, but even Max Sp.Attack Specs Toed in the Rain only has a 2.56% chance to OHKO Deoxys behind Light Screen...which is the same as CB T-tar btw.
Encore would be annoying, but it just turns into another prediction war. If I Taunt you...well, you're screwed and if you Encore me, I still have a LS up/hazards and Deo essentially lost nothing except a bit of momentum which will be quickly regained because Politoed isn't exactly hard to force out. Perish Song might be good though, but then again, Taunt is there; so it turns into a big prediction war.

- BOOM! LO Psycho Boost/HP Fire :P
Anyway, this could actually work, but then you're risking two pokemon to just beat one.

- Deoxys shouldn't care at all about Dnite setting up a single DD because after Reflect, he's essentially at -1. And why would you use MixNite? It's already been stated that MixMence is just way better because MixNite gets rid of its only advantages as soon as it attacks a single time.
Something else to note is that your calc is with a Max Sp.Attack Dragonite, which is kinda sad <,<

- Against Espeon...my Deoxys sets up Dual Screens...and proceeds to set up in your face as Espeon is pretty much at +0 after two CMs.
Anyway, who even uses CM Espeon outside of Baton Pass? o.o





No one says it guarantees a win. We're saying it guarantees offensive momentum. I'd gladly start a battle at 5-6 if it means all my pokemon are at +2 Defenses and possibly having hazards too.


@ Pocket/iSkittles:

It's not that we can't adapt(hell, I was Pro-OU for Blaziken at first <,<), it's that it's just unhealthy for the metagame.
Does ANYONE like to start out at a disadvantage just because they don't carry *insert niche counter here*?
I hate to break it to you, but you kind of supported the argument that it shouldn't be banned lol.

The only reason I brought up prediction is precisely for the reason you brought up - it goes both ways. I mentioned in my post that both the Deoxys user and the opponent are at risk - it isn't as if Deoxys automatically will get massive support down like may people are saying. This means Deoxys isn't guaranteed to do anything.....especially of the sort some of you are mentioning (3 layers of hazards, Dual Screens + hazard, what have you). It could go either way, especially when it comes down to one of those prediction wars you mentioned.

As for your comments regarding how those Pokemon I listed should be ignored....why should they? Isn't the whole idea of success in the metagame to adapt to new factors of the metgame rather than stick with potentially archaic "standards" for the sake of them being standard? Whose fault is it if a player chooses to ignore certain sets - sets that are completely viable, albeit not as common as your "standards" - in the face of a changing metagame?

You are thinking quite narrowly regarding your comments shooting down some of the various suggestions.

Like I said, the prediction games - the ones you yourself acknowledged - could easily go either ways.
 
I hate to break it to you, but you kind of supported the argument that it shouldn't be banned lol.

The only reason I brought up prediction is precisely for the reason you brought up - it goes both ways. I mentioned in my post that both the Deoxys user and the opponent are at risk - it isn't as if Deoxys automatically will get massive support down like may people are saying. This means Deoxys isn't guaranteed to do anything.....especially of the sort some of you are mentioning (3 layers of hazards, Dual Screens + hazard, what have you). It could go either way, especially when it comes down to one of those prediction wars you mentioned.

As for your comments regarding how those Pokemon I listed should be ignored....why should they? Isn't the whole idea of success in the metagame to adapt to new factors of the metgame rather than stick with potentially archaic "standards" for the sake of them being standard? Whose fault is it if a player chooses to ignore certain sets - sets that are completely viable, albeit not as common as your "standards" - in the face of a changing metagame?

You are thinking quite narrowly regarding your comments shooting down some of the various suggestions.

Like I said, the prediction games - the ones you yourself acknowledged - could easily go either ways.
I think you're reading it to suit your own needs.

"Oh, I can just Encore it."

That is just very reliant on prediction.
It doesn't even stop it. In fact, NOTHING you posted stops it, none of it.

The very fact that you have to rely on prediction to try stop it is the whole point. If you predict incorrectly, you're screwed, and if you predict correctly, you're still screwed because Deo still did whatever it felt like.

Another fact: If's it's not standard, we do NOT consider it. No one cares if Normal Gem ES Dragonite can beat it(it probably can't, but that's not the point), it's not standard and it's out-classed.
 
I like the idea of 105+speed Choice Scarfers (I saw Zoroark which is always awesome for awful mindgames for the opponent because Zoroark can ohko Deoxys first but what if it's not Zoroark and something Deoxys would normally set up on, etc) but the reason Starmie/Gengar/Alakazam are not scarfed is because you get Pursuit Quandried by things like Scizor and Tyranitar because you'll get locked in on a move that doesn't fit a lot of the time (and even if they get tricked, they still nail you but will despise it) and you get Pursuited to death and you lost your valuable speedster. Also, they really love being able to switch moves for coverage purposes.

I saw the Rotom+Scizor combination and I'd just like to say that unless Rotom uses Trick, it will not beat Dual Screen Deoxys and will quite likely get Reflect/Light Screen/Stealth Rock up if you don't Trick it. Choice Scarf Rotom doesn't have a chance outside Trick and Choice Specs Rotom Volt Switch is NOT guaranteed if it invests Def evs. The only reason for max speed is to tie with Deoxys-S and if you're not using it as an attacker that actually does something, I don't see why it's necessary since it'll outrun essentially everything anyways. A spread of 252 hp/120 Def/40 SDef/96Spd for example reaches 462 to outspeed Ninjask and almost always lives through this combination always. Not to mention the risk of getting Psycho Boosted/HP Fired.

I am not exactly sure how Espeon sets up on Dual Screen Deoxys other than leveling the playing field for having screens on both sides.

Tyranitar needs to run Choice Band now to 2 hit ko you as well since Sand won't kill you the second round so you have time to Stealth Rock as well.
 

Pocket

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Kefka I wouldn't consider Scizor / Rotom-W, Jirachi, Rapid Spinners, Scarf Gengar / Latios / Terrakion, etc a niche counter. They do more than gaining an upper hand against Deoxys-S leads (ie gaining momentum for the team, Wish / paralysis support, spinning hazards laid by other Spikers, revenge-killing). No offense, but I see these mons more often than "Psycho Boost / HP Fire" Deoxys-S. Following with what you said, we shouldn't even be considering HP Fire / Psychoboost / etc Deoxys-S, since it's a niche mon (more niche than what was suggested above), and it's not standard.
 

Aankhein

I'm proud of making bad decisions
I think you're reading it to suit your own needs.

"Oh, I can just Encore it."

That is just very reliant on prediction.
It doesn't even stop it. In fact, NOTHING you posted stops it, none of it.

The very fact that you have to rely on prediction to try stop it is the whole point. If you predict incorrectly, you're screwed, and if you predict correctly, you're still screwed because Deo still did whatever it felt like.

Another fact: If's it's not standard, we do NOT consider it. No one cares if Normal Gem ES Dragonite can beat it(it probably can't, but that's not the point), it's not standard and it's out-classed.
Uhhh, I dont think I posted anything quite unreasonable regarding the sets. I admit that a couple of them, namely scarf Alakazam and Gengar, are not recommended on Smogon's site lol. However all of the others should not be disregarded so easily.

And can't either CM Espeon or Dual Screen Espeon work? Espeon also gets tools such as yawn and roar to really kill any momentum a screener Deoxys works for.

And is mixed Dragonite really outclassed as a lead in all ways? The keys here are Multi Scale and Extreme Speed, both of which allow Dragonite to handle certain leads, such as Deoxys-S (Mixed Salamence cannot do that due to lack of Extreme Speed).

Scarfed Pokemon such as Terrakion, Meinshao, and Starmie, I believe should be counted too as they are certainly viable according to Smogon.
A Deoxys that gets tricked with a scarf will what? Screen twice in a row? Lay down SR twice in a row?

Edit: Wow, Pocket explained it better lol.
 
Setting up guranteed screens and setting up screens some times or most of the times makes a huge difference.
And stop telling me that while Deoxys-S is the best screener there are other screeners too.
That can be said for every attacker or wall.Ok we banned a broken offensive pokemon but there are others too.
Stop simply mentioning that there are other screeners.As you said yourself Deoxys-S is the best and this is what matters.
If you continue to think that if Deoxys-S wasn't around then another screener would just take its place then i seriously don't have much else to say to you.
Also when you talked about the other screeners you wrote that:''Except for the occasional scarfer it will get up 2 screens most of the time''

What matters is that these scarfers are occasional as you said and are solutions to a problem.But there are solutions!
With Deoxys-S these solutions are much fewer.Don't you see it?
You say that many things can stop Deoxys-S without fearing its coverage.Except that while they try to kill him he sets up both screens and even SR occasionaly.turning them into sitting ducks.
So what if he doesn't kill them,the sweepers of the team will.
Also you say that most leads don't run Taunt.First of all there is no such thing as a lead anymore.You put your lead according to the opponent's team.
And no matter how rare Taunt is,you always have the choice of putting a fast taunter to prevent such strategies.Except Deoxys-S of 'course!

The difference between Uxie and Deoxys-S,as screeners,are the follwoing(last time that i mention them it is getting tiring really):
-Deoxys-S cannot get Taunted except from the MH users
-Deoxys-S cannot get setup on
-Deoxys-S has much bigger unpredictability than Uxie
-Deoxys-S can avoid getting ohkoed or 2hkoed by many pokes that Uxie fails because he can put up a screen always first!
For example the standart DS Uxie for OU gets 2hkoed and outsped by specs Latios and specs Politoed 100% of the time and thus only gets 1 screen.But Deoxys-S always survives the first hit and lives to put the second screen or SR.

Now do you get the big differences or not yet?
If you haven't, go use dual screens Deoxys-s. The screens are NOT guaranteed most of the time. If deo can get "guaranteed" (bullshit) screens and uxie can get screens up most of the time, they are very very similar. This does not justify an uber. There is a difference between Blaziken speed boost to dd gyara (big difference) and deo and uxie as screeners (little difference)

Most leads don't have taunt. Uxie can not be setup on (memento!!!!1) uxie is predictable? have you seen an uxie lately. uxie can setup on CB scizor and Cb tar. uxie can take take attacks from most mons faster than it with ease. It beats specs politoed and Latios. run the calcs! You are actually proving yourself wrong! And you ignore everything I post.

I made a few pages back regarding countering hazards and life orb deoxys-s using ferrothorn or forretress but I couldn't justify any way of reliably beating the dual screens. I still stated that I'd like to see it as OU. However, due to overwhelming evidence supplied by battlers much better than I, I change my position. When people are discussing things like CB Tyranitar just to beat Deoxys-S (rarely, I must say), things are going wrong. Way wrong. Deoxys-S for Uber.
I literally listed 4 mons that are very normal (scizor, reuniclus, latios) that can limit deo to 1-2 hazards. Is using 1 entire team slot for 2 hazards uber? Ban forry, ban ferrothorn, ban skarmory, ect. You are basically getting 1-2 hazards and starting the game 5-6. How is this an unfair advantage?

And before you say anything, both(or all three) of Deoxys' sets are commonly used and they're all very versatile, so you could mix Hazards + Screens, Hazards + Attacker, etc.
No you can't run SR and spikes on the LO set and you won't get more than 1 hazard most of the time. dual screens should be DS / taunt / SR otherwise it isn't effective. I've tested it, unlike most of this thread.

Just posting ot say that Deoxys-S will never get ohkoed from Specs Hydro Pump from Politoed.
I mentioned that because kefka said that Politoed has a 2,56% chance of ohkoing.
Here is the exact amount : 459 Atk vs 432 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 205 - 243 (67.43% - 79.93%)
ok you don't even gets SR up. and you lost an ENTIRE TEAMSLOT for screens. It's fair.

There are plenty of normal mons that can take on all deoxys without being afraid of any of its moves

sacrificing a team slot for 1-2 hazards is not giving you are ridiculous advantage and is really risked (rapid spinners like starmie who are almost impossible to block)

there are other screeners who can setup almost as good as deo, are they uber too?
 

complete legitimacy

is it cold in the water?
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
^Then you're not using Deoxys correctly if you can't get up screens 95% of the time. Deoxys is unquestionably better than any other Dual Screener. There is also the fact that Deoxys isn't limited to just screening.

I have not been theorymonning on any of my posts. I have used Deoxys in more than one way, in more ways than the standard sets even. I have even tried a Taunt / Recover / Psycho Shift / Cosmic Power set @ Flame Orb. It's not really effective, but it throws certain teams off guard.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
You think throwing a choice scarf on something base 105 or higher is a good idea? Thats ridiculous. Apparently you don't know centralization when you see it. If Palkia is unbanned tomorrow, youll try to convince me that because ferrothorn is a 'counter,' and latios outspeeds it that its fine in OU.

Go ahead scarf that gengar, it sucks. Its a horrible scarf pokemon. Weak to Pursuit, misses KOs, all it has is trick (defeats the purpose if you trick deoxys-s). Go ahead scarf latios, its weak to pursuit, it misses kos, its ridiculous set up fodder, all it has is trick. Scarf terrakion? Cant Ohko deoxy-s, if you use x-scissor I survive and I just switch out to any of the 4 or 5 pokemon on my team that resist bug while i set up a layer or reflect. Are there any others? Come at me, Im not scared.

It doesn't matter though, and Im going to make this as clear as possible. If you need to use a choice item, be it band or scarf or specs, to have any chance of not being screwed by a pokemon, that pokemon is too good for OU. How do you expect stall to exist as a team style if it has to run a choice pokemon? Choice pokemon suck on stall teams. You guys dont get it, you just don't see the lengths you go to deal with one pokemon. For the record, using a choice pokemon in and of itself, makes it certain that you WONT have a 100% chance of beating Deoxys-e. Deoxys-e isn't one pokemon, it has 5 other pokemon it can switch out to and resist your choiced attacks. And what if I don't use Deoxys-S, your 'ways of dealing with Deoxys-S' are useless. Youre basically down 6-5 with that scarf gengar which loses to every single pokemon on rain stall.

Deoxys-e is beating you so hard that you don't even notice it. Open your eyes. All your ways of beating Deoxy-e involve conceding momentum to your opponent or else shitty pokemon. At a certain point, it isn't even worth it to TRY to beat Deoxys-S, you have a better chance trying to speed tie with your own deoxys-e.

Listen, I know intimately how good Deoxys-S is. I know that the idea of trying to run offense with Azelf or Espeon is scary and seems like a challenge, but I assure you that its for the good of the metagame. Don't kid yourself, Azelf and Espeon aren't even close to being as good as Deoxys-S, but Offense will still be fine, Excadrill will still be banned, team preview will still be a massive advantage. It might be a challenge, but I'd rather be challenged in a good metagame than have 75% of my matches be mirror matches (thats a bad metagame imo).
 
It doesn't matter though, and Im going to make this as clear as possible. If you need to use a choice item, be it band or scarf or specs, to have any chance of not being screwed by a pokemon, that pokemon is too good for OU. How do you expect stall to exist as a team style if it has to run a choice pokemon? Choice pokemon suck on stall teams. You guys dont get it, you just don't see the lengths you go to deal with one pokemon. For the record, using a choice pokemon in and of itself, makes it certain that you WONT have a 100% chance of beating Deoxys-e. Deoxys-e isn't one pokemon, it has 5 other pokemon it can switch out to and resist your choiced attacks. And what if I don't use Deoxys-S, your 'ways of dealing with Deoxys-S' are useless. Youre basically down 6-5 with that scarf gengar which loses to every single pokemon on rain stall.
Except that you don't. There are plenty of things that can take deoxys on and limit its hazards that don't need that. I've listed some of the ones i've used, but there are plenty more. I'd argue against your bolded statement too but that is irrelevant.

Deoxys-e is beating you so hard that you don't even notice it. Open your eyes. All your ways of beating Deoxy-e involve conceding momentum to your opponent or else shitty pokemon. At a certain point, it isn't even worth it to TRY to beat Deoxys-S, you have a better chance trying to speed tie with your own deoxys-e.
Not really. I can dispatch most of them by bringing in a deadly sweeper like Reuniclus or Dragonite and forcing them to taunt while I don't really fear their moves, limiting their hazards. In the end they get a hazard or two for a mon. I can even spin against things like Gengar easily with starmie. I would run these mons anyway, it's just a question of using them well. Sacrifices momentum? There are numerous things that do that, it's the point of running and sacrificing a teamslot.

Listen, I know intimately how good Deoxys-S is. I know that the idea of trying to run offense with Azelf or Espeon is scary and seems like a challenge, but I assure you that its for the good of the metagame. Don't kid yourself, Azelf and Espeon aren't even close to being as good as Deoxys-S, but Offense will still be fine, Excadrill will still be banned, team preview will still be a massive advantage. It might be a challenge, but I'd rather be challenged in a good metagame than have 75% of my matches be mirror matches (thats a bad metagame imo).
I've used all three of those plus Latios and they work fine, if not even better now that some people are actually getting better strategies against deoxys. They don't have to be mirror matches, I blame the people not deoxys' ability.
 
You think throwing a choice scarf on something base 105 or higher is a good idea? Thats ridiculous. Apparently you don't know centralization when you see it. If Palkia is unbanned tomorrow, youll try to convince me that because ferrothorn is a 'counter,' and latios outspeeds it that its fine in OU.

Go ahead scarf that gengar, it sucks. Its a horrible scarf pokemon. Weak to Pursuit, misses KOs, all it has is trick (defeats the purpose if you trick deoxys-s). Go ahead scarf latios, its weak to pursuit, it misses kos, its ridiculous set up fodder, all it has is trick. Scarf terrakion? Cant Ohko deoxy-s, if you use x-scissor I survive and I just switch out to any of the 4 or 5 pokemon on my team that resist bug while i set up a layer or reflect. Are there any others? Come at me, Im not scared.

It doesn't matter though, and Im going to make this as clear as possible. If you need to use a choice item, be it band or scarf or specs, to have any chance of not being screwed by a pokemon, that pokemon is too good for OU. How do you expect stall to exist as a team style if it has to run a choice pokemon? Choice pokemon suck on stall teams. You guys dont get it, you just don't see the lengths you go to deal with one pokemon. For the record, using a choice pokemon in and of itself, makes it certain that you WONT have a 100% chance of beating Deoxys-e. Deoxys-e isn't one pokemon, it has 5 other pokemon it can switch out to and resist your choiced attacks. And what if I don't use Deoxys-S, your 'ways of dealing with Deoxys-S' are useless. Youre basically down 6-5 with that scarf gengar which loses to every single pokemon on rain stall.

Deoxys-e is beating you so hard that you don't even notice it. Open your eyes. All your ways of beating Deoxy-e involve conceding momentum to your opponent or else shitty pokemon. At a certain point, it isn't even worth it to TRY to beat Deoxys-S, you have a better chance trying to speed tie with your own deoxys-e.

Listen, I know intimately how good Deoxys-S is. I know that the idea of trying to run offense with Azelf or Espeon is scary and seems like a challenge, but I assure you that its for the good of the metagame. Don't kid yourself, Azelf and Espeon aren't even close to being as good as Deoxys-S, but Offense will still be fine, Excadrill will still be banned, team preview will still be a massive advantage. It might be a challenge, but I'd rather be challenged in a good metagame than have 75% of my matches be mirror matches (thats a bad metagame imo).
Way wrong comparison since Deoxys-S and Palkia are so far different it's ridiculous and nobody would ever think Palkia is good for OU (and if they do they're stupid), and Ferrothorn does not counter since Palkia can carry Fire Blast or Focus Punch but never mind that. Choice Scarf Palkia alone would devestate OU, let alone the other sets. But you're using it as an ab reductio (although not a good one since you can't even compare).

Still I agree with the other parts (except for the bolded part) and the fact that Dual Screen Deoxys doesn't get ohkoed by any of the faster Choice Scarfers (barring Gengar and Zoroark and with Special defense evs they still might not ohko!) and allows those pokes to be set up upon is tough. It would prevent getting a second screen but they'll have gotten at least one up and those are a few worst cases for Dual Screen Deoxys-S (except for Mienshao+Scizor U-Turns). That's just incredible.
 

Aankhein

I'm proud of making bad decisions
You think throwing a choice scarf on something base 105 or higher is a good idea? Thats ridiculous. Apparently you don't know centralization when you see it. If Palkia is unbanned tomorrow, youll try to convince me that because ferrothorn is a 'counter,' and latios outspeeds it that its fine in OU.

Go ahead scarf that gengar, it sucks. Its a horrible scarf pokemon. Weak to Pursuit, misses KOs, all it has is trick (defeats the purpose if you trick deoxys-s). Go ahead scarf latios, its weak to pursuit, it misses kos, its ridiculous set up fodder, all it has is trick. Scarf terrakion? Cant Ohko deoxy-s, if you use x-scissor I survive and I just switch out to any of the 4 or 5 pokemon on my team that resist bug while i set up a layer or reflect. Are there any others? Come at me, Im not scared.

It doesn't matter though, and Im going to make this as clear as possible. If you need to use a choice item, be it band or scarf or specs, to have any chance of not being screwed by a pokemon, that pokemon is too good for OU. How do you expect stall to exist as a team style if it has to run a choice pokemon? Choice pokemon suck on stall teams. You guys dont get it, you just don't see the lengths you go to deal with one pokemon. For the record, using a choice pokemon in and of itself, makes it certain that you WONT have a 100% chance of beating Deoxys-e. Deoxys-e isn't one pokemon, it has 5 other pokemon it can switch out to and resist your choiced attacks. And what if I don't use Deoxys-S, your 'ways of dealing with Deoxys-S' are useless. Youre basically down 6-5 with that scarf gengar which loses to every single pokemon on rain stall.

Deoxys-e is beating you so hard that you don't even notice it. Open your eyes. All your ways of beating Deoxy-e involve conceding momentum to your opponent or else shitty pokemon. At a certain point, it isn't even worth it to TRY to beat Deoxys-S, you have a better chance trying to speed tie with your own deoxys-e.

Listen, I know intimately how good Deoxys-S is. I know that the idea of trying to run offense with Azelf or Espeon is scary and seems like a challenge, but I assure you that its for the good of the metagame. Don't kid yourself, Azelf and Espeon aren't even close to being as good as Deoxys-S, but Offense will still be fine, Excadrill will still be banned, team preview will still be a massive advantage. It might be a challenge, but I'd rather be challenged in a good metagame than have 75% of my matches be mirror matches (thats a bad metagame imo).
Well, among many other things, you’re only addressing one mentioned method of dealing with Deoxys-S (scarfed Pokes). Even so, by the way, the scarf methods still prevent Deoxys from doing its complete job. You also mention that some scarfed Pokemon are quite useless/setup fodder – can’t the same be said about Deoxys in various instances? But, like I said, there are other tactics/Pokemon out there capable of preventing you from “getting screwed by that pokemon”.

And if you want to bring team play into the picture (when you mentioned how Deoxys can switch out ect.), then of course, a well built team can also, as a unit, render Deoxys’ efforts near useless easily. I was just pointing out some one-on-one matchups.

Also, since when is Deoxys beating everyone so hard? I personally don’t have any problems against it (I know this isn’t really evidence). I also never run Deoxys myself lol. I don’t even see Deoxys in anywhere near 75% of my matches…

I do agree, however, that Offense will still be completely fine without it. But, that is irrelevant.
 
How much does max attack CB Tyranitars Crunch do to Deoxys S behind a Reflect?
And for the record, max attack CB Crawdaunts Adaptability Crunch, also behind Reflect?
 

alexwolf

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This is the amount that Crunch does :
606 Atk vs 432 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 242 - 288 (79.61% - 94.74%)

Sry but i am not going to bother with irrelevant calcs(i am saying this for CB Crawdant).
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Well, among many other things, you’re only addressing one mentioned method of dealing with Deoxys-S (scarfed Pokes). Even so, by the way, the scarf methods still prevent Deoxys from doing its complete job. You also mention that some scarfed Pokemon are quite useless/setup fodder – can’t the same be said about Deoxys in various instances?Nope, Deoxys-s is never set up fodder. But, like I said, there are other tactics/Pokemon out there capable of preventing you from “getting screwed by that pokemon”.
Not any good ones, not anything thats more effective than running your own deoxys-S.
And if you want to bring team play into the picture (when you mentioned how Deoxys can switch out ect.), then of course, a well built team can also, as a unit, render Deoxys’ efforts near useless easily. I was just pointing out some one-on-one matchups.
Empty platitude is empty.
Also, since when is Deoxys beating everyone so hard? I personally don’t have any problems against it (I know this isn’t really evidence). I also never run Deoxys myself lol. I don’t even see Deoxys in anywhere near 75% of my matches…
Lol, and you also think normal gem dragonite is a viable reasonable pokemon. Deoxys-S has been murder since Excadrill was banned.

I do agree, however, that Offense will still be completely fine without it. But, that is irrelevant.
 
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