Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

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Are there any switchins to DM Latios, on the second DM, though? Not only will Latios be weakened, Deoxys will be alive to set up hazards later (barely, but still alive).

I give it to you that Scarf DM Latios is good, but it's still not a complete counter. Close, but still, it's the only one I've heard of that sounds half-plausible, and if everyone needs to pack DM Scarf Latios, then we have a problem.

Edit: Cloverleaf and Lee have convinced me that DM Latios is not good, as was my suspicions, though it's nice to see some people back that up, as I wasn't sure. Now, I know Latios does NOT work, so thus, I still say...

Über!
 
Pokemon isn't a one-on-one game and your example neglects the fact that:

assuming Scarf Latios; you damage Deoxys while he sets up a layer of hazards then switches to something to absorb and capitalise on the -2 Draco Meteor, coming back in later to lay another hazard.

assuming Specs Latios; hazard Deoxys commonly carries Sash in which case he gets two layers of hazards and something gets to come into capitalise on your -4 Latios. Or maybe he's a different set and uses Light Screen, then Stealth Rock, and then sends out something to setup on your -4 Latios with screen support and entry hazards in place.

Those examples aren't idealistic or prediction-dependant - you're just simply using the right move. Deoxys is a pain in the arse because you can go out of your way to beat a particular set but then you get trashed by the other. An example would be using Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch Metagross to limit Deoxys to just one layer of hazards only to run into the Dual Screen set which throws up Reflect and proceeds to have it's way with you. Maybe you use CB Tyranitar to limit him to one layer of hazards and have a small chance of OHKOing through Reflect after SS damage, only to get nailed by Superpower.

No matter what I'm using I never feel 'confident' against Deoxys-S because I know if it's not the set that I'm banking on then I'm in a very, very bad situation because, quite fittingly for something with 180 Spe, Deoxys can change the tide of a battle very fast by promoting and enabling three of the most broken and unenjoyable (for me) aspects of BW. Those being:

- the complete lack of balance between hazard layers and Rapid Spinners. The hazard layers are often some of the best Pokemon on the game whereas the Spinners generally suck and need to be shoehorned onto a team.
- ridiculous shit like SmashPass and all the accompanying buffs to Baton Pass chains which were already a pain in the arse for standard teams to play against.
- all of the superpowerful boosters that only need one turn to win a match.

No other Pokemon makes these problems as apparent as Deoxys-S.
 
AS someone who's used Scarf DM Latios since the start of this round it is by no means a great counter to Deo as the second you DM, they get a free switch to soething like Lucario and you're suddenly in a terrible position. Its even worse if they get up a screen or two before hand.
 
Lee said:
Pokemon isn't a one-on-one game and your example neglects the fact that:

assuming Scarf Latios; you damage Deoxys while he sets up a layer of hazards then switches to something to absorb and capitalise on the -2 Draco Meteor, coming back in later to lay another hazard.

assuming Specs Latios; hazard Deoxys commonly carries Sash in which case he gets two layers of hazards and something gets to come into capitalise on your -4 Latios. Or maybe he's a different set and uses Light Screen, then Stealth Rock, and then sends out something to setup on your -4 Latios with screen support and entry hazards in place.

Those examples aren't idealistic or prediction-dependant - you're just simply using the right move. Deoxys is a pain in the arse because you can go out of your way to beat a particular set but then you get trashed by the other. An example would be using Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch Metagross to limit Deoxys to just one layer of hazards only to run into the Dual Screen set which throws up Reflect and proceeds to have it's way with you. Maybe you use CB Tyranitar to limit him to one layer of hazards and have a small chance of OHKOing through Reflect after SS damage, only to get nailed by Superpower.

No matter what I'm using I never feel 'confident' against Deoxys-S because I know if it's not the set that I'm banking on then I'm in a very, very bad situation because, quite fittingly for something with 180 Spe, Deoxys can change the tide of a battle very fast by promoting and enabling three of the most broken and unenjoyable (for me) aspects of BW. Those being:

- the complete lack of balance between hazard layers and Rapid Spinners. The hazard layers are often some of the best Pokemon on the game whereas the Spinners generally suck and need to be shoehorned onto a team.
- ridiculous shit like SmashPass and all the accompanying buffs to Baton Pass chains which were already a pain in the arse for standard teams to play against.
- all of the superpowerful boosters that only need one turn to win a match.

No other Pokemon makes these problems as apparent as Deoxys-S.
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Just posting to say that the possibility of BandTar ohkoing Deoxys-S behind Reflect and after SS damage is so small that it practically never gets ohkoed.
2,56% is the chance of Deoxys-S being ohkoed with the above factors that i mentioned.
 
So a small chance then, right?

A better example might been CB Hera and Psycho Boost but it wouldn't have worked as well against the hazards set.
 
Waterwarrior, I'm still not sure if I get what you mean. However, I will try to state my opinion, to the best of my understanding of your post. What you're saying, is that just because Eggbert's set does something, doesn't make it broken. Well, then I agree that custom sets don't make it broken (else everyone would be stuck using the same sets, and the game would be more and more boring). However, one cannot deny that Deoxys is one of the few pokemon who can successfully pull off the three sets of Hazards, Screens and Revenge Killer, and many other customs sets (of which Eggbert's is one). This is the problem. Since Deoxys needs only one or two turns to get it's job done, you can't scout it. So yes, while Reuniclus shuts down one set to only one layer of hazards, if it's not that set, then Reuniclus gets killed. Yes, Lati@s can limit it to one layer, but only one of Deoxys sets. If its not that set, then Lati@s gets destroyed. The versatility, even of its three main sets, is what to me, makes Deoxys broken. Also, many of these customs sets are not customs sets at all. The standard sets are all made of only two set moves, and the other two are coverage moves. So, a Screen set would have Reflect, Light Screen, Ice Beam and Taunt, or it could have Reflect, Light Screen, Stealth Rock and Superpower, it's still a Screens Deoxys. The sets aren't limited to a strit four moves, not even to three moves. A Hazards Deoxys needs only Spikes and Stealth Rock, and the other two slots are free for whatever it wants. The customs sets are only the ones who use only one Hazard (like only having Spikes, not SR), or only one Screen, etc. The others aren't custom sets, they are just the standard set. The problem we have with Deoxys is that it's standard sets only have two moves that are necessary. That means, even within the three standard sets, there is still much to be customised, and so the versatility it increased, and with that the unpredictablility goes up as well. That means even less chance to bring in a counter.
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That was one example. Things like Reniclus and Jirachi can run normal sets. Also occa berry has other uses like checking DD nite after SR. Running a choice scarf on terrakion in order to check DD Gyara doesn't make DD Gyara uber. Because not only is that not true, but there are other ways of dealing with it and it contributes to other use (like checking DD haxorus).

assuming Scarf Latios; you damage Deoxys while he sets up a layer of hazards then switches to something to absorb and capitalise on the -2 Draco Meteor, coming back in later to lay another hazard.
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This is part of the game. Nothings stopping you from switching out and predicting the ttar switchin (especially since you have team preview). Also if deo switches out you can get up SR to kill it, or bring in something to pressure it. Either way it didn't do much besides get up SR.

We also shouldn't discuss screens deo. Deo isn't solely what makes dual screens difficult to beat and honestly something isn't uber because it sets up screens reliably.
 
Eggbert said:
That was one example. Things like Reniclus and Jirachi can run normal sets. Also occa berry has other uses like checking DD nite after SR. Running a choice scarf on terrakion in order to check DD Gyara doesn't make DD Gyara uber. Because not only is that not true, but there are other ways of dealing with it and it contributes to other use (like checking DD haxorus).



This is part of the game. Nothings stopping you from switching out and predicting the ttar switchin (especially since you have team preview). Also if deo switches out you can get up SR to kill it, or bring in something to pressure it. Either way it didn't do much besides get up SR.

We also shouldn't discuss screens deo. Deo isn't solely what makes dual screens difficult to beat and honestly something isn't uber because it sets up screens reliably.
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Deoxys-S means both screens up 90% of the time!
No other screenr can do this that often.And this is a huge difference.
Also Deoxys-S prevents setup,can lay both hazards and can kill most of its counters/checks just by changing his attacking move.
Deoxys-S is not Uber solely because of his DS set.
If it was only for the DS set i don't think it would be broken.
But Deoxs-S will surprise you most of the time,and you will often have to play a guessing game if you want to play it safe.
But if you want to play it safe and scout his moveset then it will punish you by setting more hazards/screens.
 
Please read my posts from before, I've adressed all of those points a few times already. Also I can use azelf or uxie or espeon or even mew and still set both screens most of the time. Yes, deo is better, but the other screens still make dual screens deadly with only a minimal difference.
 
Eggbert said:
Please read my posts from before, I've adressed all of those points a few times already. Also I can use azelf or uxie or espeon or even mew and still set both screens most of the time. Yes, deo is better, but the other screens still make dual screens deadly with only a minimal difference.
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You say to me to read your posts from before while you don't read mine.
I have clearly explained you why Deoxys-S is the best screener.Not by little but by far.
Every other screener can die before it sets up,get taunted or setup on.
Deoxys-S faces none of these problems!
Finally none of the other screener are as versatile as Deoxys-S and they all have far less attacking options.
Don't ask me why i mention versatility.
As i said before versatility only adds to a pokemons good points.
Maybe the DS set is not broken on its own but if you combine with the amazing versatility that Deoxys-S has it becomes broken imo.

The other screeners are no where near versatile as Deoxys-S is.
So if i have a Scarftar i know that it is going to kill the opposing Espeon if it stays in.
Same for Latios.
If i see Uxie i know that my CB Scizor along with my ScarfRotom-W are going to limit him to only 1 screen.

But Deoxys-S is almost impossible to stop or requires great deal of prediction.
 
Eggbert said:
Please read my posts from before, I've adressed all of those points a few times already. Also I can use azelf or uxie or espeon or even mew and still set both screens most of the time. Yes, deo is better, but the other screens still make dual screens deadly with only a minimal difference.
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And we've addressed these points as well. Any other Dual Screener can be easily Taunted or OHKOd through something faster or outright too powerful. If you go for bulk, you get Taunted. If you go for speed, you get destroyed before you set up both screens and a hazard. Plus the fact that Deoxys can run more than two viable sets.

I honestly don't know how you could compare Deoxys to any other screener. It outclasses all of them by a landslide. To check it, there's been an insane rise in Scizor usage. When Scizor is #1 and Tyranitar is #2, you'll then see how much of a problem teams face when going against Deoxys.

No one can honestly say that they've never let Deoxys get more than one layer of hazards down, they've never let it set up both screens, or they've never been swept by the LO sweeper all at the same time. Or that they always know exactly what Deoxys set they're going against.
 
You say to me to read your posts from before while you don't read mine.
I have clearly explained you why Deoxys-S is the best screener.Not by little but by far.
Every other screener can die before it sets up,get taunted or setup on.
Deoxys-S faces none of these problems!
Finally none of the other screener are as versatile as Deoxys-S and they all have far less attacking options.
Don't ask me why i mention versatility.
As i said before versatility only adds to a pokemons good points.
Maybe the DS set is not broken on its own but if you combine with the amazing versatility that Deoxys-S has it becomes broken imo.

The other screeners are no where near versatile as Deoxys-S is.
So if i have a Scarftar i know that it is going to kill the opposing Espeon if it stays in.
Same for Latios.
If i see Uxie i know that my CB Scizor along with my ScarfRotom-W are going to limit him to only 1 screen.
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Yea, except I have several times now. It's the best, yes, but the other screens can get up screens too. Try running uxie or azelf. Except for the occasional scarfer it will get up 2 screens most of the time. Deo doesn't even run attacks as a screener. There are things that can stop deo without fearing its coverage. Most leads don't even run taunt except other deo. Try running deo, it doesn't even get 3 turns half of the time. Try using it, go ahead. The difference between UU (NU? RU?) Uxie and deo is steath rock and not being taunted by rare taunt leads??? Also Uxie can get 2 screens against CB zor and rotom.

And we've addressed these points as well. Any other Dual Screener can be easily Taunted or OHKOd through something faster or outright too powerful. If you go for bulk, you get Taunted. If you go for speed, you get destroyed before you set up both screens and a hazard. Plus the fact that Deoxys can run more than two viable sets.

I honestly don't know how you could compare Deoxys to any other screener. It outclasses all of them by a landslide. To check it, there's been an insane rise in Scizor usage. When Scizor is #1 and Tyranitar is #2, you'll then see how much of a problem teams face when going against Deoxys.

No one can honestly say that they've never let Deoxys get more than one layer of hazards down, they've never let it set up both screens, or they've never been swept by the LO sweeper all at the same time. Or that they always know exactly what Deoxys set they're going against.
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Not convincingly. Please see above. Deo-s as a screener is rare anyway, hardly anyone actually runs it or tries it. Scizor and ttar do more than beat deo, that is not solely why they are #1/2. LO sweeper doesn't even sweep that well. please test the stuff. There are things that can stop deo without fearing its coverage, even in the most extreme examples, like it having every coverage move in 2 slots lol. see a few previous posts.

Ok can we get a verdict or something please? I'm just repeating myself again and again.
 
alexwolf said:
Every other screener can die before it sets up,get taunted or setup on.
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How are you going to Taunt Espeon? It can't be Taunted.
Espeon won't be set up on either (have fun setting up on 130 base Sp Atk. What if it's running an offensive set and kills you as you set up?)
It's really hard to kill Espeon before it gets both Screens up. With 110 base Speed, not much is faster, and it can survive a heck of a lot with the appropriate Screen up. Looks like you need Scarfers or ridiculously hard hitters to prevent both Screens from being set up.

All three of these things sound like..... Deoxys-S!


alexwolf]If i see Uxie i know that my CB Scizor along with my ScarfRotom-W are going to limit him to only 1 screen.[/QUOTE] Not to be nitpicky said:
And we've addressed these points as well. Any other Dual Screener can be easily Taunted or OHKOd through something faster or outright too powerful. If you go for bulk, you get Taunted. If you go for speed, you get destroyed before you set up both screens and a hazard. Plus the fact that Deoxys can run more than two viable sets.
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So if Screeners that go for Speed get destroyed so easily, how does Deoxys-S not get destroyed equally easily? (And what can OHKO an Uxie? But nevermind, Uxie has nothing to do with this.)

Deoxys running >2 viable sets means nothing. So does Rotom-W. If you mispredict with Deoxys, oh you might lose a single Pokemon. If you mispredict with Rotom (think it's a Scarf, for example) then it might 2HKO your Celebi with Specs HP Ice. Being unpredictable is only a problem if it allows the Pokemon to just dominate if you guess wrong (like DPP Salamence).

complete legitimacy said:
I honestly don't know how you could compare Deoxys to any other screener. It outclasses all of them by a landslide. To check it, there's been an insane rise in Scizor usage. When Scizor is #1 and Tyranitar is #2, you'll then see how much of a problem teams face when going against Deoxys.
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Those Scizor/Tyranitar stats could also say that we have a problem with Reuniclus. Or with Latias. Or with Latios. In fact, Latios has more usage than Deoxys-S, making my point even more valid.

Usage stats aren't meaningless, but they aren't a prophet either. Forget about them.

complete legitimacy said:
No one can honestly say that they've never let Deoxys get more than one layer of hazards down, they've never let it set up both screens, or they've never been swept by the LO sweeper all at the same time. Or that they always know exactly what Deoxys set they're going against.
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No one can honestly say that they've never let Ferrothorn get more than one layer of hazards down.
Going by the first part of your sentence there, Ferrothorn is way too good at laying hazards to be OU, and should be banished from the tier.
 
In my opinion, i think that it centralizes most players to use more of a hyper offensive approach, being able to at least set up stealth rock and a layer of spikes, which is greatly appreciated by most heavy offense players.
 
ITSU said:
In my opinion, i think that it centralizes most players to use more of a hyper offensive approach, being able to at least set up stealth rock and a layer of spikes, which is greatly appreciated by most heavy offense players.
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This is just incorrect. Nothing is forcing you to run HO, much like nothing forces you to pack Rotom-W and Scizor on every single team you make. Stall, balanced, you name it is still perfectly viable. Its not like Exca where you had to pack specific things like Gliscor to wall it or if you ran HO you will get absolutely curbstomped. And what does the last sentence mean? You're highly mistaken if you think that Deoxys is the only poke capable of setting up more than 2 hazards. Heck, rain stall, which never carries a Deoxys, usually gets up full hazards at some point. In fact, stall is more dependent on hazards than HO is.
 
Lee said:
Pokemon isn't a one-on-one game and your example neglects the fact that:

assuming Scarf Latios; you damage Deoxys while he sets up a layer of hazards then switches to something to absorb and capitalise on the -2 Draco Meteor, coming back in later to lay another hazard.

assuming Specs Latios; hazard Deoxys commonly carries Sash in which case he gets two layers of hazards and something gets to come into capitalise on your -4 Latios. Or maybe he's a different set and uses Light Screen, then Stealth Rock, and then sends out something to setup on your -4 Latios with screen support and entry hazards in place.

Those examples aren't idealistic or prediction-dependant - you're just simply using the right move. Deoxys is a pain in the arse because you can go out of your way to beat a particular set but then you get trashed by the other. An example would be using Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch Metagross to limit Deoxys to just one layer of hazards only to run into the Dual Screen set which throws up Reflect and proceeds to have it's way with you. Maybe you use CB Tyranitar to limit him to one layer of hazards and have a small chance of OHKOing through Reflect after SS damage, only to get nailed by Superpower.

No matter what I'm using I never feel 'confident' against Deoxys-S because I know if it's not the set that I'm banking on then I'm in a very, very bad situation because, quite fittingly for something with 180 Spe, Deoxys can change the tide of a battle very fast by promoting and enabling three of the most broken and unenjoyable (for me) aspects of BW. Those being:

- the complete lack of balance between hazard layers and Rapid Spinners. The hazard layers are often some of the best Pokemon on the game whereas the Spinners generally suck and need to be shoehorned onto a team.
- ridiculous shit like SmashPass and all the accompanying buffs to Baton Pass chains which were already a pain in the arse for standard teams to play against.
- all of the superpowerful boosters that only need one turn to win a match.

No other Pokemon makes these problems as apparent as Deoxys-S.
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Give metagross brick break and magic coat. Granted, sort of situational, but it rapes any hazards/screens lead instantly.
 
?

You don't exactly "Lose" to everything. This can beat down nattorei and skarmory and forry too, and it's still got meteor mash and bullet punch, to make it a good terakion counter; as well as a somewhat sableye counter.
 
tehy said:
?

You don't exactly "Lose" to everything. This can beat down nattorei and skarmory and forry too, and it's still got meteor mash and bullet punch, to make it a good terakion counter; as well as a somewhat sableye counter.
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Metagross Brick Break vs. Physically Defensive Skarm: 16.1% - 19.1%


Metagross Brick Break vs Ferrothorn: 35.2% - 42%


Metagross Meteor Mash vs Sableye: 60.5% - 71.4%

Burned Meteor Mash vs Sableye: 30.6% - 35.9%

Bullet Punch vs Sableye: 24.7% - 28.9%

Burned Bullet Punch vs Sableye: 12.2% - 14.8%

Bullet Punch vs Terrakion: 25.9% - 30.2%

Meteor Mash vs Terrakion: 63% - 74.1%

Fine, only Skarmory walls you.
 
gamer40000 said:
Metagross Brick Break vs. Physically Defensive Skarm: 16.1% - 19.1%


Metagross Brick Break vs Ferrothorn: 35.2% - 42%


Metagross Meteor Mash vs Sableye: 60.5% - 71.4%

Burned Meteor Mash vs Sableye: 30.6% - 35.9%

Bullet Punch vs Sableye: 24.7% - 28.9%

Burned Bullet Punch vs Sableye: 12.2% - 14.8%

Bullet Punch vs Terrakion: 25.9% - 30.2%

Meteor Mash vs Terrakion: 63% - 74.1%

Fine, only Skarmory walls you.
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1) Your percents are a little off. Ferrothorn is always 3HKOed through Leftovers (does a minimum of 38%). Hammer Arm 2HKOes. So really, it only takes you one more hit to kill Ferrothorn with Brick Break. It can't set up hazards unless it predicts like a BOSS, thanks to Magic Coat. And it's not doing crap to Metagross with its STABs.

2) How is Sableye gonna burn Metagross through Magic Coat? Forget about those "burned" calcs. In fact Magic Coat entirely shuts Sableye down. He's not doing anything.

3) Terrakion takes 50%-60% from Bullet Punch. And it gets straight-up OHKOed by Meteor Mash. You must've done that calc and forgotten to remove the burn. And Metagross easily tanks a CB Close Combat (it can survive 2 Scarf Close Combats).

4) Yeah Skarmory walls you but its Brave Birds can't even touch you, and it can't set up Spikes on Magic Coat. If it tries to Whirlwind, you can Magic Coat it out instead.
 
Thank you, above poster.

The point is, you reflect their hazards, not you kill them. That's beating them down, really.
 
Why is Deoxys-S being singled out on the basis of having multiple (2 lol – 3 if u want to count that offensive set) viable sets? What about Jirachi, who can do a hell of a lot more than Deoxys? Espeon, Azelf, Alakazam, Bronzong, and Jirachi can all be considered somewhat similar to Deoxys-S in the lead department. Not to mention the fact that Deoxys takes up an entire slot on one’s team just to possibly contribute some support. One of the most popular combinations, CB Scizor + Volt Switch Rotom-W, can alone defeat virtually any Deoxys-S lead (Volt Switch to Scizor, then finish off with Bullet Punch). Hazards can be spun away, virtually making Deoxys’ efforts useless. Screens could be stalled out. Screens could also be overcome by barraging the enemy with attacks so that setup remains difficult for them. Deoxys can be encored. The offensive set, while having a surprise factor, could be walled and potentially become setup fodder. There are also plenty of things that favourably match up against it in general, such as Tyranitar, Espeon, Politoed, and arguably Scizor. These are just a few ways. Previous posts also have solid information.

I don’t think Deoxys-S is anywhere near broken. Sure, it’s a bit annoying to face. Sure, it does its job pretty damn well. But it doesn’t even come close to being an unstoppable win condition itself, or making it exceedingly easy to for a win condition (setup sweeper usually) to succeed. Also, it alone doesn’t disrupt the balance of playstyles…. Neither Heavy Offense, Hyper Offense, nor any offense is good just because of Deoxys-S. Neither of them are overpowered/overcentralizing either (just throwing that out there).
 
The basic fundamental problem i have with Deoxys S is this the guarantee that comes with the hazards it can put up. Yes you can spin away the hazards, yes you can stall out the screens, but they are up in the first place. if spinning was so easy why would anyone run SE and Spikes in the first place. you can play around it and "counter it" but when people start talking about a specific set on a pokemon that can be created to counter something then a pokemon is broken.
 
I haven't really had any "game breaking" trouble against Deoxys-S. As a screener I can see it getting annoying, as he's got decent defenses even before those screens come up. He can set up hazards, but he's shut down by Reuniclus and Espeon, and while they're both not the most common Pokemon, neither is Deoxys. He works as a revenge killer, because he's so fast and has a very good movepool, but he's got a pretty bad STAB and only decent offences without a boost.

Overall I like him in OU. I feel like he's balanced, but definitely not overpowered simply because there are viable counters to him inside of OU.
 
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