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Ditto
- Thread starter Emperor
- Start date
So what, suicune pretty much screams cm, surf, icebeam/sleeptalk and rest. What advantage does ditto have against suicune. No scouting advantage If it stays in too long it must struggle in 3 turns due to pressure and choice-scarf, or switch out to let a teammember take a +6 surf before it can switch back in.
So I guess a Ditto set should look like this.
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Nature: Brave (0 Spe IVs)
Ability: Eccentric
~Transform
The maximum Atk is so Ditto can hit harder with Struggle and has a chance to beat the opposing Ditto even if they go first.
Edit: By switching in something like Crocune, you can easily set up while all Ditto can do is either set up 6 Calm Minds with you and be unable to attack or attack with a move you can take. This is assuming Ditto is running a Choice Scarf which I think most if not all Ditto will be running.
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Nature: Brave (0 Spe IVs)
Ability: Eccentric
~Transform
The maximum Atk is so Ditto can hit harder with Struggle and has a chance to beat the opposing Ditto even if they go first.
Edit: By switching in something like Crocune, you can easily set up while all Ditto can do is either set up 6 Calm Minds with you and be unable to attack or attack with a move you can take. This is assuming Ditto is running a Choice Scarf which I think most if not all Ditto will be running.
Ditto says I am you suicune, and faster!
In the case of switching to Suicune, it's pretty obvious the ditto user will switch immediately to his suicune counter after having scouted the moveset (and ability), no player would leave ditto in until the opposing suicune gets 6 CMs in.. (btw knowing if it's ice beam or sleeptalk can be a big deal).
Even keeping Ditto in for that one turn allows Crocune to get a free switch in and a free Calm Mind. Double switching is still a good option and basically becomes a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. You send in a bulky sweeper and have the advantage against Ditto. You send in a fast powerful sweeper and have the advantage against their bulky sweeper. You leave Ditto in and have the advantage against their fast powerful sweeper. Obviously it's more complicated than that but you get the idea.
Also, since the Ditto I posted can 4HKO itself with Struggle, you should run Relaxed with 252 Def and 4 Atk so you can always take 5 hits from any Ditto and will always win if you go second.
Also, since the Ditto I posted can 4HKO itself with Struggle, you should run Relaxed with 252 Def and 4 Atk so you can always take 5 hits from any Ditto and will always win if you go second.
I agree fully with your first paragraph.
The problem with your nature +EV/IV spread however is that everyone will be using that particular spread, leaving it to luck which ditto comes out on top.
I think that the situation of ditto versus ditto in a situation where both are locked into non damaging moves only to struggle to death is so unlikely as to not be worth planning on, especially when it ultimately comes down to a coin toss.
If ditto is allowed into this metagame, you're going to need to run a counter to it outside of ditto. Crocune has already been mentioned. Are there water pokemon with access to self super effective moves and substitute? Those would be perfect to counter all forms of ditto, due to swimming goggle getting rid of the speed tie on non scarf versions, and substitute making the choice scarf irrelevant, assuming a ohko is possible.
Since Ditto takes its opponents' Speed, actually HP EVs are the only ones that matter - they're the only ones it doesn't take. So HP positive is all that matters insofar as nature is concerned.
well, starmie is an easy one to think of...but I think you'll have quite a bit of trouble finding an opponent ditto that ISN'T scarfed. Most people won't want to take the risk of a speed tie.
All natures are the same with reguards to hp. And they're talking about ditto vs ditto situations I think
Exactly
I just realized that Eccentric Ditto is a good scout for Zoroark: if it transforms into a Pokemon that ISN'T the one you see, then it must be a Zoroark (with Illusion: idk if Zoroark gets a DW ability).
I'm so glad about Ditto's new niche! Ditto was my first favourite Pokemon, I used to play as Ditto with my friends when I saw five <3
It doesn't
The idea is you send the starmie in on something it forces out, and substitute on the switch. If they send in a ditto, well fine, it gets one attack against a substitute while you're free to OHKO it. If it's non-scarfed, it doesn't even get the attack, unless for some bizarre reason it's also carrying swimming goggles.
Starmie also gets trick, which combined with the rumoured sleep orb effects of swimming goggles, could absolutely wreck the other switch ins.
Remember the HP stat is not copied... You would want to train for that.
"Each move copied by Transform will have 5 PP. With this in mind, if a Ditto encounters another Ditto in this game, both Ditto will continually Transform into each other, replenishing the 5 PP constantly and making the battle seemingly endless."
-http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Transform_(move)
Yup it says so further down the page.
Advantages / Disadvantages
Two things come to my mind when thinking about ditto.
1. Not all Pokemon carry moves super effective against themselves. This is admittedly more common in sweepers, but still - this doesn't aways help. Also, if eccentric works the same way transform did in previous generations (ie. it copies every stat except HP), ditto would have to OHKO the opponent in most situations, due to the enemy's base HP stat almost always being higher than 48 (... man, that's a pretty bad stat...)
2. Despite that, Ditto has very good scouting potential. All it has to do is survive a switch, and you know you're enemies entire set. I could potentially see having a Ditto with Leftover's specifically so that it could switch into versatile Pokemon and I'd know the entire set and be able to counter accordingly.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Two things come to my mind when thinking about ditto.
1. Not all Pokemon carry moves super effective against themselves. This is admittedly more common in sweepers, but still - this doesn't aways help. Also, if eccentric works the same way transform did in previous generations (ie. it copies every stat except HP), ditto would have to OHKO the opponent in most situations, due to the enemy's base HP stat almost always being higher than 48 (... man, that's a pretty bad stat...)
2. Despite that, Ditto has very good scouting potential. All it has to do is survive a switch, and you know you're enemies entire set. I could potentially see having a Ditto with Leftover's specifically so that it could switch into versatile Pokemon and I'd know the entire set and be able to counter accordingly.
Anyway, just my two cents.
As someone pointed out, Ditto doesn't necessarily have lower HP than the original. Because its other stats are determined independently of its EVs, it can have max HP, beating some lower-HP sweepers that don't invest such as Lucario.
Opponents not carrying moves super effective against themselves isn't necessarily a problem, either. Say you're facing an Infernape. You don't need a super effective hit when you can just outspeed with a Choice Scarf and use its Close Combat against it. It could be a problem for some sweepers that resist their STABs, though, such as Suicune.
"IVs of the target are copied for purposes of Hidden Power, as well"
it even copies hidden power
So wait, I'm a little confused. Does Transform copy stat boosts like Swords Dance or not? (I'm working off the assumption that Eccentric works just like transform.)
yes it copies any stat changes from stat increasing/decreasing moves
Can anyone give me a scenario on how Escape Button works? It sounds interesting.