Don't use this, use that: Little Cup edition

[apt-get]

approved by macle, shamelessly stolen from the RU thread

Don't Use This, Use That
Little Cup Edition​

The purpose of this thread is to discuss common sets that are seen as overrated and suggest better alternatives. There are a lot of Pokemon and sets in the usage stats that are ineffective, and we should raise awareness that these sets are not optimal. Furthermore, there are a few Pokemon that don't even deserve to be in the tier because they simply do not work effectively. There are certain Pokemon being used on the ladder in a way that reduces their viability. For example, SubRoost Murkrow is not effective in the metagame, though that doesn't mean Murkrow is bad as a whole, as the Life Orb Wallbreaker set is still one of the best mixed attackers in the tier. You can also suggest alternative Pokemon that outclass another in a certain role, such as suggesting Staryu for Rapid Spinning instead of Kabuto. If you think a Pokemon or set is wrongfully being accused of being ineffective, you are encouraged to discuss why you think that way.

*Please do not use this thread to bash Pokemon, try to educate the playerbase and teach them what not to use. Any offensive posts will be deleted/edited.​

Example post

SubRoost:

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Def / 20 SDef / 188 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Roost
- Substitute

Why it's bad:
While SubRoost Murkrow was one of the top sets for it last generation, it's not as good in XY. First off, Fighting-types are rarer now, mainly due to the threat of new Pokémon like Yanma and Gligar. Meditite, the most popular fighting-type, can easily hit it hard on the switch with Ice Punch and easily OHKO it. It has a lot less opportunities to use Substitute or Roost this gen, and it's just outclassed by Gligar as a semi-bulky attacker, thanks to the latter's access to STAB Earthquake, allowing it to smash Flying resists. While you may think Murkrow is more powerful with Brave Bird, it cannot even OHKO Berry Juice Swirlix after Stealth Rock, making it setup bait for one of the most terrifying sweepers of this gen. Even Defog is illegal with Prankster, meaning it can't abuse that tool to remove hazards. SubRoost Murkrow just doesn't shine as much as it did last gen.


MixKrow:

Murkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Insomnia
Level: 5
EVs: 188 Spd / 236 Atk / 76 SAtk
Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Heat Wave
- Sucker Punch
- Icy Wind

Why it's better:
Even if SubRoost isn't as good anymore, MixKrow is still one of the best wallbreakers of this gen. Brave Bird with a Life Orb hits everything like a truck, while Sucker Punch is powerful enough to OHKO Yanma after a round of Life Orb. Icy Wind is capable of OHKOing even Eviolite Gligar after two Stealth Rock switch-ins, a really important feat when the latter cannot threaten it seriously with any of its attacks. Heat Wave hits Steel-types such as Magnemite and Pawniard really hard, OHKOing both. This Murkrow doesn't fear Tangela either, as you can switch on a predicted Sleep Powder and smack it with Brave Bird thanks to Insomnia. Substitute and Roost are just a waste of momentum on Murkrow, when it could be dismantling the entire opposing team.

Some things that we would like discussed to begin:

• Aipom
• Eviolite Magnemite over Berry Juice Magnemite
• Eviolite Bronzor

 

[apt-get]

reserved

 

[Antar]

Just going to start with the obvious, because, unfortunately, I see this shit way too often on the ladder:

Leftovers, Oran Berry, Sitrus Berry: All outclassed by Berry Juice
Assault Vest: Outclassed by Eviolite

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

I see Fennekin a lot, and please people, STOP. While Magician is interesting, it actually does pretty poor in the field of battle. Seriously, use Vulpix, Growlithe, Houndour or Ponyta instead. Litleo is also pretty outclassed by a ton of things. Moxie is good for stuff like Scraggy due to their high Attack stat, but Litleo is a special attacker. Maybe there's a niche with that thing, but I can't see it.

 

[Shouting]

Rock Polish Aron:

Aron @ Life Orb
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 196 Spd / 116 Def
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish

Why it's bad:
Rock Polish just doesn't work on Aron anymore. Even with a boost, it only reaches 24 Speed after a Rock Polish, leaving it open to quite a few scarfers. It is also weak to mach punch, aqua jet, and vacuum wave, and has difficulty defeating threats such as Gilgar, Ferroseed, and most fighting types. It is also quite difficult to set up on most teams as well due to it's exploitable weaknesses and poor initial speed.


Eviolite Aron:

Aron @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 196 Sdef
Careful Nature
- Head Smash
- Iron Head
- Superpower / Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Why it's better:
Instead of using Aron to sweep, use Aron for it's typing, which is really good and anti-meta right now. Aron checks almost all variants of Murkrow, Yanma lacking Hidden Power Ground, Vullaby, Archen lacking Earthquake, Flecthling, Spritzee, and if you pack superpower, you can beat SD Pawniard reliably. Most important of all, Aron is the only pokemon in LC (besides Shieldon) that can reliably beat Calm Mind AND Belly Drum Swirlx which is huge. Unfortunately loses to Cotton Guard variants, but nonetheless Aron can check or counter a lot of common threats right now and is much better than Rock Polish Aron. As far as moves, Head Smash hit anything coming in on Aron really hard due to its 150 BP, Iron Head is for fairies, Lileep, a good move to hit fighting types, and you can use it if you can't risk a miss. Superpower and Earthquake is for coverage, Superpower hits Porygon, Ferroseed, and Pawniard hard, while Earthquake hits Honedge and Croagunk. Wish support from Spritzee is appreciated, as Aron does lack reliable recovery.

 

[Electrolyte]

Awesome thread, apt-get n_n

Time's a changin'

Trapper Magnemite

Magnemite @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 36 Def / 240 SpA / 76 SpD
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power Fire
- Magnet Rise
- Volt Switch

Why it's bad:

This set isn't necessarily bad; it's just not as great. What this set's goal is to wall Ground-types with Magnet Rise and trap and KO Steel-types, but unfortunately that niche is outdated and no longer necessary. Steel-types like Pawniard can just use Berry Juice lacking Magnemite as setup bait and then just OHKO it with boosted Knock Off, as Magnemite fails to KO the faster Berry Juice Pawniard with HP Fire. Honedge is another common Steel-type that Magnemite can no longer trap- as it just gets KOd easily by Sacred Sword. No other Steel-types are really that common, so this set's main niche is severely stained.

Magnet Rise might also seem great this generation because it lets Magnemite wall Gligar and Yanma, but that isn't always the case. The problem is that Magnemite needs to set up first, which prevents it from beating important threats such as Gligar or Yanma, who will just OHKO it before it can set up. Gligar too can cause heavy damage with boosted Knock Off as Magnemite barely 2HKOs with Flash Cannon. Yanma can easily just put it to sleep, and if Magnet Rise wears out, it'll just get OHKOd by HP Ground. Magnemite simply doesn't have the time to set up Magnet Rise, and without Sturdy, it can't act as a check to either Pokemon.


SturdyJuice Magnemite

Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 220 Spd / 228 SAtk / 60 Def
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt / Recycle
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch / Recycle

Why it's better:

This updated Magnemite keeps up with the trend, taking advantage of Sturdy, Berry Juice, and its nice typing, defensively and offensively. With Sturdy and Berry Juice, it effectively has 3 lives, capable of surviving any attack at least twice. Its Steel-type STAB is immensely useful this generation, hitting pesky Fairy-types such as Swirlix for the OHKO. Thunderbolt is also extremely powerful, hitting the ever common Flying-type super effectively, letting Magnemite serve as a check / counter to many of the tier's most frightening attackers, including Murkrow and Yanma. SturdyJuice lets Magnemite daringly beat Gligar, who is easily OHKOd by Hidden Power Ice after it fails to OHKO Magnemite due to Sturdy. Recycle is another move you can run on this set; it lets Magnemite get its Berry Juice back, letting it basically outstall almost any opponent. This set can effectively check almost every single offensive threat in the meta, making it a very useful Pokemon on many different kinds of teams.


Magnemite is still a very top tier Pokemon- it just needs to shift with the meta, drop its old niche that it can no longer perform as well, and pick up a new job that's a lot more important in the new LC environment.

 

[Kingler]

Shouting
+1 swirlix ohkoes with surf so aron doesnt check that lol.
Might post something later.

 

[tcr]

Murkrow @ Life Orb/ Eviolite
Trait: Insomnia
EVs: 236 Atk/ 76 SpA/ 180 Spd
Naive Nature
- Heat Wave
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Icy Wind

This set is better:

Murkrow @ Berry Juice
Trait: Insomnia
EVs: 236 Atk/ 80 SpA/ 180 Spe
Naive Nature
- Heat Wave
- Brave Bird
- Icy Wind
- Sucker Punch

Why this set is better: Murkrow's best ability is to wallbreak in this metagame. Life Orb wears you down so much, doing at least 30% on resisted Brave Bird hits, and the way to stop Mixcrow is just to wear it down with Life Orb damage. Berry Juice eliminates that, granting you a second life, where you can start wallbreaking again. Life Orb is only necessary for a possible OHKO on Gligar, which isnt guaranteed, and you run the risk of speed tying anyway. It also fails to OHKO Yanma with Sucker Punch, but there was only a 50% chance anyway. Since Yanma fails to KO anyway with Bug Buzz anyway, it activates Berry Juice, allowing you to heat wave for the ohko and still be good to go. It also still beats Gligar, as even if it goes first it fails to ohko with berried Acro (110 bp). This activates Berry Juice allowing you to ohko with Icy Wind. Defensive variants are 2hkoed but most only run eq and again, acto fails to do anything. Every other mon that murkrow should need to hit is 2hkoed at least outside like tirtouga. Theres no need to run Life Orb in my opinion, it is simply unneeded recoil. Please make this set more standard than Eviolite at least .-.

 

[Shouting]

Shouting
+1 swirlix ohkoes with surf so aron doesnt check that lol.
Might post something later.

+1 204+ SpA Swirlix Surf vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Aron: 16-20 (66.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not to mention if Swirlx doesn't carry surf and uses Substitute, Thunderbolt or Psychic, it completely loses.

 

[chimp]

Don't use Dragon Dance Scraggy- use bulky attacker(?)

DD scraggy, while once one of the most threating sweepers, was badly nerfed this gen. DD sets are now walled by gligar or fairies as well as the same fighting types as before.

Scraggy can run a solid bulky attacker set with Intimidate, Drain Punch/Knock Off/Ice Punch/Poison Jab. Scraggy proves to be a good stop to ghost and dark type pokemon, like Missy and Pawniard and STAB knock off is phenomenal.

 

[prem]

Murkrow @ Life Orb/ Eviolite
Trait: Insomnia
EVs: 236 Atk/ 76 SpA/ 180 Spd
Naive Nature
- Heat Wave
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Icy Wind

This set is better:

Murkrow @ Berry Juice
Trait: Insomnia
EVs: 236 Atk/ 80 SpA/ 180 Spe
Naive Nature
- Heat Wave
- Brave Bird
- Icy Wind
- Sucker Punch

Why this set is better: Murkrow's best ability is to wallbreak in this metagame. Life Orb wears you down so much, doing at least 30% on resisted Brave Bird hits, and the way to stop Mixcrow is just to wear it down with Life Orb damage. Berry Juice eliminates that, granting you a second life, where you can start wallbreaking again. Life Orb is only necessary for a possible OHKO on Gligar, which isnt guaranteed, and you run the risk of speed tying anyway. It also fails to OHKO Yanma with Sucker Punch, but there was only a 50% chance anyway. Since Yanma fails to KO anyway with Bug Buzz anyway, it activates Berry Juice, allowing you to heat wave for the ohko and still be good to go. It also still beats Gligar, as even if it goes first it fails to ohko with berried Acro (110 bp). This activates Berry Juice allowing you to ohko with Icy Wind. Defensive variants are 2hkoed but most only run eq and again, acto fails to do anything. Every other mon that murkrow should need to hit is 2hkoed at least outside like tirtouga. Theres no need to run Life Orb in my opinion, it is simply unneeded recoil. Please make this set more standard than Eviolite at least .-.

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 20 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 21-27 (91.3 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 20 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 16-21 (69.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 SpA Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


swirlix is a big reason to run life orb. also porygon (whose return is neigh) is failed to be 2hkoed without life orb brave bird. also if you are smart like me and use itemless gligar (LOL) murkrow dies which is sad. also the pawniard where bj always lives while life orb kills so thats important. also bravebird is a 2hko against spritzee while its not againt it when you forget to use life orb.

im not going to say life orb is completely superior, because you obviously proved it isnt, but there aer significant moments where life orb is necessary like that.


<~blarajan> you could have just said
<~blarajan> "lo krow is godmode you stupid" and i probably would have badged you for it
<@prem> lol
<@prem> badged me wtih that.
<~blarajan> #currybadge

 

[Darkamber8828]

Eviolite Aron:

Aron @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 196 Sdef
Careful Nature
- Head Smash
- Iron Head
- Superpower / Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Why aren't you using SturdyJuice Metal Burst Aron?

Aron @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Atk
IVs: 0 Spd
Brave Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Earthquake / Superpower
- Metal Burst

Iron Head / Earthquake hits pretty much everything in Little Cup except Swanna/Mantyke/Wingull, who are all faster anyway (and lack ways to go through Metal Burst) and Bronzor, which also lacks a way to go through Metal Burst. Metal Burst lets you kill something for free and set up Stealth Rock, or kill two things, or squish something while they try to play around Metal Burst. SturdyJuice is really too useful to not use.

 

[Shouting]

Berry Juice Aron does not check Calm Mind Swirlx, as +1 Surf will usually OHKO it, or beat SD Pawniard lacking brick break. Sturdy and Metal Burst is pretty easy to see coming because you are not using Head Smash and is completely ruined by hazards of any kind. I prefer Eviolite for these reasons.

 

[tcr]

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 20 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 21-27 (91.3 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
204+ SpA Swirlix Dazzling Gleam vs. 36 HP / 20 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
80 SpA Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


swirlix is a big reason to run life orb. also porygon (whose return is neigh) is failed to be 2hkoed without life orb brave bird. also if you are smart like me and use itemless gligar (LOL) murkrow dies which is sad. also the pawniard where bj always lives while life orb kills so thats important. also bravebird is a 2hko against spritzee while its not againt it when you forget to use life orb.

im not going to say life orb is completely superior, because you obviously proved it isnt, but there aer significant moments where life orb is necessary like that.

The first is a OHKO after any weak attack, or even stealth rocks up IIRC. The second dies to a brave bird+heat wave, which is a far more likely and safer scenario than trying to predict the switch in. For the spritzee example, i dont know about you, but i would rather not sacrifice 60+% health just to take out one pokemon, considering other common pokemon defeat it one on one, teammates such as gligar, pawniard, and even magnemite walls spritzee cold, all common partners for krow at least for me.

Confuse about itemless gligar, how does that beat murkrow one v one lol (srsly doe i see that set and idk what its trying to do, acro isnt boosted is it?)

Porygon is the only pokemon I can think of where a Life Orb would be more viable. +1 to cutie prem

I didnt say Life Orb wasnt viable, i personally think BJ is more viable and wallbreaks for longer, which is better in my opinion. I believe I posted this but a lot of the ones it doesnt ohko are outsped anyway, and koed. Or, they are 2hkoed by brave bird+something.

Nice calcs tho i didnt know it didnt ohko swirlix already!

 

[prem]

The first is a OHKO after any weak attack, or even stealth rocks up IIRC. The second dies to a brave bird+heat wave, which is a far more likely and safer scenario than trying to predict the switch in. For the spritzee example, i dont know about you, but i would rather not sacrifice 60+% health just to take out one pokemon, considering other common pokemon defeat it one on one, teammates such as gligar, pawniard, and even magnemite walls spritzee cold, all common partners for krow at least for me.

Confuse about itemless gligar, how does that beat murkrow one v one lol (srsly doe i see that set and idk what its trying to do, acro isnt boosted is it?)

Porygon is the only pokemon I can think of where a Life Orb would be more viable. +1 to cutie prem

I didnt say Life Orb wasnt viable, i personally think BJ is more viable and wallbreaks for longer, which is better in my opinion. I believe I posted this but a lot of the ones it doesnt ohko are outsped anyway, and koed. Or, they are 2hkoed by brave bird+something.

Nice calcs tho i didnt know it didnt ohko swirlix already!

okay i make my calcs assuming no sr in lc because lc doesnt always have sr. and idk maybe its just different styles of murkrow playing, but i just bring murkrow in press brave bird and sepect things to die. so swirlix coming in for free and getting its bj up and then ahving a field day isnt EXACTLY what i want to happen, especially since my teams are normally pretty swirlix weak. and the pawniard one im assuming the pawniard comes in after a death, cause honestly i dont like switching murkrow out until half their team dies. i mean i know i can but its more fun asserting murkrows dominance LOL. the spritzee thing, there are situations when you need to save something like gligar or pawniard for later, rather than let them get damage earlier on; with murkrow you can basically control what will die and what will not die, which is something that i think murkrow does better than everything else in this tier.


also the generally things are 2hkoed by murkrow over ohkoed, i honestly dont think being able to 2hko everything in this tier is good enough most of the time, because outside of a switch in situation, that gives the opponent one turn to kill murkrow because like hell murkrow will take a hit. obviously team mates exist, but i dont think of murkrow as a hit and run type of mon because of my playstyle with it.


and yeah viable was a bad word i meant to say both are good dependent on the situation and probably for the team also

 

[Electrolyte]

I've already explained to you my general opinion regarding that set, TCR, but I'd like to note that Murkrow needs its Life Orb for revenge killing more than anything else- the ability to beat Yanma 1v1 with Insomnia and LO Sucker is incredible, and you can also quite easily finish off SturdySmashers, Meditite with priority, and even weakened Chinchou. All of this IS aside from the fact that LO does give Murkrow a LOT more necessary power, and just nets it a lot more KOs in general.

But uhm why is Eviolite MixKrow even a thing lmao

 

[Rowan]

Am I a bad player (don't answer it's rhetorical), I swear I disagree with so much stuff in this thread???

Others have already pointed out why LO Krow is a fucking god so I won't mention that.

Electrolyte: Steel Trapper Magnemite is a legitimate set; although it isn't as useful as it was last generation, if you get it in for free it can really do its job well: imo, it has more of a niche role than SturdyJuice Mag but they are different and therefore I don't think you can say it is outclassed. Trapping Ferroseed and Bronzor can still be useful and Pawniard and Honedge can be revenged once they have been whittled down to 85% HP, and it isn't hard to switch Mag into Honedge on Iron Head or Shadow Sneak. I do admit though that this set isn't as good as it used to be, it is still usable though.

blizzardy: Dragon Dance Scraggy is still viable, though I admit less good than last meta. A set of Drain Punch/HJK, Knock Off and then either ZenButt, Poison Jab or Ice Punch is very good, though requires support. Depending on what its running, it still needs its counters removed, but so does every late-game sweeper. The great thing about Scraggy is its unpredictability. Swirlix might switch in expecting to wall it, only to be OHKOd by a Poison Jab. Same with Croagunk and Gligar with Zenbutt and Ice Punch. Knock Off has also improved this set a lot, allowing it to weaken Mienfoo or Spritzee early game so it can take them out late-game. That's not to say a Bulky Attacker set isn't good, its just a Dragon Dance one isn't outclassed.


Now my one:
Don't use:
Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 SDef
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off / Ice Punch

Use:
Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 HP / 156 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch

Timburr just cannot sweep with Bulk Up anymore. The addition of Gligar, Yanma, Swirlix, Spritzee, Tangela, Meditite just make it really easy to revenge, it really stands very little chance of setting up a late-game sweep. Not to mention the extra coverage is now necessary with much more threats that need to be covered. Timburr is best suited being a bulky tank not a bulky sweeper.

 

[ryan]

Berry Juice Aron does not check Calm Mind Swirlx, as +1 Surf will usually OHKO it, or beat SD Pawniard lacking brick break. Sturdy and Metal Burst is pretty easy to see coming because you are not using Head Smash and is completely ruined by hazards of any kind. I prefer Eviolite for these reasons.

Berry Juice sets without HP investment beat it.

Swirlix is out, you switch in Aron.

Swirlix uses Surf and Aron is brought to Sturdy -> Berry Juice brings it back to full -> Swirlix uses Surf again and brings Aron back to Sturdy -> Aron uses Iron Head and Swirlix dies

Swirlix uses Calm Mind on the switch -> Swirlix uses Surf and brings Aron to Sturdy -> Berry Juice brings it back to full -> Aron uses Iron Head and Swirlix dies

I'll bite on Eviolite Bronzor. Basically, it's awful. No recovery means that all of that delicious bulk means nothing for it. It's so easy to wear down. Recycle Berry Juice Bronzor is superior because it's still super bulky, has a very unique defensive typing that lets it hard wall stuff like non-Knock Off Gligar, and actually gets a reliable method of recovery. I still don't care THAT much for Bronzor because despite its good bulk and recovery, it opens up a free switch for opposing Pawniard (which we all know is something that I hate to do!) and is even more vulnerable to Knock Off without that defensive buff from Eviolite. Even so, it's definitely usable and should be accounted for in teambuilding. Eviolite Bronzor doesn't really need to be accounted for though because it's so exploitable and easy to wear down.

 

[Shouting]

Berry Juice sets without HP investment beat it.

Swirlix is out, you switch in Aron.

Swirlix uses Surf and Aron is brought to Sturdy -> Berry Juice brings it back to full -> Swirlix uses Surf again and brings Aron back to Sturdy -> Aron uses Iron Head and Swirlix dies

Swirlix uses Calm Mind on the switch -> Swirlix uses Surf and brings Aron to Sturdy -> Berry Juice brings it back to full -> Aron uses Iron Head and Swirlix dies

Yes, and if there is stealth rock on the field? Aron just lost.
I prefer not to rely on stealth rock not being up to beat one of the most dangerous sweepers in LC, especially when you can check it just fine with a different item.

 

[Electrolyte]

yeah in regards to what Corkscrew said, I was really reluctant to flat out say 'why it's bad' because it isn't, really, just like a lot of the sets posted in this thread that you've disagreed with. To be fair apt-get did mean for this thread to be centered around Pokemon people SHOULD use and then explain why other still viable sets are less viable, but not necessarily all that bad. That was poor wording on my end.

Electrolyte: Steel Trapper Magnemite is a legitimate set; although it isn't as useful as it was last generation, if you get it in for free it can really do its job well: imo, it has more of a niche role than SturdyJuice Mag but they are different and therefore I don't think you can say it is outclassed. Trapping Ferroseed and Bronzor can still be useful and Pawniard and Honedge can be revenged once they have been whittled down to 85% HP, and it isn't hard to switch Mag into Honedge on Iron Head or Shadow Sneak. I do admit though that this set isn't as good as it used to be, it is still usable though.

I would also like to point out that it would be pointless to point out that they have different niches and can't be compared, as making such an assumption ruins the whole point of the thread- you wouldn't have much to compare between two different sets of the same Pokemon if they did the same thing, would you? I'm not saying that it's outclassed; I'm being less specific and saying that Trapper Mag's niche is less useful than that of SturdyJuice's niche. I recognize that they do different things, and thus I am comparing their different roles as opposed to how either function with a single role.

Anyway, on that note, it is safe to clarify that SturdyJuice's niche is more useful and relevant in today's meta than Trapper. The ability to check almost any top tier threat is quite a lot better than simply trapping Steel-types, especially when Trapper Mag can't even really trap full HP or boosted Pawniard, the most prevalent Steel-type in the tier. Nailing Bronzor and Ferroseed is useful I guess but come on you can't say that that is better than beating Flying-types and setup sweepers. Sturdy Juice is much preferred because its role is more useful, even though the other set is still viable.

 

[chimp]

Yeah, I made that mistake too; I guess I didn't mean that DD Scraggy was outclassed, its certainly still a good sweeper, I just meant that I feel Bulky Attacking Scraggy is better to use in the current meta. I'll try to explain myself better next time.

 

[birdcrest]

Aipom Baton Passer is good, but outclassed by Torchic.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Aipom Baton Passer is good, but outclassed by Torchic.

No Aipom is crap as a baton passer and as a mon in general, u got a long ways to go

 

[MQJinx]

Bumping this because I have something relevant to post, why are 33% of Fletchling holding items?

Don't use:

Fletchling @ literally any item
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 196 Atk / 132 SpD / 180 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
- Roost

For Fletchling to succeed in LC, it must be able to use Acrobatics, as Aerial Ace is terribly weak. Items hinder Fletchling from doing so, and not even Choice Band can help boost Aerial Ace's power to do significant damage to the opponent. Also Jolly Speedy Fletchling is just stupid, as the speed is useless since your main attacking move has priority, and without Adamant, Fletchling is weak in power, and without defense investment, it cannot take hits very well.

Use this instead:

Fletchling @ No item
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Atk / 92 Def / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Protect / U-turn
- Roost

With an Adamant nature and no item Acrobatics, Fletchling can actually pose a threat. It can easily sweep once all mons that resist Acrobatics are removed, while also being a good revenge killer. Even though you are investing in bulk, it still isn't too impressive in taking powerful hits, so you still must use caution when using it. Holding no items at all applies to every Fletchling set, not just the Swords Dance one.

 

[The Avalanches]

Bumping this because I have something relevant to post, why are 33% of Fletchling holding items?

Don't use:

Fletchling @ literally any item
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 196 Atk / 132 SpD / 180 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
- Roost

For Fletchling to succeed in LC, it must be able to use Acrobatics, as Aerial Ace is terribly weak. Items hinder Fletchling from doing so, and not even Choice Band can help boost Aerial Ace's power to do significant damage to the opponent. Also Jolly Speedy Fletchling is just stupid, as the speed is useless since your main attacking move has priority, and without Adamant, Fletchling is weak in power, and without defense investment, it cannot take hits very well.

Use this instead:

Fletchling @ No item
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Atk / 92 Def / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Protect / U-turn
- Roost

With an Adamant nature and no item Acrobatics, Fletchling can actually pose a threat. It can easily sweep once all mons that resist Acrobatics are removed, while also being a good revenge killer. Even though you are investing in bulk, it still isn't too impressive in taking powerful hits, so you still must use caution when using it. Holding no items at all applies to every Fletchling set, not just the Swords Dance one.

Most Fletchling holding items are using Berry Juice, which is still useable, as it allows Fletchling to set up swords dance easier.