Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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BlueSkiddoWeCanToo said:
Can we stop with the childish crap. You're only devaluing your own posts with all this shit talking.
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Thank you.

But as a nerd I want to jump in here and say that win percentage from open at this point shouldn't guide opinions on what's good/viable
Statistically the sample size is too small to determine significance. We need more observations for proper analysis on the statistics
 
KyleCole said:
I agree with all of Elise's other noms though, even pert to 4 because volcanion makes rain even harder to use :(
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I think people are honestly less prepared than ever for rain, as they think "oh volc can check rain" even though it loses to kingdra and ludicolo. While I certainly wouldnt advise using pert, I think diancie rain is pretty strong right now and I've been using a team I really like a lot.
 
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Big_Danny_Mason said:
I think people are honestly less prepared than ever for rain, as they think "oh volc can check rain" even though it loses to kingdra and ludicolo. While I certainly wouldnt advise using pert, I think diancie rain is pretty strong right now and I've been using a team I really like a lot.
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I've also been experimenting with Gengar Rain, and honesty, Rain is still really good. If anything, Volcanion's presense only increased Thundurus's role in Rain. Kingdra at least inflict 75% of Volcanion's HP, too.

Elise said:
Venusaur to tier 4
This is an incredibly terrible Pokemon that can basically only be used on sun. When Sun isn't up you're basically near useless. You don't do a huge amount of damage, you lose to the common sun checks (talonflame / heatran) and Sleep Powder isn't reliable enough to beat a lot of the fires or steels which you can't touch. It still has it's niche versus bad people I guess
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Venusuaur is still good. It's just that the majority choose to use that set with STAB + Sleep Powder; it's too predictable. If you really want to get rid of Heatran or Landorus-T, put HP Ground (33% Guaranteed OHKO) or HP Ice (Guaranteed OHKO). And I disagree with the statement of "incredibly terrible Pokemon that can basically only be used on sun" because that can be applied to both Kingdra and Ludicolo; they're aren't shit and definitely have a place on Tier 2. Nevertheless, I'm happy with Venusaur being on Tier 3 because Tier 4 means it's utter shit, and generally, I prefer to use Solo Sun.
 
Elise

I mean to be fair you kinda did the same thing

Can you qualify why you think Weavile should be tier 2? It's the only nom in your post that just doesn't have a reasoning, and the onus is on you to prove why it's good enough for tier 2.
But yeah n1n1 you gotta give some kind of reasoning for your noms, describe why it's bad or good or etc you know? Give an example of some insights you've had recently that might sway some opinions...

Test Bot #

I would heavily caution against trying to say "oh but this set" especially when no one has ever used that set in a competitive format (if someone has, link it). If someone says Ferrothorn holds back Gardevoir too much, a player can't just say "oh but hp fire" because you're inevitably losing something, whether it be fast encore or semiroom capabilities or (if you're insane) Protect. The same thing goes for trying to use HP Ground or HP Ice Venusaur (btw life orb Leaf Storm ohkos LandoT): you're inevitably dropping SOMETHING whether you like it or not and running HP Ground and it's still going to be awkward playing against subTran.

I'm willing to get behind Gastro to tier 2 but I would be hesitant as it struggles dealing with common partners to Tran/Volcanion/Jirachi/Thund/LandoT, ie Kang and Amoonguss.

Also going to add to the point about LandoI to 3 because I honestly find myself questioning using LandoI instead of just scarf or special LandoT. LandoT's got bluffing value and Intimidate, whereas LandoI just gets pure damage, which, obviously is pretty nice (it's notably better as using Focus Blast), but when someone sees a LandoT and calculates like 6 turns in advance for the contingency of "I can sack my Aegis here because it'll mean they're locking into EQ so then he'll have to switch next turn if I bring in my Thundurus and then I get to.." and then you lowkey whip out Earth Power; das some pretty strong bluff value.
 
n1n1 said:
Mega blastoise
Mega mawile
To the 4th tier
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Bc yall want me to explain.

Mega blastoise has nice access to fake out for TR support if you want that and hit heavy with water spout. Otherwise you can have more offensive moves over fake out like dark pulse, muddy water, Aurora shere, and ice beam. Nice coverage, great move pool and strength

Mega mawile ain't nothing to fuck with. After its ability it's base attack is 220
Suck punch iron head play rough are it's strong diverse moves. Also pre mega ability of intimate is very nice
 
I'll get on board with mawile to tier 4 lol

Intimidate is a pretty hot pre mega ability, iron head play rough sucker punch sucks dick and knock off>iron head is so much better imo; it allows it to do huge damage to jirachi and aegislash, knock heatran/volcanions goggles/leftovers off, amoonguss' sitrus berry/helmet or lando's av/scarf all common things that would switch into mawile. Knock off was something stratos mentioned back when mega mence was legal and it was a pretty cool answer to jirachi+mence that's where I originally got the idea to use it. Other things mawile has going for it is that it's a good kanga switchin and check to other tier 1 mons like gardevoir and jirachi, a good trick room/semi room mon, walls shit like hoopa which aside from mandibuzz I can't think of anything else that does(scrafty :3), and it's a good answer to cm cress. Mawile actually has decent tournament results as well I'm 3-1 with it I believe and Lohgock won with it in spl.

Also support any rise in gastrodon:)
image.png
 
haxd what else.

TBH the replays don't prove much about typh but I support the nom. Other than victini (which suffers from the hinderances of stat drops) you can't really run a more consistent scarf fire, which as Sam said outspeeds lando. Talonflame competes for "fast fire" but Eruption, special moves, and STAB that doesnt KO you carve out a decent niche. Tier 4 seems reasonable for this kinda mon. Better than goddam jynx.

EDIT: another amazing typh replay. prepare to eat your words Bughouse
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-426538919
 
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I nom scrafty to tier 1.5.

Scrafty is a really good mon in this meta, fitting on multiple plays types due to its intimidate + fake out + good typing. It is really good on tr as a way to help set it up or on balance as a way to beat aegislash and just bring general bulk to a team. It may not have the best matchups vs all of tier 1 but it's a very solid fake out user and I think it's better than tier 2
 
Tfw you're joke is stolen...

Also charX to tier 3
No one uses it because it's bad. Crippled by twave and intimate, genies. Along with walled by Heatran among other common threats
 

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So many votes. Here they are

Voting Order: qsns, kamikaze, shaian, Dawg, SamVGC, Memoric

Mega Charizard-X 2 -> 3
yes

Abstain

yes awkward setup mon that looks flames but isnt that great but can be very threatening on the right comps

Yes, outclassed imo

Yes, not strong enough to warrant a mega slot on non meme teams

Yes. This needs to be really effective and it just gets dicked by a lot of stuff such as Heatran and Landorus-T. As an attacker, it's p strong but not really worth the Mega slot. Could be worth it at times, I think it's cool, but it's 3 material.
Cresselia 3 -> 2
yes

Yes. CM Cress is a threat one again

yes, this mons awesome. why the fuck was it in 4 before? trick room, icy wind, cm, it has tools that can work anywhere

Yes

Yes, CM set is amazing and Icy Wind/TR support with its other options are really strong.

Yes. Oh no the DOU Illuminati Hivemind is at it again!!! This thing's a really good supporter, one of the bulkiest mofos in the tier, and can be a threatening piece with CM that can end games on its own if circumstances permit.
Virizion 3 -> 4
yes

Yes. Yea too many bulky offensive teams and the rise of garde and hoopa also killed it. 60-70% usage lando as well.

yes, weak as shit and got worse with hoopa and volcanion

no

Yes, it's not really great at what it does and loses to way too many common threats to warrant a team slot on most teams

Yes. Checking a cool set of threats is cool but it's weak as shit. Physical defense is atrocious too I swear I beat that down with Lando-T EQ once.
Mew 2 <-3 -> 4 (currently in 3)
stay in 3

Abstain

abstain. i mean, im leaning towards 4 but i dont really think it belongs there cuz a jack of all trades is a p nifty thing but its most definitely not a tier 2 mon and whoever nommed that should delete their account

2, with jirachi azu kept in the tier, has the potential to perform extremely well in tandum.

Mew should stay in 3, it's got enough going for it to stay above 4 but it's not usable on enough teams to warrant a tier two spot.

Stay in 3. It has a lot of nifty tools and you still have to respect it as the threat of Transform is p scary at times. Just because it's predictable or linear doesn't mean it's bad.
Bronzong 4 -> UR
no

No. the typing with levitate is actually really cool for a tr setter and also has some cool support options

no, ground immune steel tr setter is useful on the right comps

yes, no gravity hypnosis, which may have been its saving grace

No, steel typing is as good as ever and has a lot of neat support moves. Bell yeah.

No. The typing + EQ immune is enough to give it a niche as a supporter / TR setter thing.
Reuniclus 3 -> 4
yes

Yes. It hasnt done much in awhile.

yes, got worse with hoopa tho a natural safety goggles is cool

yes

Yeah, it has a lot of competition as a TR setter and isn't bulky enough to make use of it's good offensive calcs. Speaking of which, did you know Reuniclus Gyro Ball KO's Mega Diancie?

Yes. Its offensive capability isn't really enough to make up for its less bulk compared to other setters, it can't really actually get away with using its offensive potential due to not being bulky enough. In addition, Hoopa-U exists @_@
Tyranitar 4 -> UR
no

No. Difficult to use but prevalence of fire types as well as Hoopa-U makes it a threat to some forms of semiroom and I think its something worth exploring a little more.

yes free mence for it to be vrank worthy again

no

Going to say no, I still think it has a lot of redeeming qualities and good coverage, people just need to learn how to incorporate it into teams properly.

No. While it does get owned by a good part of the meta, I'd say that it still has a few things going for it like its coverage and Flying resist. It's hard to use though lol.
Gothitelle 4 -> UR
yes

No. Perish Trap can be threathening because of this mon and even some TR builds are able to use this pokemon's trapping skills effectively. I have seen croven get some good traps and kills going on his TR team with this.

yes its literally figuratively deadweight outside stag

not a fucking chance. people play against perish trap so badly this thing may as well be tier 1

I think Shadow Tag is enough to keep it in 4, it sets it apart from the other mons that fulfill it's role. Is also part of the only viable Perish team.

No. STag is enough to keep it hanging there. It's kind of ignorable though but trapping is pretty dangerous. It also has neat stuff like Thunder Wave, I guess?
Manaphy 4 -> UR
yes

Abstain

abstain

no

yeah, super linear and wants to spam surf but thats really bad

No. Tail Glow can work somewhat effectively. It really struggles because of being pressed for coverage and being useless without a boost though.
Rhydon 3 -> 4
yes

Abstain

yes lrod shenanigans are dope but not useful enough for tier 3

yes

yeah, double 4x weakness really isn't cool

Yes. Lightning Rod is neat but not really enough to make it 3 material imo. It's a bit passive and ignorable too. Its bulk's p nifty though.
Raikou 4 -> UR
no

Yes. Yea this mon hasnt really seen much usage much throughout the year and even back then it was underwhelming

yes, but it looks cool

no

no, i think its speed tier is really nice and snarl/reflect set is pretty neat

No. Raikou still has its uses. It's a fast Electric that doesn't have a Rock and Ice weakness, it has nice access to Snarl, and its Special Defense and Special Attack are good enough.
Jellicent 3 -> 4
no

No. Goggles Jellicent is a cool mon that blanket checks multiple members of THALK/CHALK

no, dicked by hoopa and walled by volcanion, but it has some cool features like wisp and a normal immunity + cursed body can pull clutch

no

no, has a theoretical good matchups against thalk teams and is fairly versatile with team options

No. It has some good matchups and it's a decent TR setter. It has a good number of nifty stuff too like Recover and Will-O-Wisp.
Excadrill 4 -> UR
no

Abstain

yeah it sucks

yes

yeah, even on tyranitar teams i don't think its amazing and ttar teams are niche as is.

Yes. Its only real use is as a Sand Rush Pokemon, which sucks because it stacks weaknesses with Tyranitar lol. Tyranitar itself is already pretty bad so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Greninja 4 -> UR
yes

Abstain

yeah it sucks

i cant believe this was a nomination lol. no.

nah, it has enough coverage to be viable in very specific matchups and you can tailor it really easily to meet team needs

No. It has some neat coverage and is p fast + STAB on everything's p hot. Its Special Attack is only average though.
Hariyama 4 -> UR
yes

Abstain

no, fuck off

abstain

yeah, its cool in duu but it just gets dumped on by most of the common mons

No lol. Hariyama's hot shit. It's a pretty nifty Fake Out Pokemon for slower teams and has some good things going for it like its higher power compared to Scrafty and access to stuff like Feint and Wide Guard.
Raichu 4 -> UR
no

Abstain

no, super fast fake out + lrod + some nifty support options = tier 4

abstain

yeah, doesn't generate enough momentum. maybe if it ate more pancakes

No. Shenanigans with (the threat of) Fake Out, Feint, and Encore can be pretty annoying lol. Nuzzle and Lightning Rod are two good things it has going for it too. It's frail though lol. It's perfectly at home in 4.
Talonflame 1 -> 1.5
yes

No. Still really good at tearing holes through teams and performing lategame cleanup solidly. It also greatly threathens a lot of mons on semiroom which arent the best with their defense stat.

abstain. hi checkmater :)

yes

yeah, doesn't stick around very long and certainly isn't centralizing, loses hard to genies

Abstain. As much as possible, I try to avoid abstaining, but this is a case where I'm just really torn. Can't we have a Tier 1.25? Talonflame's really good at applying pressure, BB's really good at forcing damage and it can almost always provide a "way out". However, its just too frail, giving it less room for error compared to other stuff and its matchups against stuff can depend on if it can actually threaten shit at all. I thought hard about this one but alas :pirate:
Azumarill 1.5 -> 1
unsure

Abstain

yeah, provider of the most undeserved wins of all time.

yes

could have sworm we just voted on this but yes this thing is dumb

Yes. We're literally suspecting this lol. While it does need redirection to be really effective, you still have to respect it when playing because a BD can end up smashing a lot of holes against you if not beating you outright. It also does have some applications outside of BD like Knock Off maybe and just checking some threats in general.
Latios 1.5 -> 2
unsure

No. Dragon types are really sick at the moment thanks to the fire resist and ability to nuke with Draco Metoer. This one also happens to outspeed all other dragons. While being walled by Jirachi may suck I still think this is an outstanding mon.

no. personally i think its underrated atm, but not enough for tier 1

yes

yeah, gets walled to death by steels and dies to sucker, etc

No. It's pretty good. Its high Speed and power can be pretty dangerous still, and it can just nuke teams with Draco + as an attacker, it can also some defensive stuff thanks to its nifty Dragon typing. Tailwind's pretty nifty to have too, and Steels, especially Heatran, aren't totally safe since it can also run HP Ground p well. (granted it's still manageable at only 2x SE)
Porygon2 3 -> 2
unsure

Abstain

yes its one of the best trick room setters atm and has a misleading damage output in that it does more than 0 but not quite enough to be very frightening

yes

Yes, its a lot of personal bias but I think if Azumarill winds up being banned we'll see P2 rise into being really good as things get bulkier.

Yes. It's p neat, one of the stuff at the bottom of 2 imo. It's a really good TR setter, one of the bulkiest around, and its coverage makes it respectable as a threat on the field + download can patch up its SpA. Still, its only real use is as a TR setter and at times it can be pretty weak. Typing offers zero too.
Deoxys-A 2 -> 1.5
leaning towards no

Yes. I started using it more lately and honestly I dont know why I stopped using it. Fantastic pokemon that tears through teams thanks to its coverage and strong psycho boost. I think the glass argument is dumb because of how much a sash helps an offensive powerhouse like Deo-A esp when you also have support in Fake Out and Follow Me. People used to lead this pokemon a lot but personally I found that threat of Deo-a in the back as even more scary as a late game sash lets you guaranteed survive and deal with any late game problem threats and lets it clean up.

no its glass

no

No, is always a good mon in theory but isn't splashable and doesn't stick around enough. Often comes in as a late game cleaner but that's dependant on building an early lead.

No lol. This is glass? Can't really stick around long enough. Threatening pos though.
Suicune 3 -> 4
no

No

yes, but not lower cuz its reliable as shit for twind which will likely be a more threatening comp soon imo

yes

Nah, 3 is fine as bulky Tailwind and Water typing are still valuable

No. Tts bulk and Water-typing is pretty nice + it's really jesus at getting Tailwind up. It can be passive at times but Snarl is annoying and makes people give it respect.
Infernape 2 -> 3
yes

Abstain

yes its got a cool blend of qualities that make it a worthwhile option but its not tier 2 good

yes

Yeah, I haven't built with it in forever and kinda gets dicked by a ton of common things.

Yes. Fake Out + Encore is pretty nifty as is its coverage, but its frailty and vulnerability to a good number of stuff in the metagame holds it back.
Diancie 4 -> 3
yes

Abstain

yes its a very strong tr setter and doesnt get owned by intimdate and resists hoopa

no

yes, fairy tr is cool

Yes. Neat typing which gives it potential on the offensive and defensive end has potential. DStorms on TR + Clear Body which prevents Intim from being counterplay is pretty annoying.
Scrafty 2 -> 1.5
yes

No

no, too owned by gard and loses hp way too quick and too weak but its quite good ngl

yes

no, isn't really versatile and ends up being really passive

No. Owned by a good number of things like MGard + it can end up being passive at times. Intimidate, Fake Out, Knock Off, and possibly Quick Guard is pretty neat though, and its bulk lets it take on certain foes with a coverage move on its last slot.
Ferrothorn 2 -> 1.5
can we fucking blacklist this? better yet can i nom to drop this garbage

No. Too many fire types that have become a centerpiece of the metagame makes this mon simply too hard to reach 1.5 status

no fuck off whoever nommed this

no

no please stop

No. It gets owned by Fire-types lul. While its ability to possibly win games on its own is neat, it just gets owned if the opp has a Fire-type, which is most teams actually, and its coverage leaves it walled by Steels too, making it bait for the likes of (Sub) Heatran, (Sub) Aegislash, and Jirachi. It can just get overloaded at times @_@. Never nom this again please.
Mega Swampert 3 -> 4
yes

Abstain

yeah it sucks i been sayin

yes

yeah, way too linear in its sets and isn't really all that successful lately

Yes. It's the second rate Rain sweeper lol. There's really not much reason to use this over the two special Swift Swimmers except for the neat Thunder Wave immunity.
Venusaur 3 -> 4
no

Abstain

see above

no

yeah, venu sun has never been that good imo, relies way too much on 75%

Yes. Stacks weaknesses to a lesser degree. Its real usefulness also has 75% accuracy.
Darkrai 3 -> 4
yes

Abstain

yes major 4mss and lacks good spread options or single target nukes which is what u want from attackers

yes

yeah, ive never used it or really seen it used

Yes. For a glass attacker, it's kind of lacking in power and damage potential. While it has neat coverage and some nifty support options, it can't really run all of them which means it'll struggle to hit everything it wants to. It's neat though ---
Gourgeist-Super 4 -> UR
no

Abstain

no its a good tr setter

yes

no, it does a lot of cool things and is also adorable.

No. I guess it's alright as a TR setter that can last and has an immunity to Spore. Barely hanging at 4 though, imo.
Mega Lucario 4 -> UR
yes

Abstain

yea its too frail and awkward typing and shit tho it hits hard as a motherfucker

yes

yeah, it's frail and gets trashed by genies, not worth a mega slot

No. Its high Speed and ability to hit like a truck makes it worth using. It's frail and gets owned by stuff like Talonflame and genies though lol.
Sableye 4 -> UR
no

Abstain

ye it sucks but prio wisp is sexy

no

yea its bad

No. Priority Wisp is still pretty nifty + it can end up walling stuff like Mega Kangaskhan. Can get owned by special attackers though.
Landorus-I 2 -> 3
no

No. I think this mon is actually pretty solid right now. Thanks to Jirachi and Volcanion both being super common threats. Main drawback being you cant run Lando-T but like seriously people need to stop thinking they cant win a game without Lando-t

no fuck off

yes

yeah, intimidate is really really really good and i think lando i is good but certainly niche.

No. It's a pretty damn strong attacker and fits well on builds that already has an Intimidate user and doesn't want to create a hole against Bisharp lol.
Jynx UR -> 4
no

No. Unless i see more of this I would rather not rank this sorry.

no fuck off holy shit why is this here to everyone who dick rode this nom to relevancy seriously stop it

no

this has to be a meme nom right? no

No. Get good kid.
Gastrodon 3 -> 2
yes

Abstain

no but its a clean choice on semiroom comps and is a threat that shouldnt be overlooked

abstain

no, has always been solid in theory but loses a lot of damage trades and wants 5 moves way too badly

No. It's pretty solid and is probably one of the better ones in 3 but it's not really enough for 2. Feels a bit squishy and the Grass weakness sucks
Ludicolo 2 -> 3 -> 4
no

3. Kingdra is the better rain mon tbh and rain hasnt been having much of a splash lately because of azumarill being ever present and Jirachi redirecting the grass moves from Ludi anyway.

to 3, and like yeah cuz kingdra is the better choice in the meta and u really dont want both on the same team imo because riding or dying with the toed rain is not cool

3, rain is slightly viable

ludi should be 3, it's really threatening on one kind of team, has to compete with kingra, but the thing it has on kingra is not having to rely on inaccurate moves

3. It doesn't have the nifty spread damage that Kingdra has but the typing + Fake Out is pretty nifty to have.
Mega Mawile UR -> 4
yes

Abstain

no i mean i can see the argument but like u got soooooo many better choices like why?

yes

sure, it does enough unique things and has a cool typing

No. It really hates facing Steel- and Fire-types + it gets owned by a lot of faster stuff, most notably Landorus-T. It's a nuke, but it's also pretty easy to stop. Its special bulk is also depressing at times, that 50 HP's holding it back :(
Sylveon 2 -> 1.5
yes

No

no slow and physically frail but threatening enough for 2

yes

no, its best sets get dicked by wide guard, and with all the steel/fire mons being used it ends up being hard for it to shine

No. It's good but not 1.5 good. Gets walled by Fires and Steels, owned by Wide Guard, and it's slow and physically frail. It can be threatening with CM though and the offensive sets can hurt.
Gengar 1.5 -> 2
no

No. Sash gar is an amazing offensive support mon that blanket checks and and does a number to multiple pokemon in the tier. I find it fitting in pretty nicely in building esp on like slot 4 or 5 in building.

yeah glass af and definitely doesnt have the qualities of a tier 1.5

yes

yeah, doesn't really check enough and isn't something people have to consciously teambuild around

Yes. This is glass. While it can be annoying with Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, and Icy Wind, it can only really last for a short amount of time. Special attackers tend to care less in general too.

Final Changes:
Mega Charizard-X 2 -> 3
Cresselia 3 -> 2
Virizion 3 -> 4
Reuniclus 3 -> 4
Rhydon 3 -> 4
Excadrill 4 -> UR
Talonflame 1 -> 1.5
Azumarill 1.5 -> 1
Porygon2 3 -> 2
Infernape 2 -> 3
Diancie 4 -> 3
Mega Swampert 3 -> 4
Venusaur 3 -> 4
Darkrai 3 -> 4
Mega Lucario 4 -> UR
Ludicolo 2 -> 3
Mega Mawile UR -> 4
Gengar 1.5 -> 2

On a sidenote qsns has decided to resign from his duties on VR council so this will be his last vote
 
ok we are officially caught up on VR votes now. there were some that were missed among the mess of earlier noms that are getting made up now as well.

voting order: Memoric, shaian, SamVGC, kamikaze, Dawg

Mega Blastoise UR -> 4
No, it's trash. There's a lot of better megas out there. Its mediocre; not really that threatening offensively, not the that fast, bulk is aight but that's the only real thing it has going for it.

No, it's meh.

yes, it has some surprisingly good matchups and good coverage options

No. Outclassed by many other Water-types and megas

Yes, has multiple roles that other water types cannot undertake, including applying consistent pressure, and foxing whether it is mega in team preview.
Typhlosion UR --> 4
No, -

No, wtf?

yes typhlosion is the best

No. pretty much a meme

No. pretty much a meme
Serperior 4 -> UR
No, this thing can actually own and it's something you don't wanna give free turns lol. I'd say it's in the upper echoleon of 4

No, but it's lame af

unfortunately as much as i hate this mon, no since its role is rather unique

No, but its still underwhelming and will have trouble with all the fire types running around. Fast Glare is cool though

Yes, AUsterrain style teams probably deserve to be tier 4 in this format.
Darkrai 4 -> UR
No, this is one of the better things in 4 too lol. It has speed, coverage, and access to support moves which does give it a good enough niche. What really holds it back is its defensive typing, frailty, and lack of a really powerful move, but those things don't make it UR material since it still has its applications here and there; a shame, it's my fave mon too (ಥ﹏ಥ)

No, but man imagine if there was like a dark type equivalent of draco meteor that'd be heat for darkrai

no, fills a rather unique role even though its trash

No. Dark, Ice Coverage and wisp is pretty cool and being a special attacker is nice. Honestly should try building with this more

No. Honestly surprised not to see this more, has interesting relationships with breloom / amoongus which im surprised havent been explored further
Weavile 3 -> 2
No, it's really frail and without Sash it's piss af lol. It can be threatening offensively and can pressure stuff for partners but other than that, it's doesn't really dothat much.

No, it's fuckin ace tho

no, doesnt stick around long enough to make it a tier two threat

No. You would think an Offensive Ice type would be good but it doesnt have that great offensive pressure in reality without a boosting item. Being a physical attacker with average of 90 base power moves suck and it gets stomped on by too many threats on the metagame. Dark Ice stabs are good coverage though in certain situations if you can position it properly though.

Has massive offensive pressure of almost the entire tier, probably still deserves its spot in tier 2.
Final Changes:
None
 
The rankings are pretty good right now, but there is one thing that stands out to me

Diancie-Mega 1 -> 1.5: This mon really isn't as good as it was in its post-Skymin glory days. It has a ton of things that beat it even when paired with a redirector. AzuRachi being everywhere right now also doesn't help it, as not just the fact that both mons win 1v1, but many of the things that beat Diancie are also used as checks to these mons (Aegislash, Volcanion, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, etc.) It is also not nearly as threatening as the other megas in Tier 1 (or other mons in general) As Gard has a way stronger spread move and isn't neutered by Lando, Zard has a much more powerful spread move and can get around its checks with the appropriate coverage, and Kanga is kanga, and as such is always threatening. Diancie is also very one dimensional, and it will always run the same three Diamond Storm/Moonblast/Earth Power. While it is pretty good coverage, it is pretty easily walled by steels (EP really doesn't hit that hard since you will generally invest more into attack. Diancie is still threatening, it just isn't really as threatening as the things in 1, and is way more comparable to mons in 1.5 such as Hoopa and Talon when it comes to preparing for them.
 
Could we just remove tier 4? Its just a bunch of shitmons with incredibly specific niches that people like to theorize about but nobody has actually managed to incorporate into a good team or shit that was slightly less that awful like 3 years ago. If you wanna use something like raichu go nuts, but having it on list designed to help newer players seems kinda dumb.
 
It's also pretty important to tell new users that certain mons are worse than other mons. That was the reasoning behind "please don't," since people didn't see maw and dnite on the vranks and just assumed we forgot to add them rather than them being unviable.
 
In some ways i agree with Big_Danny_Mason. Tier 4 basically states, "Maybe, I'll have a chance in DUU." At the same time, I feel that it is important to show new players, especially players coming from Battle Spot Doubles, to show that the infamous Japanese Sand (Mega Mence + ExcaTar + Azu + Aegis + Amoonguss) or even a variation of it is in fact a thing of dreams in the DOU Tier. I think "Tier 4" is not intimidating enough for new players; what they need is a bold red "Tier F"
 
Test Bot # said:
In some ways i agree with Big_Danny_Mason. Tier 4 basically states, "Maybe, I'll have a chance in DUU." At the same time, I feel that it is important to show new players, especially players coming from Battle Spot Doubles, to show that the infamous Japanese Sand (Mega Mence + ExcaTar + Azu + Aegis + Amoonguss) or even a variation of it is in fact a thing of dreams in the DOU Tier. I think "Tier 4" is not intimidating enough for new players; what they need is a bold red "Tier F"
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There are a lot of problems with this mentality and the idea of vranks being presented in this thread. 1) this has nothing to do with DUU lol. 2) Being in tier 4 doesn't mean something is so bad you should never use it. They have a niche or it'd get the boot like Mega Lucario or Typhlosion or Jynx. Vranks as a whole also aren't just a resource for new players, its a picture of what our meta looks like and I think the way we have it set up is perfectly fine. Tier 4 isn't meant to be good mons but everything there has some sort of niche thats relevant enough that the VR council said its fine.
 
miltankmilk said:
There are a lot of problems with this mentality and the idea of vranks being presented in this thread. 1) this has nothing to do with DUU lol. 2) Being in tier 4 doesn't mean something is so bad you should never use it. They have a niche or it'd get the boot like Mega Lucario or Typhlosion or Jynx. Vranks as a whole also aren't just a resource for new players, its a picture of what our meta looks like and I think the way we have it set up is perfectly fine. Tier 4 isn't meant to be good mons but everything there has some sort of niche thats relevant enough that the VR council said its fine.
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I admit, i went overboard. Well said.
 
Aegislash 1 -> 1.5

On one hand, this thing has pseudo-720 BST, resists a ton of types, and has awesome coverage. On the other, it's moveset is bad (it's highest bp attack is 80, can't status/control speed/set up unless you're the bad physical set, no spread moves, and the only move that benefits allies is wide guard), is weak to a lot of common offensive moves, and often finds itself in an awkward speed circumstance that prevents it from taking advantage of its form change.

I make it sound bad when I say all that, but trust me I don't think Aegislash is bad. More often than not Aegislash manages to chunk a lot of total health from the opponent before it faints, and is also one of the best substitute users in the game. Ideally, the main function of Aegislash is dealing a lot of damage over lots and lots of turns. I just don't think it does this function well enough for a tier 1 mon when its highest bp move is 80 and has no spread attacks.

King's Shield is not really a reason to keep this in tier 1 (i.e. doesn't make up for its movepool) when the only prominent physical attacker that realistically touches this is what, Azu at +6 and Talonflame? Even Talon will very rarely target this if it hasn't used KS the turn before and will usually opt to target the ally. I haven't seen KS lower attack recently except Azu going from +6 to +4 and killing it in the following turn. 97% of the time it's a "revert to shield + protect" move that risks getting status'd or taunted.

Wide guard is a double-edged sword (sword hehe). While it does block its most common weak-to attacks and your ally, it interferes with KS probability and doesn't revert your form if you're in blade. It's definitely not flexible with it which in my eyes lowers its viability.

Despite all this it's still amazing and I probably don't have to explain why it shouldn't be below 1.5.
 
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Hi there, Mega Gengar -> 1.5

I've been using this recently and I think this Pokemon is hella underrated right now. Trapping is super good, especially in DOU where positioning is crazy important. Heck, one good trap can outright win you the game or give you so much momentum that it'll be hard for your opp to come back; for example, allowing azu to set up without using Jirachi, removing rachi on your opp's team so they can't set up with azu as easily, or removing like an amoonguss/ferrothorn for rain. It also has a good matchup against a lot of common mons (Gardevoir, Jirachi after chip damage, Mega Kanga if you have wisp, etc etc). Setup mons are also a pretty big thing now (cm sylv, cm cress is starting to become a thing again, azu) which makes gengar's trapping pretty nice.

perish song is cool too i guess,,,
 
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