Doubles Overview, Benchmarks, and Q&A Thread—Read before asking!

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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Use Priority. Or Trick Room. That's a shitty gimmick, albeit a funny one to watch.
 
We have gone through a few analyses of the last generation. They make us wonder how you come to think that certain Pokemon make better offensive TR setter than others. Chandelure, Jellicent and Slowking all have maximum SAtk. While it is not surprising in the case of Chandelure because it has the bulk of wet paper, Jellicent is quite surprising because the first attacking option is Scald and not Water Spout.

Point: We want to find out how good Trevenant fares as a a TR setter or anti-TR, thanks to Imprison and immunity to Fake Out as well as its rather middling speed. Would it rather want to maximize its bulk or have more Atk? Or rather a combination of Adamant nature and defensive EV spread?
 

Level 51

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We have gone through a few analyses of the last generation. They make us wonder how you come to think that certain Pokemon make better offensive TR setter than others. Chandelure, Jellicent and Slowking all have maximum SAtk. While it is not surprising in the case of Chandelure because it has the bulk of wet paper, Jellicent is quite surprising because the first attacking option is Scald and not Water Spout.

Point: We want to find out how good Trevenant fares as a a TR setter or anti-TR, thanks to Imprison and immunity to Fake Out as well as its rather middling speed. Would it rather want to maximize its bulk or have more Atk? Or rather a combination of Adamant nature and defensive EV spread?
Generally Trevenant is used as a TR setter since it is somewhat outclassed outside of Trick Room in terms of offensive pressure (Breloom has a better attacking STAB if you want a Grass-type; in general Grass isn't too useful an attacking type) and in bulk (Mega Venusaur >>>> all!!!). Under Trick Room, we usually run a Brave nature with 44 Attack EVs to guarantee an OHKO on 252/0 Rotom-W, placing the rest in bulk. I hope I managed to clear this up; if I somehow misunderstood your question feel free to ask!
 
Generally Trevenant is used as a TR setter since it is somewhat outclassed outside of Trick Room in terms of offensive pressure (Breloom has a better attacking STAB if you want a Grass-type; in general Grass isn't too useful an attacking type) and in bulk (Mega Venusaur >>>> all!!!). Under Trick Room, we usually run a Brave nature with 44 Attack EVs to guarantee an OHKO on 252/0 Rotom-W, placing the rest in bulk. I hope I managed to clear this up; if I somehow misunderstood your question feel free to ask!
To be fair, we asked it in a kinda cryptic way.

Our question was when a TR setter is better of more defensive or offensive. We tried to find a pattern in the past analyses although it is not always easy to see why like in the Jellicent example who only 2HKOs Chandelure no matter if 252+ or 0 SAtk (it kills Azelf but we have never seed Azelf in Doubles or VGC).
If we try to force Trevenant into a role in which it is not completely outclassed by Gourgeist, it would be Wood Hammer, as you have said (indirectly), which makes it inherently more offensive in nature. Its other perk would be Imprison, a niche it may or may not be outclassed by Dusknoir. It can use Phantom Force in order to stick around longer with Imprison and to bypass any attempt to Protect but we yet have to test how much of a gimmick it is.

One more interesting question you have brought up is if having -Speed is really that necessary. Running minimum speed forces you to always setup in order to play your big guns. Isn't a team more flexible when it only sets TR when your opponent is faster than it and when it plays against opposing TR teams like a normal one?

Not very simple questions but there is no TR discussion in this forum.
 
There's a buttload of TR discussion actually if you look in the old Gen5 stuff.

Also, why are you referring to yourself as a collective "We"?
 
Ranulf gave me the idea to try out an Eviolite'd, Friend Guard Clefairy. I had to breed it in White 2 to get Helping Hand. Do you guys think any of its other tutor moves would be useful?

It gets:

Telekinesis
Work Up
Bounce
Drain Punch
Endeavor
Fire Punch
Heal Bell
Hyper Voice
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Tail
Knock Off
Last Resort
Magic Coat
Recycle
Role Play
Signal Beam
Snatch
Snore
Stealth Rock
Thunder Punch
Trick
Wonder Room
Zen Headbutt
 

Electrolyte

Wouldn't Wanna Know
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Ranulf gave me the idea to try out an Eviolite'd, Friend Guard Clefairy. I had to breed it in White 2 to get Helping Hand. Do you guys think any of its other tutor moves would be useful?

It gets:

Telekinesis
Work Up
Bounce
Drain Punch
Endeavor
Fire Punch
Heal Bell
Hyper Voice
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Tail
Knock Off
Last Resort
Magic Coat
Recycle
Role Play
Signal Beam
Snatch
Snore
Stealth Rock
Thunder Punch
Trick
Wonder Room
Zen Headbutt
I assume you have a specific reason for using Clefairy, as it's quite a subpar Pokemon that lacks place in the competitive environment.

Out of those listed tutor moves, Icy Wind, Knock Off, and Heal Bell are probably the most useful. With its low stats, attacking is definitely not an option, since it won't do much damage anyway. Instead, let it take on the role of bulky support. With Icy Wind to lower both your opponents' Speed stats, Knock Off to rip off items, and Heal Bell to cleanse off status, Clefairy can do an acceptable job.

Good luck with whatever you need it for!
 

Level 51

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I assume you have a specific reason for using Clefairy, as it's quite a subpar Pokemon that lacks place in the competitive environment.
To be fair, Clefairy with Heal Pulse/Helping Hand/Thunder Wave/Follow Me with an Eviolite can work wonders. Yes, I tried it. Yes, it works.
 
Friend Guard is super potent and I wish Clefable got it too.

That's all I really need to say about it I think.

Also, I think GF needs to wake up and make HH an egg move for Togepi. :/
 
I assume you have a specific reason for using Clefairy, as it's quite a subpar Pokemon that lacks place in the competitive environment.

Out of those listed tutor moves, Icy Wind, Knock Off, and Heal Bell are probably the most useful. With its low stats, attacking is definitely not an option, since it won't do much damage anyway. Instead, let it take on the role of bulky support. With Icy Wind to lower both your opponents' Speed stats, Knock Off to rip off items, and Heal Bell to cleanse off status, Clefairy can do an acceptable job.

Good luck with whatever you need it for!
I'll try some of those moves on Showdown and see how it works out. I forgot I could do that xd Thank you.

To be fair, Clefairy with Heal Pulse/Helping Hand/Thunder Wave/Follow Me with an Eviolite can work wonders. Yes, I tried it. Yes, it works.
Helping Hand + Heal Pulse is illegal, unfortunately :/ Those were the first two moves I wanted to put on it. I hope we get tutor moves back in the next game.

I ended up going with Helping Hand, Reflect, Thunder Wave, and Moonblast. Moonblast is surprisingly decent when it's SE.

0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 126-150 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 92-110 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- 50.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 128-152 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 61.9% chance to 3HKO

Greninja survived a Helping Handed Sludge Bomb from a Gengar with Clefairy on the field. I will call that a success.
 
Hey guys, first time post, hoping you could help me out with my doubles team. I have 5 guys set up and need a 6th. I've been using this team in the Ratings Battles and have been doing quite well with a Tyranitar sitting in the 6th place, but never have I used him.

The strategy is to have an offensive, slow, specially defensive core. Using Trick Room, Burn and Intimidate to keep me physically defensive as well. Doesn't matter what's coming at you physically, if you burn it, then drop two intimidates on it's face, it's only going to flick you.

I call it: The Intimidation Room

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The core. These three so far have come with me every fight and have never let me down.

Dusclops@Eviolite
Calm 252HP/252SpD/4Def
Abl:Pressure
Will-O-Wisp
Pain Split
Night Shade
Trick Room

He is my first lead along with Amoonguss. Start off with the Trick Room, then Will-O whomever I deem the most physical threat, normally switched out after.

Amoonguss@Black Sludge
Sassy 252HP/252SpD/4Def
IVs: 0Spe
Abl:Regenerator
Giga Drain
Protect
Rage Powder
Spore

Always the other lead, him and Dusky synergize so well. Protect first turn always, second turn use Spore on whoever Dusclops doesn't Will-O. Sometimes If they swap out to another phys attacker I bring Dusky back out ASAP.

Scrafty@Assault Vest
IVs: 0Spe
Sassy 252HP/252Atk/4SpD
Abl:Intimidate
Drain Punch
Crunch
Poison Jab
Fake Out

Always comes with me as the other two have been my swaps for required coverage. This guy however has great survivability and damage. With Will-O Support and Intimidate, nothing physical will get through, and with the Assault Vest, nothing Speacial does either. Any damage he does take gets refilled with drain punch.

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Now for the two megas. I swap these two in as needed for coverage depending on what the opponent has. Both of them have intimidate and play into the trick room pretty well.

Mawile@Mawilite
Adamant 252HP/252Atk/4Def
Abl:Intimidate - Mega:Huge Power
Sucker Punch
Play Rough
Iron Head
Fire Fang

The first of my megas, comes with intimidate then does gigantic damage. I love this guy, coverage is nice too.

Gyarados@Gyaradosite
Sassy 236HP/16Atk/4Def/252SpD
IVs: 0Spe
Abl:Intimidate - Mega:Mold Breaker
Aqua Tail
Bite
Stone Edge
Ice Fang


The other mega, used if I feel the coverage would be better. He's nice and bulky even before going mega allowing me to take advantage of his Intimidates on multiple switch ins, once I'm down to the point of not needing them he goes mega and provides the sweep.

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So I need your help to decide on a 6th. I've though about another Trick Room setter, but Dusclops has literally never let me down, so I don't feel it necessary. I've though about going for Salamence to play into the Intimidate theme, but I don't feel he would really be adding anything to the team. I've also thought about playing into the theme of mega swapping and using Mega Ampharos or Mega Abomasnow or Mega Abomasnow. I've even though of going out of the box with Gengar or some other random, non-trick reliant sweeper. Nothing seems to click for me.

If you have any ideas, or any tips in general about my team please let me know, I could use the feedback. Especially if you see any blatant weaknesses I may have.
 
This isn't the best place for a team like this. Try SQSA or the RMT section.

Also, Bisharp craps all over your team, being a great anti TR mon already, and benefitting from Inyimidate.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
You got trolled; just learn from it and know next time you see a delcatty in preview what that means, and stop using a shitty 0 atk jumpluff set. If you're ready for the strategy (such as faking out gengar turn1 instead of delcatty) then you can't lose to it
 
How does Prankster + Quick Guard fare against Fake Out? Does Quick Guard get the +1 to priority or do Pranksters still need to speed creep for Fake Out? We have read many opinions about that one and are current 50/50.
 
quick guard doesnt need prankster to stop fake out. quick guard is +4 priority and fake out is +3, so quick guard always goes first

EDIT: oops my bad.
 
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actually quick guard is +3 priority, the same as fake out, so the quick guard user has to be faster to stop the opposing fake out. This is why Pokemon like terrakion and keldeo make good quick guard users - they are faster than common fake out users like mega kanga and hitmontop.

so prankster quick guard would give you a guaranteed stop to fake out, no matter the speeds of the respective Pokemon. Could be interesting, but probably not something I'd use just for that when the option of quick guard terrakion - which not only stops all fake out users anyway, but is a massive threat in its own right - is available to me.
 
I asked this in VGC but it's relevant here so: Do people typically run Mega Kangaskhan with full speed investment? Or, like, is there a specific threat that it tries to outrun?
 
Mega Kanga typically run Max Speed with an Adamant nature. Half of its moveset is priority, so power is more important in the long run.

Plus, sooooo many Pokemon share the base 100 Speed tier so it's generally not worth chancing a Speed tie when you can just hurt stuff.
 
Does Dazzling Gleam get the Technician boost? It has on 60 BP when used as a spread move but some of you may know better.
 
Does Dazzling Gleam get the Technician boost? It has on 60 BP when used as a spread move but some of you may know better.
No, it doesn't. The move has to have 60 base power, not simply have its damage reduced to 60. So moves like Rock Blast, Aerial Ace and Icy Wind are boosted, but moves like Dazzling Gleam and Drain Punch aren't.
 

Anty

let's drop
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Ive recently getting into and getting good ok at doubles.
Two things, firstly, is there any niche for detect. I say this because i see people posting about it on conk, who also learns protect, the only difference i see is that protect has twice the pp?
Also, (this may sound cocky?) but what is the rank that there are proper doubles players? i have played around 10 games, and i haven't seen a proper player and i wanna actually see if i am good. Still better than the ubers ladder

 
Ive recently getting into and getting good ok at doubles.
Two things, firstly, is there any niche for detect. I say this because i see people posting about it on conk, who also learns protect, the only difference i see is that protect has twice the pp?
Also, (this may sound cocky?) but what is the rank that there are proper doubles players? i have played around 10 games, and i haven't seen a proper player and i wanna actually see if i am good. Still better than the ubers ladder
Imprison usually blocks Protect if used. Its somewhat pointless, but hey why not just in case?
I think the ladder moreso has better people on at certain times of day/week than rating, but I guess 1550ish starts to get more interesting. Try going on irc and asking for battles too!
 

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