Doubles Overview, Replays, & EV Benchmarks

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Pocket

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#1
Doubles


VS

Ever since ADV, doubles has steadily gained headway into the competitive Pokemon scene. Every generation GameFreak has refined the Doubles metagame and by the fifth generation it has ripened considerably. It's a shame that the only widely supported version of this format (VGC) is one over which the players have no control! However, with the awesome Pokemon Showdown! now supporting Doubles format, we now have all the tools necessary to mold our own version of the format that made VGC so popular and help shape our own Standard Doubles metagame!

THE RULES

Moderator's Note: Do not use this thread to directly compare Smogon Doubles to VGC. You can certainly talk about VGC strategies and how they can be applied to Smogon Doubles, but do not use this thread to bicker about the differences between the two metagames.
Note that, rather than following many of the conventions which Nintendo and VGC have laid out, we will be experimenting and setting new rules and bans, so many things are slightly different. Here are some noteworthy difference from the ruleset of current VGC 2013:

1) 6 vs 6 instead of 4 vs 4
2) Pokemon default level 100 instead of level 50
3) Sleep Clause ON
4) Item Clause OFF
5) OHKO Clause ON
6) Evasion Clause ON
7) Soul Dew Clause ON
8) Moody Clause ON
9) The following moves are banned from play
  • Dark Void
  • Sky Drop
10) The following Pokemon are banned from play
  • Mewtwo
  • Lugia
  • Ho-oh
  • Kyogre
  • Groudon
  • Rayquaza
  • Dialga
  • Palkia
  • Giratina, Giratina-O
  • Arceus
  • Reshiram
  • Zekrom
  • Kyurem-White
As you may have figured out by now, this will be a drastically different metagame from the more familiar VGC metagame. VGC knowledge will certainly be beneficial, but a handful of new additional battle pieces will certainly alter the face of Doubles.

DOUBLES BASICS

The true gem of Doubles does not lie in such minute differences in rulesets - it's the various strategies that are born and made viable by the virtue of having an additional partner and an extra opponent on the battle field simultaneously. Such battle setting results in a fast and furious play unimaginable in Singles play. If you think you have time to dilly dally with setting up hazards and some brainless volt-turn spam, think again! Since so much happens in a span of a single turn, on-the-spot decision making and intuition are tested heavily in Doubles. A thrilling new challenge unfounded in Singles!

Another major appeal of Doubles is the increased viability and deeper nuances of Pokemon moves. Here are some quick overview of such moves:

Protect - Undoubtedly the most important move in Doubles; it shields whatever moves targeted at the user and without the need to blindly switch out and let another one of your Pokemon to take a hit, too! A well-executed Protect means wasted turns for the opponent, whose attacks utterly fail to do anything while your other Pokemon can ideally take the attacker out. Protect also shield your Pokemon against Fake Out flinches, a devastating move in Double. Stalling out Tailwind or TR turns serve as another purpose for using Protect.

Feint - With Protect being such a pivotal move in Doubles, it's no wonder that a counter-move in Feint would see some use! It comes in handy when you need to connect with the target Pokemon on that turn NO MATTER WHAT.

Fake Out - This is another prevalent move in Doubles, and it's a game-breaking one, too. A super-priority flinch move renders one of the opponent's Pokemon immobile and vulnerable to assaults. Just like in Singles, Fake Out can be seen from a mile away, but the Fake Out user can actually take advantage of this, forcing the opponent to use Protect. Fake Out's greater utility in Doubles in turn increases the value of Inner Focus.

Spread Moves - These moves target multiple Pokemon - some only affect both enemies while other spread moves also catches your ally, too. Such distinctions make otherwise obscure moves in Singles, such as Heat Wave and Rock Slide, to have a specific niche in Doubles!

All spread moves's power is reduced to 75% of its original base power (so Earthquake is a 75 bp Ground type move, while Blizzard is a 90 bp Ice type move), but this power reduction is more than compensated by hitting more than one target. When there is only one target on the field, the spread move hits the opponent with 100% of its original power.

Notable Spread Moves that Targets Only Enemies
  • Blizzard & Icy Wind
  • Rock Slide
  • Heat Wave & Eruption
  • Muddy Water & Water Spout
  • Dark Void (banned)
Notable Spread Moves that Target Enemies and Ally alike
  • Explosion & Selfdestruct
  • Earthquake
  • Lava Plume
  • Surf
  • Discharge
Wide Guard / Quick Guard - BW has added new protection moves to doubles. Unlike Protect, these Guard moves protect both the user AND the ally from spread moves and priority moves, respectively. This means that one Pokemon can guard for Earthquake or Fake Outs, thereby wasting the opponent's turn, while its partner can go on the offensive.

Helping Hand - A move designed specifically for Doubles, this move boosts the power of the user's ally by 50% for one turn, which can change a 2HKO into a OHKO. Such a difference is significant in Doubles, as knocking out the opponent effectively means cutting down on the opponent's offense by half for that turn. Thus, Helping Hand user pairs nicely with a fast Sweeper like Thundurus or Latios. Helping Hand has +5 priority, so the helper can be a bulky supporter like Cresselia.

Follow Me / Rage Powder - Another move tailored for Doubles, but this time all non-spread moves are re-directed to the user of Follow Me or Rage Powder, thereby keeping its partner untouched. Spread moves like Blizzard and Earthquake still hits both users, though. This move comes in handy when you are trying to set up with your other Pokemon. This support move has +3 priority, so this user can even redirect fast priorities barring faster Fake Outs to itself!

Tailwind / Icy Wind / Trick Room - Similarly to Singles, having the first move is almost always more advantageous than attacking second. Tailwind, Icy Wind, and Trick Room are prevalent moves to control Speed and attack first. Even though 4-5 turns go awfully quick in Singles to do anything productive, in Doubles it is usally half the game or more! Icy Wind is also an amazing utility move, a spread move that drops both enemies' Speed by one stage.

Offensive Moves Benefiting Partners - Most of the times your Pokemon will be throwing moves at the two enemy Pokemon, but moves exist that benefit the partner instead, similarly to the previously mentioned Helping Hand
  • Swagger aimed at Partner holding Persim/Lum Berry
  • Fire Blast / Will-o-Wisp to activate Flash Fire in the sun
RESOURCES

Check our BW Doubles Hub for helpful Smog articles and RMTs!
Smogon Doubles Speed Tiers - See whom your Pokemon is outspeeding!

Some Pro Tips by Zach / Braverius
I'm going to make a couple posts here just to outline some stuff that needs to be addressed. Talked to Pocket/Pwnemon beforehand about doing this. Turned out a bit more differently than I originally planned, but still good stuff to read and consider.

Before I start, definitions!

Format: The rules, clauses, bans, etc. of a specific type of Pokemon battles.
Metagame: The dominant, defining strategies that develop and evolve due to the format.

It's been noted and discussed for a while that metagame development is the best way to grow the playerbase and attract new players. So, in order to develop the metagame, it's important to study other doubles metagames (in this case, there's only one more developed metagame) in order to get a better understanding of where this might be headed.

I'm really into VGC, have competed for two years now and have had some good success recently. There are other players who play this tier that have the same background, and they seem to be using their same teams from VGC and doing well here. What does this imply? Two things, as I see it:

1) The metagame is not as developed, and "teams from the future!" are winning. A lot.
2) Doubles, regardless of some format tweaks, will always feature the same key concepts to doing well, such as team synergy, high-tier in-battle decisions, good team sustainability, and lots of spread moves.

The most successful players in any format or metagame are those who strive to win, which, for those players, is what they find the most fun. Others find using more uncommon teams and strategies as a better way to have fun, even though they do not win as much. VERY rarely, these uncommon teams and strategies work successfully.

People have a natural tendency to try to do their own thing, create their own identity, fight the power, rah rah. In a format and metagame that are mostly developing, it's tempting to try "different" things. However, back to my point before, to try different things and be successful at the same time, you have to understand how those different things can work based on what the current threats are. So since this is something that I've only seen briefly posted once about, I've outlined the threats that are extremely prominent in VGC and how they're impacted *for sure* by this current format (if I don't know for sure yet, I left them where they'd be in VGC. Only a couple I know for sure, and none of them are banned in VGC). It's not so that you can decipher a cute rationalization of why your team works due to the differences of formats (which is the primary reason as to why there has been some animosity towards this format); it's so that you understand what a metagame with years of development has come to, and how that metagame will mostly become this format's metagame.

When Pocket started this format, it was originally pointed out that it should be VGC's format in order to help form more of a following for double battles. However, it was decided that it would be best to simply make this a more Smogon-esque, so it was introduced as a slightly different type of format. It was a rather fun idea to open up the can of worms right away isntead, but it did cause more of a growth stunt of the metagame. Understanding how the game develops and what the set standards are (or will obviously become) is what needs to happen BEFORE you start countering the threats that you believe shouldn't be threats. The metagame should stay as is now, no need to change any of the format. However, the impact the differences between this format and VGC have on the game are more minimal than people want to believe right now, and until the threats from VGC are actually established first and grown up next to the threats from Standard Doubles, we can't figure out what

I encourage you to try the Pokemon listed under Tier 1 and Tier 2 more often than you try the other ones in Tiers 3-5. It's better to get practice with what you'll see more often as you learn, as that will help you not only learn how doubles works, but how the main threats in it work as well. Typically, as the game moves along, the vast majority of these Pokemon will pick up in usage and stay right where they are. Many will move up and down a tiny bit from time to time, and a select few will make major swings, but that will more than likely be dictated by the format's changes and tweaks.

That is why it's intriguing for a VGC player like myself to check this format out. I'm curious to see what effect testing the format will have on the competitive potential of the game, and if there is a much more ideal format out there for doubles yet to be discovered. It's a cool concept that the players can test things and see what makes the game the most fun and competitive at the same time. That's what I encourage you to embrace about this- look to taking what knowledge we already have and seeing how it can be applied and where it can go.



On the note of the threats list, you can locate it HERE in Spreadsheet form.



How this works, and what to do and what not to do (READ BEFORE REFERENCING OR PAY DEARLY):
-Each mon is listed in a tier-style. I hate tier lists. I wanted to avoid this. However, this is probably the best way to explain how often things are used and how viable they are.
-All of the mons in the first two tiers are VGC-legitimate. I think Toxicroak and Blissey were the only two that I felt are not worth a damn in Doubles compared to VGC, so I placed them a tier lower than they usually would be.
-The incorporation of the legendary Pokemon along with testing of the format's impact is what is going to change this list in the future.
-The legendary Pokemon are listed at the bottom, the ones that aren't allowed in VGC, anyways. This is solely my opinion and observation, and I will admit that unlike the VGC-legal mons which I feel are almost totally optimally ordered, these are not even close to confidently placed. This is simply from my own observation and testing, which isn't as reliable as my own observation and testing over ten times the amount of time plus dozens of other peoples' as well (referencing the VGC mons). So take the legendaries with a grain of salt, they require tons of testing still (I highly encourage testing them on all sorts of standard teams to see how they do.)
-DO NOT argue about how I have placed the mons without providing adequate evidence supporting a counter-argument (explained below). The discussion of this is not the intention of this spreadsheet, and baselessly arguing about it would be achieving the wrong purpose of this. If that starts, I'll be doing two things: sternly reminding you to read this post thoroughly, and asking a moderator to end that discussion promptly. The idea of this is to give you an idea of how the metagame is using the format implications alone with VGC's current threats, minus Trick Room threats being more prominent for the most part. This will change obviously as we see more clearly what the extra legendaries, clauses, and Pokemon limits affect, but for the time being, at least understand the former threats by either watching battle videos of them (can find these on YouTube, Nugget Bridge, or possibly even on the VGC ladder) or try them out for size.
If you DO post a critique of a Pokemon's placement here, to get me to read it, you need to show the following evidence to make sure we have some quality control:
-3 battle videos of the Pokemon / strategy doing well + winning, two of them against players rated 1750+
-5 Damage calculations against top 20 mons that back up your explanation
-At least one battle video against a 1750+ player showing a weak spot + losing
-Show a team that the Pokemon fits on
-Ask a question (or two, or three, or...) to promote healthy discussion


That's all I ask. That way, we can all see how it works, and find a way to evaluate it and use it if possible!


Now, onto the walls of fame and shame. These are both intended to have a bit of humor interjected while primarily either showing examples of good posts (WoF) or bad posts (WoS). Don't take anything personally, just observe the lesson behind each.

Finally, if you're curious behind the rationale of one of these posts on the walls of fame/shame, just ask away and I'll do my best to describe what you need to know.

Here goes!
Prediction and stopping powerful plays from being successful is the key to doing well. That is why HITMONTOP is so great. It focuses on dismantling 99% of possible opposing strategies AND creates free turns for you to wreak havoc.
This is pretty solid, it just straight up eliminates a lot of gimmicks.



much of Hitmontop's usefulness is in its Intimidate + Fake Out.
Yup.



Change the settings in the calculator to doubles
Good tip for anyone doing calcs. Spread moves are reduced to 75% of power if the opponent has two Pokemon out.



I'm incredibly jealous of the some of the TR setting options that are allowed in Smogon Doubles as opposed to VGC. Mew and Victini offer unique things that a lot of the VGC TR setters would love to have (mainly having both bulk and offense)
I feel exactly the same way, an added perk of trying this meta for me.



Also, Toxic hurts (Cresselia), but definitely doesn't ruin it, nor is there any evidence to suggest there's been a sharp rise in either. To respond to you other points, Trick Room being more common is a plus for Cress usage since it's the premier TR setter in the tier. Psychic being easy to switch into is irrelevant for the most part since it's getting used for support anyways, so it not being able to deal huge damage with Psychic isn't a bug deal. I'm not a huge fan of dual screens, but their viability hardly hurts Cress since it can be used for so much more. Saying it's outclassed as a TR setter is bs since it's the bulkiest setter in the tier, and a staple on most teams. And it's different from rage powder/follow me users since its goal is to support the team through its move pool, not tank hits, so saying it's outclassed as a HH user (as if people use dedicated HH users or something) makes no sense.
So yeah. To answer your question Skore, you just ran into teams without it. The ladder's hardly representative of decent players anyways, and it's only what teams you faced, so I doubt there's been an actual drop in its usage.. To everyone else, keep considering Cress for your teams. It's one of the best supporters in the tier, and works well on many kinds of teams.
This post gets so many good points across. Well said.



Cress isn't beast because of one thing. Cress is beast because it does a lot of things well and is the ultimate Glue of doubles.

Need bulk? Cress. Need HH? Cress. Need something to set TR and live? Cress.
Exactly. Cress is flexible and moderately unpredictable at times, which makes it glue-like along with its awesome base stats and utility.



trick room is one of the dominant play styles in any doubles metagame...
Yup.



Just for future reference, when making any arguments about a set, team archetype, etc. please make sure that your opponents are of some quality. Yes, we all get that bad players can make good things bad. I've seen plenty of awful teams laddering on the Doubles ladder and we get that there are plenty of inexperienced people. However, making an argument for something's viability and using those sorts of players to support your argument should be avoided.
For example Habibs, as others have already said, that TR match was a poor example of the viability of TR, and really didn't have any place in a decent discussion. If you planned on posting a replay, you should've made sure that the team wasn't too bad(obviously not every team is perfect, but a reasonable amount of quality is nice.). If you have trouble finding a team with the right amount of quality on the ladder, you can always go on #doubles and ask someone there to play you in a match, since the people there are generally better than the average ladder player. This isn't saying not to use any replays from the ladder, but just try and use your judgment as to whether the team was a decent enough one to justify whatever position you're holding.
READ THIS BEFORE EVER ARGUING SOMETHING HERE EVER. This is golden. High five @ Audiosurfer



Trick Room is definitely not an unviable playstyle.

Putting two TR users and 4 slow bulky attackers is not a way to win.

Rage Powder goes a long way in helping your TR user actually set it up rather then possibly get double targeted.
Brute force is the most effective TR counter, so having Rage Powder is a great way to ensure you get a speed advantage for a few turns. Just need to decide if a 4 turn speed advantage is worth the amount of damage the Rage Powder/Follow Me mon takes.



Cress is probably the best TR user. I actually think that it's arguably the best Pokemon in the Doubles metagame.

Cress has much more support options and unpredictability than Dusclops and Pory2. Dual screens, TR, Thunder Wave, Icy Wind, HH, Skill Swap, Swagger, Safeguard, Hidden Power Fire (to act as a Scizor lure) are her great support moves; I wouldn't be surprised if I forgot something from this list. Pory2's only good support moves are TR, Icy Wind, and Thunder Wave, and the last 2 don't pair well with TR. Cress actually has better overall bulk than Dusclops.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cresselia: 374-444 (84.23 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 236-278 (83.09 - 97.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Very little difference in physical durability. Keep in mind that TTar rarely holds CB in Doubles.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 186-222 (65.49 - 78.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 282-332 (63.51 - 74.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cress has better special bulk, and the difference between their special bulk is greater than the difference between their physical bulk. This is even more important considering that special bulk is usually better than physical bulk in Doubles.
This is how you explain an idea: show that it can do something other than using your emotions. These are excellent damage calculations that show calculations on Pokemon that are relevant to the discussion. Awesome stuff here.



mental powder amoongus
More powerful than Sleep Orb.



... I'd like to see more replays (and I'm sure most people do)

The doubles strategies are endless and watching replays of doubles matches is much more exciting than singles ones.
Yup. Watching, observing, and asking questions is the best way to learn.



Has any of the TR users in the forums tried to set up with a pokemon that also provides Feint support? I think that Feint support is quite cool to keep your opponents from wishfully trying to make your Trick Room run out by spaming Protect or blocking you with Wide Guard. Gallade is pretty cool for this because it can also play offensive when needed...
Feint is a great idea. Not a fan of putting something like this here, but this is a really constructive idea, shows some great thought process. People like to Protect to "stall out" Trick Room, so why not Feint them and make them pay? Great call. Give it a test.



Folks, I present to you: PerishTrap! This strategy was introduced to a fellow VGC player Sapphire Birch, and his impressive execution of this strategy against fledgling vgc playa yan sogeking send me an urge to try this out myself in this metagame.
This just gets placed here for the laugh. Nothing more.



Pocket, in your second replay you switch toed out and back in to reactivate drizzle... why didn't you just use Skill Swap on it? It would have reactivated drizzle and accomplished the Skill Swap you wanted to do.
You also Rain Danced right before you Skill Swapped for Drizzle, so you did not have infinite rain and wasted a turn =[
Good call. That's the best way to get weather back up, and good observation in that situation!



We've pretty much ruled Blaziken is pretty much too frail to work in doubles.

What seems to be underwhelming or surprisingly good in Doubles?
This is refreshing after seeing the Blaziboners all over before. Also, great question to guide discussion.



You use Heracross with Guts? Moxie is one nasty ability to have in this format
True. I have a trophy to prove this ;)



Kyutini combo is more lolzy than viable imo. To abuse it you need Choice Scarves and then Tyranitar and Gastrodon don't really care about you.
Yeah, it's a gimmick. A strong gimmick, but still...it's too reliant on certain things happening or not happening to work consistently well enough. Good call.



It's pretty useful to speed creep on base 70s with like 8 EVs in speed.
Yup.



I'm sorry, but this statement makes absolutely no sense. Heatran is known for being one of the best Volcarona counters in singles, and with Volcarona's inability to run Hidden Power in this metagame (dual STAB+QD+Protect is best), Heatran passes it by no problem. Volcarona partners can beat Heatran, sure, but the common Volcarona partners are common with or without it, so they can't link Volcarona with Heatran's fall.
Elbow dropping that conversation was necessary. This post did said elbow dropping.



Heatran is bulkier, gets Flash Fire boosts, typing is better. You can make plenty of niches out of that. But yea Volcarona is *generally* better than Heatran.
Good review of those two.



Honestly, I think the use of the word outclasses really needs to stop in the sense that it's being used in this discussion. Volcarona in no way outclasses Heatran, since they serve very different functions on a team. Their niches don't even overlap unless you're just looking at it in terms of special attacking fire types (which isn't a great way to look at it anyways). As youngjake said, Heatran has many things that seperate it from Volcarona. Also, I think you're underestimating how valuable all the resists are, especially when you could be taking up to 2 attacks in the same turn. All the resists start to come in handy when it's necessary for you to live through an attack to be able to strike back. Flash Fire also lets Heatran act as a deterrent for people wanting to spam Heat Wave, since no one really wants to give up that boost. So yeah. It's one thing to say that you think that one pokemon tends to perform better in general in a current metagame, and then provide reasons as to why you think so, but simply saying that one pokemon outclasses another when their roles don't overlap to begin with is silly. Also, what Articblast said made sense, as even though you may have meant it to mean that Volcarona outclasses Heatran, an increase in Volcarona would spur more Heatran usage since Heatran is an amazing counter to Volcarona for the reasons listed by Articblast, so saying that Volcarona usage would cause a decrease in Heatran usage is still inaccurate.(also, when I read the statement I interpreted it the same way they did, so it wasn't like he was completely off or something.)
Another insanely good post. Read it, it can only help.



Bulk is still king, stall doesn't work.
Yup.



I'm see a lot of championing of lesser used pokemon. Imo trying gimmicks and subpar pokemon in a developing metagame isn't healthy for it. Do it once you have a solid meta and can actually say "just because a pokemon is VGC standard, doesn't mean its automatically amazing in doubles."
This comment needs to be featured, because this is exactly what my gripe was too. Read this if you're one of the people he's talking about, because he's dead on the mark here.
I don't enjoy standard teams and prefer trolly/different teams.
My team isn't even good but is more about trolling
I recently lost to a gimmick assist + fly + bounce + dive + shadow force which shows just how many strategies there are (that can actually work, even though it was a gimmick)
It works, sure, but how often? That was my friend, by the way, who was in Skype with me at the time, and he was totally messing around with that team. He obviously understands its limitations, but wanted to see how many people he could actually beat with it. Turned out he won 61% of his battles by the end of the night, but that is 1) not a very good number if you want to call it a legitimate team, and 2) due to him playing pretty bad players while being a pretty experienced player himself. He’s been able to get top 50 on the ladder easily with a very standard, solid team, so it says a lot about how much the team was actually holding him back. He was also tired out of his mind that night and playing on autopilot, which was okay since that team seriously either instaloses or instawins at team preview. That’s not a stretch, it’s true. If anything has Priority, Fake Out + taunt or sleep, or Roar/Whirlwind/Perish Song, he INSTANTLY loses since his other Pokemon have nothing but 1 pretty bad move each.

Basically two lessons: one, gimmicks are not reliable and require good matchups rather than good playing, and two, if something is winning a few battles but in general not doing that well, or just winning a couple in a row and making you feel good, you can’t prop it up. Make it a goal to find and offer solid evidence so that you don’t accidentally misdirect other players (or yourself). Simply giving bad things a lot of pumping up and asserting that you know what you’re doing at the same time will understandably mislead newer players.

If you have fun using gimmicks, go for it, use them. But please, do not come back and state that they’re “viable” and “very good” in the thread because they won a battle against a certain team archetype. It needs to do well against the vast majority of teams to be good. Having fun and using them for fun is one thing, stating that they’re able to be viable and used consistently, however, is incorrect, and extremely misleading to boot.

Finally, if you want to post how your team works, you should know what it does and be able to explain this to other players by general rationale backed by good damage calculations and good battle examples. For example on how to show your team is legitimate, check this RMT by Darkmalice.



Just some other instances I saw of this type of thing happening...
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I think stall will be more viable in doubles than in singles because setup moves are so rare.. so carry a way to deal with Volca and chances are your stall will be difficult to break
Personally I found stall a highly viable strategy in doubles as boosting is not as viable and resistances and bulk are probably more important in doubles than singles as you see a lot less outrages and such.
(Stall is not at all viable in doubles, never has been, and nothing in the new format changes implies that it will ever be. Two mons attacking rather than one is the biggest problem. Setup moves mean nothing, double damage for three turns is better than a setup move and two turns of attacking. You also need tons of evidence to support this train of thought, much less assert it.)



Breloom's typing is simply fantastic

I Highly Recommend toxic heal as the status immunity is priceless and the recovery allows you to deal better with occasional ice beams, flamethrowers and sludge bombs.

Breloom is particularly good at walling sun teams in general

For now, I haven't put too much effort into ev'ing it
(Its typing is often considered its bane because of fire, flying, psychic, and ice weakness, fire and ice being extremely common. It has fire weakness, so how can you say it walls SUN TEAMS? Ice Beams and Flamethrowers/Fire Blasts/Heat Waves are more than “occasional”, and I’ve never seen a Sludge Bomb from a team that actually threatened me yet in over 250 battles. None of those moves are occasional. Technician allows Breloom to actually do damage and use its better stat and typing layout, its attack. Its defenses are far too poor to have it bulky, SQUIRTLE has higher base special defense...without eviolite, and also has less type weaknesses. Finally, be sure you identify exactly what you are trying to wall, and do damage calculations and show them to help people understand if it actually works. Also be honest and point out calcs that DON’T help its cause as well, since people need to know both pros and cons to succeed with a more specialized Pokemon such as the one you’re advertising.)



I've seen better players use substitute to basically evade trick room turns..

pick a fast sweeper: Kingdra

apply 2 attacks: Draco Meteor/pulse + Muddy Water
apply protect + sub
(That’s my Kingdra. And Swift Swim in Trick Room makes Substitute totally useless. I never brought Kingdra to beat TR.)



Cress will most probably have:
1. A psychic STAB, typically psychic
2. Screen(s)
(It almost always has Psyshock, not Psychic, and very rarely has screens. Only seen two Cresselias with even one screen in this tier since beginning.)



-Blaziken is actually really good in doubles! ever tried stalling with substitute and protect? it's incredibly hilarious stalling with him as he is a rather common target after protecting and sub protects you against everything but double targeting (but your ally can be dangerous too).

-Breloom I have personally found working best as a wall.

-Volcarona is quite literally "master race" in this tier.. countering her requires some not-so-standard strategies and she is probably the reason why no one really cares much for Heatran anymore. She is also probably the easiest set up sweeper to support considering a input/output ratio, you're getting about twice the return ratio with a Volcarona then the next best set up sweepers (Absorb bulb Ludicolo w/ fake out for example)

Underwhelming:
-Skymin (its really the fact that it has single target moves...)
-Latios
-Heatran
-Cresselia (yes it's not a typo!)
-Terrakion (its good, just not as good as I thought with intimidate everywhere)

Surprisingly good:
-Metagross (Holy sheet this goes from zero to hero)
-Tornadus/Archeops (Dem acrobatics are amazing)
-Tyranitar (one of the best lures)
-Politoed
-Mantine (I think I oversell this)
-Sableye
-Dusclops (I'd argue mental herb dusclops > eviolite)
-Infernape
-Shuckle!! (Really, try it in TR with one of the splits!)
-Kyurem-B & Victini (they're both good individually but I'd argue borderline ubers together -.-, Kyu-B is one of the best sub users with fake out support)
(Observations are fine and often fun to read, but make sure you clearly state that they’re observations instead of asserting things based on a few weeks’ worth of play...)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry, I'm just not seeing Cresselia being all that great..
(Then you haven’t ever faced an even half-decent player using one...I’ll show you one if you want.)



Another was vs Level 51 who used a (BAN ME PLEASE) Skill Swap-spamming team and ended up stealing my Shadow Tag and perish trapping me instead D:<
SHAAAAME

(Sidenote: don’t call people names, especially potentially offensive ones, openly. I know you’re totally messing around because you’re friends, but other people might just think it’s okay anytime...sadly :l)

Actually I saw this too when running Perish Trap...and lost to it... so I advocate myself for the Wall of Shame. I also called the person a scrub. Twice. :l



I've found Lilligant to be a star player in and out of sunlight. It can run a fast bulky set with Leaf Storm and OHKO TTar and Politoed.
It needs at least 168 Special Attack with Modest Nature and Grass Gem to OHKO a standard Tyranitar in Sand. That means it can’t outspeed neutral stat 120s (base 100s) or can’t survive important hits, such as Specs Politoed Ice Beam. It’s a pretty awful mon, honestly, and is outclassed by Serperior, Tangrowth, and a lot of other mono Grass types. It wasn’t even used more than 1% of the time in VGC 2011 when it was one of the only Grass-Type Pokemon available...:l



Eruptiontran is a boss

Yes, Shuckle is borderline broken lol. Guard Split, Power Split, Power Trick, Acupressure are all AMAZING in doubles.
Broken as in cannot work properly ever? That makes sense. I thought that’s what you meant until the second part where you made hilariously Amoonguss/Togekiss/Taunt-tested, Amoonguss/Togekiss/Taunt-disapproved statements. Also, evidence for this please.



the enemy is likely to try and just flat out kill the frog rather then worry about it staying around to cause mayhem since Toed's power is something to be feared.
Politoed has awful base attack, a movepool of pretty poor moves, and is never the thing attacking inside of Rain that is the real offensive threat. I’ve noticed people piling my Politoed as my Kingdra rips right through their team and wonder what the heck they did that for. I’ve been running bulky support (Icy Wind / Helping Hand) Politoed rather than flat out attacking...and have reached the top of the ladder with this Politoed and stayed there for over 3 weeks. Even the offensive Politoeds are not scary, since they rarely outspeed and OHKO a well-EV’d mon that’s actually threatening. The ONLY reason toed is used is because of Drizzle. If it did not have Drizzle, it would be utterly useless, even if Rain was in play.





Also, things that are shameful that belong here:
-Pressing the Toxic button
-Hi Health Loss Kick
-Eeveelution teams
-Gimmicks that instalose to common Pokemon
-Double Protecting turn 1
-Protecting when you’re inevitably going to lose
-Fake Out + Protect
-Rage Powder + Protect, simply when you thought it couldn’t get worse
-Monotype teams





So, just a quick recap of things that can be improved
~ Don’t mislead people. This sort of goes with backing up your claims, but don’t overhype something that isn’t winning the VAST majority of the time (75%+ as a benchmark). Make sure if you’re just posting thoughts you clearly state that it’s just a work in progress, but an interesting idea, rather than asserting it’s legendary and on a killing spree.

~ Back up your claims. I typically like to see, like I said in the first post, 3 solid wins and 5 solid damage calcs. Give me a reason to use it, and something to watch out for as well (add another 2-3 damage calcs and another battle replay or two to prove your case) so I know whether or not it will fit on my team. This is really necessary when challenging the norm when claiming something. It also can catch a flaw before you post it to the world and look silly.

~ Try it before you hate it. And show that you tried it, if possible. Playing 1-2 months is not enough time to know everything, and rightfully so.

~ On that note, never be afraid to learn. Not even the 8 year veterans are done learning. There is always something you can take away from each battle, and never be afraid to accept a loss or accept defeat when it happens. Learn from it and bounce back.

~ Gimmicks rely on matchups. Even though that sounds good at first, it’s really not. Almost every single gimmick, if not every single one, either wins or loses or comes close to doing so in team preview. If you’re using it to have fun, that is fine, enjoy yourself! However, if you’re doing so, please do not suddenly change from fun-loving gimmick user to veteran doubles guru and post that the gimmick is amazing because it won a few excellent matchups. Also, since gimmicks are typically all-or-nothing teams, they don’t encourage good play, and battling against them is a drag since the result is often determined way before the end of the battle.

~ Things are still yet to be discovered. Not all discoveries will turn out to be gimmicks. Some may be viable strategies or sets.There are a lot of things we have to learn yet about how this format changes the doubles metagame that we already know of. Most of the things being posted on this wall of shame are ideas we mostly look back at a few months later and realize how far we’ve come and chuckle a little, like Firestorm said: “Reading some of your posts where you discover things for the first time in particular bring a bit of a smile to my face because I can remember back when we discovered those things for the first time as well and how excited we were!” We need to first understand what is currently working so that the development of the metagame is less painful. So touch up on your history! Use resources that more experienced doubles players are giving, such as players like Darkmalice, Firestorm, Makiri, Audiosurfer, and myself have listed in the forums (such as the spreadsheet linked above!).



From transitioning from one game to the other, I have seen very minimal difference so far, in my opinion mostly because players are not yet settled into doubles, much less this format. I do believe that the mechanics of this format will influence the metagame down the road and encourage really developmental testing. We just have to get to that point first, and repeating the same general mistakes that we’ve already made years ago isn’t necessary. So first things first: understand what is already known. Make that your goal. After that’s achieved, we’ll naturally make the movement to exploration.

WHAT'S NEXT?

Start participating in projects that we will be creating in the very near future, and discuss / share / theorymon some cool double sets, combo, or strategy with the rest of us! We would have some other additional interesting projects and challenges, too, to help make this metagame-carving process a fun one! We will keep track of those significant contributors who offer amazing feedback and increase competition of this tier through a leaderboard!

Also we have a channel on irc for the very purpose of discussing doubles and organizing challenges - go join #doubles!

Now let the birth of a new official smogon metagame commence!
 
Last edited:

NixHex

My dad's not a phone!
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#2
In order to prevent the OP from getting too large, I'm going to post here a huge compendium of replays throughout the thread, sorted by month to see the evolution of the metagame. Right now it's December, January, June, and July but there are definitely more to come later today! There are a plethora of them here for now so enjoy.

August 2013
NixHex vs. GTFOROTFLOL - Paralysis, Intimidate, and some luck beat a tough Genesect / Heracross core
Punchshroom vs. GTFOROTFLOL - very exciting anti-Trick Room hijinx in here. Defiant Tornadus ftw.
NixHex vs. NewbertMon - Anti-Trick Room: a classic VGC strategy.

Pocket loses to Guard Split Chansey
Lagalaga vs. cstick - Protect Mindgames!
Lagalaga vs. Audiosurfer - Suicune Rules
A bunch of BlankZero battles
Lagalaga vs GTFOROTFLOL - Paralyze Everything! (Twave Goodstuffs)
Audiosurfer vs. PillsburyDoughBoy - Breloom / Volcarona triumphs over hax.
PillsburyDoughBoy vs. ladder random - More Breloom / Volc
Pwnemon vs. Boof Boof Boof - Rain and just plain attacking wears down manual sun ("...I focused on taking down his Pokemon one-by-one, even when I was in the wrong weather." - Pwnemon)
A bunch of Pocket battles
Death by Terrakion
- Rock Slide flinch meant that I couldn't finish off +6 Terrakion on turn 2. Sitrus Berry lets Terrakion tank a second Psyshock (who uses Sitrus Berry Terrakion -_-), and I proceed to be crushed by Rock Slide spam...

Pwned by QuakeSlide... - Losing Gastrodon in turn 2 = gg. I was using Kyurem-B this time as my glue mon, but I ditched it later on for Hydreigon (which was replaced by Shiftry for Speed). Cresselia failed as it is finished by +2 Rock Slide from Excadrill before setting up Trick Room.

Rain vs Sun - He miserably failed to pull off the Perish Trap combo in the beginning. Predicted LRod Manectric switch-in turn 5 to nail it with Hydro Pump instead. Victini should have Brick Break KO Politoed instead of Vaporeon; didn't expect Cresselia to be slower than the frog -_-;;

Sand vs Sun - Funny game where Rotom-W and Victini takes down Tyranitar turn 1. Sun for the rest of the game

vs noobcubed - this was one of the better games I had on the ladder. Shiftry's faster Fake Out + Ninetales Fire Blast took out Mienshao turn 1, giving me an instant lead. The rest of the battle didn't go quite as smoothly, though. Gastrodon's Ice Beam is weak shit that couldn't KO Landorus-T, which costed my Shiftry, and the opponent's Specs Trick Rotom-W with HP Grass harassed my team by tricking Specs onto Victini as it used Trick Room and threatening to KO my Gastrodon. Once the Trick Room went up, Eruptran cleaned the floor.

vs noobcubed R2 - noobcube didn't fall for the same trick twice as he switched out his Mienshao to Rotom-W on Fake Out + Fire Blast. Landorus-T intimidates Shiftry, but its Seed Bomb KOs Rotom-W anyways, which is great for me because it was a major nuisance last game. Decided to try Will-O-Wisp > Disable on Ninetales. Wide Guard shenanigans at the end stopped Eruption from Heatran, but not V-destroy from Victini.
Pocket Battles
vs Pwnemon
- showcases where Manaphy couldn't pull its weight ;( Kyurem-Bitch negated LRod fml
vs Mr.lol - faced a gimmicky team; he didn't mount a strong enough offense to stop Manaphy from grabbing boosts.
BlankZero vs. Master Mime - CMRestTalk Kyogre Cresselia
Eggy vs. Pocket - Sash Deoxys-A helps beat a tough TR team
nyttyn messes around with Deoxys-A
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13837854
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13923416
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13924996
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13927726 (the importance of protect)
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13945173
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13945615
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13946205
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13946813 (how not to use deoxys-a. also fuck quick claw)
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13947111
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13946205
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13947518
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13947955
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13957129 (6-0!)
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13957589
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13957814
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13958334 (rare example of proper play vs deo-a)
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13958842
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13959058
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13959292
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13959463
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13959799 (Deo-aception)

High ranking (1850+) (1)
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13924226
Arcticblast vs. gr8astard - super haxy rain vs. hail. ArcticBlast is a gentleman!
12/24/12
Solace vs. Pocket - Mew is viable?

12/25/12
Dusk209 vs. Pocket - Gravity + Hypnosis
Dusk209 vs. breh - Dunsparce wrecks... with a ton of support.

12/26/12
NixHex vs. Pocket - Just for fun

12/28/12
voodoo pimp vs. breh - Hitmontop is good in this format!
voodoo pimp vs. Pocket
voodoo pimp vs. Dusk209
voodoo pimp vs. breh - Wobbuffet is effective

12/29/12
NixHex vs. Level 51 - Froslass kills a Heatran
breh vs. Pocket - Sky Drop was once allowed. Deo-A, Drakrai, and Shaymin in for some fun.
Pocket vs. Level 51 - TR Hail

12/30/12
Diana vs. Level 51 - More hail

12/31/12
Audiosurfer vs. breh - Beware of Heatran

1/1/13
Mr.lol vs. Audiosurfer - Whimsicott forcing Pokemon to use useless moves with Prankster Encore.

1/3/13
voodoo pimp vs. DTC
voodoo pimp vs. Pocket - Sun vs. Rain. Iron Ball Ninetales!

1/4/13
DTC uses Deo-A
BlankZero vs. voodoo pimp

1/5/13
Pocket vs. BlankZero - rain vs. sand
NixHex vs. BlankZero - Stealth Rock may be useful but doesn't shine here
Pocket vs. BlankZero - Stealth Rock works here!

1/6/13
typon77 vs. Pocket - a TON of perma-weather
Pocket vs. Poplop - Trick Room, Hail, etc.
BlankZero vs. Pwnemon - rain vs. sand
Pwnemon vs. Solace

1/8/13
NixHex vs. Pwnemon - Double sand vs. rain; Outrage is ass
Pwnemon vs. reachzero - Blissey, Volt Switch, etc.
Pwnemon vs. hexasexual - Heal Pulse Blissey

1/9/13
BlankZero vs. Pwnemon - sun vs. rain
" vs. "
Audiosurfer vs. Typon77 - Rotom-W checks many things
Audiosurfer vs. reachzero

1/10/13
Aura Rayquaza vs. NixHex - Gravity + Trick Room
Exeggutor - ladder match with Trick Room VGC team

1/11/13
Pwnemon vs. #1 - Mobility wins the game, weather wars!
felix 1
felix 2
felix 3

1/12/13
VarunR - sun vs. rain
nyttyn vs. Level 51 - Sand vs. Trick Room and.... Magnet Rise Excadrill?
Pwnemon vs. DTC - Stealth Rock really IS useful

Arcticblast's Tournament
Audiosurfer vs. Satoshi - Tyranitar works Cresselia
Audiosurfer vs. SD J UK - Dual Screen Metagross DGAF about Icy Wind... but Excadrill kills it right on time
Audiosurfer vs. Exeggutor (Finals) - 20 turns, Multiple Trick Rooms, Lots of Helping Hand from ChestoRest Cresselia. Amazing match overall.
iRenzo vs. BlankZero - Paralysis EVERYWHERE and a Ferrothorn that just does not die.

1/13/13
Pwnemon vs. Ace Emerald - Archeops lasts the entire match and kills nearly everything!
Audiosurfer vs. Level 51
DTC vs. ThePillsburyDoughboy - Serene Grace not working...
DTC vs. ThePillsburyDoughboy (pt 2)
ThePillsburyDoughboy vs. Level 51

Audiosurfer vs. BlankZero - Sand vs. Sun. Sun sweepers are frail :-/

1/14/13
Snowflakes vs. BlankZero - Ferrothorn is a tank
Cold Token vs. CEO
voodoo pimp vs. Pwnemon - Sunny Day / TR Dusclops + a bit of hax controls the match
Arcticblast vs. ccst - 28 turn stall match with a beastly Calm Mind Cresselia

1/15/13
Blaziken48 vs. boba fett - Blaziken48 makes a forum account to show off a brutal Helping Hand / +5 Terrakion wreck in 4 turns.
Blaziken48 vs. Dittoditto - Simple Beam + Quiver Dance

1/16/13
NixHex vs. Aurarayquaza - Gravity + Trick Room, burned Pokemon everywhere, Chople Excadrill.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
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#3
approved by Joim

It is a well-known fact that EVing your Pokemon can be essential to a team's success in the Doubles metagame. It is something so important that a whole TOTW was devoted towards exploring the best way to maximize the effect of your EVs. However, many people may find it daunting to attempt to keep track of the many different benchmarks there are in the Doubles metagame, and will thus resort to inferior 252/252 spreads as opposed to finding spreads that will best fit their team. This thread's goal is to provide an easy to access list of benchmarks to make it easier to calculate spreads for your Pokemon. In addition to the Speed benchmarks, there is a list of important offensive and defensive benchmarks to consider when EVing that is available below. Sadly, this list is likely missing things, so if you feel that there is an important benchmark being left out, be sure to mention it.
Speed Tiers:
Format: Speed / Pokemon / Base Speed / Nature (+Spe, -Spe, or Neutral) / EV Investment / Boost
* - An asterisk next to the nature indicates that the Pokemon has 0 Speed IVs
** - Two asterisks next to the boost indicates that the speed factors in a drop from Icy Wind

Tier 0 (Boost Required)
776 / Shaymin-S / 127 / +Spe / 252 / 2
706 / Tornadus / 111 / +Spe / 252 / 2
700 / Latios, Latias / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 2
656 / Zapdos, Volcarona / 100 / +Spe / 2
604 / Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 2
558 / Lilligant / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 2
550 / Excadrill / 88 / Neutral / 252 / 2
538 / Kingdra, Blaziken / 85 / Neutral / 252 / 2
519 / Terrakion / 108 / +Spe / 252 / 1
518 / Venusaur, Kabutops / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 2
492 / Volcarona / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 1
489 / Genesect / 99 / +Spe / 252 / 1
478 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / 252 / 2
475 / Kyurem, Kyurem-B / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 1
463 / Landorus-T / 91 / +Spe / 252 / 1
447 / Rotom-A / 86 / +Spe / 252 / 1
439 / Terrakion / 108 / Neutral / 164 / 1

Tier 1 (Neutral base 100s to Max Base 150 Speed)
438 / Deoxys, Deoxys-A / 150 / +Spe / 252 / 0
433 / Genesect / 99 / +Spe / 116 / 1
433 / Kyurem, Kyurem-B / 95 / Neutral / 252 / 1
426 / Chandelure / 80 / +Spe / 252 / 1
404 / Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 / 2**
399 / Deoxys, Deoxys-A / 150 / Neutral / 252 / 0
394 / Aerodactyl, Jolteon / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0
390 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / 76 / 2
388 / Shaymin-S / 127 / +Spe / 252 / 0
388 / Blaziken, Chandelure / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 1
383 / Darkrai / 125 / +Spe / 252 / 0
366 / Excadrill / 88 / Neutral / 252 / 2**
364 / Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / 1
361 / Raikou / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
360 / Abomasnow / 60 / +Spe / 252/ 1
359 / Aerodactyl, Jolteon / 130 / Neutral / 252 / 0
358 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 252 / 2**
353 / Shaymin-S / 127 / Neutral / 252 / 0
353 / Tornadus, Thundurus / 111 / +Spe / 252 / 0
350 / Latios, Latias / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0
346 / Terrakion, Virizion, Infernape / 108 / +Spe / 252 / 0
345 / Venusaur, Kabutops / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 2**
333 / Garchomp / 102 / +Spe / 252 / 0
331 / Landorus / 101 / +Spe / 252 / 0
328 / Volcarona, Salamence, Manaphy, Zapdos / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0
326 / Genesect / 99 / +Spe / 252 / 0
324 / Hydreigon / 98 / +Spe / 252 / 0
318 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / 252 / 2**
309 / Landorus-T / 91 / +Spe / 252 / 0
302 / Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 / 0
299 / Volcarona, Manaphy, Salamence, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0

Tier 2 (Max Base 85s to Min Base 71)
295 / Heracross, Suicune / 85 / +Spe / 252 / 0
292 / Deoxys, Deoxys-A / 150 / +Spe / 252 / 0**
284 / Mamoswine / 80 / +Spe / 252 / 0
281 / Landorus-T / 91 / Neutral / 252 / 0
279 / Lucario, Porygon-Z, Lilligant / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 0
275 / Excadrill / 88 / Neutral / 252 / 0
269 / Kingdra, Heracross, Suicune / 85 / Neutral / 252 / 0
266 / Deoxys, Deoxys-A / 150 / Neutral / 252 / 0**
263 / Jirachi, Volcaona, Manaphy / 100 / Neutral / 108 / 0
262 / Breloom / 70 / +Spe / 252 / 0
259 / Mamoswine, Chandelure, Venusaur, Blaziken, Kabutops / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 0
258 / Shaymin-S / 127 / +Spe / 252 / 0**
253 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 252 / 0
243 / Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / 0
239 / Breloom, Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / 252 / 0
234 / Cresselia / 85 / Neutral / 116 / 0
233 / Latios / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0**
218 / Volcarona, Manaphy, Zapdos, Salamence / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0**
218 / Victini / 100 / +Spe / 252 / -1
208 / Rotom-A / 86 / Neutral / 0 / 0
206 / Cresselia / 85 / Neutral / 0 / 0
199 / Volcarona, Manaphy, Zapdos, Salamence / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0**
199 / Victini / 100 / Neutral / 252 / -1
196 / Chandelure / 80 / Neutral / 0 / 0
195 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / 76 / 0
190 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 0 / 0
184 / Victini / 100 / -Spe* / 0 / 0

Tier 3 (Min Speed 70s and Under)
176 / Metagross, Hitmontop / 70 / Neutral / 0 / 0
166 / Scizor / 65 / Neutral / 0 / 0
158 / Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / 0 / 0
156 / Abomasnow, Jellicent / 60 / Neutral / 0 / 0
152 / Scrafty / 58 / Neutral / 0 / 0
148 / Chandelure, Gallade / 80 / -Spe* / 0 / 0
146 / Machamp / 55 / Neutral / 0 / 0
142 / Tyranitar / 61 / -Spe / 0 / 0
140 / Abomasnow, Jellicent / 60 / -Spe / 0 / 0
136 / Hariyama, Tangrowth, Chansey / 50 / Neutral / 0 / 0
126 / Conkeldurr / 45 / Neutral / 0 / 0
123 / Victini / 100 / -Spe* / 0 / -1
114 / Gastrodon / 39 / Neutral / 0 / 0
114 / Tyranitar / 61 / -Spe* / 0 / 0

Tier 4: (Trick Room Pokemon + Slowmons)
112 / Abomasnow, Jellicent / 60 / -Spe* / 0 / 0
102 / Bronzong / 33 / Neutral / 0 / 0
96 / Reuniclus, Slowking, Amoonguss / 30 / Neutral / 0 / 0
94 / Musharna / 29 / Neutral / 0 / 0
94 / Hariyama / 50 / -Spe*/ 0 / 0
86 / Dusclops / 25 / Neutral / 0 / 0
85 / Conkeldurr / 45 / -Spe* / 0 / 0
76 / Ferrothorn / 20 / Neutral / 0 / 0
63 / Bronzong / 33 / -Spe* / Neutral / 0 / 0
58 / Reuniclus, Slowking, Amoonguss / 30 / -Spe* / 0 / 0
56 / Musharna / 29 / -Spe* / 0 / 0
49 / Dusclops / 25 / -Spe*/ 0 / 0
40 / Escavalier, Ferrothorn / 20 / -Spe*/ 0 / 0

Offensive Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon you want to inflict damage / KO)
* - Indicates that you should consider accounting for Intimidate drops if calcing physical attacks
  • max HP / 12 Def Cresselia
  • max HP Gastrodon
  • max HP Tyranitar
  • max HP Politoed
  • max HP Metagross
  • max HP Hitmontop*
  • min HP Latios
  • -1 Def max HP Victini
  • max HP Jellicent
  • min HP Landorus-T*
  • 200 HP Heatran
  • min HP Latios
  • max HP & 192 +SDef Amoonguss
  • min HP Virizion
  • 240 HP / 16 SDef Rotom-W

Defense Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon's moves you want to tank)
* - Indicates that you should be sure to factor in spread damage reduction when calculating
Physical:
  • CB / Gem V-create from Victini (in or out of sun)
  • CB / Gem Close Combat from Terrakion
  • Gem Close Combat from Hitmontop (Admaant)
  • LO Hi Jump Kick from Blaziken (Adamant)
  • Gem Acrobatics from Tornadus (Jolly)
  • +2 Zen Headbutt from Metagross
  • +1 Dragon Claw from Kyurem-B
  • +1 Crunch from Tyranitar
  • Earthquake from Excadrill (plus sand damage)*
  • Earthquake from Garchomp*
  • Bug Bite from Scizor (Adamant)
  • Rock Slide from Terrakion*
  • Rock Slide from Tyranitar*
Special:
  • Gem / LO Psycho Boost from Deoxys-A
  • Gem Draco Meteor from Hydreigon (Modest)
  • Gem Draco Meteor from Latios (Timid)
  • Gem Draco Meteor from Salamence
  • Eruption from Heatran (in or out of Sun)
  • Hydro Pump from Modest Kingdra (in or out of Rain)
  • Gem Shadow Ball from Modest Chandelure
  • Blizzard from Kyurem (plus hail damage)*
  • Blizzard from Abomasnow (plus hail damage)*
  • Thunderbolt from Zapdos
  • Heat Wave from Volarona*
  • Heat Wave from Heatrun (with or without Sun)*
  • Gem Overheat from Chandelure or Volcarona
  • +1 Hydro Pump from Rotom-W (with or without Rain)
  • Life Orb-boosted Muddy Water from Modest Kingdra (with or without Rain)
  • Life Orb-boosted Giga Drain from Modest Ludicolo
 
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