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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
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    After You has the huge problem of being +0 priority though, with literally nothing having access to After You + Prankster. Really makes it a bitch to use, as it has a extremely narrow list of criteria that need to be fulfilled before it is your best option (Have a faster mon then the other pokemon, have a mon slower then the enemy who needs to act first, and the fast mon can't do the job, and priority won't cut it). I can't really see many oppertunities where it would be useful, especially considering 99% of the pokemon that get it are, somewhat bafflingly, slow as shit. The only viable users would be Lilligant and Mew from what I can see, and only with a 252 HP / 252 Spe (or in Lilly's case she can probably get away with 252 Spa / 252 Spe) spread, sacrificing a ton of bulk for a very niche move.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Guys, I'd like you all to read Zach's word of advice. Namely, if you're going to suggest gimmicky stuff, back it up with evidence. Theorymoning about SEAKING as a Soak utility mon falls egregiously in the territory of gimmicks, and unless you have actual playtesting experience with some logs / replays to elaborate on this strategy, don't post about it.

    Nice to have you back, but I disagree with this. Unlike Singles, a metagame where games last longer and are heavy on hazards and voltturns, there are much less "chip damage" opportunities in Doubles imo. This is particularly true for the first two mons that lead the game, because they are coming at perfect health. Not to mention that double-targeting is a large setback and risk (what if the target uses Protect?) in doubles - ideally you'd want to hit both opponents with your mons. So if one can EV their mons up to survive a common attack, they put the opponent at a disadvantage by forcing them to attack that one mon with both Pokemon or expect some kind of retaliation from that tank. That's what makes Focus Sash users so terrible to face in Doubles, too.
  3. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Focus Sash whimsicott, Sableye, Breloom, Genies.... Basically anything you'd want to kill off that threatens you severely can run a sash and make folks mad as hell, especially since rocks and spikes are uncommon as shit.
  4. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    In response to Audio's post, just hiding again to preserve space.
    Show Hide
    That's the first issue. That's a VGC 2012 analysis, so it's pretty outdated, and the spreads aren't given any thought. I'll get to that one in a sec.

    To do that, you have to understand why you're using it. To do that, you need to understand what it KOs, what it survives, and what its niches actually do for your teammates. That's what the calcs are for, they help prove the points you want to make to validate its use.

    Staying power against what? I know not everything is specific like MrE commented before, but it's still wise to calculate big hits and key hits from mons that you're going to see time and time again. Knowing you take two Zen Headbutts from Metagross and can KO back is a very reassuring feeling heading into the battle. It's an upper hand on your opponent and a very good knowledge of your own team, a double whammy.

    False, with the new tutors this combination is 100% possible now.

    It's more for covering your bases. What if you need to stay in? What if a very predictable switch causes you to sacrifice a Pokemon in the back that you did not need to lose? It's the little things like this that the resist berries are good for. This is also why type synergy on a team is great, but that's going way too far for a simple Swampert idea. It's useful, random HP grass and stuff like that is everywhere too.

    Good call, this is something that I often overlook and probably should put together. I'll talk it over with people and see what everyone's needing the most help with, and I'll focus on that and draw an EVing guide up. It's mostly just calculating the most common hits (can it survive a Metagross Meteor Mash and/or Zen Headbutt? Cresselia Psyshock? Shaymin Air Slash? Tyranitar Crunch? Politoed rain-boosted Scald?) These are simple calcs that don't take too much time or effort, but can provide incredible benefits of an upper hand in commonly recurrent situations.

    Just a sidenote:
    It's never a bad thing to admit you're a bit unsure and step back and learn. Joim's signature is a great quote on this.... but on an ironic note, it also points out that it's a really hypocritical feeling trying to post anything like this post, since I really don't care for recognition for anything and don't really want any power or whatever, but at the same time, I have to at least be able to express why what I'm sharing is validated by experience. When you see someone who has never stepped into doubles for more than a couple months (or has just played casually) trying to sell a very unfounded idea, it's hard to just sit there and watch anything that doesn't appear to fit the long-term observations be accepted as fact without some dismissed objection and explanation. I have no issues with anyone bringing up a Pokemon for discussion, especially if it's a solid idea (such as Swampert, which is very legitimate), just understand that I'm one heck of a skeptic on most things. It's a really hard attitude to have in the short run, but in the long run skepticism on things and playing devil's advocate on things has really helped me out. This is why I encourage doing things that really can give an idea of why a Pokemon is really good- strong damage calculating, presenting synergetic teams, and the like. I highlighted it in a post a couple pages back.

    If anyone has anything they'd like to see from VGC or any thoughts I have on more precise areas of how this format's structural differences may affect the previously known powerhouses, let me know and I'll do my best to put together some data and advice on that. I have little knowledge of the legendaries thus far, though, and am not willing to confidently analyze something so foreign. It's only been a couple months for me in this, which is not enough time to accurately depict anything. I need to see how they work on and against legitimately solid teams/players. I'm going to be sort of busy the next two weeks with regionals coming up, but after that I should be free for a couple of weeks, so I'll have plenty of time to do writeups and that kind of stuff :)
  5. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Well any analysis of the unbanned ubers would be great. I somehow get the feeling that they've got untapped potential (except Deoxys-D. I have no idea what useful role that thing could possibly fulfill that isn't done better by another pokemon) and I'd love to at least get a feel for what they could do. Thundurus-I, I think, already has plenty of usage to back up why it's good and you've seen how we've gushed about Genesect.
  6. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    Commonly accepted term for using an electric attack on something you soaked is Towel Mode. Enjoy!
    jio wrote an amazing guide that really should be read by more people:
    http://nuggetbridge.com/articles/making-good-ev-spreads/
  7. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    That article is what helped me do so well in the last Intl Challenge and what shapes my EVs in Doubles. It makes you really think about "How can I spend these 510 points most effectively."
  8. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I think it might also help once we have March's usage stats. Hopefully there'll be EV and moveset stats as well, to get a better idea of what one has to prepare for.

    EDIT: On an unrelated note, I just ran across a player on the ladder who wrecked me with some very interesting mons. I hadn't seen much of Sand Force (at least I think it's Sand Force, given the team) Landorus-I and an Anti-TR Musharna using After You--my opponent was in the mid 1700's so I think it's quite safe to say he knew what he was doing

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13475692

    I also found it interesting that he used at least two choice scarf pokemon, which didn't seem to hamper him any during the match. Has anyone seen any similar strategies> I wonder if After You would make Musharna a more popular pick for offensive teams combating TR, although I've only seen it once so I don't know how reliable it is.
  9. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    Wow I loved his team, that Musharna looks great! when I looked at after you I always thought of how pointless it would be with 0 priority and the fastest user being so fragile. Never thought about using it with/against trick room, loved the replay!
  10. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Goodstuffs Teams are generally getting better, especially versus specific weathers and TR. they tend to lack against Rain Balanced and Sand Abuse teams though.

    That Musharna was definitely being saved for TR though. If he had played it sooner, I think it would have gone differently, because as Bulky as it is, it is easier to take out than Cresselia.

    I had an idea though. Has anyone really looked at how well Thundy-I fits into almost every team out there? I don't think I've seen a single Goodstuffs without one, and a lot of Rain teams as well seem to be throwing it in to add Tailwind to their Swift Swimmers to mess with other Rain teams, as well as to screw up other weather sweepers like Excadrill and Venusaur, cutting the speed gap instantly.

    How else are you all seeing Thundurus-I used?
  11. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Figured I'd say that after giving this some thought and sort of taking a step back from my previous position of being more defensive despite there being flaws in my post that were pointed out, I did learn a good amount from this, especially with Braverius's reply above helping to put things in perspective. Anyways, after running some calcs, I figured I would repost a Swampert set using that knowledge and the guidelines from the article that Firestorm linked to hopefully give a better set that will be more useful to people overall.

    [​IMG]

    Swampert @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 176 HP / 242 Atk / 88 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch
    - Wide Guard / Protect

    Since I was using this on a Hail team where Steel and Firetypes are a huge threat to it, I EVd it to be able to handle common Steel types, namely Metagross who is more difficult to beat than Scizor due to an immunity to Intimidate and a lack of a 4x Fire weakness, as well as Fire types commonly found on Sun teams. 88 Speed lets Swampert outspeed 4 Speed Metagross and also gets the jump on 8 Speed Scizor. 176 HP EVs mean that you get 3HKOed by Zen Headbutt from max Attack Metagross, and with the investments in Attack, you can 2HKO in response (without weather the chance of the 2HKO is like 97.66% anyways which is still pretty great). With the HP EVs you can also dodge a 2HKO from Occa Berry Scizor's Bug Bite (You have a 48% chance to be 2HKOed, so it's by no means a sure check, but it can be useful to handle a weakened Scizor). Sitrus Berry is on the set since it means that you're guaranteed to be 3HKOed by Metagross's Zen Headbutt even with weather damage, letting this set effectively beat Metagross. It also handles threatening Fire types well such as Blaziken, Victini or Ninetales, as it can tank a max SpA Iron Ball Ninetale's Energy Ball and outspeeds and 2HKOs in return with Earthquake, can also live through a LO Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick and OHKOs in return with Earthquake, and lives a V-Create from LO Victini in the sun and OHKOs with Earthquake after the Defense drop.

    Waterfall and Earthquake are for its STAB moves and give it good offensive coverage, and Ice Punch lets Swampert hit Grass and Dragon types that might otherwise take advantage of it (ex: it can beat special Salamence even after being Intimidated). Wide Guard lets it defend its teammate against common spread moves such as Rock Slide or Heat Wave that could otherwise be deadly to a Hail team, but Protect is a viable option if you don't need the Wide Guard support.

    Calcs:
    Show Hide

    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 178 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 177-208 (45.97 - 54.02%) -- 48.44% chance to 2HKO

    242+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 188-224 (51.64 - 61.53%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO

    252+ Atk Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 178 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 162-192 (42.07 - 49.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 178 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 222-262 (57.66 - 68.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    -2 252 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 178 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 111-132 (28.83 - 34.28%) -- 2.93% chance to 3HKO

    -1 242+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 256-304 (77.34 - 91.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 178 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 308-364 (80 - 94.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    242+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 300-354 (85.71 - 101.14%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 178 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 286-337 (74.28 - 87.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    242+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 318-374 (105.29 - 123.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 178 HP / 0 Def Swampert in sun: 261-308 (67.79 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    242+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 356-420 (104.39 - 123.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  12. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Well to be fair he had no reason to bring out Musharna any earlier than he did. A lot of the time Scrafty, Escavalier, or Genesect were on the field which would have threatened it immensely, and the first time I brought out Slowking there was no way I would be staying in with that Ttar there, so there wasn't much point in trying to mess with a TR that wouldn't go up.

    As for Thund-I, I've mostly seen it as a straight sweeper or used to cripple the hell out of the opponent with priority Twave or Discharge. Usually I see the Therian form on Rain Dance teams as opposed to the Incarnate form, but I agree that it's a very strong, very threatening, and very annoying pokemon. It has a lot of good qualities (speed, power, useful ability, STAB boosted by Rain, can easily cripple support or sweepers) that make it easy to fit onto a team.
  13. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast LOL STAFF FAG
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    Since the tournament ended (congrats Chase!) I've decided I'd post a battle from my semifinal round against gr8astard. Admittedly it was a bit haxy (I played like shit in the first battle and didn't use my own team in the third though ._.), but it was still a great battle. It also showcases Genesect and Kyurem, two Pokemon not found in VGC, as well as flaunting everyone's favorite jellyfish (fuck Tentacruel). I was running a simple Scarf set on Kyurem and I've already gone over my Genesect, but regarding Jellicent:

    [​IMG]
    Jellicent @ Wacan Berry
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Shadow Ball
    - Trick Room

    Jellicent can function as both a Rain check and as an anti-Trick Room Pokemon. I've had much better results with Jellicent than I have with Gastrodon to be honest - while they both kind of sit there, Jellicent does more than check Rain and get boned by every Grass-type ever. Shadow Ball is nice for hitting the vast majority of Rain Pokemon neutrally (unlike Gastrodon's typical Water/Ground/Ice moves, when it can usually only pick two and lose to something or other). Has anyone else been using Jelly > Gastrodon?
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Firestorm, thanks for the article link! I'll ask NixHex or Arcticblast to add some of the NuggetBridge articles under table of contents!

    Wow this was the first game that displayed competitive use of After You - well-played indeed! Also Landorus is soo underrated atm - it's sheer force set is riduculously good in Doubles, too, it needs to be used more. I am absolutely appalled that the Antar's Doubles usage stats have Landorus placed UU x_x;; that's a criminal offense! I suppose being Rain and Blizzard weak doesn't help Landorus's case.

    It was nice seeing how effective Thundurus - Landorus combo worked here. This duo seems to face difficulty versus Lati@s and Cresselia, though, so proper support is definitely necessary (in this case, the opponent had Tyranitar and Scarf Cloyster).

    @ Arcticblast: Thanks for the replay, mate! More people should run BlizzSpam imo. I've seen Jellicent used as an OTR mon, paired with a slow Surf user like Politoed or Gastrodon. Basically, Jellicent sets up Trick Room and spams Water Spout as Politoed or Gastrodon wrecks the enemy and heals Jellicent with Surf. Politoed is particularly cool, because its Drizzle boosts Jellicent's Water Spout to overwhelming levels.
  15. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Landorus-I doesn't see much use because Landorus-T is better, that's pretty much all there is to it. Landorus-I isn't bad on its own merits.
  16. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I wouldn't say Lando-T is straight better--Lando-T seems more like a physical attacker you'd use for intimidate support whereas Lando-I seems more like a special attacker meant to wreck everything, I dunno.
  17. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Sand Force EQ and rock slide in doubles is what people are saying is underrated, not the special set.
    It sort of depends on needs I guess if you consider the physical sets. How well you can keep sand up and if you can KO physical attackers reliably and quickly. I would prefer Lando-T because I like the idea of the Intimidate safety net and not being forced to use sand.
    Also, Excadrill gives physical Lando-I stiff competition for a team slot and running both for the triple water weakness(without counting the last 3 mons) and huge sand reliance is kind of silly.
  18. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I've used Jelly too. I went for a 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD spread to improve Jelly's better defense stat, whilst investing 120 EVs into Def to survive Ttar's Crunch. I also used a Sitrus Berry over a Wacan Berry, so Jellicent wouldn't die to SS damage after Ttar's Crunch, and it's always useful compared to Wacan Berry. Plus with its SpD EVs, it can take Thunderbolts; even Electric Gem Timid Thundurus-I's Thunderbolt only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO. Obviously I miss out on the perks for max defense, but I had Intimidate support to help compensate that.

    Main reason I used Jellicent was to finish my FWG core whilst providing a reliable TR user who could simultaneously check Water-type teams and give me a switch-in into a variety of attacks, most notably Water and Fighting-type attacks. It's main flaw was it's low SpA. When uninvested, it does pretty low damage and often relies on a Scald burn to do major damage, where as Gastrodon can compensate with a potential SpA boost and Muddy Water targetting both opponents.
  19. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I might have to test out the Jellicent you guys are talking about, and swap Surf onto Kingdra over Muddy Water. Has anyone tried a Specs Jellicent with a bulky spread with this strategy?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I've recently been having some fun with Rain (Blank's Rainy Day) and been testing some rather unconventional/underrated mons with it.

    My favorites so far have been SubRoost Dragonite sets with bulkier spreads, and SubCM Latias. I'll give a breakdown of both as well as the sets I've run.

    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 SpAtk
    Calm Nature
    -Hurricane
    -Substitute
    -Roost
    -Thunder Wave/Thunder

    The SubRoost Dragonite is usually seen with TWave/DTail as a parashuffler, but I've been running mine with Hurricane and TWave for Parafusion Hax alongside either Ferrothorn (Seed/Protect/PWhip/Twave), Specially Defensive Politoed (Toxic/Surf/Protect/Rain Dance), or even Muddy Water Kingdra (Muddy Water/Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse/Protect). These sets aim to cripple the opponents, deal spread damage, or just stall out til a switch comes in to gain some extra momentum. Obviously, this strategy has some trouble dealing with things like OTR and VoltTurn, but thankfully, those have been pretty rare so far. Dragonite is such a champ on this strategy because between Multiscale and Substitute, he can wreak havoc with Perfect Accuracy Hurricanes, which even unboosted, hit way too hard, and follow it up with Paralyzing everything that remotely threatens it. Thunder can even work here for a more offensive route, with 30% paralyze, and then ReSubbing to do it all again.

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpDef / 8 Spe
    Bold/Calm Nature
    -Substitute
    -Calm Mind
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Surf

    Latias is also a fun mon for this strategy, although a bit less bulky, but I remedy this with a SubCM set. the idea here is to grab a few CMs behind a Sub, while Politoed sits next to you and spams Surf and Toxic, or Ferrothron sits by and Double Seeds/Paralyzes everything. Then, start spamming your own Surfs, or Dragon Pulse behind a Sub, which Politoed can't break even with Surf Spam. This strategy is a bit newer, and lacks the staying power of Dragonite, but adds a ton more power to the mix.
  20. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    I read this post and I was really incredulous that a bulky booster like this could work in Doubles. Faced B_Z's team on the ladder and all my suspicions were absolutely confirmed; this set is awful. Nobody running any kind of offensive presence is going to give this Pokemon any room to set up enough CM boosts to sweep and substitute is definitely a complete joke that you'll never get to use. One of latias's main selling points, her speed, is absolutely thrown away as you now give every dragon the ability to outrun you. Latias is a good supporting pokemon, by all means use her, but not this set ¬_¬

    know what dragon i do want to talk about? Everyone's favorite geometrically nicknamed offensive powerhouse, that's who:

    [​IMG]
    Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
    Adamant/Jolly
    Teravolt
    252 Atk / 224 Spe / 32 HP
    -Dragon Claw
    -Outrage
    -Fusion Bolt
    -Ice Beam / Blizzard

    the idea behind this guy is that if you see an intimidate user on your opponent's team, you lead with him and the appropriate partner. All Intimidators are leads. Don't ask why, they just are lol. For Lando-T, Mence, and Gyara i use the standard Fake Out Hitmontop, and with opposing Hitmontop i suck it up and realize i'll have to KO with someone else because fake out is a bitch. All intimidate users feel comfortable against two physical opponents at -1 atk, so they fail to realize that kyurem still koes with his appropriate move—fusion bolt for gyara, ice beam for mence or lando-t. Blizzard is for when you're running hail or feeling ballsy. honestly 70% is probably good enough for ladder play but fuck hax. Mence needs to be Faked Out by Hitmontop but with the other two, fighter man can fake out the other opponent and i get a free turn. From there, public enemy #1 cleared, Kyurem-B switches out and is free to return later to wreck the shit out of everything living with Dragon Claw. Other common leads it beats when you don't need to crush Intimidators include basically everything that doesn't run protect and isn't named cresselia (jesus fucking christ cresselia). No other dragon can stand up to his might!* His TeraVolt suppresses Multiscale which is really nice as most Dnite users forget about that. the power of a choice band Dragon Claw is really goddamn impressive (surprise), but at the same time you shouldn't /over/estimate it. Some relevant calcs:

    252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 168-198 (37.83 - 44.59%) -- guaranteed 3HKO <- jesus fucking christ cresselia
    252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 334-394 (95.42 - 112.57%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 334-394 (86.97 - 102.6%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

    you know what fuck it the moral of the story here is i really hate cresselia

    edit: oh right i forgot to mention jolly is in case you want to beat jolly lando-t but that's like 20% of lando-t so like seriously is it worth the extra STRONG to do that and besides i bet a lot of jolly Ts run scarf

    *Except that almost all of them outspeed
  21. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    My Latias works. Your Kyub is just redonk and I have 3 dragons on my team already.

    SubCM Latias does work. Just not against your HO Rain team.
  22. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast LOL STAFF FAG
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    Why would you run three Dragons when Blizzspam is a thing...? q_q

    I'd like to back up Pwnemon - having used literally his exact team in StarmanXL's tournament (no really, before I made my Hail team I used that and my Gigalith TR team and went 2-0 every round until losing to gr8astard in semis), I can attest to Kyurem-B's power. If you need something crippled or straight up murdered, Kyurem-B is the 'mon to do it. Of course, it isn't perfect, and occasionally misses a KO, but hey, you can't get much stronger than that.
  23. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Having also used Kyurem-B with Pwnemon's team (who here hasn't used that team? That fucker should go in the RMT archive or some shit) I can attest to Cube's power. I don't think BlankZero was knocking it, though, just saying that it's pretty fucking ridiculous with what it can do.

    I've used Latias to good effect, but I don't see subCM working all that great. You got any replays, by any chance?
  24. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Not any really great replays against good players, but I have gotten a few good KOs with it. I may try a Fast and bulky spread with pure boosting to get the power I want though.

    Honestly, it does work. Pwne's HO Rain team just steamrolls me because I can't break his momentum without good prediction and Protect spams.
  25. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime You play victimless, but you gave the kiss of death
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Doubles Queen

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,229
    I personally think more people need to use Hyreigon
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