General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Hypno is pretty much outclassed vastly by Dusclops as pointed out by Joim. On the topic of inner focus, it seems as if Crobat and Sneasel are the only two mons other than Umbreon that have niche use of it. Sneasel has already seen lots of use as a Beat Up partner/Fake Out user.
    However, Crobat gets me thinking. 130 base speed Taunt is obvious and its nice that it can't be flinched in doubles. You also have Acrobatics and Super Fang as noted by the VGC analysis. I was thinking though... would Wide Lens Hypnosis+Victory Star or possibly just using Gravity work out? A super fast sleep move without being flinched is pretty sweet. You also aren't forced to run Sun or Trick Room to accomplish this(although you need accuracy support unless you are ballsy).
  2. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Ok maybe I worded that wrong but the fact remains that gastrodon is a good mon for sandstorm teams and being able to draw water attacks, even if it just makes the enemy think twice about using them and makes it easier to get your Tyranitar back in it's useful. What would you suggest sandstorm teams run, then, to get the leg up on rain teams?

    Also never said that seaking was good only that abusing soak is fun, that’s all. About the viability chart, like we said before it's a good start but it would be nice to have a project where we both have the rankings but can also see the basis behind them from community discussion and consensus.
  3. BlankZero

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    Actually, a Seaking with Lightningrod + Choice Specs Zapdos spamming Discharge on a rain team might be fun with Seaking using Soak to hit the peeps coming in to try being immune to the electric spam and making them take double damage.

    Those 2 might make a very fun Rain Team.

    Also, using Thunderus-T mould be more powerful, but possibly unneeded due to Soak.
  4. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    If anything, I think it's even less important than it is in singles (where I still don't think it's that important). You're so likely to take random chip damage from spread moves or taking advantage of resistances that any 100-0 damage calculation is unreliable at best. EVing bulky crap to survive Draco Meteors is about the best you can do consistently. In singles, you're more likely to get the matchup you want and have the calculation hold true because your opponent doesn't have a second mon to hit you with when they switch the other one out.
  5. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I have come to the conclusion that After You is way cool and best used on goodstuff teams where you don't load your team fulla super slow pokes for no reason.

    Do we have speed tiers, or should we just play off of the VGC ones?
  6. Bent1ey

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    Is anyone currently using Tangrowth in this format? Great defenses + Chlorophyl or Regenerator + Rage Powder sounds interesting all in all.
  7. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I've been considering using it, but I really just haven't found a way to fit him onto a team. Typically Amoongus has the bulky grass with rage powder thing down pact, especially since it gets the more reliable spore.
  8. nyttyn

    nyttyn

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    After You has the huge problem of being +0 priority though, with literally nothing having access to After You + Prankster. Really makes it a bitch to use, as it has a extremely narrow list of criteria that need to be fulfilled before it is your best option (Have a faster mon then the other pokemon, have a mon slower then the enemy who needs to act first, and the fast mon can't do the job, and priority won't cut it). I can't really see many oppertunities where it would be useful, especially considering 99% of the pokemon that get it are, somewhat bafflingly, slow as shit. The only viable users would be Lilligant and Mew from what I can see, and only with a 252 HP / 252 Spe (or in Lilly's case she can probably get away with 252 Spa / 252 Spe) spread, sacrificing a ton of bulk for a very niche move.
  9. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    Guys, I'd like you all to read Zach's word of advice. Namely, if you're going to suggest gimmicky stuff, back it up with evidence. Theorymoning about SEAKING as a Soak utility mon falls egregiously in the territory of gimmicks, and unless you have actual playtesting experience with some logs / replays to elaborate on this strategy, don't post about it.

    Nice to have you back, but I disagree with this. Unlike Singles, a metagame where games last longer and are heavy on hazards and voltturns, there are much less "chip damage" opportunities in Doubles imo. This is particularly true for the first two mons that lead the game, because they are coming at perfect health. Not to mention that double-targeting is a large setback and risk (what if the target uses Protect?) in doubles - ideally you'd want to hit both opponents with your mons. So if one can EV their mons up to survive a common attack, they put the opponent at a disadvantage by forcing them to attack that one mon with both Pokemon or expect some kind of retaliation from that tank. That's what makes Focus Sash users so terrible to face in Doubles, too.
  10. BlankZero

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    Focus Sash whimsicott, Sableye, Breloom, Genies.... Basically anything you'd want to kill off that threatens you severely can run a sash and make folks mad as hell, especially since rocks and spikes are uncommon as shit.
  11. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    In response to Audio's post, just hiding again to preserve space.
    Show Hide
    That's the first issue. That's a VGC 2012 analysis, so it's pretty outdated, and the spreads aren't given any thought. I'll get to that one in a sec.

    To do that, you have to understand why you're using it. To do that, you need to understand what it KOs, what it survives, and what its niches actually do for your teammates. That's what the calcs are for, they help prove the points you want to make to validate its use.

    Staying power against what? I know not everything is specific like MrE commented before, but it's still wise to calculate big hits and key hits from mons that you're going to see time and time again. Knowing you take two Zen Headbutts from Metagross and can KO back is a very reassuring feeling heading into the battle. It's an upper hand on your opponent and a very good knowledge of your own team, a double whammy.

    False, with the new tutors this combination is 100% possible now.

    It's more for covering your bases. What if you need to stay in? What if a very predictable switch causes you to sacrifice a Pokemon in the back that you did not need to lose? It's the little things like this that the resist berries are good for. This is also why type synergy on a team is great, but that's going way too far for a simple Swampert idea. It's useful, random HP grass and stuff like that is everywhere too.

    Good call, this is something that I often overlook and probably should put together. I'll talk it over with people and see what everyone's needing the most help with, and I'll focus on that and draw an EVing guide up. It's mostly just calculating the most common hits (can it survive a Metagross Meteor Mash and/or Zen Headbutt? Cresselia Psyshock? Shaymin Air Slash? Tyranitar Crunch? Politoed rain-boosted Scald?) These are simple calcs that don't take too much time or effort, but can provide incredible benefits of an upper hand in commonly recurrent situations.

    Just a sidenote:
    It's never a bad thing to admit you're a bit unsure and step back and learn. Joim's signature is a great quote on this.... but on an ironic note, it also points out that it's a really hypocritical feeling trying to post anything like this post, since I really don't care for recognition for anything and don't really want any power or whatever, but at the same time, I have to at least be able to express why what I'm sharing is validated by experience. When you see someone who has never stepped into doubles for more than a couple months (or has just played casually) trying to sell a very unfounded idea, it's hard to just sit there and watch anything that doesn't appear to fit the long-term observations be accepted as fact without some dismissed objection and explanation. I have no issues with anyone bringing up a Pokemon for discussion, especially if it's a solid idea (such as Swampert, which is very legitimate), just understand that I'm one heck of a skeptic on most things. It's a really hard attitude to have in the short run, but in the long run skepticism on things and playing devil's advocate on things has really helped me out. This is why I encourage doing things that really can give an idea of why a Pokemon is really good- strong damage calculating, presenting synergetic teams, and the like. I highlighted it in a post a couple pages back.

    If anyone has anything they'd like to see from VGC or any thoughts I have on more precise areas of how this format's structural differences may affect the previously known powerhouses, let me know and I'll do my best to put together some data and advice on that. I have little knowledge of the legendaries thus far, though, and am not willing to confidently analyze something so foreign. It's only been a couple months for me in this, which is not enough time to accurately depict anything. I need to see how they work on and against legitimately solid teams/players. I'm going to be sort of busy the next two weeks with regionals coming up, but after that I should be free for a couple of weeks, so I'll have plenty of time to do writeups and that kind of stuff :)
  12. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Well any analysis of the unbanned ubers would be great. I somehow get the feeling that they've got untapped potential (except Deoxys-D. I have no idea what useful role that thing could possibly fulfill that isn't done better by another pokemon) and I'd love to at least get a feel for what they could do. Thundurus-I, I think, already has plenty of usage to back up why it's good and you've seen how we've gushed about Genesect.
  13. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    Commonly accepted term for using an electric attack on something you soaked is Towel Mode. Enjoy!
    jio wrote an amazing guide that really should be read by more people:
    http://nuggetbridge.com/articles/making-good-ev-spreads/
  14. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    That article is what helped me do so well in the last Intl Challenge and what shapes my EVs in Doubles. It makes you really think about "How can I spend these 510 points most effectively."
  15. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I think it might also help once we have March's usage stats. Hopefully there'll be EV and moveset stats as well, to get a better idea of what one has to prepare for.

    EDIT: On an unrelated note, I just ran across a player on the ladder who wrecked me with some very interesting mons. I hadn't seen much of Sand Force (at least I think it's Sand Force, given the team) Landorus-I and an Anti-TR Musharna using After You--my opponent was in the mid 1700's so I think it's quite safe to say he knew what he was doing

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles13475692

    I also found it interesting that he used at least two choice scarf pokemon, which didn't seem to hamper him any during the match. Has anyone seen any similar strategies> I wonder if After You would make Musharna a more popular pick for offensive teams combating TR, although I've only seen it once so I don't know how reliable it is.
  16. HabibsHotDogs

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    Wow I loved his team, that Musharna looks great! when I looked at after you I always thought of how pointless it would be with 0 priority and the fastest user being so fragile. Never thought about using it with/against trick room, loved the replay!
  17. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Goodstuffs Teams are generally getting better, especially versus specific weathers and TR. they tend to lack against Rain Balanced and Sand Abuse teams though.

    That Musharna was definitely being saved for TR though. If he had played it sooner, I think it would have gone differently, because as Bulky as it is, it is easier to take out than Cresselia.

    I had an idea though. Has anyone really looked at how well Thundy-I fits into almost every team out there? I don't think I've seen a single Goodstuffs without one, and a lot of Rain teams as well seem to be throwing it in to add Tailwind to their Swift Swimmers to mess with other Rain teams, as well as to screw up other weather sweepers like Excadrill and Venusaur, cutting the speed gap instantly.

    How else are you all seeing Thundurus-I used?
  18. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer Expect Amazing
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    Figured I'd say that after giving this some thought and sort of taking a step back from my previous position of being more defensive despite there being flaws in my post that were pointed out, I did learn a good amount from this, especially with Braverius's reply above helping to put things in perspective. Anyways, after running some calcs, I figured I would repost a Swampert set using that knowledge and the guidelines from the article that Firestorm linked to hopefully give a better set that will be more useful to people overall.

    [​IMG]

    Swampert @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 176 HP / 242 Atk / 88 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch
    - Wide Guard / Protect

    Since I was using this on a Hail team where Steel and Firetypes are a huge threat to it, I EVd it to be able to handle common Steel types, namely Metagross who is more difficult to beat than Scizor due to an immunity to Intimidate and a lack of a 4x Fire weakness, as well as Fire types commonly found on Sun teams. 88 Speed lets Swampert outspeed 4 Speed Metagross and also gets the jump on 8 Speed Scizor. 176 HP EVs mean that you get 3HKOed by Zen Headbutt from max Attack Metagross, and with the investments in Attack, you can 2HKO in response (without weather the chance of the 2HKO is like 97.66% anyways which is still pretty great). With the HP EVs you can also dodge a 2HKO from Occa Berry Scizor's Bug Bite (You have a 48% chance to be 2HKOed, so it's by no means a sure check, but it can be useful to handle a weakened Scizor). Sitrus Berry is on the set since it means that you're guaranteed to be 3HKOed by Metagross's Zen Headbutt even with weather damage, letting this set effectively beat Metagross. It also handles threatening Fire types well such as Blaziken, Victini or Ninetales, as it can tank a max SpA Iron Ball Ninetale's Energy Ball and outspeeds and 2HKOs in return with Earthquake, can also live through a LO Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick and OHKOs in return with Earthquake, and lives a V-Create from LO Victini in the sun and OHKOs with Earthquake after the Defense drop.

    Waterfall and Earthquake are for its STAB moves and give it good offensive coverage, and Ice Punch lets Swampert hit Grass and Dragon types that might otherwise take advantage of it (ex: it can beat special Salamence even after being Intimidated). Wide Guard lets it defend its teammate against common spread moves such as Rock Slide or Heat Wave that could otherwise be deadly to a Hail team, but Protect is a viable option if you don't need the Wide Guard support.

    Calcs:
    Show Hide

    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 178 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 177-208 (45.97 - 54.02%) -- 48.44% chance to 2HKO

    242+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 188-224 (51.64 - 61.53%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO

    252+ Atk Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 178 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 162-192 (42.07 - 49.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 178 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 222-262 (57.66 - 68.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    -2 252 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 178 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 111-132 (28.83 - 34.28%) -- 2.93% chance to 3HKO

    -1 242+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 256-304 (77.34 - 91.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 178 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 308-364 (80 - 94.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    242+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 300-354 (85.71 - 101.14%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 178 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 286-337 (74.28 - 87.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    242+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 318-374 (105.29 - 123.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 178 HP / 0 Def Swampert in sun: 261-308 (67.79 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    242+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 356-420 (104.39 - 123.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  19. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Well to be fair he had no reason to bring out Musharna any earlier than he did. A lot of the time Scrafty, Escavalier, or Genesect were on the field which would have threatened it immensely, and the first time I brought out Slowking there was no way I would be staying in with that Ttar there, so there wasn't much point in trying to mess with a TR that wouldn't go up.

    As for Thund-I, I've mostly seen it as a straight sweeper or used to cripple the hell out of the opponent with priority Twave or Discharge. Usually I see the Therian form on Rain Dance teams as opposed to the Incarnate form, but I agree that it's a very strong, very threatening, and very annoying pokemon. It has a lot of good qualities (speed, power, useful ability, STAB boosted by Rain, can easily cripple support or sweepers) that make it easy to fit onto a team.
  20. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast improsin + bapongbas gg,,,,,,
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    Since the tournament ended (congrats Chase!) I've decided I'd post a battle from my semifinal round against gr8astard. Admittedly it was a bit haxy (I played like shit in the first battle and didn't use my own team in the third though ._.), but it was still a great battle. It also showcases Genesect and Kyurem, two Pokemon not found in VGC, as well as flaunting everyone's favorite jellyfish (fuck Tentacruel). I was running a simple Scarf set on Kyurem and I've already gone over my Genesect, but regarding Jellicent:

    [​IMG]
    Jellicent @ Wacan Berry
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Shadow Ball
    - Trick Room

    Jellicent can function as both a Rain check and as an anti-Trick Room Pokemon. I've had much better results with Jellicent than I have with Gastrodon to be honest - while they both kind of sit there, Jellicent does more than check Rain and get boned by every Grass-type ever. Shadow Ball is nice for hitting the vast majority of Rain Pokemon neutrally (unlike Gastrodon's typical Water/Ground/Ice moves, when it can usually only pick two and lose to something or other). Has anyone else been using Jelly > Gastrodon?
  21. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
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    Firestorm, thanks for the article link! I'll ask NixHex or Arcticblast to add some of the NuggetBridge articles under table of contents!

    Wow this was the first game that displayed competitive use of After You - well-played indeed! Also Landorus is soo underrated atm - it's sheer force set is riduculously good in Doubles, too, it needs to be used more. I am absolutely appalled that the Antar's Doubles usage stats have Landorus placed UU x_x;; that's a criminal offense! I suppose being Rain and Blizzard weak doesn't help Landorus's case.

    It was nice seeing how effective Thundurus - Landorus combo worked here. This duo seems to face difficulty versus Lati@s and Cresselia, though, so proper support is definitely necessary (in this case, the opponent had Tyranitar and Scarf Cloyster).

    @ Arcticblast: Thanks for the replay, mate! More people should run BlizzSpam imo. I've seen Jellicent used as an OTR mon, paired with a slow Surf user like Politoed or Gastrodon. Basically, Jellicent sets up Trick Room and spams Water Spout as Politoed or Gastrodon wrecks the enemy and heals Jellicent with Surf. Politoed is particularly cool, because its Drizzle boosts Jellicent's Water Spout to overwhelming levels.
  22. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Landorus-I doesn't see much use because Landorus-T is better, that's pretty much all there is to it. Landorus-I isn't bad on its own merits.
  23. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I wouldn't say Lando-T is straight better--Lando-T seems more like a physical attacker you'd use for intimidate support whereas Lando-I seems more like a special attacker meant to wreck everything, I dunno.
  24. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Sand Force EQ and rock slide in doubles is what people are saying is underrated, not the special set.
    It sort of depends on needs I guess if you consider the physical sets. How well you can keep sand up and if you can KO physical attackers reliably and quickly. I would prefer Lando-T because I like the idea of the Intimidate safety net and not being forced to use sand.
    Also, Excadrill gives physical Lando-I stiff competition for a team slot and running both for the triple water weakness(without counting the last 3 mons) and huge sand reliance is kind of silly.
  25. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Captain Underpants
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    I've used Jelly too. I went for a 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD spread to improve Jelly's better defense stat, whilst investing 120 EVs into Def to survive Ttar's Crunch. I also used a Sitrus Berry over a Wacan Berry, so Jellicent wouldn't die to SS damage after Ttar's Crunch, and it's always useful compared to Wacan Berry. Plus with its SpD EVs, it can take Thunderbolts; even Electric Gem Timid Thundurus-I's Thunderbolt only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO. Obviously I miss out on the perks for max defense, but I had Intimidate support to help compensate that.

    Main reason I used Jellicent was to finish my FWG core whilst providing a reliable TR user who could simultaneously check Water-type teams and give me a switch-in into a variety of attacks, most notably Water and Fighting-type attacks. It's main flaw was it's low SpA. When uninvested, it does pretty low damage and often relies on a Scald burn to do major damage, where as Gastrodon can compensate with a potential SpA boost and Muddy Water targetting both opponents.
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