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DP Flygon .

Aldaron

Aldaron

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I've been trying to use Flygon recently, and my main issue was really...why use it over Garchomp? There were only three big reasons that I would do so: Levitate, Roost and U-turn. My testing with Flygon allowed me narrow usage to two of the three.

[SET]
Name: Stall Flygon
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Roost
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 Spe
Nature: Timid

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Flygon has three distinct advantages over Garchomp: Roost, U-turn, and Levitate. This set utilizes Levitate and Roost to Flygon's maximum potential. 281 Speed is reached to outspeed 278 Speed Heatran, 279 Speed Lucario, and general 280 Speed Pokemon.</p>

<p>364 HP and 240 Defense isn't particularly bulky, but this Flygon isn't going to be absorbing physical hits. Its purpose is to minimize residual damage as much as possible in order to allow Roost + Toxic to take its toll on the opponent. The reason a Dragon move is not chosen is because Earthquake + Fire Blast hit all the Pokemon that are immune to Toxic for Super Effective damage (besides Weezing, Gengar and Crobat). Earthquake is chosen over Earth Power because it does more damage on average, and deals more damage to Heatran / Tentacruel, both of which resist Fire Blast and are immune to Toxic.</p>

<p>Flygon is unique in that it is the only Pokemon in the OU metagame that takes some sort of reduced damage from all of Fire, Electric and Ground attacks, and this fact should be emphasized at all times when using Flygon. Its useful resists are why Roost is such a quality move on it, as Roost allows the user to continually switch Flygon in to take Fire Blast, Earthquake or Thunderbolt.</p>
 
Although it isn't common, Crobat is also immune to Toxic while not being hit for super effective, isn't it? Also, can you clarify what the defense EVs accomplish? I find it confusing because you say Flygon "isn't going to be absorbing physical hits," so what residual damage do the defense EVs minimize?
 
Aldaron said:
The reason a Dragon move is not chosen is because Earth Power + Fire Blast hit all the Pokemon that are immune to Toxic for Super Effective damage (besides Weezing and Crobat).</p>
Click to expand...

And Gengar.

The set looks good on paper, but ToxicStalling is generally not a good strategy in practice. Even with Flygon's great defensive typing, I am curious to see how much damage this thing actually takes from threats across the board considering its mediocre defensive stats. Some calculations would be nifty here, like for example Heatran's Fire Blast, Lucario's SD Extremespeed, and maybe even a Salamence Fire Blast. 80/80/80 is decent, but not great defensive stats although I'm sure the resistances make up for it. I'm really not sure at how effective this set can be over the long run considering the overabundance of Ice moves due to Garchomp and the fact that Roost doesn't remove Flygon's 4x weakness to it. Sure, you can hurt Cresselia and Gyarados on the switch with Toxic, but they will still beat you.

Also, the offensive part of this Flygon kinda bothers me too. What are you going to hit with only 165 Special Attack? I know the point of the set is to ToxicStall, but sometimes you will actually need to hit something and I really don't think this Flygon is capable of making a dent.

I really, really think this set would be great in UU/BL play but I think Flygon is just too mediocre to pull something like this in the fast paced, hard hitting arena of OU.
 
Uh, lol Flygon has 196 Special Attack.

And please don't tell me something I have been using to success on the ladder is only good on paper, I don't theorymon =/
 
Serebii's stat chart is wrong. It says min spatk with neutral nature on Flygon is 165, that is where I got the data. Even still, 196 is not that good of an attack score when you are only utilizing one STAB move =\

I am not attacking you, nor did I ever say that it was only good on paper. Why would you post a set if you were going to take questions and criticisms like that? I simply said that Toxic Stalling is generally not a good idea to do, which is evidenced by the fact that pretty much nothing uses it. In the analysis, you just say that this set works without actually proving Flygon's defensive capabilites, so I am naturally skeptical considering its stat distribution. Maybe you could explain how you use it to success? I feel that the situations I described are perfectly reasonable situations considering that you emphasize Flygon's resistance to Fire and the fact that it outspeeds Lucario. What advantages does this have over, say, Zapdos that can use the same set with much more attacking power, arguably better type coverage with different resistances?
 
Man, you want damage calculations for every speculative scenario ?_?

We're going to have some HUGE analyses then ;D

But fine, when I feel like it I'll do it.

Also jrrrrrr, I never said you were attacking me, and I never even implied that I could not take criticism. All I asked you to do was not say that the set only looked good on paper, because that directly implies I am only theorymonning the set as opposed to applying my direct battle knowledge.

If that isn't what you meant to imply, then there is no harm done anyway.
 
Aldaron said:
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Flygon has three distinct advantages over Garchomp: Levitate and therefore the ability to be immune to Toxic Spikes / Spikes and Ground attacks, Roost and U-turn.
Click to expand...
Kind of awkward, so I would change it to:
Aldaron said:
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Flygon has three distinct advantages over Garchomp: U-turn, Roost, and Levitate, giving it the ability to be immune to Toxic Spikes / Spikes and Ground attacks.
Click to expand...
In any case, move Levitate and the comments after it to the end; it flows much better.
 
Just wondering how viable Earthquake would be over Earth Power? Even on a Timid nature, you're hitting with a 150BP move from a 212 Attack score, rather than a 135BP move from a 196 SpA score. Sure, Earth Power hits harder against the poor SpD physical walls, but surely you'll be Toxic'ing them anyway?
 
Aldaron said:
Man, you want damage calculations for every speculative scenario ?_?

We're going to have some HUGE analyses then ;D

But fine, when I feel like it I'll do it.
Click to expand...

No, I don't feel that everything needs damage calcs to be an effective analysis. But, I was just bamboozled by the fact that youre posting a defensive set/spread on a normally offensive pokemon, emphasizing its often overlooked defenses and resistances, but then there is no numerical data to back it up. I was thinking "can this really be a Heatran counter? Do we finally have a Lucario stopper that isn't weak to Rock and/or Dark?". I was just looking at your Azumarill analysis and even though you don't have any damage calculations, the numbers you provide are a very convincing argument, whereas here we are just relying on your word. That is good enough in most cases, but this is set is out of the ordinary and could probably be aided by some out of the ordinary statistical back-up. The analysis isn't bad, don't get me wrong, but this set/spread is far from a "common sense" build and I feel that there really needs to be *some* persuasion as to how effective it can really be.

Also, seconding Lee's notion of Earthquake as an option over Earth Power, especially in the face of Tyranitar since its SpDef boost in the sand negates your STAB. That is part of my concern of merely 196 SpAtk.

p.s. today isn't my birthday :(
p.p.s. i still wuv u :)
 
You should also mention that Flygon can do this set the physical way as well, just in case someone's team calls for it to be physical and not specially-oriented. Fire Punch/Earthquake can be options over Fire Blast/Earth Power for this reason. Actually, I guess what Lee suggested is a lot better anyway. Otherwise, very good set.
 
[SET]
Name: Stall Flygon
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Roost
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 Spe
Nature: Timid
Ability: Levitate
Click to expand...

I actually think using mix-orientated offensive attacks will work better so it can KO certain Pokemons that stops it from stalling like Forretress and Heatran. Forry is always physically defensive orientated so using Fire Blast would make sense. Heatran is usually more special defensive if it is a 'walling' set so Earthquake hurts it more, being able to OHKO 252 HP Heatrans over 75% of the time, and always OHKo with SR or Spike on the field.

[SET COMMENTS]
The reason a Dragon move is not chosen is because Earthquake + Fire Blast hit all the Pokemon that are immune to Toxic for Super Effective damage (besides Weezing, Gengar and Crobat).</p>
Click to expand...

That's if you change it to EQ.
 
I agree that Earthquake should be used over Earth Power. The ground type move will be hitting pokemon like Heatran and Tentacruel harder(Although less power on Metagross).

Also jrrrrrr, the minimum is 165. That includes a 0 IV in Sp.Atk. Since Aldaron's has 31 in Atk, you have to add 31 to 165 and you get what Aldaron said, 196.
 
Dude, there was a Flygon peer edit by me in progress... NOT COOL :(. I'll link to it so you or I can merge them, one sec.
 
Aldaron said:
<p>Flygon is unique in that it is the only Pokemon in the OU metagame that takes some sort of reduced damage from all of Fire, Electric and Ground attacks, and this fact should be emphasized at all times when using Flygon. Its useful resists are why Roost is such a quality move on Flygon, as Roost allows the user to continually switch Flygon in to take Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, or Earthquake.</p>
Click to expand...


You listed the typings that way in the previous sentence, and you forgot the comma.
 
Yes MetaNite, but Garchomp lacks Roost (first of all), Levititate, and U-Turn, all of which can increase Flygon's longevity. The first sentence of this Peer Edit pretty much explains that...

Anyways, pretty good, if I see any nitpicks I'll edit them in here.
 
jimbo422 said:
Yes MetaNite, but Garchomp lacks Roost (first of all), Levititate, and U-Turn, all of which can increase Flygon's longevity. The first sentence of this Peer Edit pretty much explains that...

Anyways, pretty good, if I see any nitpicks I'll edit them in here.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Only Levitate gives it a resistance.

I think it should be stated earlier in the peer edit about its resists...
 
When you use the phrase "roost allows you to switch in on fire blast, earthquake, and thunderbolt" you might as well add in Stone Edge as well. "Edge-Quake" is pretty common so people would be glad to know that Flygon also has a stone edge resistance in-case they forget for whatever reason.
 
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