DP Gyarados

I'd like at least a dismissal of my case for Leftovers / Adamant as a secondary option on the first set. (Preferably a "sounds good Chris (adds)", but a "you're an idiot this is better" works too)
 
Erm, but why use Leftovers? To be honest we've all seen the potential that Life Orb gives to the set. But I guess if you feel that it should be mentioned then fine I can put it in.
 
I agree with Chris is me, Leftovers IS an option on DD Gyarados and is a good one at that. Life Orb doesn't necessarily make all the difference in the world. Celebi is still 2HKOed by Ice Fang after Stealth Rock usually and it is in Sandstorm (which certainly is another case for Leftovers cause you don't lose 16% a turn)
 
really bored at the library...some parts sound awkward and wordy and there are spelling errors so here are some changes

Colonel M said:
[SET]
name: Offensive Gyarados
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Ice Fang / Stone Edge
move 4: Stone Edge / Earthquake
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Adamant / Jolly
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>One of Gyarados's most powerful and intimidating sets as of date. The addition of physical Waterfall, Ice Fang, and Stone Edge has allowed Gyarados to become one of the most powerful sweepers in the OU metagame when played correctly. Dragon Dance is obviously the crux of this set as well as the EVs, outpacing Jolly Tyranitar before a Dragon Dance and besting even Jolly Weavile after a Dragon Dance. STAB Waterfall gives the set an immense advantage over many physical sweepers as it easily purges bulky Grounds from the picture. The flinch rate from Waterfall is also helpful after a Dragon Dance. Ice Fang and Stone Edge give the best coverage alongside Waterfall. Despite the shaky accuracy of Stone Edge as well as Ice Fang at times, they're almost necessary to eliminate threats such as opposing Gyarados, Zapdos, Celebi, and Breloom. Earthquake can work in tandem with either Stone Edge or Ice Fang. Rock / Ground / Water gives well-rounded coverage but is walled by Breloom and has trouble with Celebi and Tangrowth. Ground / Water / Ice has issues with bulky flyers that are neutral to ice such as Skarmory and other Gyarados; this type combination is also walled by the rare Shedinja. Any of the aforementioned moves can work together as long as you use Waterfall and Dragon Dance.</p>

<p>Life Orb adds to the massive damage potential of this set. Gyarados is most effective in the late-game when everything is weakened or affected by status. Even after a Dragon Dance, most common OU pokemon are either 2HKO'd or even OHKO'd with minor exceptions such as Skarmory, Slowbro, and particularly bulky walls. Other than those small nuisances such as more bulky physical walls Gyarados can easily pose a massive threat (this sentence seems unnecessary and is awkwardly worded). A Jolly nature can be used instead of Adamant at the cost of less power.</p>

<p>Leftovers is a decent choice for an item on this set but you'll also realize that Gyarados will miss out on those necessary OHKOs or 2HKOs that Life Orb gives.</p>

[SET]
name: BulkyGyara
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Taunt
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
EVs: 216 HP / 16 Atk / 132 Def / 144 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Gyarados's typing and ability give it an advantage over many other Water-types. This set also attempts to use a slower, more defensive approach rather than the usual hard hitting, offensive strategy.(the next part of this sentence is redundant and unecessary) and uses a slower but more defensive approach. The total EVs give 385 HP / 319 Atk / 227 Def / 234 Spe. The HP allows you to switch into Stealth Rock five times and the Speed EVs allow you to outpace max Speed base 110s after a Dragon Dance. The set can be used to absorb some attacks that he either takes neutral or not very effective hits, such as Return and Close Combat, respectively. Taunt also differentiates this moveset from the others as it can prevent you from being phazed or crippled by status.</p>

<p>This set also has an easier time switching into Pokemon such as Skarmory and scaring it off thanks to the combination of Intimidate and Taunt, leaving it to use Brave Bird while you freely dance. Stone Edge gives you the upper hand against waters such as Suicune and Milotic if they lack HP Electric.</p>

<p>While the offensive Gyarados prefers to be used during the late-game, this set can be used in any phase of the game. The use of Taunt is crucial to this set because many moves such as Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, Roar, and other Taunt users screw around with the normal strategy. Dragon Dance allows you to threaten your opponent in the early-game but is more useful in the late-game when its counters have been sufficiently weakened.</p>

[SET]
name: RestTalk
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Dragon Dance / Stone Edge / Avalanche
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Gyarados is a very capable Sleep Talker and defensive pokemon in general. This set is designed to come in on physical threats and tank. Waterfall is for primary STAB, which works off Gyarados's fantastic attack stat. Stone Edge gives Gyarados a wide range of coverage alongside Waterfall, Dragon Dance can increase the chances of a late-game sweep, and Avalanche offers a more immediate solution to Dragons.</p>

<p>Thanks to Intimidate, this Gyarados takes physical hits on switch-ins just as well as a Milotic with Marvel Scale activated. The EVs ensure that Infernape will never KO with Grass Knot after a Nasty Plot. Additionally, a +1 Life Orb Stone Edge from an opposing Gyarados will never KO even after Stealth Rock damage.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
move 2: Ice Fang
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Earthquake
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Although not as threatening as some of the sets listed above, the early available source of power gives this an advantage. Removing Dragon Dance for a fourth move gives this perfect coverage against any switch-in. Aqua Tail can be used over Waterfall as the lack of Speed can justify the use of a more powerful, albeit less accurate move.</p>

[SET]
name: Flail
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Flail
item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Gyarados has the ability to easily switch into battle and force the opponent to switch. This set takes advantage of both factors in order to set up. On the turn the opponent switches to its counter, Gyarados will Substitute. Depending on the counter, Gyarados will either Dragon Dance or Substitute accordingly, and proceed to sweep with a huge advantage in Speed and Attack. It might seem like the ease by which this is done is being oversimplified; however, this cannot be farther from the truth. How does nearly every individual deal with Gyarados? By switching, which gives Gyarados the opportunity to set up its Substitute.</p>

<p>For example, if the opponent switched in Starmie, Gyarados will Substitute down to Liechi activation and Dragon Dance on the final Substitute breaking turn, giving Gyarados +2 Attack, +1 Speed and a 200 BP move to easily OHKO Starmie with. However, if something like Celebi was switched in the turn Gyarados used Substitute, Gyarados will then Dragon Dance, and use Substitute if it feels a Thunder Wave / Leech Seed coming or Dragon Dance if a Grass Knot is coming. Depending on the amount of health left, Gyarados will then (probably) Substitute again for the Berry activation, and have +3 Attack, +2 Speed and 200 BP move to deal with the opposition.</p>

<p>Liechi Berry or Salac Berry is purely a matter of preference in the end. It depends on whether having Gyarados outspeed Deoxys-S that switch in later or having the extra boost of Attack is preferred, mostly to OHKO threats like Celebi.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Two berries that weren't discussed can be used if you think that they warrant use. Wacan Berry helps soften the incoming Electric attack and could allow you to freely use Dragon Dance twice, once while the opponent switches-in and once after surviving the attack). This, alongside Offensive Gyarados with a Jolly nature, poses more of a threat than with an Adamant nature, Life Orb, and one Dragon Dance. Lum Berry also gives you a free Dragon Dance except by removing status instead. As with any Pokemon, a Choice Scarf can be slapped on the Choice Bander set, as the extra Speed can give Gyarados an edge in some situations.</p>

<p>Bite is only listed because it's Gyarados's best attack against Slowbro. On the offensive Gyarados it can OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie 100% of the time assuming that Starmie switches into Stealth Rock while you Dragon Dance. Return also gives near-perfect coverage alongside Waterfall, as Water / Normal is only resisted by Empoleon and Shedinja. It has a higher base power than Earthquake and Stone Edge most of the time (barring the critical hit), but doesn't hit any Pokemon for super effective damage. It works best in the BulkyGyara set as Water + Rock doesn't have the greatest of coverage. Thunder Wave is a move that causes major problems to some of Gyarados's switch-ins as no bulky Ground-type is foolish enough to switch in, and many Pokemon will not enjoy the combination of the paralysis rate and Waterfall's chance of flinching.</p>

<p>Gyarados has a myriad of special moves such as STAB Hydro Pump and Fire Blast. These can work under some conditions but almost require a boost from Life Orb in order to be effective. Hydro Pump can 2HKO Weezing while Fire Blast can 2HKO Skarmory and maims Forretress and Scizor.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Offensive Gyarados should use the given spread of max Speed and Attack. This spread gives 383 Atk / 261 Spe with an Adamant nature. The given Speed EVs will outspeed max Speed Tyranitar and max speed base 127s after a Dragon Dance. Max Attack is necessary with Life Orb. The HP EVs are leftover from there. Choice Band Gyarados should follow the same principle but can opt for more Speed, up to 252 EVs. This gives Gyarados 261 Speed, just enough to outpace base 80s with a neutral nature. You can also opt for less Speed as beating Jolly Tyranitar is a decent minimum.</p>

<p>Bulky Gyarados has many different EV spreads but 216 HP EVs allow Gyarados to switch into Stealth Rock five times with Leftovers factored in. The Speed EVs give Gyarados just enough Speed to outrun Timid Gengar after a Dragon Dance. The Attack EVs give Gyarados a total of 319 Attack which is still respectable for a Pokemon that plans to use Dragon Dance anyway while maintaining defenses. The rest is dumped into Defense for extra durability.</p>

[Dragon Dance Numbers]
<p>Because Gyarados doesn't know what he would like to outpace at times, Dragon Dance numbers come into question as concerning what Speed EVs should be considered. This section attempts to cover the Speed before a Dragon Dance, after a Dragon Dance, and what it can outspeed after.
Code: 
<h3><a id="Dragon Dance">Dragon Dance Numbers</a></h3>
 
<table class="sortable">
<thead>
<tr>
<th>EVs Used </th>
<th>Speed Hit </th>
<th>Speed Hit After Dragon Dance </th>
<th>+1 Outspeeds </th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>8 Spe </td>
<td>200 Spe </td>
<td>300 Spe </td>
<td>Neutral Base 100s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>84 Spe </td>
<td>219 Spe </td>
<td>328 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 100s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>116 Spe</td>
<td>227 Spe </td>
<td>340 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 105s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>136 Spe </td>
<td>232 Spe </td>
<td>348 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 108s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>144 Spe </td>
<td>234 Spe </td>
<td>251 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 110s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>184 Spe </td>
<td>244 Spe </td>
<td>366 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 115s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>204 Spe </td>
<td>249 Spe </td>
<td>373 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 120s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>236 Spe </td>
<td>257 Spe </td>
<td>384 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 125s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>252 Spe </td>
<td>261 Spe </td>
<td>391 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 127s </td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
Code: 
<h3><a id="Dragon Dance">Dragon Dance Numbers</a></h3>
 
<table class="sortable">
<thead>
<tr>
<th>EVs Used </th>
<th>Speed Hit </th>
<th>Speed Hit After Dragon Dance </th>
<th>+1 Outspeeds </th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>8 Spe </td>
<td>220 Spe </td>
<td>330 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 100's </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>36 Spe </td>
<td>227 Spe </td>
<td>340 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 105s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>52 Spe </td>
<td>232 Spe </td>
<td>348 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 108s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>60 Spe </td>

<td>234 Spe </td>
<td>351 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 110s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>96 Spe </td>
<td>244 Spe </td>
<td>366 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 115s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>116 Spe </td>
<td>248 Spe </td>
<td>373 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 120s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>144 Spe </td>
<td>257 Spe </td>
<td>384 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 125s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>156 Spe </td>
<td>260 Spe </td>
<td>388 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 127s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>168 Spe </td>
<td>264 Spe </td>
<td>396 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 130s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>220 Spe </td>
<td>278 Spe </td>
<td>417 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 140s </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>252 Spe </td>
<td>287 Spe </td>
<td>430 Spe </td>
<td>Positive Base 140s </td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

[Opinion]
<p>Gyarados has become a top contender as far as being a huge threat goes. His massive 125 Attack base stat, on top of his 95 base HP, 100 base Special Defense, and his Intimidate ability, makes him more bulky than many Pokemon of his structure. The typing may be a thorn to Gyarados as being x4 weak to Electric and x2 weak to Rock-type moves isn't very amusing; despite that, Gyarados can easily switch into many attacks thrown at him and set up with impunity. The improvements of a physical Waterfall, Stone Edge, Ice Fang, Taunt lasting longer, and Life Orb also gives Gyarados a boost to his ranks. And let's not forget that he has some key resistances including Water, Fighting, Bug, Fire, and Steel while sporting an immunity to Ground. This deadly combination makes Gyarados a top-tier threat in OU that should be handled with care. Any Pokemon that switches into Gyarados for the most part is going to leave either dead or extremely hurt.</p>

<p>On top of Electric and Rock-moves being a hindrance to Gyarados the addition of Stealth Rock has limited its ability to switch in, thanks to a nasty 25% cut in his HP. The continuing threat of Sandstorm has also given Gyarados a problem abusing Leftovers as well as using Life Orb to its fullest effect. These are some of the very few shortcomings to Gyarados as there are not many safe switch-ins. He has definitely lived up to his name of being the "Atrocious" Pokemon.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Porygon2 with a defensive EV spread and Trace is the best counter to Gyarados. Thanks to Trace, Intimidate bounces back on Gyarados, and Porygon2 can unleash either Thunderbolt or Discharge to finish him off. Starmie can revenge kill some forms of Gyarados, but it must tread lightly, as a Life Orb'd Stone Edge can nearly OHKO it if Gyarados has that Dragon Dance under his belt. Bold Cresselia with Charge Beam can block most of Gyarados's attack for a while and a combination of Thunder Wave and Reflect renders Gyarados nearly useless.</p>

<p>An Impish Tangrowth can shrug off Ice Fangs with its 125 base Defense and use a STAB Power Whip on Gyarados. Celebi's high HP and Defense lets it take on Ice Fang as well, and can hit Gyarados hard with a 120 base power Grass Knot. Recover prevents it from being worn down so it can switch-in repeatedly. Metagross with ThunderPunch stands a fair chance against Gyarados provided Gyarados isn't using Earthquake. Forretress with Zap Cannon has a risky 50% accuracy, but the automatic paralysis makes the high-risk, high-reward move a mention.</p>

<p>Water-types that carry Hidden Power Electric pose a bigger threat to Gyarados. Though they risk being 2HKO'd sometimes by a Dragon Danced Stone Edge, they can attempt to stop the sweep: Milotic, Slowbro, Suicune, and Vaporeon are perfect examples of this.</p>

<p>Skarmory has a chance to at least threaten Gyarados if it has Brave Bird. With the lack of Leftovers and the recoil from Brave Bird makes its a risky 3HKO to attempt, and Bulky Gyarados can take some of the beating. Taunt prevents Skarmory from its usual strategies of using Roost and Whirlwind to counter Gyarados. Intimidate also becomes a deadly factor to Skarmory since after Gyarados switches-in Skarmory could be forced to switch.</p>

----------
Alright so here it is I guess. If you've noticed I've added a few significant changes in this time and need to know how to organize them. Everyone's help is appreciated for this please. Thank you very much and I hope I didn't fail at re-doing this or dissapoint.

*Nervously walks away until morning*.
Click to expand...

Also, Payback should be an option over Ice Fang on the CB set. It's the strongest move against incoming Celebi, Starmie and the Rotoms while not losing too much coverage since Garchomp is now uber.
 
This is pretty good, however, I REALLY REALLY don't like how you say "step in" and "stepping into stealth rocks"

I prefer "switch" and since all other analysis use "switch" you should fix it D:
 
I think BulkyGyara should remain high in the order because if anything I think its going to become more popular now - I haven't battled much since Platinum came out but Bulky Gyara must be a pretty effective check against SD Scizor.

Considering it resists Bullet punch, Superpower & X-Scissor whilst being able to taunt rare Baton pass versions, whilst also not giving Heatran a free switch on an obvious fire move like a good deal of counters, it seems like Gyara would do pretty well.

Seems to me like countering a pokemon whose usage took it to number 8 in the usage stats in about half a month whilst denying the most used pokemon in OU a free Flash Fire boost is quite useful...
 
I was pretty sure the general consensus is that BulkyGyara blows dick as it sucks at sweeping and forces you to play a turn behind as a counter pokemon and still dies to hpe
 
Bulky Gyarados doesn't... errr... "blow dick" it's just not very good in today's metagame. Right now it's all about offense, and wasting a turn to Taunt something isn't exactly a very good use of a turn, when you could have Dragon Danced and become a threat with your 746 attack on the Offensive Gyarados.

It's like Porygon-Z. Way back when teams consisted of several pokemon under the 300 speed mark, it was pretty effective. Now with all the scarfers, priority moves and other set-up pokemon, it's dead weight. Does Porygon-Z suck? No, not really, it's just not the time for it.

If and when the metagame ever switches back to a more stallish style (like, if gamefreak stops giving the sweepers new toys, and starts making walls that don't get 2HKOed by things they should wall) then maybe pokemon like BulkyGyara and Porygon-Z will be good again.

EDIT: haha, I forgot to put my point in after that rambling! Basically, keep the Bulky set up there, just make sure it isn't top spot, like the analysis is now. The LO one is the best, atm.
 
This is looking really nice I think :3

Minor things:

a) Both tables are called 'Dragon Dance Numbers', they should be 'Dragon Dance Numbers (Adamant)' and 'Dragon Dance Numbers (Jolly)', whatever you think is best.
b) When you use 'switch in' as a verb, it has no hyphen; when you use 'switch-in' as a noun to describe what they switch in, it does have a hyphen. *nitpick*
 
I swept with Loki's changes and grabbed the suggestion of Dragon Dance numbers. I just put Neutral and Positive Nature for them as it should still outline the point.

Added everything that Loki suggested and I'll double check for any other minor errors.

Also, does anyone know a good program for grammar and spelling fixing? I'm currently using a website and it was okay with the smaller peer edits. However with this massive one it hasn't worked as you've seen some of the grammar techs go through this.

EDIT: That's free of course?
 
Alright, any final qualms to this? I'll upload this in around half an hour. The table might be a bit tricky so I might need help on this. I just copy -> paste it correct? Without the <code> of course.
 
I'd like to make a case for Bite on the DD set, or at least to be mentioned in the comments. Bite is a great way to hit Starmie, Celebi and Slowbro, and the flinch rate is nothing to snuff at either. I never really used Ice Fang that much anymore with Garchomp gone, because Stone Edge can hit Salamence and Dragonite with much success. It seems like Bite should get a mention in the set comments or maybe even a slash on the set (but a mention in the comments is sufficent). While it may seem like Other Options materal (and that's where its currently listed), it certainly is effective, espically when we start thinking about Platinum.

As for Bulky Gyarados, I agree that it isn't very useful in this speed driven metagame where hitting a certain speed is so important. Heracross isn't too common nowadays and it was mostly used for Garchomp (the speed on the old set hit 334 after a DD for this reason). It seems pretty outdated in my mind, because if I wanted to use a Bulky Gyara now, I would put EVs like that on the CB set, where I don't need to be that fast anyway as long as I did incredibly hard. It should probably be moved down a few places, as the analysis should reflect what is successful in the metagame, and it really isn't Bulky Gyara's metagame right now.
 
^^^ I disagree wholeheartedly. Bulky Gyarados is just as useful as it was now, as long as you EV it correctly. Bulky Gyarados is going to punish stall teams a little more than DD Gyarados will thanks to Taunt, and that extra bulk make killing it all the more difficult. It also doesn't lose 16% from Sandstorm like Life Orbed Gyarados.

Despite what all of you may think, Doug's usage statistics explicitly state that Bulky Gyarados IS still being used, and much more than a Choice Band or any other set other than DD Gyarados. I see a Bulky Gyarados every day that I am on the server, so I don't think it's outdated at all, especially since it destroys Scizor and Lucario, two prominent threats in the metagame.
 
Perhaps... Bulky Gyarados could forgoe Speed to have much more Attack. Like, I dunno. Drop down the Speed EVs to 28 (this outruns 306 after a DD) and pump up the attack. I'm honestly not sure what the original Bulky Gyarados was supposed to survive in the first place, so I am not sure how much attack to run.

56 Attack EVs allows for 330 attack, and 246 defense.
96 allows 341 and 236 (which ends up with equal defenses, ignoring Intimidate)
136 allows 352 and 226.
176 allows 363 and 216.
216 allows 374 and 206.

It is late and I am not sure how much damage calculations would help, but so far we've got this:

216 HP / x ATK / y DEF / 28 Spe

x + y = 266

Whoever wrote or deeply understands the original EV spread should be able to determine how much defense Gyarados actually needs. Every ~4% cut in defensive prowess results in a ~3.4% boost in offense. Where is the happy medium?

The difference in defense between the 56 attack version and the 216 attack version is 17%. However, the 216 attack version packs 12% more power. Is it worth it?
 
The original EV spread had a completely arbitrary balance of Attack and Defense, if I recall correctly 16 was just enough to get an extra point with Adamant and the rest were thrown in Defense. It had no specific use.

BulkyGyara would suck less with more attack. The reason it "sucks" is that all any good stall team needs to do is pack an Electric attack and he can't really do anything anymore unless the BulkyGyara's team has lots of Spikes, in which case the switches that he CAN force do matter more.
 
Yeh, Chris. We've kind of established that BulkyGyara probably isn't that useful anymore, when compared with the offensive Gyarados. Maybe it was always that way, but everyone just followed the format and used the first set on the Analysis. But I still feel it's viable and should be included, besides, if a stall team does lack an Electric-type attacking move for some reason, this Gyarados can still pack quite a punch as it'll be able to resist weak offense easier (allowing it to Dragon Dance more), and is able to Taunt any hopes of setting up entry hazards or status moves. I'd probably agree on a little more Attack though, or EVs in Attack and Defense that have some use / real meaning.
 
Bulky Gyarados is still good. However, it suffers from the medicority sydrome. It doesn't sweep as well as DD Gyarados, and isn't as defensive as the RestTalk Gyarados. That is why people are so quick to say it sucks... but it just... doesn't. As Havak mentioned, if you catch a stall team with no more electric move lefts (which is entirely possible through smart play), it won't have to much difficulty running them into the ground, which is something that DD Gyarados struggles to do as it will get Whirlwinded / Thunderwaved / Will-o-Wsiped / Toxic-ed all the time.

Personally the 16 Attack EVs is shit. It's a waste of 5 stat points that can be put towards moving to the next magice speed number. My bulky Gyarados spread I kept mentioning was 152 HP / 168 Def / 188 Spe- but I did run that months ago back when I made that spread for Dormin. Outspeeds Azelf, Starmie, and Raikou after a DD and has even defenses with a lefties number. It swept a fair bit, but that wasn't its primary objective.
 
OK, then I am going to run some calculations today when I finish my HW and try to determine how much attack Bulky Gyarados needs.

We could either go with Raikoulover's "speedy" build or a slower but more powerful version.


I dunno, I've had a lot of success with Bulky Gyarados, and while it needs a bit of a revamp I want it to remain on the analysis.
 
I'll look this over more carefully later, but why is Aqua Tail given as a primary option over Waterfall on the CB set? The 10 extra base power isn't really enough to make up for the loss in 10% accuracy. I'd say remove that and just mentioned Aqua Tail in set comment. I'll comment more later when I actually read the whole thing carefully.
 
Caelum, Aqua Tail isn't listed as a primary option. It's actually second. But I can re-organize this if you'd like. I still like the extra power on the Choice Band set.

I'm not sure about Bite. I can mention it in the Set Comments but until then I'd like to say it doesn't fit well (to me) on the set. Most Starmie are OHKO'd by a Dragon Dance'd Stone Edge (or Earthquake) after Stealth Rock damage. Slowbro is uncommon and as for Celebi he's hit harder by Ice Fang anyways. I understand the flinch rate helps... but probably not enough to make it a primary nor a secondary option. Feel free to prove me wrong however as I'm open to hearing opinions.

I've updated this onto the site. I can always make a case and re-edit it. I first agree that we should establish what a good EV spread is and actually agree on it. I feel that it's a very viable set and should be kept. So I'd like whoever wants to add changes and such to keep posting here. But I'm going to put one guideline down: Bulky Gyarados WILL be kept and I won't be swayed to remove it.

I'll fix the Aqua Tail tidbit right now and I'll make a mention of Bite for now. As for the rest I am going to hold off until most of us can agree. Badge users preferably but non-badged users are still entitled to agree and disagree and explain.
 
Running a few calculations with pokemon like Lucario, Heracross and stuff attacking Bulky Gyarados. So far, there appears to be no really big change between having 256 defense and 206 defense on Gyarados. He still avoids being 2HKOed by the same attacks.

I'll continue checking this out, but I am leaning towards a much more offensive "bulky gyarados"
 
Why use bulky "offensive" Gyarados when you can use offensive Gyarados? Your better off going a true bulky Gyarados or a true offensive Gyarados.
 
<p>This set also has an easier time switching into Pokemon such as Skarmory and scaring it off thanks to the combination of Intimidate and Taunt, leaving it to use Brave Bird while you freely dance. Stone Edge gives you the upper hand against waters such as Suicune and Milotic if they lack HP Electric.</p>
Click to expand...

Minor nitpick but ANY Gyarados has an easy time switching into Skarmory. Taunt Gyarados has the advantage of when Skarmory is switched in, it can Taunt the Whirlwind. You probably should rephrase this a bit.
 
I don't get what you mean. It's true that Gyarados can switch on Skarmory but usually most sets have a risk. Besides Bulky Gyarados prefers to switch into Skarmory to lower the damage output of Brave Bird. And, on top of that, Taunt. Without Taunt Gyarados shouldn't really switch on Skarmory that have a lot of health on their back. I'll look over this caelum and see how I can re-word this.
 
Well Chris, the most common complaint about "bulky gyarados" is that it takes several DDs to become a threat thanks to it's fairly low attack stat, 319. Therefore, if someone could find out how much defense you need, then you could pump up the attack a bit.

I ran a "bulky" Gyarados on Shoddy for a while that had 374 attack, and it still functioned pretty well. It hit a lot harder but also still tanked hits for me.

I don't really know where to go with this. The thing about Bulky Gyarados is that it's really tough, but it can't quite get enough Dragon Dances to start doing any damage. I mean, to put it into perspective, after one Dragon Dance the offensive Gyarados has 746 attack while the Bulky one has 478. Even if you can get two Dragon Dances safely you've got 638, which is still a lot lower. Is it really tough enough to get enough power to sweep? My guess is no; with a weakness to Stealth Rock and no Roost, it can't, really. This is why I think that it needs more attack EVs.
 
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