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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

umbarsc said:
I've seen HP Ice Ninetales. It's entirely plausible, even if it's just for Altaria.

Not to mention that Ninetales can sleep Altaria then set up Nasty Plots (it doesn't even activate Sleep Clause so it can also sleep something else)
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Yeah, I agree.

HP Ice is practically standard on Ninetales nowadays. You wouldn't see it off a basic set, unless the person CBA to get HP Ice xD.
 
umbarsc said:
Probopass walls and cripples Ninetales just as well
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I take it your mentioning these things without checking actual damage calculations or else you would know that Propobass does not wall Ninetales and is only stopping it through Paralysis from Thunder Wave.

Ninetails will almost always 2HKO Propobass with Fire Blast after a Nasty Plot unless you invest in Max HP and max Special Defence and there is still not a guaranteed chance it will survive and this is without a boosting item of any sort.

Life Orb on Ninetails means Fire Blast will always 2HKO and Flamethrower does 49% minimum, while Propobass 3hkos 6 HP/ 0 Sdef standard Ninetales with Earth Power.
 
umbarsc said:
You also have Sleep Clause, so it's not entirely prediction. By all of this logic, Ninetales has absolutely no counters at all. I'd like anyone to give me a single Ninetales counter that doesn't rely on prediction at all.
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Rest talk mantine is a decent counter unless of course ninetales now commonly carries HP electric just for mantine (it doesn't; nor does it carry HP ice for altaria).

But yes, ninetales is extremely hard to counter properly given what we have to work with. Hypno was one of its top counters though but even then you'd have to be careful of LO fire blast and dark pulse. However, it can survive 1 and twave it which is basically the end for ninetales anyway.

You just need to know its 2nd attacking move. Then it's a little easier to stop. Before that, you potentially risk losing something trying to find out. Sending in grumpig and getting dark pulsed or sending in lanturn and getting energy balled etc...
 
This whole discussion is pointless, as no one is suggesting Ninetales be moved up to BL.

I think we can all agree that "With Sleep Clause activated, Probopass can come in and cripple Ninetales with Thunder Wave and dent it a little with Earth Power/HP Rock"

Anyways back to the discussion.
 
Um, no, you were. I was just stating how Hypno's niche could be easily filled, and you expanded on the one point in my post.
 
For what its worth i'm kind of neutral on Ninetales. It is extremely powerful in UU but it does have direct counters, at least after something has taken the sleep (Altaria and Mantine) as well as taking that 25% on switchins due to Stealth Rock

It is a huge threat that should be considered during team building but it is indeed beatable, so i'm rather undecided on it's position. Right now it just seems like what i would consider a great UU special sweeper.
 
Has anyone mentioned Porygon2 yet? I'd love to have him in UU. I don't think it'd be too overpowered, but it'd definately be good.

There's plenty of things that can beat him pretty easily (hitmonlee, lanturn, gastrodon, quagsire, off the top of my head) but he'd be a fun generic wall. Trace wouldn't be too broken, without stuff like Intimidate and Flash Fire to copy, but it could stop those weather sweepers like Vileplume and Omastar from getting out of hand. Plus, it has Recover. Also, in UU, the sweepers tend to hit less hard, so fun gimmicky sets with stuff like Conversion 2 could be viable.
 
yeah good thing hitmontop, arbok, granbull, luxray, masquerain, mawile, mightyena, stantler, flareon, rapidash, or ninetales aren't in UU or else porygon-2 would be able to copy those abilities:)
 
It could Trace Flash Fire and then we'd have a decent counter for Ninetales. And without Nasty Plot, it'd probably end up being less broken than Clefable.
 
Sarcasm's a bitch, eh? Anyway, I've used P2 in OU and I think he's a bit too powerful for UU. Boltbeam from base 95 Sp.Atk plus really solid defenses and Recover. BL at least.
 
then again boltbeam isnt as godly in uu as it is in ou.

I believe porygon 2 could fit well into uu as it has pros and cons from clefable. porygon 2 would give you a good ninetails counter which we need right now.

I could even see Specs Porygon 2 in uu, as Hidden Power Ground would defeat probopass (trap him with trace magnet pull) and the Nidos.
 
He also learns T-Wave which cripples Ninetales severly. I'd just like to add how overjoyed I am that one of my personal faves, Ninetales, is getting the recognition she deserves! MUAHAHAHAHA!!!

Back to the point: P2 also makes a good Trick Roomer if you're into that kind of thing...
 
Porygon 2 + Trapinch + Clamperl could actually give UU a huge boost in Trick Room teams. Especially with all of the scarfers and fast sweepers. the problem? Priority moves run rampant in uu.

However I could see it becoming a trick roomer as well if he was moved to uu.
 
It's got 105 spAtk btw. :P

I dunno, on one hand it's got that special attack, coupled with Download and it's vast array of special moves (including Tri Attack) make it an extremely lethal Choice Spec user. On the other hand, it doesn't have Nasty Plot, Calm Mind or Hypnosis and it's speed is kinda lackluster. But then again it DOES get access to Charge Beam and recover.

lol I dunno.
 
The same can be said for SD Rhyperior in OU. Dont forget trick room would only last 2 turns for swords dance absol and armaldo:

turn 1: trick room is set up
turn 2: switch to absol/armalso
turn 3: swords dance to sweep
turn 4: attack
turn 5: attack

then you have to repeat this entire process over again. So obviously trick room from porygon2 would overpower the metagame. also dont forget his weakness is fighting which is what absol and armaldo are weak (armaldo is actually nuetral though but whatever) to so they cant really switch in.

Again porygon 2 definitely needs some uu testing as I find he would fit in.
 
skiddle said:
Has anyone mentioned Porygon2 yet? I'd love to have him in UU. I don't think it'd be too overpowered, but it'd definately be good.

There's plenty of things that can beat him pretty easily (hitmonlee, lanturn, gastrodon, quagsire, off the top of my head) but he'd be a fun generic wall. Trace wouldn't be too broken, without stuff like Intimidate and Flash Fire to copy, but it could stop those weather sweepers like Vileplume and Omastar from getting out of hand. Plus, it has Recover. Also, in UU, the sweepers tend to hit less hard, so fun gimmicky sets with stuff like Conversion 2 could be viable.
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I disagree. Hitmonlee gets cripped by status while your other recommendations get slowly killed off by toxic. Omastar and Vileplume have never gotten out of hand before (in fact I've only seen 2 before and they were both defensive versions), so why should they suddendly get out of hand now?

Porygon 2 packs bulk and power (105 special attack), meaning it's a wall that has recover and can fight back - which does set it apart from the majority of UU walls. You make a statement about UU sweepers having less power than OU sweepers - why then would you want to include something as sturdy as P2?

Even though he could make TR more viable, he does seem a bit to strdy for UU. Surprisinlgy, I'm fairly neutral on this but I'm not too fond of the stally theme that UU is heading into ATM with the additions of Steelix, Leafeon and Drapion.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I think instead of having more and more suggestions of what to bring into UU (we have quite a few now), we should really consider what to take out of it. When was the last time we moved something to BL? Pinsir? Seriously that's like the only one I remember.

We keep moving things down to deal with threats. I suggest we try getting rid of the threats first and see how it goes.
 
I don't think there's a whole lot you can do about the swift swim sweepers. There are a ton of pokemon with swift swim in UU and all of them hurt with STAB water attacks in rain (except luvdisc). I know how deadly they can be in UU but I don't know how you'd go about controlling that. It's not just 1 or 2 that are strong, they all are. Just ones like kabutops and qwilfish get used more because they have a second stab to abuse. There's no auto rain either so short of banning all of them (which is unlikely) or banning rain (again unlikely), I think they're there to stay.
 
Actually its not the physical ones I have issues with, its, the specials, particularly Omastar and Gorebyss.

Basically unless you have Golduck or Mantine (as the above usually pack HP: Grass > Electric) your're pretty much screwed and even havng one or the other is no guarantee of success.
 
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