DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[ODDish]

Along with Steelix, please.
Seriously, why add more walls that render more pokes unusable (Vespiquen and Swellow still cry about Steelix) rather as kicking out the too big of a menaces and work from there?

But Vespiquen has always been pretty poor, and Swellow had problems long before Steelix showed up, so it seems unfair to blame the big dullard for their failings.

 

[astrohawke]

All you guys have shown in the last page is that ninetales and clefable are just as bad as P2 if not worse. So I vote YES to moving them to BL.

 

[Syberia]

On second thought, Porygon2 gets Agility. A set with, say, Agility/Tri-Attack/Thunderbolt/HP Fighting with a Life Orb may very well be too broken for UU. I didn't think of that at first.

Assuming it pulls off a Download boost, nothing avoids being 2HKOed.

Modest Porygon2 @Life Orb Damage Calculations (assumes Download boost, which is not too unlikely):
Tri-Attack on 252/252 Calm Blastoise: Damage: 46.96% - 55.25%
Thunderbolt on 252/252 Calm Blastoise: Damage: 74.31% - 87.29%

Tri-Attack on 252/252 Calm Lanturn: Damage: 46.04% - 53.96%

Tri-Attack on 252/252 Careful Muk: Damage: 42.51% - 50.00%
Psychic on 252/252 Careful Muk: Damage: 63.53% - 74.88%

Tri-Attack on 252/252 Calm Meganium: Damage: 48.35% - 56.87%
Ice Beam on 252/252 Calm Meganium: Damage: 76.37% - 89.84%

HP Fighting on 252/252 Calm Probopass: Damage: 95.99% - 112.65%
Even if you don't manage the OHKO, Probopass can't do much back

HP Fighting on 252/252 Careful Bastiodon: Damage: 101.85% - 119.75%
Best it can hope for is Focus Sash + Metal Burst (as if anyone would use Bastiodon)

HP Fighting on 252/252 Careful Steelix: Damage: 75.71% - 88.98%
(Like anyone is going to use 252/252 Careful Steelix)

Thunderbolt on 252/252 Calm Lapras: Damage: 61.85% - 72.84%
This would leave Lapras with almost no offense, however, and there's always Stealth Rock.

Thunderbolt on 252/252 Calm Noctowl: Damage: 70.54% - 82.92%
OHKO with Stealth Rock

Thunderbolt on 252/252 Careful Poliwrath: Damage: 77.34% - 91.15%
No Poliwrath is this defensive, and if it is, it can't OHKO back.

Tri-Attack on 252/252 Calm Altaria: Damage: 48.02% - 56.50%
Potential 2HKO, always a 2HKO with Stealth Rock. Again, this is the most defensive Altaria possible, and if it's using this, it certainly can't do much back.

All the common Fighting-types are at least potentially OHKOed by Tri-Attack unless they invest massively in Sp. Def.

So basically, the only things I can see reliably stopping this are users of STAB Mach Punch, none of which can switch in. Even then, Hitmonchan's Mach Punch does not OHKO even with a Choice Band. Hitmontop's does even less.

It also has access to Psychic and Ice Beam if you need them, mainly for Muk/Nidoqueen/Nidoking or Meganium/Nidoking/Nidoqueen, respectively.

Obviously, I've changed my opinion. If Porygon-2 manages a Download boost, nothing can switch in without a serious risk of being 2HKOed. Belongs in BL.

Instead of bringing down numerous walls to counter what's already in UU, why don't we work on trying to establish a consensus on what threats that already exist need to be removed.

 

[kd24]

It does look extremely dangerous....

 

[Bourbon]

Wow, that is pretty fearsome. Overspecialized, perhaps, but dangerous. In all seriousness, Agility, + Download Boost + Life Orb is pretty assuming. Of course if you get +1 special attack and +2 speed, you'll do some damage.


Anyways, I strongly believe if UU can't handle Porygon2, Ninetales and Clefable should be out too.

Ninetales can 2HKO anything in UU after a Nasty Plot. If it switches in on a fire attack (hey, P2 got his boost!) it can probably OHKO most of it. There is no real "counter" to Ninetales, because all the fire resists have a good chance of being smacked down by the second attack. Or, it could forgoe Hypnosis and have three atttacks. Base 100 speed + Nasty Plot + 80 Satk is just evil.

Clefable can run a huge pile of sets with it's disgustingly huge movepool. No fighting types can switch into it, because it might be using a physical Double Edge set, or it might have Psychic, or Thunderwave. Calm Mind and Softboiled ruin all chances of special attacks denting it, and it's awesome ability makes it immune to status and Life Orb recoil.



We really shouldn't have to keep adding walls to UU. We should be removing the threats that force us to pack these walls. Oh yeah, and I think steelix was a really bad idea to add to UU. It's way too tough, it's like a physical blissey down there. Steel typing, STAB earthquake, Gyro Ball, Roar, and 4x SR resistance doesn't hurt either.

 

[Cynthia]

Ninetales is really not that dangerous. If it is the Hypnoplot set, Ninetales has only 2 attacking options. if it goes with a Fire STAB and the most common Energy Ball, it is still walled by other Fire types, Altaria, Grumpig, and Mantine. it can run different attacks to kill one or more of these threats, but not all at once.

Clefable is really debatable. If there weren't so many strong fighting types in UU it would be a terror. I wouldn't personally mind a Clefable ban, but I'm not sure it's totally unstoppable.

Steelix does have really good defense, but its typing doesn't suit it well as a physical wall, being weak to ground and fighting sucks and there are several water based sweepers as well. It is very good at stopping things like Swellow and Scyther, but frankly I think that having something to stop them is a good thing. Also ,it can be trapped and killed by Probopass(don't switch into EQ obv) with magnet rise and possibly Taunt.

 

[astrohawke]

I think the pokemon that have too few counters should go because it really makes team building that much more difficult and less diverse. I mean if you have one of those mentioned ninetales counters, a steel or rock type for swellow and possibly scyther, a fighting type for clefable and probably other things that really don't have enough counters, it really doesn't leave a lot of room to use other pokemon. And to be honest this is exactly what a lot of teams consist of these days. Steelix, usually a second physical wall to cover steelix's fight/ground/water weaknesses, a special wall that handles ninetales, one of the hitmons, then whatever left that fits the team.

 

[kd24]

The problem with Clefable, is not that it is unstoppable. No the problem is that Clefable is so versatile, ther eis no 100% counter for it. Yeah Fighting types are your best bet but look at the fighting types that can actually take out clefable:

Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Hitmontop
Toxicroak

If there are any other fighting types in UU there will most likely not ko. And don't forget clefable takes no damage from leech seed, stealth rock, spikes, poison, ect. Almost a perfect counter to all of the uu pokemon that rely on that to take an opponent out. A Simple Ice Beam/Calm Mind/Softboiled/Filler set could take out threats such as Rotom, Jumpluff, ect. quite easily. But then you also have Choice Band, Specs, Belly Drum, Cosmic Power, SleepTalk, Life Orb, Defensive Barriers, Wish Support, ect. It gives no solid way to counter Clefable.

 

[Forsety]

Everytime someone forgets Poliwrath and Primeape exists.

Another team gets swept.

 

[gengod]

The problem with Clefable, is not that it is unstoppable. No the problem is that Clefable is so versatile, ther eis no 100% counter for it.

Why should there be a 100% counter for Clefable in the first place? Just because it can run a variety of sets does not mean it is broken. Things like Infernape, Lucario and Salamence have no direct 100% counter in OU and you don't hear any push for them to be Uber.

Each and every Clefable set has a counter in UU and its simply a matter of finding out which set it has. This also applies to Ninetales who actually has a bunch of reliable counters depending on it's moveset. I'd like to reiterate what Cynthia said about it in an earlier post as an example.

Ninetales is really not that dangerous. If it is the Hypnoplot set, Ninetales has only 2 attacking options. if it goes with a Fire STAB and the most common Energy Ball, it is still walled by other Fire types, Altaria, Grumpig, and Mantine. it can run different attacks to kill one or more of these threats, but not all at once.

Just because a pokemon has no 100% counter than can come in and simply stop every set every time does not mean that the pokemon should be banned. Both Clefable and Ninetales have counters and in my opnion should just stay in UU for now.

 

[Slickee]

The problem with Clefable, is not that it is unstoppable. No the problem is that Clefable is so versatile, ther eis no 100% counter for it. Yeah Fighting types are your best bet but look at the fighting types that can actually take out clefable:

Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Hitmontop
Toxicroak

If there are any other fighting types in UU there will most likely not ko. And don't forget clefable takes no damage from leech seed, stealth rock, spikes, poison, ect. Almost a perfect counter to all of the uu pokemon that rely on that to take an opponent out. A Simple Ice Beam/Calm Mind/Softboiled/Filler set could take out threats such as Rotom, Jumpluff, ect. quite easily. But then you also have Choice Band, Specs, Belly Drum, Cosmic Power, SleepTalk, Life Orb, Defensive Barriers, Wish Support, ect. It gives no solid way to counter Clefable.

The thing about clefable is that it almost always needs setup in order to be effective. By the time you've seen it set up, a good player will take an educated guess as to what set it runs and counter it. The only one that doesn't require vigorous setup (Toxic Orb Facade, which EVERYONE seems to use nowadays) is walled by things like Steelix. It's lackluster speed doesn't help either.

Rotom and Jumpluff need good switch-ins anyway. >_<

 

[Syberia]

People forget the Toxic Orb + Facade set can still run Fire Blast. I highly recommend it.

 

[obi]

I'd rather just use Life Orb with Double-Edge. More power than Toxic Orb Facade and you boost your other attacks. No status protection, but I don't care about that as much as a lot more damage.

 

[misdreavus79]

Why should there be a 100% counter for Clefable in the first place? Just because it can run a variety of sets does not mean it is broken. Things like Infernape, Lucario and Salamence have no direct 100% counter in OU and you don't hear any push for them to be Uber.

Each and every Clefable set has a counter in UU and its simply a matter of finding out which set it has. This also applies to Ninetales who actually has a bunch of reliable counters depending on it's moveset. I'd like to reiterate what Cynthia said about it in an earlier post as an example.



Just because a pokemon has no 100% counter than can come in and simply stop every set every time does not mean that the pokemon should be banned. Both Clefable and Ninetales have counters and in my opnion should just stay in UU for now.

The difference is, IMO, Infernape, Salamence, and Lucario actually die. Clefable doesn't.

Also, isn't that the issue with Mew to an extent? He's sent to Ubers because his movepool is so huge you can never know what to expect for sure, and by the time you do, you're screwed. It's pretty much the same with Clefable. By the time you figure out it's a Life Orb and not a Choice Band, one of your guys is dead. Also, the Encore set does not require vigorous setup either. You just screw with your opponents until they die. So that's three threatening sets right off the bat. I use the Encore set in OU and it's unstoppable. I don't even want to think what kind of damage I'd be doing in UU.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Talking about all this makes me think, why on Earth is Chansey not BL yet? She was BL in GSC, because she'd dominate UU, and decrease the number of usable Pokemon there severely. The same happened in Advance. Why isn't she BL now? It seems pretty obvious she should be. If we didn't have Blissey, Chansey would probably be in the top 10 OUs.

 

[Fenikkusu]

Chansey is a NFE, so it's technically in the OU tier because of it's FE being OU.

 

[ODDish]

The thing about clefable is that it almost always needs setup in order to be effective.

Against the top tier UU perhaps, against everything else I'm less certain. ...

When we are considering whether something is overpowered or underpowered for UU are we actually considering the impact for pokemon such as Ariados, Sableye and Flareon, or are we limiting our concept of UU to the likes of Venomoth, Rotom and Ninetales?

I'm becoming increasingly worried that most of this discussion reflects the latter tendency ...

Perhaps its time for a separate thread, opening discussion as to what in UU potentially falls into the lower end of UU/NU?

 

[kd24]

Yes it is neccesary. I fully agree with you when some people say the problem with ____ is that it must stat up on everything. Clefable doesnt have to stat up on delibird, ariados, plusle, ect.

I think some people have the mindset of:

UU = Ninetails, Steelix, Persian, Manectric, Clefable, Nidos, Swellow, Scyther, Leafeon, Hitmons, Cacturne, Rotom, Omastar, Kabutops, Lanturn.

UU is not just those few pokemon. There are many more but I think people dont realize how many other pokemon there are to use in uu sometimes or who they are.

We need a "where does uu end, and nu start" discussion so we can stop this.

 

[astrohawke]

I agree. It wouldn't be hard to get the lower part of the shoddy usage list and use that as a starting point for moving stuff up and down. I've looked at the list and everything up to octillery pretty much includes pokemon I never see in UU. Anything above that, and we start getting pokemon like grumpig. I think its a good starting point. There are some exceptions of course like phione being in the NU list and kecleon not being in it but those are the ones that are likely to be moved straight away once the initial list is developed.

I'd start the thread but seeing as the last few have been locked, I want approval from the mods first.

 

[Adamant_Torterra]

Assuming it pulls off a Download boost, nothing avoids being 2HKOed.

Tri-Attack on 252/252 Calm Lanturn: Damage: 46.04% - 53.96%

What? With leftovers Lanturn is rarely if ever 2HKOed, and can switch into TB to heal. And that's with a download boost which cuts the possible switch-ins in half. Lanturn is not that uncommon is it? Also, some of the others would definitely outspeed without agility. We are talking about a pokemon that uses Trick Room, it isn't that fast. Some scarfers could probably outspeed it. Not to mention, 2HKOs only matter if you hit it on the switch-in, which you won't if you use agility, and outspeed, which you won't if you don't use agility. Sure it has tankish stats, but Laturn gets two hits and anything faster that isn't OHKO'ed gets one. Not exactly invincible.

Edit: Laturn does 27.97% - 33.12% to that P2, which on average, will kill P2 as it kills Lanturn thanks to LO recoil. On the off chance that it doesn't die, it hits one more Pokemon for 50-70% damage suicidally, giving the switchin after Lanturn a turn of setup.

 

[rkatzam]

Lanturn can't threaten a OHKO or even a 2HKO as well..

 

[Adamant_Torterra]

Lanturn can't threaten a OHKO or even a 2HKO as well..

It doesn't matter, read the edit. Also, 0/0 Poliwrath only takes 82.87% - 97.20% from P2 and OHKOs back with UNBOOSTED cross chop, Band BB, etc. again, either Pory boosts on the switch or hits on the switch, but it can't do both, so it dies.

 

[kd24]

Except that Cross Chop might miss, and Porygon 2 could potentially thunderbolt on the poliwrath switch in instead of agility.

 

[ODDish]

It doesn't matter, read the edit. Also, 0/0 Poliwrath only takes 82.87% - 97.20% from P2 and OHKOs back with UNBOOSTED cross chop, Band BB, etc. again, either Pory boosts on the switch or hits on the switch, but it can't do both, so it dies.

But again, what would be the implications of Porygon2 for the significant portion of UU pokemon that aren't as formidable as Poliwrath and Lanturn ...

 

[Bologo]

It doesn't matter, read the edit. Also, 0/0 Poliwrath only takes 82.87% - 97.20% from P2 and OHKOs back with UNBOOSTED cross chop, Band BB, etc. again, either Pory boosts on the switch or hits on the switch, but it can't do both, so it dies.

That's great. It'd be even more great if Poliwrath actually learned Cross Chop.