Do you have an alternative method you have purposed (if it has been mentioned in this thread, I apologize and could you link me to it)?
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Do you have an alternative method you have purposed (if it has been mentioned in this thread, I apologize and could you link me to it)?
Ok guys, that Aerodactyl thing was not my opinion it is the way the system works. if a Pokemon is OU, it's out of UU, plain and simple. Aerodactyl is now OU, so using it in UU anymore is out of the question. That's how the tiers are made, and that's what will be happening there.
If there is a consensus on Weezing, Shedinja, Articuno, and Miltank I propose that they all stay, if anyone has an objections now would be a good time to say so. This leaves only Venasaur as possibly going back to BL, so that would be the best topic to discuss.
For those going on about the BL/UU ladder combination, that will likely not be happening until Grachomp,Deoxys-E, and other questionable Pokemon for the Standard ladder are resolved. Our focus right now should be perhaps trying a few more BL to move down, or perhaps some UU's to go up.
If there is a consensus on Weezing, Shedinja, Articuno, and Miltank I propose that they all stay, if anyone has an objections now would be a good time to say so. This leaves only Venasaur as possibly going back to BL, so that would be the best topic to discuss.
For those going on about the BL/UU ladder combination, that will likely not be happening until Grachomp,Deoxys-E, and other questionable Pokemon for the Standard ladder are resolved. Our focus right now should be perhaps trying a few more BL to move down, or perhaps some UU's to go up.
Ok, on the whole Venusaur thing I agree that it should stay UU as there are many counters to it and one of those being Articuno as it can just Light Screen and not have to worry about Leaf Storm, the only real worry it has to worry about is Venusars' Sleep Powder but I guess that's why they made the move Taunt.
People keep bringing up Venusaur's many counters, but I've yet to see a list... Those that can hit it hard can be crippled by Powders or hit back by base 100 Sp. Atk. and those that can take it's attacks are easily put to sleep or Leech Seeded and Venusaur switches out. Not to mention the sweeping potential of Scarf Venusaur, or even just a LO version with Synthesis. Swords Dance is also usable as well. This guy is just too much.
There wasn't consensus about them being moved down in the first place, and they were, so I'm wondering whether its really worth objecting ...
I agree with ODDish. I also felt very miffed that all these pokemon were just sudden dropped in from the blue.
I for one think Milktank has been a very problematic pokemon to deal with. While few play it (why I can't figure), the few times I have faced it the pokemon has been a lot more problematic than even Clefable, who really has no offensive that is truly threatening (lol at ever common facade/meteor mash in a metagame with Steelix and Aggron). Milktank on the other hand, has terrific coverage in its offensive moves, 2 great abilities that cause some major problematic guessing games with Rotom and sweepers like Glaceon and Ninetales, plus the speed and attack to hammer on its fellow "bulky" pokemon. SR, thunderwave, milk drink, heal bell can really screw over a lot of strategies.
Articuno is also a major nuisance. While many people are too scared to use it because of that "SR weak," those who have used it will see that SR is relatively easy to keep off the field with the likes of Claydol (#1 useage baby!) and Hitmontop, and Roost causes major issues. All I can say is 580 total base is a bitch in UU no matter what shape or form.
Weezing and Shedinja . . . ok, really can't say anything about them. Neither has posed any real problems for me (I haven't even seen a shedinja!)
I for one think Milktank has been a very problematic pokemon to deal with. While few play it (why I can't figure), the few times I have faced it the pokemon has been a lot more problematic than even Clefable, who really has no offensive that is truly threatening (lol at ever common facade/meteor mash in a metagame with Steelix and Aggron). Milktank on the other hand, has terrific coverage in its offensive moves, 2 great abilities that cause some major problematic guessing games with Rotom and sweepers like Glaceon and Ninetales, plus the speed and attack to hammer on its fellow "bulky" pokemon. SR, thunderwave, milk drink, heal bell can really screw over a lot of strategies.
Articuno is also a major nuisance. While many people are too scared to use it because of that "SR weak," those who have used it will see that SR is relatively easy to keep off the field with the likes of Claydol (#1 useage baby!) and Hitmontop, and Roost causes major issues. All I can say is 580 total base is a bitch in UU no matter what shape or form.
Weezing and Shedinja . . . ok, really can't say anything about them. Neither has posed any real problems for me (I haven't even seen a shedinja!)
I know I'll be quite happy but also quite sad to see Aerodactyl go. I liked how it helped to tone down Ninetales, which imo is still one of the hardest pokemon to deal with whenever I build a team. But yeah, it should be moved back to OU immediately now that the usage list has been posted. Venusaur was more troublesome to face than Aero due to its unpredictability (Scarf, Specs, bulky set and whatnot).
The OU list is updated at the beginning of next month. We could remove it now with foresight, but technically the proper thing to do is keep it UU until it becomes OU officially.
One counter to Venusaur I can think of is Countersash Cacturne, while you choose HP Ice to knock it out it just survives with FS and KOs you with Counter. Another Pokemon that I have trouble with is the Kangaskhan set with Substitute, Body Slam, Sucker Punch, ??? and the ability Scrappy, it can even I think survive Venusaurs' Leaf Storm or just set up Substitute since it's faster and just waste time while your Special Attack is dropped.
Shelcario, your flawed and meaningless theorymon is really starting to irritate me. There are three flaws in this post alone: Hidden Power is a special attack and cannot be countered, plus you are switching in and have to take an attack first; Body Slam + Scrappy is illegal on Kangaskhan, although Shoddy probably accepts it; after Leaf Storm you won't be able to Sub more than once at most. I ask you in the nicest way possible to either make more constructive posts or none at all. Thank You.
It's okay, and don't let me discourage you from making more posts, just make sure your arguments can be justified or backed up from experience.
Generally speaking anything that has a Flying Typing has a good chance against Venasuar as it cuts his reliable stab off.. to an extent and "forces" him to use his less reliable stab Poison. Examples would be Alteria, Ledian, and Drifblim.
Also you have poison types who resist both Stabs and generally they have some bulk. Not to mention they can push out decent Nuetral hits against him. Examples would be Muk, Swalot, Beedrill, and Venomoth.
Finally Steel Types. Unfourtunally Mawhile is our only mono Steel type but she does resist Grass and takes no damage from Poison.
I was actually the one who proposed the move down.. and about a hour later they where moved. I think it was just coincidence though.
Also you have poison types who resist both Stabs and generally they have some bulk. Not to mention they can push out decent Nuetral hits against him. Examples would be Muk, Swalot, Beedrill, and Venomoth.
Finally Steel Types. Unfourtunally Mawhile is our only mono Steel type but she does resist Grass and takes no damage from Poison.
I was actually the one who proposed the move down.. and about a hour later they where moved. I think it was just coincidence though.
Ok, but none of those guys can do jack if they get put to sleep or face a substitute on the switch in. Not to mention super effective hidden powers (including hidden power psychic) are always a possibility.
Well unless someone suggests a new set for Venusaur that includes HP Psychic in its' moves then come tell me, otherwise I don't think they'll run it and Taunt would just shut it down, now if only I can find a bulky Taunt user, and who's fast:)
EDIT: Oh yeah, Electrode with a Focus Sash, that could shut it down:)
EDIT: Oh yeah, Electrode with a Focus Sash, that could shut it down:)
Hey Maniac, since Aero is OU now on both ladders, can it FINALLY be removed from UU?
There are 3 common Venasuar sets. Scarf, Specs, and SubSeed. Pending on what it leads off with allows you to assess guesstimate the set and move from there. I really dislike it when people assume to much from a poke'. I give it far to mch credit than it is capable of. This is only a Example: Garchomp always seems to be carrying Yache/ Scarf/ SD/ Fire Fang/Blast when you make a arguement against it. Atleast that is how I few it and it really seems to make the situation worse than what it is.
However, this is infact about Vena so here is a hypathetical situation.. for the sake of arguement Blue led with Electrode and KO'd Red's Ninetails right off the bat. Blue send in Blastoise and Red sends in Golem and here we go..
Red sends out Venasaur.
Blastoise uses Surf...
Venasuar lost 10% HP.
Blastoise's Leftovers restored some HP.
[End of Turn]
Just from here you can easily assess the situation. No lefties tell's you there is a very High Chance that it is Scarf/ Specs.
Blue sends out Swalot.
Venasaur uses Energy Ball.
Swalot lost 20% Hp.
Swalot's Black Sludge restored some HP.
[End of turn]
Venasuar led off with Energy Ball so that should tell you that, 1) It is most likely not Scarfed since it did not lead off with Sleep Powder and 2) Damage to Vileplume was rather high so your best guess is Specs.
If that is the case Venasaur is more than likely carrying Hidden Power whish would be Hp Hp Ice or Hp Fire. Since Smogon anaylisis says he should have Hp Ice then that would be your best assumption.
This "logic" can be used for other pokes as well.
Wormadam-S is the better option if you want to counter Venusaur with a Steel type, with better defenses and 4x Grass resist alongside Poison immunity and Psychic resistance. Also has access to Psychic which is a semi-reliable option for wearing it down. Loses to HP Fire variants but then again so does Mawile.
HP Psychic is very much a viable option on Choiced variants especially. I dealt with Venusaur using Drifblim and Taunt/Psychic/Thunder Wave/Wish Hypno, which you might call overcentralizing but was actually a useful set for other threats such as Golduck and Jumpluff that my team needed an answer to. I could often exploit Choiced Venusaurs with my Drifblim to set up Unburden and SubPetaya that I could pass to something else.
Anyway, I think it is clear that Venusaur is at the very least not completely unbalancing in UU, so instead of moving it back up I reckon we should give some more BL Pokemon a run in UU. I think there are some strong threats that would now not be such an issue in this bulkier metagame and may actually help relieve the overemphasis on stall we have right now, as well as Venusaur. Believe it or not, I wouldn't mind giving Pinsir another go in UU now, despite the fact that I was strongly against it in the past, but times have changed.
I have rarely seen a SubSeed Venusaur; most Venusaurs seem to be the standard Sleep Powder / Leech Seed / Energy Ball / Sludge Bomb.
Also, why has nobody mentioned Clefable as a counter to Venusaur? Clefable pretty much kills it, though it is a bit iffy on switching in on Specs Leaf Storm.
Also, why has nobody mentioned Clefable as a counter to Venusaur? Clefable pretty much kills it, though it is a bit iffy on switching in on Specs Leaf Storm.
@Exclamation Point-- There was a discussion about HP Psychic Venusaur a while back, which is why I brought it up again. The thread is huge so I don't expect you to know that, but let's face it-- the best UU players are not following the analysis very closely on their own sets.
While I myself have run into only a handful of choice Venus, for the bulky sets, there is no way in hell venu would be using Energy Ball right off the bat in your hypothetical situation.
Venu can lol the majority of Ice Beams from bulky water types, which it also often outspeeds (blastoise here). In which case, it will be using Substitute or Sleep Powder to take advantage of the switch. From there it will leech seed/status the enemy switch in or just attack with its best available move as the sub breaks and it gets more health back from lefties/seed. The only pokemon who can stop this type of play is a fast encore user, who will be getting smacked by attacks on the switch in if it tries to "counter" venusaur too often.
The point is that Venusaur can wall a lot of common pokemon, and each time it comes in it has a very good chance to secure some kind of advantage, even against its "counters." (ie, venusaur subs, swalot comes in, venu *does something to it*, swalot breaks sub, venu switches to Steelix and lols). So, if you have ANY pokemon on your team countered by venusaur, unless you don't use that pokemon the whole match or you can predict and double-switch each time Venu comes in, it will be giving you trouble.
edit: edited to fix stupid comment about leech seeding swalot.
While I myself have run into only a handful of choice Venus, for the bulky sets, there is no way in hell venu would be using Energy Ball right off the bat in your hypothetical situation.
Venu can lol the majority of Ice Beams from bulky water types, which it also often outspeeds (blastoise here). In which case, it will be using Substitute or Sleep Powder to take advantage of the switch. From there it will leech seed/status the enemy switch in or just attack with its best available move as the sub breaks and it gets more health back from lefties/seed. The only pokemon who can stop this type of play is a fast encore user, who will be getting smacked by attacks on the switch in if it tries to "counter" venusaur too often.
The point is that Venusaur can wall a lot of common pokemon, and each time it comes in it has a very good chance to secure some kind of advantage, even against its "counters." (ie, venusaur subs, swalot comes in, venu *does something to it*, swalot breaks sub, venu switches to Steelix and lols). So, if you have ANY pokemon on your team countered by venusaur, unless you don't use that pokemon the whole match or you can predict and double-switch each time Venu comes in, it will be giving you trouble.
edit: edited to fix stupid comment about leech seeding swalot.
Venusaur would most certainly NOT Leech Seed a Swalot.
Ah, forgot about Swalot's Liquid Ooze (probably because I've never seen a swalot in battle), but ok Venusaur attacks Swalot (for lol damage sure, but damage the same, while it heals back up with leftovers) or Sleep Powders it before switching out. Heck, it could even just Synthesis its health back behind the sub, and be ready to go again. Sure it can have only 4 moves, but within those 4 moves is likely something that even its "counters" is not going to like.
The point is that Venu is good at securing advantage, even with "counters" on the opposing team.
The point is that Venu is good at securing advantage, even with "counters" on the opposing team.