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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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indeed, but it is quite possible something may hav been overlooked that may want testing. also, every version of the list is see is different
i would like a difining one.
i would like a difining one.
By our tradition, the most recent version of the list is default the 'correct' one.
Here you have it:
Move up:
UU's to be tested [to be moved up].
-Walrein, Glaceon, Pinsir, Cacturne, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee
Clefable
Move down:
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested [to be moved down].
-Steelix (Very low)
-Drapion (Low)
-Regigigas (Low)
-Leafeon (Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)
BL's considered for testing/movedown but lacking support [can be reworded to just have (very high) opposition].
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon
If it were in my hands, anything with high or above opposition is not worth the time to test since it will probably be discounted quickly. They're worth maybe a single test, not exhaustive testing.
And as for the best method to test:
-For moving down: make a team of 5 "accepted" UU's and one current BL to test for movedown. This assures a semblance of a control. Be sure to agree to this beforehand or your opponent will think you're just an asshole for having Torterra, etc. It will be immediately obvious if the BL is uncounterable. Post logs of you 6-0ing them.
-For moving up: make a team of 5 "accepted" UU's and the candidate for move-up and try your best to use it whenever possible and in different circumstances. Note what the common counters and abuses are and keep logs, post them here.
Here you have it:
Move up:
UU's to be tested [to be moved up].
-Walrein, Glaceon, Pinsir, Cacturne, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee
Clefable
Move down:
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested [to be moved down].
-Steelix (Very low)
-Drapion (Low)
-Regigigas (Low)
-Leafeon (Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)
BL's considered for testing/movedown but lacking support [can be reworded to just have (very high) opposition].
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon
If it were in my hands, anything with high or above opposition is not worth the time to test since it will probably be discounted quickly. They're worth maybe a single test, not exhaustive testing.
And as for the best method to test:
-For moving down: make a team of 5 "accepted" UU's and one current BL to test for movedown. This assures a semblance of a control. Be sure to agree to this beforehand or your opponent will think you're just an asshole for having Torterra, etc. It will be immediately obvious if the BL is uncounterable. Post logs of you 6-0ing them.
-For moving up: make a team of 5 "accepted" UU's and the candidate for move-up and try your best to use it whenever possible and in different circumstances. Note what the common counters and abuses are and keep logs, post them here.
The last update
Current discussion
Entei
Banished to BL. (bye bye)
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom
UU's to be tested.
-Walrein, Glaceon, Pinsir, Cacturne, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee
Clefable
BL's moved down to UU.
- Claydol and Cloyster
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Steelix (Very low)
-Drapion (Low)
-Regigigas (Low)
-Leafeon (Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)
BL's considered for testing/movedown but lacking support.
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon
Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther, Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu
Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover, Hippopatas
-----------------
Jumpluff seems like it is missing from the list. I could have sworn that we banned it to BL before...
Current discussion
Entei
Banished to BL. (bye bye)
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom
UU's to be tested.
-Walrein, Glaceon, Pinsir, Cacturne, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee
Clefable
BL's moved down to UU.
- Claydol and Cloyster
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Steelix (Very low)
-Drapion (Low)
-Regigigas (Low)
-Leafeon (Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)
BL's considered for testing/movedown but lacking support.
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon
Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther, Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu
Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover, Hippopatas
-----------------
Jumpluff seems like it is missing from the list. I could have sworn that we banned it to BL before...
Hmm...
Jynx has a defense and Sp. Def tier lower than Ledian. Its speed is among the top for UU, but is still beaten out by Ninetails, Rapidash, which pretty much defines a few counters... especially Rapidash with Megahorn and Flare Blitz.
Its Sp. Attack is nice, and it has a good array of attacks that go with it. It is certainly a glass cannon, but initial looks make me think that we really do need one or two high-attack Sp. Attackers in UU. Glaceon and Omastar pretty much sum up the high-Sp. Attack pokemon in UU.
I'm pretty neutral on it... and the Luna set seems like it can be taken up by other quick-status pokemon like Ninetails and Persian anyway (who are faster and have access to Nasty Plot). Hell, Ninetales has even better defenses than Jynx. Its worth testing out, Jynx certainly has the movepool advantage, but its stats are horrific.
I can see it like a PorygonZ of UU. It has good speed, but not enough to sweep, and it can be taken out by pretty much any pokemon that is faster than it.
Jynx has a defense and Sp. Def tier lower than Ledian. Its speed is among the top for UU, but is still beaten out by Ninetails, Rapidash, which pretty much defines a few counters... especially Rapidash with Megahorn and Flare Blitz.
Its Sp. Attack is nice, and it has a good array of attacks that go with it. It is certainly a glass cannon, but initial looks make me think that we really do need one or two high-attack Sp. Attackers in UU. Glaceon and Omastar pretty much sum up the high-Sp. Attack pokemon in UU.
I'm pretty neutral on it... and the Luna set seems like it can be taken up by other quick-status pokemon like Ninetails and Persian anyway (who are faster and have access to Nasty Plot). Hell, Ninetales has even better defenses than Jynx. Its worth testing out, Jynx certainly has the movepool advantage, but its stats are horrific.
I can see it like a PorygonZ of UU. It has good speed, but not enough to sweep, and it can be taken out by pretty much any pokemon that is faster than it.
Alright, talking specifically about the Luna set:
Ramifications of having only one attack:
-Ice Beam is resisted 8x by Walrein. He's the best counter ever made regarding Luna. He can come in and win by attrition since she can hardly hurt him even after 6 CMs, all the while he is pounding away or using Roar. Dewgong with Thick Fat or without can do a similar job only not as well. With Hydration Resting it doesn't care too much about any sleeps and will probably also win by attrition.
-Kecleon laughs all over the place after the first Beam and having high SpDef as well as Sucker Punch.
-Gastrodon can go toe-to-toe with Recover and Stockpile then hitting her with his physical attacks.
-Lanturn can wall her temporarily, a common STalk version will hurt her badly.
-Poliwrath forces her to carry Psychic or get Waterfalled to death since his 90/90 special defenses and resisting Ice Beam means he can sleep the whole duration and still win the fight.
Ramifications of relying on sleep:
-Physical STalkers as a whole ruin her shit. There are not too many that can do this job well (Muk comes to mind) but they will work.
-Hypno with Insomnia can come in on sleep, psych up more often than not, and win the attrition war.
-Clefable with Toxic from Toxic Orb can come in on her sleeps, SToss or Facade her to death, and have the SpDef to survive a few Ice Beams. Only works if Toxic works, though.
-Banette with Insomnia can come in on one Sleep and possibly one Ice Beam and OHKO. Tenative counter though and won't work all the time. Ariados can do the same with Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak.
-A Lum Berry on most of the above-mentioned counters will work but only once. I don't suggest it too highly, item slots are valuable.
-Since the sleep is not 100% accurate, any "free switch" on a missed sleep can spell doom for Luna. Or in other words, she has an efficacy rate with a giant ACCURACY OF SLEEP fraction thrown in front of it.
Ramifications of relying on Calm Mind/Sub:
-Psych Up works wonders as does a faster Encore. The first is rare but comes on Hypno and Grumpig, two of her biggest counters. Encore stops her in her tracks if she's not attacking and is carried by Clefable.
-Phazing can also work but that implies you come in and don't get put to sleep or 2HKO'd by Ice Beam. Not many can say that.
Her counters are pretty straightforward for the Luna set and are bolded accordingly.
The biggest problem that I didn't address is if she happens to run a Choice Set or worst of all, a LO Set with sleep. While a few of the counters a great at stopping Luna, not all of them can contend with CS STAB Psychics flying out or CS Grass Knots.
And if she is a Perish-trapping variety, a lot of the same counters get screwed.
I would say that the overall best switch-in to her would have to be, in general terms, a physically-attacking, special defense heavy (ice resister) with ReSTalk and two attacks. This insures that you don't lose to sleep, you can counter whatever move she does, you kill her before she can Perish-trap you, and you can do it repeatedly in a match if needed.
So there's my opinion, SO. =P
Ramifications of having only one attack:
-Ice Beam is resisted 8x by Walrein. He's the best counter ever made regarding Luna. He can come in and win by attrition since she can hardly hurt him even after 6 CMs, all the while he is pounding away or using Roar. Dewgong with Thick Fat or without can do a similar job only not as well. With Hydration Resting it doesn't care too much about any sleeps and will probably also win by attrition.
-Kecleon laughs all over the place after the first Beam and having high SpDef as well as Sucker Punch.
-Gastrodon can go toe-to-toe with Recover and Stockpile then hitting her with his physical attacks.
-Lanturn can wall her temporarily, a common STalk version will hurt her badly.
-Poliwrath forces her to carry Psychic or get Waterfalled to death since his 90/90 special defenses and resisting Ice Beam means he can sleep the whole duration and still win the fight.
Ramifications of relying on sleep:
-Physical STalkers as a whole ruin her shit. There are not too many that can do this job well (Muk comes to mind) but they will work.
-Hypno with Insomnia can come in on sleep, psych up more often than not, and win the attrition war.
-Clefable with Toxic from Toxic Orb can come in on her sleeps, SToss or Facade her to death, and have the SpDef to survive a few Ice Beams. Only works if Toxic works, though.
-Banette with Insomnia can come in on one Sleep and possibly one Ice Beam and OHKO. Tenative counter though and won't work all the time. Ariados can do the same with Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak.
-A Lum Berry on most of the above-mentioned counters will work but only once. I don't suggest it too highly, item slots are valuable.
-Since the sleep is not 100% accurate, any "free switch" on a missed sleep can spell doom for Luna. Or in other words, she has an efficacy rate with a giant ACCURACY OF SLEEP fraction thrown in front of it.
Ramifications of relying on Calm Mind/Sub:
-Psych Up works wonders as does a faster Encore. The first is rare but comes on Hypno and Grumpig, two of her biggest counters. Encore stops her in her tracks if she's not attacking and is carried by Clefable.
-Phazing can also work but that implies you come in and don't get put to sleep or 2HKO'd by Ice Beam. Not many can say that.
Her counters are pretty straightforward for the Luna set and are bolded accordingly.
The biggest problem that I didn't address is if she happens to run a Choice Set or worst of all, a LO Set with sleep. While a few of the counters a great at stopping Luna, not all of them can contend with CS STAB Psychics flying out or CS Grass Knots.
And if she is a Perish-trapping variety, a lot of the same counters get screwed.
I would say that the overall best switch-in to her would have to be, in general terms, a physically-attacking, special defense heavy (ice resister) with ReSTalk and two attacks. This insures that you don't lose to sleep, you can counter whatever move she does, you kill her before she can Perish-trap you, and you can do it repeatedly in a match if needed.
So there's my opinion, SO. =P
For the record, Thick Fat Grumpig will resist 3 of Choice Jynx's attacks, and can only score a neutral Grass Knot on it. Of course, Focus Blast could be substituted for something like Shadow Ball, but then it's walled even better by Probopass. Choice Jynx can still do a lot of damage, but it would require lots of prediction for success since it's so fragile.
Fake Out Persian/Purugly absolutely walks all over Jynx, assuming it doesn't have to switch in. This is very interesting and I think Jynx deserves some testing.
Fake Out Persian/Purugly absolutely walks all over Jynx, assuming it doesn't have to switch in. This is very interesting and I think Jynx deserves some testing.
Pneuma, you forgot Lapras as far as 4x Ice resists are concerned, and she also happens to have massive HP/Special Defense. Still, all the reasons you outlined make it abundantly clear that Jynx cannot get away with running the Luna set anymore. There are also a couple of other new things that D/P has brought that nerf Jynx, such as:
Stealth Rock weakness. Coupled with its bad HP and Defense, even with its great Special Defense it will struggle to get many switch-in opportunities when it risks losing 25% before even taking a hit.
Pursuit weakness. Now that Pursuit is physical it is a viable option on many UU Pokemon, and Jynx's defense is so awful that most don't require need STAB to OHKO even if she stays in. Also, if you look at the list of UU Pokemon the number that are faster with decent attack that learn Pursuit is surprisingly big, most notably Scyther, Swellow, Dodrio, Raticate and Linoone. There are also a lot more slower Pursuit users like Banette and Toxicroak who in addition learn Sucker Punch, thus putting Jynx in a dilemma. This would make Jynx one of the easiest Pokemon to revenge kill at the very least.
Stealth Rock weakness. Coupled with its bad HP and Defense, even with its great Special Defense it will struggle to get many switch-in opportunities when it risks losing 25% before even taking a hit.
Pursuit weakness. Now that Pursuit is physical it is a viable option on many UU Pokemon, and Jynx's defense is so awful that most don't require need STAB to OHKO even if she stays in. Also, if you look at the list of UU Pokemon the number that are faster with decent attack that learn Pursuit is surprisingly big, most notably Scyther, Swellow, Dodrio, Raticate and Linoone. There are also a lot more slower Pursuit users like Banette and Toxicroak who in addition learn Sucker Punch, thus putting Jynx in a dilemma. This would make Jynx one of the easiest Pokemon to revenge kill at the very least.
i managed to com in on jynx a little earlier and pursuit it with dodrio, another UU i think needs tested.
@Pneuma
Restalk in UU? Thats a pretty bold thing to do...it just doesn't work as well as OU since you just don't have defensive titans like Milotic, Cresselia here. Wheras UU can still easily pack sweepers comparable to most OU sweepers. Also I'm pretty sure Banette gets completely mauled by Jynx on a switch in.
Restalk in UU? Thats a pretty bold thing to do...it just doesn't work as well as OU since you just don't have defensive titans like Milotic, Cresselia here. Wheras UU can still easily pack sweepers comparable to most OU sweepers. Also I'm pretty sure Banette gets completely mauled by Jynx on a switch in.
Dodrio, while having more attack than Swellow, lacks Guts and will pretty much function as a better Fearow/less suicidal Swellow.
IMO, Fearow will have no place in any metagame, if Dodrio comes to UU. Dodrio does everything Fearow does better than it, and has a couple of extra tricks.
BTW, I completely overlooked Sucker Punch and Pursuit when I made my Jynx argument. You're right, it deserves testing. But Trap+Sleep+Fake Tears isn't that easy to deal with, and will cause a lot of pain.
BTW, since when is Psych Up standard on Hypno in UU? Last time I checked, the standard was TWave/SToss/Wish/Reflect.
Erm Dodrio's been listed as UU on the tier list since it went up ... its sees about as much use as Fearow though, at least on Shoddy, at the moment the suicidal swallow is the most popular normal flying type, then its probably Noctowl (yay!).
It's not ... but Hypno useage is way down on what it was, and when you do come across Hypno there is increased variety as regards set, Nasty Plot is becoming more popular, and a Switcheroo set completely threw me a couple of days ago.
From my experience Hypno isn't actually near as effective in D/P as it used to be. The physical/special splits, generally stronger and more varied attacks. Means it just no longer does its old special tank psuedo support role very well instead inviting setups and switchins.
Nasty Plot/Trick Room sweeper seem to be the new favourite along with Switcheroo + Disable since even if you switch in they tend to mess around with you.
Nasty Plot/Trick Room sweeper seem to be the new favourite along with Switcheroo + Disable since even if you switch in they tend to mess around with you.
No offense but anything that needs to be sashed and also needs rapid spin support at the same time isn't much of a counter. The earlier ones were far more sound since even if Jynx was Specs it'd still probably wouldn't come near to a 2hko.
is zangoose still classed as BL? if so i'd like to sgtart a case for moving it down, as i think we have much stronger pokemon in UU now then the mongoose in question.
^ Along the same lines as Rotom, but without the Shadow Claw weakness, is the oft-forgotten Sableye. Shadow Claw is really the best Zangoose can hit it with, and Sableye can burn or otherwise cripple Zangoose. Granted, Zangoose is still a huge threat in UU with its access to Swords Dance and its decent speed, but maybe some testing will help clear this up.
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