DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[stvn]

Sorry to interrupt your current discussion, but I would like to discuss more about another thing: Steelix.
I've been playing UU a lot, and I think I'm quite familiar with the enviroment now. So let's begin

Move down to UU
- Steelix, Drapion, Leafeon, Jynx, Regigigas

after seeing that on page 66, I really want to see how well could Steelix do in UU.
Since we have a lot of offensive threats and some are very difficult do counter (I'm looking at you Pinsir) Steelix could balance more.

The weak to Fight is what really hinder its ability to tank too much with things like the Hitmons, Primeape and Pinsir running all over UU. Waters and Grasses that are everywhere can counter It easily too (Lapras, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Vileplume, Meganium [with HP Fire - and I must say that HP Fire Meganium is awesome], Politoed, Poliwhrath... Yeah, I think that's enough)

Also, Steelix plays totally different from Aggron - It's a wall that has little offense to offer, while Aggron is the kind of poke who takes a hit and dish them back.
That said, you really don't have to kill it right away, even with it having plenty of counters. It's like Bronzong: takes a lot of hits but since it doesn't have a recovery move, It'll go down sometime.

So, what do you guys think ?

 

[Forsety]

Sorry to interrupt your current discussion, but I would like to discuss more about another thing: Steelix.
I've been playing UU a lot, and I think I'm quite familiar with the enviroment now. So let's begin after seeing that on page 66, I really want to see how well could Steelix do in UU.

Well at the last check, Steelix and Drapion are the highest uncontested candidates for a move down. In short, you could probably get away with using it in UU.

 

[obi]

That is how I interpret Obi's idea. We need to stop crafting DP UU and DP NU to be roughly the same as their Advance counterparts.

That is exactly what I'm saying.

I am not really saying "get rid of BL altogether". It is a necessary tier for balance issues (although it may turn out that there are 0 Pokemon in the tier, although I doubt it). I'm saying start out with the tier empty (so all BLs would be considered UU), and then slowly add Pokemon to it if they turn out to be unbalancing.

However, I ask how necessary that truly is? Dragontamer mentioned that the completely subjective and probably extremely arbitrary variables of "fun" and "community" should be influential in online Pokemon, and I don't see a more perfect place for this than the UU metagame.

I had never really thought about this explicitly. However, one of my main reasons for doing this essentially has "fun" as its ultimate goal. My main complaint with NU is that it's uninspiring Pokemon as the best you can do. If BL gets smaller (and thus UU gets larger), we have a larger pool of UU Pokemon to draw from when crafting NU, and thus NU might not suck this generation.

I have to say that I'd think that the BL pokemon would be more likely to create an OU-lite environment than their NFE counterparts, ie Blaziken -> Infernape, Gyarados - > DD feraligatr, I'm sure I'm missing other BL pokes that fill similar jobs but are just outclassed by an OU pokemon. So I'm not really sure why it seems that Colin has decided that NFEs are going to be disallowed save for a few while we've still got the UU-NFE thread going on.

I don't really have a response to this, so I'm just quoting it so it doesn't get lost. I do believe that one of the goals of UU is to be "not OU", so that is an important consideration. Now, for BLs this will never be as bad for non-distinct NFEs, because there isn't a single fully evolved Pokemon that is strictly inferior to another fully evolve Pokemon, except Unown vs. other levitating Psychics (Azelf, for instance). Blaziken has the advantage of higher offenses and Baton Pass, for instance. Feraligatr can Substitute down to activate Torrent, and isn't weak to SR. We just have to ask if these differences are enough.

shorthand - , BL pokemon are more likely to create OU-lite than NFEs, so NFEs should be allowed since the majority wouldn't be used, but they might as well be available for the ones that want to use them.

Rarity is never a substitute for balance. If a Pokemon is never used, then banning and not banning are identical (meaning you have no argument). If a Pokemon is used, it must be taken into account.

I didn't say anything about Advance. It's just a fact that overall BL pokes are more powerful than UU pokes (hence why they are in BL) and so players would use them more than UU pokemon. So much so (with 50 pokemon to choose from) that UU would no longer exist. You can't see what overcentralizes UU if people don't use the old UU pokes on their teams.

How can people use BLs if there are none?

I understand what you mean (the Pokemon formerly classified as BL would be used more than those formerly classified as UU), but what gives prior BL status such importance?

Let's do a thought experiment for a moment. Imagine that the top-tier UUs were classified as BL (Pokemon like Pinsir, as an example). If we unban them, they would be used more than the Pokemon that were UU prior to their unbanning. Does this prove that such Pokemon must be BL?

If OU vs. Uber was decided on little experience, BL vs. UU was decided on none whatsoever. I admit I was complicit in this one, so don't think I'm "railing against the establishment" or anything like that. I'll repeat that again because it bears repeating. The line dividing BL from UU is mostly arbitrary, decided before anyone had played UU (because UU didn't exist, as OU barely existed). Why should we afford it such special accommodations?

If you could guarantee that it would see at least the same level of play as current UU, I would be less apprehensive about these changes.

However if new NU sees the same level of play as current NU (since I joined Shoddy have had 5 NU matches) then those pokemon are pretty much doomed to obscurity.

I can't guarantee that in the short run. If things get mixed up a bit in "UU", that will raise interest in it, and I suspect that a lot of the UU and NU interest overlaps. This could lead to a temporary drop in NU interest. In the long run, however, a larger pool of Pokemon in "NU" (and thus more interesting, varied strategies are legal) would lead to a greater long-term interest. As you've said, you've only had 5 NU matches, which is virtually none. If you're willing to have maybe 3 or 4 instead of 5 in the next <time period>, it will almost certainly lead to a larger number further on down the road.

To be perfectly honest, I'd like to know what was stopping people from creating a competitively BL metagame in ADV and or DP? The only thing that I've heard against this was the fact the BL itself was imbalanced. If so why not ban those pokemon until you have a balanced metagame?

This is identical in result to my plan except for a few differences.

First: A BL tier is almost certainly needed (just like the uber tier is almost certainly needed in OU for Pokemon like Deoxys-A and Rayquaza). This tier would be between OU and whatever is below it. In other words, BL would be rebranded as UU, a new tier would be created as BL, and I'm not sure what would happen with the old UU and NU. In other words, it seems sneakier with its goals.

Second: Those leftover UU and NU tiers would have to be combined eventually (?), with some creation of a new tier as NU. This new NU would be based on the new UU, so having leftover tiers and a somewhat formed NU tier would just lead to the same resistance that we had in OU, and to a lesser extent, now in UU.

Third: We will need a new tier eventually (the Uber / BL tier of NU), and people will make the (natural) assumption that "old UU" would be this ban tier, despite not having any real relation.

In other words, I suspect your method will lead to more confusion, despite creating the same end result.



I hope this covers everything.

 

[Darkflagrance]

(regarding NFE's)

Rarity is never a substitute for balance. If a Pokemon is never used, then banning and not banning are identical (meaning you have no argument). If a Pokemon is used, it must be taken into account.

On the other hand, in past Smogon criteria for determining metagame tiers usage (rarity) when legal has been correlated to relative power/utility. Thus, while rarity may not be a perfect substitute for balance, it does provide significant evidence that the rare phenomenon-usage of NFE pokemon-is not unbalancing. Therefore, given that there are those like me that enjoy the usage of NFE's, it is preferable to allow them.

Although, if your point despite this anti-NFE innuendo is to allow them in UU testing, then I have no quarrel.

EDIT: The other element, of course, is that a good part of what gives that OU pokemon its OU feel is the orgasm you get when it wipes the floor using its broken abilities. How can anything magnitudes of order weaker (no matter how similar it somewhat looks) really give anything more than OU-nostalgia? And then, there are the myriad fine lines that divide NFE's from their evo's such as type, stat switches, etc.

 

[obi]

On the other hand, in past Smogon criteria for determining metagame tiers usage (rarity) when legal has been correlated to relative power/utility.

No. Usage in determining OU vs. UU isn't using usage as a one-step-removed indication of power, it's used as a direct measure of... usage. Notice how BL vs. UU is identical in the usage cut-off points.

Thus, while rarity may not be a perfect substitute for balance, it does provide significant evidence that the rare phenomenon-usage of NFE pokemon-is not unbalancing. Therefore, given that there are those like me that enjoy the usage of NFE's, it is preferable to allow them.

There are also those like me who do not want to see NFEs in UU. However, as I said in the other topic, I don't have much invested in this so this isn't a major issue for me anymore. There is also more to UU than just balance. It is supposed to be "not OU". You have to decide whether the increase in the pool of legal Pokemon is worth a change that will necessarily move UU toward OU if it has any effect at all.

And then, there are the myriad fine lines that divide NFE's from their evo's such as type, stat switches, etc.

I'm not opposed to Pokemon like Onix, Porygon2, Pikachu, etc. I am, however, still opposed to stuff like Gligar, Yanma, and the like.

 

[Darkflagrance]

No. Usage in determining OU vs. UU isn't using usage as a one-step-removed indication of power, it's used as a direct measure of... usage. Notice how BL vs. UU is identical in the usage cut-off points.

Perhaps I misrepresented the actual reasoning behind the divisions of OU and UU. However, in the end the distinction is irrelevant to my core argument: that OU status implies relative force in a metagame.

While factors besides power also impact usage, my argument, though the example may have been flawed, still holds: that the low usage of even undisputed NFE's (for example in OU where less people would object) implies their relative lack of unbalancing traits. It is likely that this is the case with UU with the exception that some NFE's may have the potential to be more competitive in that metagame...in any case, that would be determined with whatever big metagame testing may be planned.

There are also those like me who do not want to see NFEs in UU. However, as I said in the other topic, I don't have much invested in this so this isn't a major issue for me anymore. There is also more to UU than just balance. It is supposed to be "not OU". You have to decide whether the increase in the pool of legal Pokemon is worth a change that will necessarily move UU toward OU if it has any effect at all.



I'm not opposed to Pokemon like Onix, Porygon2, Pikachu, etc. I am, however, still opposed to stuff like Gligar, Yanma, and the like.

From the examples, you seem to oppose pokemon that can pull off the same [broken] strategies [speed boosted sleep, powerful roostwall] as their final forms - the problem with this is that the NFE pokemon may not end up running the same strategy as its final form in OU.

IIRC, the main Gligar set (and strategy) of Advance UU involved Swords Dance, a move I don't recall on the recent Gligars I faced (although this is purely anecdotal).
Also, while Yanma is likely to follow the same moveset as its evolved form, it also possesses the difference of CompoundEyes allowing for more accurate Hypnoses.

Still, Yanma is probably bound by its limited movepool; something like Shelgon exists in a greyer area, for with its defense oriented stats, it might focus on Wishing, which is a role it fills on my UU team.

Whatever the source of your antipathies towards the NFE's you dislike (whether or not I guessed right), I feel it would be better, if NFE's must be segregated from OU, to do so after allowing all of them in a test metagame, in order to see if they are used to some [insert arbitrary number] degree to resemble their final forms. Even here there are problems I shall not elaborate upon.

The source of all this further argument is the current definition of UU that tries to make it 'not OU', for this technicality with a vague meaning has seen the sudden exclusion of things like Tentacruel and Frosslass from the metagame. It seems to appear at random moments to exclude pokemon while itself remains unquestioned.
I do not debate the latter exclusions by use, for in the end that issue will be solved separately. However, perhaps a revamped establishment of metagames would be better served by eliminating this from the criteria.

 

[sam_is_cool]

On the issue of NFE in uu some should make a list ona case by case basis on which one are allowed in and which ones are not allowed someone whos been playing for a long time

 

[obi]

From the examples, you seem to oppose pokemon that can pull off the same [broken] strategies [speed boosted sleep, powerful roostwall] as their final forms - the problem with this is that the NFE pokemon may not end up running the same strategy as its final form in OU.

I'm opposed to Pokemon that have no real advantages over their fully-evolved counterpart.

IIRC, the main Gligar set (and strategy) of Advance UU involved Swords Dance, a move I don't recall on the recent Gligars I faced (although this is purely anecdotal).

But Gliscor still can do that, and it can do it strictly better than Gligar can.

Also, while Yanma is likely to follow the same moveset as its evolved form, it also possesses the difference of CompoundEyes allowing for more accurate Hypnoses.

I had forgotten about this. My point wasn't really Yanma in particular, but more against the idea that we should ban most NFEs, except those that were considered UU in previous generations ("grandfather in" Pokemon like Gligar solely because they were UU in ADV). I'm just as opposed to those Pokemon as I am to Haunter, Kadabra, Chansey, Metang, Gabite, and Magikarp.

Whatever the source of your antipathies towards the NFE's you dislike (whether or not I guessed right), I feel it would be better, if NFE's must be segregated from OU, to do so after allowing all of them in a test metagame, in order to see if they are used to some [insert arbitrary number] degree to resemble their final forms. Even here there are problems I shall not elaborate upon.

But that is irrelevant! You can know purely by looking at stats, typing, ability, and movepool whether the NFE form would be at a disadvantage in every way to its evolved form. For instance, Gliscor may not use a Swords Dance set in OU often, but it still does it better than Gligar. Pupitar, on the other hand, actually has a stronger Earthquake than Tyranitar and has Shed Skin instead of Sand Stream. Vigoroth gets Vital Spirit instead of Truant. Pikachu gets the offensive stats boost from Light Ball.

The source of all this further argument is the current definition of UU that tries to make it 'not OU', for this technicality with a vague meaning has seen the sudden exclusion of things like Tentacruel and Frosslass from the metagame. It seems to appear at random moments to exclude pokemon while itself remains unquestioned.

Are you suggesting that Tentacruel should be allowed in UU despite being rather firmly OU according to usage statistics (unless this has changed dramatically this last month, since I'll admit I haven't looked up Tentacruel)? That's not a technicality, that's a definition of UU.

 

[Forsety]

Are you suggesting that Tentacruel should be allowed in UU despite being rather firmly OU according to usage statistics (unless this has changed dramatically this last month, since I'll admit I haven't looked up Tentacruel)? That's not a technicality, that's a definition of UU.

He's fallen quite considerably down to 43, 7 places away from the UU cutoff. If the trend continues we could see it sinking a few more places in upcoming months.

 

[evolutia]

Pupitar, on the other hand, actually has a stronger Earthquake than Tyranitar and has Shed Skin instead of Sand Stream.

Those qualities are hardly as unique as your making them out to be. Every single set that Pupitar would use in UU could be utilized better by Tyranitar. Pupitar constitutes as much OU-liteness as say Metang from my perspective.

I don't think a pokemon should be banned just because their evolved from outclasses them. Banning should only be used as a "last" resort. What has Magikarp done to the UU metagame that can only be solved by it's banishment.

Why don't we take your approach a bit futher....Stronger Pokemon (Ubers) that outclass almost every single pokemon in the game. Since they're weaker, why not ban them?

NFE's should be looked at as individuals. It's easy to see which pokemon bring such an OU element to the UU meta that could be harmful (Haunter, Kadabra) when compared to others that do not (Ralts and Magkarp), such a blanketed ban is just absurd, otherwise why not carry this to the other metagames? Making Ubers the only playable one.

 

[obi]

Those qualities are hardly as unique as your making them out to be. Every single set that Pupitar would use in UU could be utilized better by Tyranitar. Pupitar constitutes as much OU-liteness as say Metang from my perspective.

Pupitar switched into Thunderbolt! Pupitar used Dragon Dance! Pupitar used Earthquake! It was stronger than Tyranitar's!

Alternately, Pupitar switched into Will-O-Wisp, and used Dragon Dance until Shed Skin kicked in!

If you prefer, Pupitar did whatever! Come back, Pupitar! Go, Scyther! Scyther, Endure! Scyther, use not faint to Sandstorm!

That's a pretty big difference.

Why don't we take your approach a bit futher....Stronger Pokemon (Ubers) that outclass almost every single pokemon in the game. Since they're weaker, why not ban them?

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "outclass", at least as I'm using it. Kyogre doesn't even outclass Luvdisc because Luvdisc is faster and has a different ability. The only fully evolved Pokemon I can think of that is truly outclassed by another Pokemon is Unown vs. most Levitating Psychics (for instance, Azelf).

 

[Nokocchi]

NFE Pokemon I think should be used in UU/NU due to key differences from their evolutions:

Dragonair: Pure Dragon, Shed Skin
Yanma: Compoundeyes
Pupitar: Ground/Rock, Shed Skin
Shelgon: Pure Dragon, Higher Defense, Rock Head
Porygon2: Higher Defenses, Trace
Onix: Rock/Ground, Higher Speed
Scyther: Bug/Flying, Higher Speed
Trapinch: Pure Ground, Arena Trap/Hypercutter, Same Base Attack as Flygon
Clamperl: Shell Armor, Boost from DeepSeaTooth/DeepSeaScale

I saw a Trickroom team with a Trapinch and a DeepSeaTooth Clamperl before. They were 1HKOing things left and right. It was quite an odd sight, actually O.o;

 

[evolutia]

Pupitar switched into Thunderbolt! Pupitar used Dragon Dance! Pupitar used Earthquake! It was stronger than Tyranitar's!

Charmelon switched into Thunderbolt! It did not take x2 damage because it's not Fire/Flying!

Alternately, Pupitar switched into Will-O-Wisp, and used Dragon Dance until Shed Skin kicked in!

Alternately, Charmelon switched into Steath Rock, and it did not take 50% off of it's health!

If you prefer, Pupitar did whatever! Come back, Pupitar! Go, Scyther! Scyther, Endure! Scyther, use not faint to Sandstorm!

That's a pretty big difference.

If you prefer, Charmelon came in and used Belly Drum! It did not take 50% from Stealth Rock and may have an easier time setting up due to not having the same typing as Charizard!

Those are pretty big differences.

This of course is assuming your against Charmelon's inclusion in UU, because overall Charizard does this better minus the points I just outlined. Just like Tyranitar uses the sets Pupitar does better minus the differences that you outlined.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "outclass", at least as I'm using it. Kyogre doesn't even outclass Luvdisc because Luvdisc is faster and has a different ability.

Yes, because Luvdisc having those differences actually makes it a "viable" choice with Kyogre around. Overall Kyogre outclasses it minus the points you outlined.

The only fully evolved Pokemon I can think of that is truly outclassed by another Pokemon is Unown vs. most Levitating Psychics (for instance, Azelf).

So you would be against Unown being allowed in any metagame? Let's look at Rayquaza vs Salamence, overall which is the better pokemon?

I'm sorry if I came off as rude in anyway, but I was just mirroring that attitude that you gave me.

Banning pokemon should only be used at a last resort. Not a first one. On paper it would look like allowing NFE's would create a OU-mini metagame, however due to NFE's having lower stats and often not all the moves available to them as there evolved counterparts they cannot possibly have the same level of centralization.

Keep in mind that the main reason why people play UU is to use their favorites in an environment more suited for them. Ex. Quilava is my favorite pokemon! I can actually use it somewhat effectively in this metagame called UU!? Oh wow I can't wait to use it. ;_; what? I can't use it in UU because Typlosion outclasses it?(Who is BL) It's banned because it does nothing to effect the metagame that it could be used it?

That is why I'm against your mindset as I understand it Obi. I am an avid UU player and understand why people play it, to use your favorites and be competitive at the same time. To break away from OU. Banning pre evolutions that do not over centralize (Haunter is a pokemon that overcentralizes) the metagame is just silly to me.

 

[obi]

This of course is assuming your against Charmelon's inclusion in UU, because overall Charizard does this better minus the points I just outlined. Just like Tyranitar uses the sets Pupitar does better minus the differences that you outlined.

You shouldn't assume.

So you would be against Unown being allowed in any metagame?

Unown is the real sticking point, I'd say, and is the main reason I got out of this debate in the topic that was set up for it.

Let's look at Rayquaza vs Salamence, overall which is the better pokemon?

Salamence is faster and takes physical hits better with Intimidate.

To break away from OU. Banning pre evolutions that do not over centralize (Haunter is a pokemon that overcentralizes) the metagame is just silly to me.

And how are you so certain Haunter is overcentralizing? I was never even convinced of this in ADV UU.

 

[evolutia]

You shouldn't assume.

Then you shouldn't either, oh that's right you did.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "outclass"

^^^ Posted by you.

Salamence is faster and takes physical hits better with Intimidate.

You didn't answer my question? Your going to have to be more direct because I don't want to "assume".

And how are you so certain Haunter is overcentralizing? I was never even convinced of this in ADV UU.

Are you not against pokemon that are weaker than they're evolved counterparts? (Or even the Unown factor) I should of said would appear to be even overcentralizing than ADV. It's gotten alot better than it was in ADV due to special Shadow Ball. It folds over special walls not named Hypno with Hypnosis. Your not convinced that it was in ADV? Even though you are against some like Haunter even being allowed in the first place?

EDIT:

No offense to you Obi but when you respond some of what your say makes it up for interpretation (assumption) because your not giving a direct answer.

 

[obi]

Then you shouldn't either, oh that's right you did.

Where?

^^^ Posted by you.

Because you made a false statement which could only be considered correct if by outclass you meant "are generally better than". Please name an uber that truly outclasses any OU Pokemon.

You didn't answer my question? Your going to have to be more direct because I don't want to "assume".

Overall I'd use Rayquaza. However, in a discussion about outclassing, Rayquaza does not outclass Salamence because of the things I mentioned.

 

[evolutia]

I thought I was being very clear when I posted (Posted 1763) that I was talking about "are generally better than". Sure a pokemon may have little quirks that make them better than ubers in some way but the pure power of the ubers renders most those quirks moot.

Anyway, I think I'm going to wait for others to chime in their opinion because it seems like if I continue this would go into a back and forth issue and detract from what I first said in post 1763.

 

[obi]

That's what prompted my comment about "outclass". There's a difference between "generally better than" and "outclass".

 

[ODDish]

I'm voting to get this overhaul in action ASAP now, as UU has become as stale and depressing as OU ... nine out of my last ten battles saw me facing slight variations of the same team.

If NFE's look as if they will become such an issue that they slow this down I vote to ban them all ... bar those that are already widely accepted.

 

[Trust]

I think that there are NFE that could be allowed in UU, but no all of them, because people who play UU, like Shiny Oddish and me, will have to play in a little OU, and we want a different metagame. The main diference between NFE and the fully evolution form could be:
-Type: Charizard/Charmeleon Tyranitar/Pupitar
-Ability: Yanmega/Yanma Dragonite/Dragonair (type too)
-Stats: Poliwrath/Poliwhirl Magnezone/Magneton

That doesn't mean that if Dragonite is OU, Dragonair is UU, because it could be strong to UU, but we could find two differences between Dragonite and Dragonair: the type, where Dragonair have no weakness to Rock and a 2x weakness to Ice; and the Ability, Shed Skin, which Dragonite would love to have instead of Inner Focus.
However, I can't find the point in pokemons like Kadabra, Chansey or Haunter. They are the same as their evolutions. Tell me just one good difference between those three and their evolutions.

UU shouldn't be the house of NFE, only those ones which have differences with their evolutions.

 

[evolutia]

I think that there are NFE that could be allowed in UU, but no all of them, because people who play UU, like Shiny Oddish and me, will have to play in a little OU, and we want a different metagame.

So you are for the banning of a pokemon that does not pose a negative effect on the metagame? Keep in mind that NFE's in most cases are not as strong as their evolved forms. Since they aren't as strong they cannot possibly have the same level as centralization. Many UU pokemon can surpass NFE's.

Allowing NFE's could not possibly turn the UU metagame into OU. Jr. If a NFE is proven to be overcentralizing they why can it be looked at on an individual level instead of a blanket ban?

Again, what is the point in banning a pokemon that poses no negative effect on the metagame?

However, I can't find the point in pokemons like Kadabra, Chansey or Haunter.

You have listed high end NFE's that could be overcentralizing in the UU metagame, however what about the latter? Such pokemon as Quilava and Croconaw? I can't see those two possibly having a negative effect on the UU metagame, and if they do guess what? We can ban them.

Again, what is the point in banning a pokemon that poses no negative effect on the metagame?

They are the same as their evolutions. Tell me just one good difference between those three and their evolutions.

NFE's are not the same as their evolutions. They are weaker due to having lower base stats and cannot possibly have the same level of centralization as there fully-evolved counterparts. If a NFE is proven to be overcentralizing they why can't it just be banned instead of putting a blanket ban on NFE's as a whole?

And I will say again, what is the point in banning a pokemon that poses no negative effect on the metagame?

UU shouldn't be the house of NFE, only those ones which have differences with their evolutions.

Because banning something that would have no negative repercussions on the metagame makes sense to you? I don't understand this line of thinking at all. Try using NFE's like you would in OU and see how far you can get. You will find that you cannot use NFE's just like their fully evolved forms and then you will (hopfully) come to a realization the banning pokemon that pose no neagative effect on the metagame is just absurd.

 

[ODDish]

Again, what is the point in banning a pokemon that poses no negative effect on the metagame?

Depends how you are defining negative ... as whilst not necessarily powerful, I personally wouldn't want to encourage the use of gimmicky stuff like FEAR Rattata/Starly/Phanpy or Sash TR Room Ralts/Banette particularly desirable.

 

[evolutia]

Depends how you are defining negative ... as whilst not necessarily powerful, I personally wouldn't want to encourage the use of gimmicky stuff like FEAR Rattata/Starly/Phanpy or Sash TR Room Ralts/Banette particularly desirable.

I would define a negative as something so centralizing and so problematic that could only be solved by banning the said pokemon. Would those said gimmicks effect the UU metagame in such a way that it can only be solved by their banning?

Do pokemon such as Quilava and Croconaw have the same level of centralization as Chansey and Haunter just because they share the status of NFE?

NFE's add more variety to the UU metagame at the cost of nothing negative in return from my perspective. (and if such a pokemon is found be an extreme negative it can be banned). It allows the use of favorites, I just don't understand how one can be for the banning of pokemon that overall don't produce an extreme negative effects on the meta.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I'm voting to get this overhaul in action ASAP now, as UU has become as stale and depressing as OU ... nine out of my last ten battles saw me facing slight variations of the same team.

If NFE's look as if they will become such an issue that they slow this down I vote to ban them all ... bar those that are already widely accepted.

Seconded. As I've said before, I am neutral on the NFE debate, but I am of the opinion that if there is not an immediate consensus reached on the matter, and there clearly isn't, then we should not let it delay the process for the time being.

Again, the one thing I want is for a new tier to be established as soon as possible, and clearly the only way to do this is to initially adopt the no NFE rule that we have always held and then once the tiers have settled to return to this issue. evolutia, would it really put you off battling in these new tiers from the beginning if NFEs weren't allowed?

Again, what is the point in banning a pokemon that poses no negative effect on the metagame?

In addition to what Shiny Oddish has mentioned, I think people are mainly adverse to NFEs not because they would centralize, after all most would not, but the fact that most of them would end up using similar strategies to their fully evolved counterparts, which are things that people are generally bored of seeing in OU and want to see mostly completely fresh strategies that the distinct Pokemon that aren't used much bring to the table. Before replying to this, pay attention to what I have italicized.

You will find that you cannot use NFE's just like their fully evolved forms

I'm pretty sure that stuff like Yanma, Sneasel, Piloswine and the like would feel right at home using exactly the same strategies as their FE counterparts in lower tiers. In some cases they are the only competitively viable options they have. Again though, this is subject to opinion and I'm neutral on the subject, I'm just saying you should be careful of what exactly you are trying to say in cases where it is not necessarily true.

 

[ODDish]

Would those said gimmicks effect the UU metagame in such a way that it can only be solved by their banning?

No ... however it would IMHO reinforce the notion that UU is a less seriously competitive environment than OU, which is not a good thing.

Do pokemon such as Quilava and Croconaw have the same level of centralization as Chansey and Haunter just because they share the status of NFE?

My last post was purely a response to your suggestion that NFE's pose no negative effect.

I honestly don't want to be drawn further into the NFE argument ...

I will however reiterate my stance, purely for the sake of making my position clear

As long as the NFE a) doesn't overcentralise the metagame (hippopotas/snover), b) actually serves purpose (in the case of pokemon whose final stage evo is UU, the NFE should offer some significant difference), and c) doesn't promote the use of cheap/gimmicky crap like FEAR, I have no problem with it's inclusion.

However as I said previously should the NFE issue considerably slow the implementation of the planned changes, I would vote in favour of mass banning, because, unfortunately I have reached a stage where I am no longer finding UU enjoyable, and hope that this new tiering system will breathe new life into the tier.