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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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but i still dont see how you plan on determining what is too strong for UU if you put all the BL's in there at the same time. What are you testing them against? When one bl team plays against another, it wont do anything to show what is too strong for UU, because it will be a disadvantage to even use most UU pokemon when there are better options in BL. Who will use aggron over steelix, or specs altaria over specs flygon?
You would determine what is overcentralizing in your [former] BL/UU Mix of pokes and ban those back to BL. The overall power level of UU would go up with the inclusion of BL pokes, but you'd eventually find a balance. Although TBH, the idea of what constitutes overcentralizing is still highly debated.
This is getting far too much based on guesswork (as nothing is written in stone yet) but all I said was IF some NFE's got into BL/OU, then likely BL and OU would need to be retested. Maybe, maybe not, though. We'll see.
And yes, I agree. And if Shoddy does UU usage, it would make everything much simpler. Not so sure if that's going to happen, but it would sure help if it did.
I would love to see this happen. But if you were going to reform the tiers there are some obvious pokes in BL that shouldnt be tested for UU IMO. Take shaymin for instance.
Same way we determine if something is too strong for OU... things like Chansey will obviously be too overpowering for UU...
My guess is that Kadabra, and Haunter will also overpower... imagine scarf-gar or specs-gar.... and then give it to Haunter who is basically the same thing. If gengar is top tier OU then it's pre-evolved form will be too strong for UU...
Kadabra meanwhile will have amazing special attack, coupled with great speed. A specs version would tear up UU quickly.
Those are just some examples.
Then could you please re-word your proposal a little then ... after your initial "I recommend we git rid of of the 50 member BL list" you make no mention of its recreation, albeit on a smaller scale.
Or would they? If the new "UU" (hopefully it won't be called UU) ends up packed with the likes of Empoloeon, Magmortar and Exeggutor could we really argue that Chansey is too powerful? Are Kadabra and Haunter really any more powerful than Aerodactyl, Slaking and Crobat?
A good deal of the pokemon of the stuff that has traditionally been "UU" would likely have been moved down to the equivalent of "NU" (again hopefull not called that) making it more difficult to predetermine what is too powerful ...
I'm sure anything w/ pursuit would likely OHKO Haunter and Kadabra.
I suggest you read a couple pages back so you know what's going on at the moment. (Even reading this page could give you a clue).
If Sneasel is still condisered UU, I'm sure it can switch in on Haunter's Shadowball [of Kadabra's Psychic] && Pursuit away.evolutia said:
Any system where we start off with everything and then decide to ban 'too-strong pokemon' and eventually stop at the new UU needs a well-defined stopping point.
Right now there isn't one, as is obvious upon inspection.
Our goal here has always been to define this point. This arbitrary testing doesn't help defining the point at all unless we use a 'removal breeds more variety' or 'removal breeds more competition' rubric.
And this STILL has not been decided on!
The quintessential question is this: do we want UU to have the largest number of usable pokemon or simply the best behind the top 75% used (OU)?
Answer this and you have the rubric.
With a rubric and repetition of testing you have a stopping point.
With a stopping point, you have BL/UU.
Yes, that sums up the debate quite nicely. My impression has been, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the goal is to have the largest number of Pokemon in UU. NFE's will surely swell UU by a considerable number, and if BL's start getting put into UU it will make it larger still.
Currently there are 493 pokemon ...
69 of these are currently defined as either OU or Uber.
This leaves 424 that are potentially viable in the new "BL"/"UU"/"NU" environments, although I'm asusuming one of the goals of this reevaluation is decrease the number of pokemon labelled "BL".
Of the 424 remaining ...
59 are currently designated as BL
145 as UU
which leaves 220 NFE's currently without tier status.
Assuming an even split between the three tiers (which is unlikely) your looking at around 141 per tier (only 10 less a piece than the total number of pokemon from RBY) making them rather bloated IMHO.
69 of these are currently defined as either OU or Uber.
This leaves 424 that are potentially viable in the new "BL"/"UU"/"NU" environments, although I'm asusuming one of the goals of this reevaluation is decrease the number of pokemon labelled "BL".
Of the 424 remaining ...
59 are currently designated as BL
145 as UU
which leaves 220 NFE's currently without tier status.
Assuming an even split between the three tiers (which is unlikely) your looking at around 141 per tier (only 10 less a piece than the total number of pokemon from RBY) making them rather bloated IMHO.
Do remember that only about 30-40 NFEs would actually make it above NU. So we'd have BL, with the very top NFEs (Chansey, Porygon 2, etc.), then we'll have UU with the next two dozen or so NFEs, then the other 85% of NFEs would just be NU. And on the tier list, for the NU tier, it would probably just list all the fully evolved NUs, and then say 'And all other NFE Pokemon'.
Also, think of it this way. Imagine Pinsir evolved into Heracross. I'm sure it would be used even less than it is being used now. Not because it would be any worse, but simply because it evolves. This is one of those stupid beliefs. If a Pokemon evolves, it does NOT mean that it is weak. If a Pokemon isn't a legendary, it does NOT mean that it can't be uber.
Also, say Kababra, Gabite and Haunter were allowed in UU. They wouldn't make it 'OU-lite' would they? Gabite would see some use, surely, but it would be no where near as used in UU as Garchomp is in OU, therefore it wouldn't be like OU. Haunter would also be less dominating than Gengar is in OU, yet Kadabra would probably be more dominating in UU than Alakazam is in OU (I'm basing this on the fact that Kadabra has a higher Special Attack than all UUs except Glaceon and he's in the top 10 for Speed). Again, that wouldn't make it 'OU-lite' because Alakazam plays a minor role in OU.
And remember, we can always add another tier, whether it is another faux tier between UU and NU, or another usage tier (although I can see how that would make things harder).
Also, think of it this way. Imagine Pinsir evolved into Heracross. I'm sure it would be used even less than it is being used now. Not because it would be any worse, but simply because it evolves. This is one of those stupid beliefs. If a Pokemon evolves, it does NOT mean that it is weak. If a Pokemon isn't a legendary, it does NOT mean that it can't be uber.
Also, say Kababra, Gabite and Haunter were allowed in UU. They wouldn't make it 'OU-lite' would they? Gabite would see some use, surely, but it would be no where near as used in UU as Garchomp is in OU, therefore it wouldn't be like OU. Haunter would also be less dominating than Gengar is in OU, yet Kadabra would probably be more dominating in UU than Alakazam is in OU (I'm basing this on the fact that Kadabra has a higher Special Attack than all UUs except Glaceon and he's in the top 10 for Speed). Again, that wouldn't make it 'OU-lite' because Alakazam plays a minor role in OU.
And remember, we can always add another tier, whether it is another faux tier between UU and NU, or another usage tier (although I can see how that would make things harder).
My concern was that 424 pokemon between 3 tiers seemed rather a lot, and that irregardless of actual placement some tiers would be bloated, which has implications as regards team building, strategies etc.
Other than stating the number of NFE's, I didn't make any reference to their potential impact, and to be honest I simply don't want to be embroiled in further discussion of the issue, so I'm not going to respond to most of your post.
Whilst the addition of another tier would alleviate the problem of "overcrowding" to an extent, as you noted it complicates things in other ways and to be honest I'mnot sure how popular a solution it would be ...
Other than stating the number of NFE's, I didn't make any reference to their potential impact, and to be honest I simply don't want to be embroiled in further discussion of the issue, so I'm not going to respond to most of your post.
Whilst the addition of another tier would alleviate the problem of "overcrowding" to an extent, as you noted it complicates things in other ways and to be honest I'mnot sure how popular a solution it would be ...
My bit about the impact of NFEs in UU wasn't directed at you. Sorry. Some people before you were complaining that things like Sneasel and Haunter would make UU like 'Diet-OU'. And I was just saying why that probably wouldn't be the case.
Not necessarily. If they added 500 clones of Unown, there would be no actual difference in any tier, except that NU would look larger. It would be a purely cosmetic difference.
There is going to be a tier between NU and UU that is NU's version of Uber / BL.
You've sort of got the right idea, although I see this new UU being mainly dominated by the current BL Pokemon. Precious few UUs and NFEs will be competitively viable against these powerhouses, so they will have their own tier, currently labelled NU.
This is why I think we should scrap this naming system for now; it is confusing for people who haven't been following this discussion from the beginning. People see the term NU and immediately think of all the uninteresting garbage that populates the tier right now, when in fact under new proposals 'NU' will not likely be too different from current 'UU' plus NFEs.
As for all this talk about Haunter, Kadabra and the like, I honestly think that Haunter will be completely out of its depth in the new 'UU' environment (again don't take the names too literally) whilst there will be no reason to use Kadabra at the beginning as Alakazam will be a viable option there. Granted, there is a possibility that Alakazam will be too powerful there, but even if that were the case Kadabra is unlikely to be too much of a threat.
^Alakazam may be put straight into BL because he sometimes gets into OU, and sometimes just misses it (and it's relatively likely that he may be too strong for UU). I'm guessing it depends on what we get from the statistics tommorrow as to whether Alakazam is UU or OU, but having to move Alakazam from OU to UU to BL every month or so may be a bit of a pain, so he's one of the ones that may just go from OU to BL and back every quarter.
And if there is a new faux tier for NU, then *yay*! That'll help with the banning of Shelgon, Seadra, Clampearl, etc. in NU.
And if there is a new faux tier for NU, then *yay*! That'll help with the banning of Shelgon, Seadra, Clampearl, etc. in NU.
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