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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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Regarding Regigigas, I think it should be shoved down to UU. Its stats are terrible under Slow Start and if the only thing it's good for while waiting for it to end are parafusion/subbing, people are going to know what to expect and be ready to counter it (Own Tempo, guts/quick feet, etc...). Anyone that allows Gigas to last five turns deserves to be swept by it. Even then, there are priority moves.
One other Pokemon I wanted to discuss is Octillery and whether or not it belongs in BL.
Octillery has base 105 in each attack stat, meaning that with a beneficial nature it has a potential of 339 for both, which can be boosted with either a choice band or choice specs (even Life Orb if you so wish). It only has base 65 speed, but it has access to Thunder Wave. If you wish not to opt for Thunder Wave you can equip it with Zoom Lens to take advantage of being outsped, and abusing Sniper with the increased critical damage (Payback can also be abused in this way).
Not only does it have impressive attack stats, it has a varied movepool on both sides of the spectrum:
Physical: Waterfall, Gunk Shot, Flail, Payback, Return, Bullet Seed, Rock Blast, Giga Impact
Special: Octazooka, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Wring out, Brine/Surf, Energy Ball, Signal Beam, Aurora Beam, Sludge Bomb, Psychic, Ice Beam.
As you can see the special attack choices are extremely varied, if you come in, and then Twave, you've got a lot of options. Too broken for BL? Its defensive power isn't really too great, I'd say even one thunderbolt from Manectric would OHKO. If you want to bring it in, it's going to need to come in for a revenge kill.
One other Pokemon I wanted to discuss is Octillery and whether or not it belongs in BL.
Octillery has base 105 in each attack stat, meaning that with a beneficial nature it has a potential of 339 for both, which can be boosted with either a choice band or choice specs (even Life Orb if you so wish). It only has base 65 speed, but it has access to Thunder Wave. If you wish not to opt for Thunder Wave you can equip it with Zoom Lens to take advantage of being outsped, and abusing Sniper with the increased critical damage (Payback can also be abused in this way).
Not only does it have impressive attack stats, it has a varied movepool on both sides of the spectrum:
Physical: Waterfall, Gunk Shot, Flail, Payback, Return, Bullet Seed, Rock Blast, Giga Impact
Special: Octazooka, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Wring out, Brine/Surf, Energy Ball, Signal Beam, Aurora Beam, Sludge Bomb, Psychic, Ice Beam.
As you can see the special attack choices are extremely varied, if you come in, and then Twave, you've got a lot of options. Too broken for BL? Its defensive power isn't really too great, I'd say even one thunderbolt from Manectric would OHKO. If you want to bring it in, it's going to need to come in for a revenge kill.
Did I miss something here? Glaceon making BL before Articuno?
Glaceon hits hard but it doesn't have much in the way of support or choice. Shadowball/Ice Beam are its attacks and Wish passing is all it can do...well I suppose you could try Avalanche/Curse if your crazy.
Articuno however has 100/125 defenses, Roost, Reflect, STAB Ice Beams, U-Turn and 85 speed? (85 is fast in UU, 80 is already pretty solid in UU). Its not brilliant on the offense but its a godly wall/support.
They're pretty okay, not terribly strong just good enough but very fast in UU. Their strength has always been they can hit super effective on nearly everything in the game and from both sides at that.
Well said. Nobody has even mentioned Regigigas respectable 80 s.atk yet which it can still easily use.Lemmiwinks MkII said:
Something as simple as Thunder Wave/Confuse Ray/Thunderbolt or Focus Blast for its first 3 moves can already become a very strong selection with those defenses. Then if you're lucky enough to go the whole 5 turns then thats an automatic minimum 356 attack to you.
One mistake I think is people underestimating the strength of parafusion in general and I'll remind most it reduces your chances of a successful attack to one third of the time. If you do the math than thats only just 1 attack that will be successful on average out of 4 turns after setting it up.
The day I get revenge killed by a Octillery with that speed with no setup will be when I'm swept by a Luvdisc.
Octillery is balanced enough the thing takes alot of prediction to use, its not as if you can simply take out half of UU with it alone with no setup or support. Octillery NEEDS support. Its not even as if it overpowers anything either, Relicanth despite its weaknesses completely overpowers things yet its still easily considered UU for other reasons.
If Octillery gets a boost from Ninjask, it will be a beast. Also, you can't be roared thank to Suction Cups. If you have an Special set, it could be stopped by Blissey, and if it's the Physical one, by Skarmory easily. But it only works if it goes with Ninjask, who is in BL, so in UU alone, it couldn't sweep too much, so it's well there, and if you want to use it, go to OU or with other BPasser in UU. It's right where it is.
The main reason I think Articuno isn't too overpowered for UU is Stealth Rock. There are still tons of pokemon in UU capable of setting it up, and once it's up Articuno takes 50% whenever it tries to come in to take a hit. If SR is up, Articuno's basically working with half it's health.
Without SR, though...it walls quite a few UU pokemon (mainly flying types that have no access to rock attacks and are forced to rely on Steel Wing), but nearly anything with a rock attack is capable of a 2HKO at the very least (1HKO with SR).
I think it'd be an effective wall in UU, but I don't think it'd be overpowered.
Entei, on the other hand, is more difficult. Generally, the most effective set for him would be mixed, with Stone Edge, Fire Fang/Flamethrower, HP, and Will o' Wisp. With this set...Rock/Steel types and Rock types in general wall him unless he's packing HP Fighting/Ground, but water types wall him unless he's carrying HP Grass. I don't have a real solid opinion as to whether he should be BL or UU yet.
No, Hazing is removing buffs, and he doesn't have any "debuffs", he actually is at base 160 attack, and base 100 defense. Hazing is the act of removing buffs or stat changes, and hazing him does nothing to him, it doesn't affect slow start, it doesn't boost him, or keep him slow. Only PHazing, which is getting rid of him. And that's exactly what I said, so don't act like I don't know anything.
Octillery, I have used in BL, and even with the boosts from ninjask, he's... decent at best. He still takes a hit when switching in (considering ninjask usually doesn't get to pass the sub), and he usually can't OHKO walls (in fact, he usually does abysmal damage to them) and they rough him up.
I've tried it a few times, and I was disappointed. I don't think he's overpowered at all.
I for one would like someone to name a Pokemon in UU who can take Mamoswine on, 1 on 1, without being crippled. Sure, most flying Pokemon will laugh at the 130 Attack Earthquakes, but how many of those flyers can laugh at the Ice Shards/Avalanches? Cradily?
I also want to bring up Glaceon. Yes, its slow. Yes, its got average special defense and below average HP. Yes, his movepool blows. But Hail + Blizzard + Snow Cloak would bound to be annoying in UU off of 130 Special Attack, and not many UU Pokemon could take that. I guess the main defense for Glaceon in UU is that he is a one trick pony, true, because outside of Ice Attacks its Shadow Ball(not good for a 2nd move). The Hail + Blizzard + Fake Tears + Shadow Ball set in UU could be deadly if UU Pokemon allow it to set up. I am not lobbying for Glaceon in BL, but he will be a force to be reckoned with in UU.
I also want to bring up Glaceon. Yes, its slow. Yes, its got average special defense and below average HP. Yes, his movepool blows. But Hail + Blizzard + Snow Cloak would bound to be annoying in UU off of 130 Special Attack, and not many UU Pokemon could take that. I guess the main defense for Glaceon in UU is that he is a one trick pony, true, because outside of Ice Attacks its Shadow Ball(not good for a 2nd move). The Hail + Blizzard + Fake Tears + Shadow Ball set in UU could be deadly if UU Pokemon allow it to set up. I am not lobbying for Glaceon in BL, but he will be a force to be reckoned with in UU.
... that's assuming it's in the Hail all the time, which it is not in UU without having to waste a moveslot/item slot on a Pokemon. Remember, Abomasnow isn't in UU (which I doubt it will be - I personally dislike the lower tiers, but infinite weather moves should gtfo of UU imo), so I don't see your point.
Tires Don ExitsIt's actually a shame that all UUs I've seen deserve it. Blastoise < Milotic as Restalker and < Claydol as Rapid SpinnerPrimeape < Infernape as sweeperGolem < RhyperiorDunsparce < Togekiss as Serene Grace ParaflincherQuagsire < SwampertOnce in a while Cradily works for me, though, especially when he can hold up long enough to ParaFuse ans sandstorm.
Yeah fake tears would cripple blissey. I'd wanna see how calm mind would work, though, if Glaceon gets Nasty Plot'd toNess said:
... Swords Dance and Screech both cripple Skarmory/Hippowdon/INSERT PHYSICAL WALL HERE, so anyone who learns that automatically should go to BL! Oh, wait, they shouldn't... And I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say with the next sentence.
Although, I don't know about you, but I'd switch instead of keeping Blissey in on Fake Tears. Because I wouldn't keep Blissey in on a Pokemon that's using Fake Tears on it over and over again, whilst Blissey won't be able to do shit to it. Because it's incredibly retarded to Ice Beam Glaceon over and over again while it's setting up Fake Tears on you.
All I see Fake Tears as is special attack oriented screech, which only serves to force switches. Plus, it sucks seeing as the effect only lasts till the opponent switches out, which is most likely going to be the result when I get a reduction of 2 in my Defense or Special Defense stats.
Like the guy after you mentioned, Abomasnow is BL so you're going to have to set Hail up manually. Even then, though...Glaceon's STAB'd Blizzards/IB's are certainly powerful, but there are several 4x Ice resists in UU that'll just laugh (252 HP, no sp def Lapras takes 13.92% - 16.51% from Blizzard and 25.00% - 29.48% from Shadow Ball, Walrein has defensive stats very similar to Lapras, Dewgong has lower defenses than either of them but still takes little damage) and won't take a whole lot more from it's other attacks. Even if you don't have a 4x Ice resist, there are a lot of things that can survive a hit or two from it and KO it back (Ice has plenty of weaknesses and Glaceon is pretty slow).
Why would you BP Nasty Plot to Glaceon in the first place? Low speed, awful movepool, and it's not particularly durable either.
@Foresty:
Yes, people did talk about Regigigas's special attacking abilities. I did mention this one page back, and this explains why his supporting and special attacking still isn't that great, even for UU. I also mentioned in the post that quote was in, that most sets don't run special attack EVs, so what's 196 special attack going to actually hurt coming off of unSTAB moves going to do? Plus, in that set you mentioned, what's the point of stalling for slow start when you have no physical attacks? :S
To people saying Octillery:
He may have good offenses and no be able to be phazed, but so what? It has crappy defenses and only 45 base speed. It'll be able to do 1 or maybe 2 hits before it goes down...the fact that it basically HAS to be baton passed stuff to be good is very bad, as everything can have a bunch of stuff passed to it and be good. Needs to stay in UU.
Yes, people did talk about Regigigas's special attacking abilities. I did mention this one page back, and this explains why his supporting and special attacking still isn't that great, even for UU. I also mentioned in the post that quote was in, that most sets don't run special attack EVs, so what's 196 special attack going to actually hurt coming off of unSTAB moves going to do? Plus, in that set you mentioned, what's the point of stalling for slow start when you have no physical attacks? :S
To people saying Octillery:
He may have good offenses and no be able to be phazed, but so what? It has crappy defenses and only 45 base speed. It'll be able to do 1 or maybe 2 hits before it goes down...the fact that it basically HAS to be baton passed stuff to be good is very bad, as everything can have a bunch of stuff passed to it and be good. Needs to stay in UU.
Muhed said:
True, that's why I wouldn't use any "lowering" moves in general unless I had Umbreon to Mean Look/Charm.
Fishin said:
He has decent defense if he were to switch in on anything but a special sweeper, but a physical sweeper would likely have SD'd before I could do much with that, and he'd be outsped even if he held a focus sash. It seems pretty situational, but I think Glaceon has potential for BL since its defenses are better than a lot of guys with identical Sp Atk.
That's a poor reason. The reason why anything becomes a BL from a UU is when it overpowers the tier before it, where Glaceon does not do for reasons Fishin suggested.
That's honestly similar to saying that Hariyama has more attack than people of his same HP level, therefore he deserves to be another tier up; which last I checked, is an INCREDIBLY stupid reason.
Yeah, come to think of it, he probably wouldn't even get to reap the benefits of hail before getting KO'd.
Aw come on...he's got 60 in each defense and 50 Spd. Glaceon has a better chance than that.
But on another note, does Cradily serve better as a UU annoyer or with a Swords Dance set?
Muhed said:
Aw come on...he's got 60 in each defense and 50 Spd. Glaceon has a better chance than that.
But on another note, does Cradily serve better as a UU annoyer or with a Swords Dance set?
No, your point was that it had better defenses than Pokemon that had the same SAtk as it - that was, as your main reason to ping it up. Your point is only half right; Heatran, Magnezone, and to an extent Latios are more durable than it and serve a much, much greater purpose. Espeon and Gengar serve much larger purposes, where if I were comparing 125 and 135 with Glaceon, I'd expect the same thing; they serve larger purposes, yet Glaceon this time would only have higher defenses than 30-40% of them.
My point was comparing it to saying that Hariyama should be pinged up because its Attack score was higher than every Pokemon with a same/similar HP score as it. In fact, I'm bringing similar into this due to there only being three Pokemon with 150 HP (as opposed to about 6 or 7 with 130 SAtk), so I'll bring the nearest bases - if not, the entire range that's 120-255.
What do I deduct? The only Pokemon that contradict Hariyama having higher attack are Slaking and Arceus, in which case Slaking attacks every other turn, and Arceus has exactly the same base.
Does Hariyama deserve to go up because similar his attack beats that of similar HP scores? If not, neither does Glaceon.
Exactly. That's how tiers work, after all.
Haha, dammit. Oh well, I guess that's why I got Porygon-Z
Glaceon sets a good example for this thread. It's one of those pokemon that can be powerful in standard and yet is not too powerful for UU. There are two reasons for this, really: 1) There are more thick fat pokemon and ice resists in common use in UU; 2) Glaceon is only really able to be a top tier pokemon because of Abomasnow (the same could be said for Walrein too).
Specs Ice Beam does a lot of damage to anything it hits neutrally, but specs Blizzard obliterates even stuff that resists it. Add evasion in hail to the fact you don't need to worry about much speed so you can add to the low HP, and you have a very resilient pokemon that can 1-2HKO nearly anything and take a hit or two in the process. Of course, without a reliable source of hail, that limited movepool really begins to hurt you. I think in UU you'd be seeing Ice Beam/Shadow Ball(or HP Fighting)/Wish with one of Protect/Yawn/Fake Tears/Roar and maybe even Mirror Coat now and then. I'm not sure exactly how well this would work in UU, but at least with Shadow Ball or HP Fighting you can do something to the common pokes there that wall your Ice Beam. Seriously though, I would use Glaceon in standard before I would use it in UU.
By the way, I keep seeing Lapras mentioned as a UU staple but I've yet to see anyone address the arguments that he's now quite a bit more dangerous. He's a real DD threat with huge hard to break subs to help set up, and now with Waterfall being a STABed physical attack he can really sweep through stuff using the water/normal attack combination (which hits everything in UU at least neutrally) after getting off some DDs. Not to mention Water hits a lot of the UU physical walls super effectively and Lapras is often a special attacker threatening boltbeam...
Specs Ice Beam does a lot of damage to anything it hits neutrally, but specs Blizzard obliterates even stuff that resists it. Add evasion in hail to the fact you don't need to worry about much speed so you can add to the low HP, and you have a very resilient pokemon that can 1-2HKO nearly anything and take a hit or two in the process. Of course, without a reliable source of hail, that limited movepool really begins to hurt you. I think in UU you'd be seeing Ice Beam/Shadow Ball(or HP Fighting)/Wish with one of Protect/Yawn/Fake Tears/Roar and maybe even Mirror Coat now and then. I'm not sure exactly how well this would work in UU, but at least with Shadow Ball or HP Fighting you can do something to the common pokes there that wall your Ice Beam. Seriously though, I would use Glaceon in standard before I would use it in UU.
By the way, I keep seeing Lapras mentioned as a UU staple but I've yet to see anyone address the arguments that he's now quite a bit more dangerous. He's a real DD threat with huge hard to break subs to help set up, and now with Waterfall being a STABed physical attack he can really sweep through stuff using the water/normal attack combination (which hits everything in UU at least neutrally) after getting off some DDs. Not to mention Water hits a lot of the UU physical walls super effectively and Lapras is often a special attacker threatening boltbeam...
First of all, 65* base speed. Much more effective, that's a fairly standard (though slightly slow-ish, Blastoise is 79) base speed for UU. It won't outspeed a LOT of stuff but it's still faster than a bunch, too.
Also I'm getting slightly annoyed that people are ignoring Thunder Wave as a valid strategy. Sure it requires you to use a Life Orb/Expert Belt to do significant damage, but coupled with the varied movepool and the chance of parahax you don't really need to be worrying as badly about getting hit. Also, what ground type (save Flygon, but even then that's iffy due to Ice beam) would switch in on Octillery?
Also, if your opponent switches to something that's threatening but you don't want to switch, you could cripple it (assuming you survived... but that's a different story). My final point is that Octazooka's chance of reducing accuracy (ignoring the iffy hit/acc. reduce rate) combined with Thunder Wave can be rather annoying.
Overall I want to say that Thunder Wave can really help out and I don't think it should be ignored, it's one of the main reasons I propose Octillery be BL. Of course if it's BL then you can use Ninjask anyways, but that's up to the player.
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