DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Mood4food77]

jolteon isn't used much

there's really no difference between BL and OU, just OU are used more


i just wanna know, what makes milktank BL.....

 

[Dragontamer]

Theres a difference being you'd still have at the very least a 1% chance of pulling through when Gyarados gets going through sheer bulky tanks who can still hit back when setup correctly.

With Shedinja when its pulled out correctly you literally have 0% chance of victory, its just unique like that. Like it matters if you can or can't OHKO when your opponent literally has no chance of hurting you. You could have the most brutal Electivire, Azumarill etc. remaining and all of them would be rendered useless.

And of course it doesn't matter if you can or can't OHKO your opponent when you pretty much OHKO them and have some pretty nice defenses to take the hits necessary to win.

I'd say Shedinja deserves testing. There are a few decent spinner-blockers like Frosslass, and a Shedinja team still has to be built around clearing the way for Shedinja. Its not like there is a single wall that can stop fire / rock / ghost / dark / flying all at once.

Not to mention, rock is a very useful attack regardless, and I can see everyone at least having one rock attack.

The WoW thing is heavily in favor towards banning Shedinja however. But I still think it deserves to be tested.

 

[Slickee]

The WoW thing is heavily in favor towards banning Shedinja however. But I still think it deserves to be tested.

eh, WoW can be absorbed by Ninetales/Rapidash, and special attackers don't fear it as much. It's accuracy can be an issue too. I doubt it's that much of a big deal..

 

[Trust]

It's really fragile, but with a good Rapid spiner (Claydol, Donphan, Starmie, etc.), a good Sunny Day or Rain Dance (Moltres, Kabutops, Exegutor, etc.), and good resistances to Fire (Heatran, Ninetales, Houndoom), Rock (Bronzong, Donphan, Claydol), Ghost (Heatran, Blissey), Flying (Heatran, Bronzong, etc.) and Dark (Heatran, Umbreon, etc.)... Heatran covers 4 of his 5 weakness, and the other is neutral (Rock), absorbs toxics and Wow, and put the sunny day up. Claydol stands rock attacks, and have Rapid Spin. The main problem are Pursuiters and Tyranitar/Abomasnow/Hippowdon.

 

[cim]

Shedinja is tough. It's good enough to prepare for in OU, but is it too powerful for UU?

 

[cim]

jolteon isn't used much

there's really no difference between BL and OU, just OU are used more


i just wanna know, what makes milktank BL.....

Try using it a few times, it's a decent physical wall much like Blissey. It's held back by it's Fighting weakness, but I think it's a bit much for UU.

 

[Dragontamer]

It's really fragile, but with a good Rapid spiner (Claydol, Donphan, Starmie, etc.), a good Sunny Day or Rain Dance (Moltres, Kabutops, Exegutor, etc.), and good resistances to Fire (Heatran, Ninetales, Houndoom), Rock (Bronzong, Donphan, Claydol), Ghost (Heatran, Blissey), Flying (Heatran, Bronzong, etc.) and Dark (Heatran, Umbreon, etc.)... Heatran covers 4 of his 5 weakness, and the other is neutral (Rock), absorbs toxics and Wow, and put the sunny day up. Claydol stands rock attacks, and have Rapid Spin. The main problem are Pursuiters and Tyranitar/Abomasnow/Hippowdon.

While you make good points, none of them really pertain to this thread, nor about Shedinja's placement in UU vs BL, except maybe Claydol who was debatable UU a while ago (has the argument settled him in BL?)

Remember, OU and BL pokemon do not exist in UU, so they cannot be used in an argument about UU vs BL. There are a few pokemon who made it to UU simply because other pokemon have been banned to BL/OU. IE: Abomasnow and Snover were banned to BL... but if they were allowed many people would agree that Walrein would be too strong for UU. But without infinite hail support, one of Walrein's sets is much less useful, meaning he is UU worthy without the support of some BL pokemon.

So if Shedinja requires (say) heatran to be effective, nothing is stopping him from being UU. A more appropriate argument would be noting Aggron or (maybe) Steelix's usefulness when paired with Shedinja.

 

[Pneuma]

I'd say that Shedinja serves the same purpose in all tiers and that's the reason he's used in ubers occasionally and OU even though he has the UU stats.

 

[seds]

Miltank? too good for UU?
i t does sorta have recovery and great HP/defense but it isnt much better than anything in UU,gastrodon is similar, but better in HP, special attack, attack, and special defense. Tentacruel is pretty bulky too. Vileplume also is fairly tough, has a recovery, and can bite back. there are equaql/better tanks and walls in UU, and most of them look cooler as well.

 

[Forsety]

Claydol who was debatable UU a while ago (has the argument settled him in BL?)

Hardly. Claydol was the top call for UU along with Cloyster.

 

[Fishin]

Miltank? too good for UU?
i t does sorta have recovery and great HP/defense but it isnt much better than anything in UU,gastrodon is similar, but better in HP, special attack, attack, and special defense. Tentacruel is pretty bulky too. Vileplume also is fairly tough, has a recovery, and can bite back. there are equaql/better tanks and walls in UU, and most of them look cooler as well.

Actually, on the physical defense tiers list, Miltank is ranked at 118, while Gastrodon and Vileplume are 115, and Tentacruel is 113. Quagsire is also on 118, but unlike Miltank it lacks a reliable recovery move.

Hardly. Claydol was the top call for UU along with Cloyster.

The only real way I can see Claydol unbalancing UU is that it would pretty much be the absolute best choice for a spinner. It doesn't have reliable recovery, but it's defensive stats are quite good for UU and it actually serves as a pretty decent Hitmonlee counter. Deserves testing IMO.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

i just wanna know, what makes milktank BL.....

Me too, and I'm glad somebody else has finally brought her up again for discussion as maybe this time we can get a convincing argument for it being there.

The last time she was discussed (page 15 btw), Forsety gave three main reasons as to why it was BL, but none of them completely convinced me and I'll explain why. They were something like this:

1. She is very well-rounded and versatile, much more so than Kangaskhan.

This is most certainly true, her stat distribution alongside her movepool does make her able to perform a range of tasks with no glaring weakness, however I fail to see why that makes her too good for UU. She makes a decent physical wall with 95/105 HP/Defense and recovery, but with a lack of good physical resists (Fire, Ghost and Ice are mostly special) she is far from unbeatable and certainly no Cresselia in that department, whereas Curse works decently with her but makes her slow and vulnerable to any number of strong special attacks from anything with half-decent speed. The inclusion of Choice Specs and Life Orb this gen has really nerfed her ability to stick around for long periods during a battle.

2. She makes a great Cleric.

I agree, she does, but so does Meganium for example, who granted has more weaknesses but more balanced defenses and better resists to make up for it. In fact it is probably better for times when for whatever reason you have a Soundproof Pokemon on your team. Anyways, my point is is that I don't see why being able to Cleric makes you unbalancing in UU. Why do we want to remove status healing in UU? In my opinion, having a wider selection of Clerics in UU would serve to make UU more balanced, as it would help stop potential double status Pokemon such as Ninetales and Butterfree from crippling a huge chunk of your team early on permanently, or perhaps Dunsparce flinchax, you never know.

3. Miltank can fit into just about any team and not be at any immediate disadvantage, which sounds like OU to me.

Again, I couldn't agree more about the first part, she can fill many holes in a lot of teams with her versatility. However, why does that make her too powerful for UU. I've already mentioned her well-roundedness, but if you ask me, in terms of raw power in UU (which is what this discussion is really about), she is a little too well-balanced for her own good. For all the things that she can do, with the possible exception of Cleric, there is at least one other Pokemon in UU that can do it better. It may well be able to fit into any team without major disadvantage, however, I'd like to see or hear one example in which its inclusion in a team would give that player an unfair advantage against the opponent.

I must admit, if Miltank were UU it would probably be used A LOT, but that wouldn't mean a thing as far as its tier placement is concerned ( after all, Blissey is used on nearly every team in OU, but its not Uber, and never will). What is important is whether it would overcentralize the metagame or not. If it would then by all means keep it in BL, as long as the reasons are well justified.

Sorry for the long post, I just feel quite strongly about this matter.

 

[Deck Knight]

Me too, and I'm glad somebody else has finally brought her up again for discussion as maybe this time we can get a convincing argument for it being there.

The last time she was discussed (page 15 btw), Forsety gave three main reasons as to why it was BL, but none of them completely convinced me and I'll explain why. They were something like this:

1. She is very well-rounded and versatile, much more so than Kangaskhan.

This is most certainly true, her stat distribution alongside her movepool does make her able to perform a range of tasks with no glaring weakness, however I fail to see why that makes her too good for UU. She makes a decent physical wall with 95/105 HP/Defense and recovery, but with a lack of good physical resists (Fire, Ghost and Ice are mostly special) she is far from unbeatable and certainly no Cresselia in that department, whereas Curse works decently with her but makes her slow and vulnerable to any number of strong special attacks from anything with half-decent speed. The inclusion of Choice Specs and Life Orb this gen has really nerfed her ability to stick around for long periods during a battle.

Anything with half-decent speed risks getting paralyzed by either a STAB Body Slam or Thunder Wave. Cresselia's walliness is irrelevant because Miltank will be walling things like Sandslash and Flareon, not Garchomp. One full para and Miltank is back up above 60% health, and near impossible to take down for anything without a STAB fighting attack.

2. She makes a great Cleric.

I agree, she does, but so does Meganium for example, who granted has more weaknesses but more balanced defenses and better resists to make up for it. In fact it is probably better for times when for whatever reason you have a Soundproof Pokemon on your team. Anyways, my point is is that I don't see why being able to Cleric makes you unbalancing in UU. Why do we want to remove status healing in UU? In my opinion, having a wider selection of Clerics in UU would serve to make UU more balanced, as it would help stop potential double status Pokemon such as Ninetales and Butterfree from crippling a huge chunk of your team early on permanently, or perhaps Dunsparce flinchax, you never know.

80/100/100 with Fire/Poison/Flying/Ice/Bug weak < 95/105/70 with Fighting weak. Half of UU can smack Meganium around, the only thing that keeps it around is that it easily takes UnSTABBed SE attacks, but any STAB attack basically forces it to switch out. Whereas, Miltank's weakness is mostly physical and fire and ice are good resistances. Miltank also has a reliable recovery move with twice Synthesis' PP and Fire, Ice, and Ghost are good resistances to have. Meganium resists Ground, Water, and Electric, which are good enough to switch in on, but Meganium cannot do it indefinetely. Meganium does have the Screens to recommend it though.

3. Miltank can fit into just about any team and not be at any immediate disadvantage, which sounds like OU to me.

Again, I couldn't agree more about the first part, she can fill many holes in a lot of teams with her versatility. However, why does that make her too powerful for UU. I've already mentioned her well-roundedness, but if you ask me, in terms of raw power in UU (which is what this discussion is really about), she is a little too well-balanced for her own good. For all the things that she can do, with the possible exception of Cleric, there is at least one other Pokemon in UU that can do it better. It may well be able to fit into any team without major disadvantage, however, I'd like to see or hear one example in which its inclusion in a team would give that player an unfair advantage against the opponent.

Getting kicked out of UU isn't on the sole basis that you can OHKO everything like Rampardos and Garchomp. Steelix was kicked out in Advance because you couldn't kill it without extensive effort, and it easily supplanted most of the Normal/Flying resists. It took laughable damage from even CB HP Ground and Fighting.

Name me a single pokemon in UU that makes a better cleric than Miltank. Meganium was just discussed above, and is clearly inferior because of all its weakneses and lack of diversity. Lickitung is pathetic compared to Miltank. Vileplume's problems are similar to Meganium's only it is worse off as far as base defenses and has no EQ resist. Granbull is what I used in ADV, but only because Miltank was in BL. Chimecho I used in NU, because Delcatty was and still is crap. This leaves Altaria, who now has more options with a viable Dragon Dance set. Either way, Altaria still has an easily exploitable 4x weakness, and no way to status outside Dragonbreath.

I must admit, if Miltank were UU it would probably be used A LOT, but that wouldn't mean a thing as far as its tier placement is concerned ( after all, Blissey is used on nearly every team in OU, but its not Uber, and never will). What is important is whether it would overcentralize the metagame or not. If it would then by all means keep it in BL, as long as the reasons are well justified.

Sorry for the long post, I just feel quite strongly about this matter.

I feel strongly that Miltank is generally unkilliable without specialized counters once you take out the fighting types. It can paralyze faster attackers, is a cleric on par in ability with Blissey, and is the only pokemon that has a reliable healing move, Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, and reliable damging attacks (Body Slam, Seismic Toss). About the only pokemon that completely counters Miltank is Limber Hitmonlee, and he gets 3HKO'd by Seismic Toss and won't like Body Slam at all either. Combine Miltank with Froslass, Rotom, or Banette, and rest assured you can deal with banded fighters.

 

[Bourbon]

Between Heal Bell, Milk Drink, and Curse, you are left with one attacking move. If you go Scrappy, you lose two resists, but if you don't, a ghost (like banette, drifblim, misdreavus) can come in and destroy Miltank. Worse still, if you go for Thunder Wave, you lose Curse, but I guess you could Siesmic Toss...

Point being is, Miltank has 4 move slots, two of them taken up by cleric duties. It also has only 1 immunity. I think that Meganium and Chimecho are about as good as it as far as clerics are concerned. But, if you guys insist on BL for miltank, thats your choice. I personally don't think it's good enough for BL.

EDIT: Chimecho isn't as bad as I thought. I use one, but it's stats aren't as bad as people think.

It has 65/70/80 HP/DEF/SP.DEF so it isn't exactly invincible. But it has a great ability, and it gets Wish, Healing Wish, and Recover, as well as screens and heal bell.

I've used chimecho multiple times to get my Crawdaunt in for a late game sweep. Basically, I come in on a ground move, or a weak attack and set up Light Screen. Then, since chimecho is slow, he uses Healing Wish, and brings a 100% healthy Crawdaunt in for a second wave. It worked quite well when I tried it: 8 turns of light screen can really turn the tide.

I don;t know much about Meganium, but if Miltank is banished, Chimecho or Vileplume can make decent clerics

 

[Mood4food77]

milktank is incredibly fast for a cow

i mean...it has 100 base speed, so it outspeeds a lot of things

and maybe it's versatility helps too

but i never understood milktank...it's a freaking cow

 

[Bourbon]

LOL, 328 SPD? Ok, thats wierd : O

 

[Mood4food77]

it definitely doesn't look like it should have that much

 

[Deck Knight]

Between Heal Bell, Milk Drink, and Curse, you are left with one attacking move. If you go Scrappy, you lose two resists, but if you don't, a ghost (like banette, drifblim, misdreavus) can come in and destroy Miltank. Worse still, if you go for Thunder Wave, you lose Curse, but I guess you could Siesmic Toss...

Point being is, Miltank has 4 move slots, two of them taken up by cleric duties. It also has only 1 immunity. I think that Meganium and Chimecho are about as good as it as far as clerics are concerned. But, if you guys insist on BL for miltank, thats your choice. I personally don't think it's good enough for BL.

EDIT: Chimecho isn't as bad as I thought. I use one, but it's stats aren't as bad as people think.

It has 65/70/80 HP/DEF/SP.DEF so it isn't exactly invincible. But it has a great ability, and it gets Wish, Healing Wish, and Recover, as well as screens and heal bell.

I've used chimecho multiple times to get my Crawdaunt in for a late game sweep. Basically, I come in on a ground move, or a weak attack and set up Light Screen. Then, since chimecho is slow, he uses Healing Wish, and brings a 100% healthy Crawdaunt in for a second wave. It worked quite well when I tried it: 8 turns of light screen can really turn the tide.

I don;t know much about Meganium, but if Miltank is banished, Chimecho or Vileplume can make decent clerics

LOL, Curse is a horrible option for clerical Miltank. The standard Cleric set would likely be along the lines of Heal Bell, Milk Drink, Body Slam/Thunder Wave and Seismic Toss. If you want a Curse set you'll forfeit Miltank's Cleric status and give it Body Slam/EQ/Curse/Milk Drink. You could use Curse in the Cleric set, but you'd basically either have to give up fire and ice resistance to hit ghosts or be walled by them.

 

[Bourbon]

Sorry, I didnt know the typical Miltank set ._.

 

[teekay]

Miltank was borderline back in advance, wasn't it? I would think it still would be. It's fast and has surprisingly good stats overall.

 

[Dragontamer]

In UU, doesn't Miltank have complete coverage with Scrappy Return + Earthquake?

Return hits everything but rocks, steels, and ghosts. Scrappy cures ghost problem, and Earthquake clears out all rocks / steels except lunatone / Solrock.

It may not have much as to raw attacking stats, but it has two perfect accuracy 100+ base attack moves (return and earthquake) to exploit that provide nearly complete coverage.

Just wanna point out something. Adamant Weavile's Ice Punch scores a 109.00 Attack tier, but most will run Jolly of course. Miltank's speed is strong enough to run Adamant in UU, however her Attack tier with Return is 110.39, .39 tiers higher than weavile's Ice Punch.

If you wanna know how this works out, it is quite simple. Miltank's max attack is 284, while weavile's is 372. That is, Weavile has 30% more raw attack power than Miltank.

On the other hand... Return's attack power is 102, compared with Ice punch, Return is 36% more powerful. Granted, Ice is a hell of a lot more useful in OU, but Return should be more than enough in UU. Nonetheless, this does indeed show that Weavile's crappy base power (Ice Punch's crappy 75 bp vs Return's 100 bp) makes it statistically weaker than Miltank.

Just some food for thought. I think Miltank can run a choice band set and do well, especially with 100 base speed in UU, with her extremely useful cleric ability. Quite versatile indeed.

 

[Arash]

nobody in their right mind would use 252 EVs and a speed boost nature for a blissey wannabe

 

[Dragontamer]

Fine, damage calculations if you didn't seem to get the point.

Choice Band Return Miltank vs 252/252 Impish Swampert
38.37% - 45.05%

Choice Band Ice Punch Weavile vs 252/252 Impish Swampert
36.88% - 43.32%

As said earlier, Miltank's return is stronger than Weavile's Ice Punch. Qute the tank indeed. Takes physical hits at the 118 physical defense tier, so in physical defenses it beats my Walrein and almost ties Gliscor, while special hits are taken at tier 115, where Spiritomb is.

Granted, it can't do both an extremely defensive spread + pure offense spread at the same time, but it can do either one pretty well. With instant recovery and cleric abilities, it makes a fine physical wall. On the other hand, two 100 bp attacks with nearly complete coverage and base speed above Lucario and Electivire makes it a fine sweeper as well.

If you guys really want to test Miltank... go on ahead. But I'm for banning Miltank from UU.

 

[Deck Knight]

In UU, doesn't Miltank have complete coverage with Scrappy Return + Earthquake?

Return hits everything but rocks, steels, and ghosts. Scrappy cures ghost problem, and Earthquake clears out all rocks / steels except lunatone / Solrock.

It may not have much as to raw attacking stats, but it has two perfect accuracy 100+ base attack moves (return and earthquake) to exploit that provide nearly complete coverage.

Just wanna point out something. Adamant Weavile's Ice Punch scores a 109.00 Attack tier, but most will run Jolly of course. Miltank's speed is strong enough to run Adamant in UU, however her Attack tier with Return is 110.39, .39 tiers higher than weavile's Ice Punch.

If you wanna know how this works out, it is quite simple. Miltank's max attack is 284, while weavile's is 372. That is, Weavile has 30% more raw attack power than Miltank.

On the other hand... Return's attack power is 102, compared with Ice punch, Return is 36% more powerful. Granted, Ice is a hell of a lot more useful in OU, but Return should be more than enough in UU. Nonetheless, this does indeed show that Weavile's crappy base power (Ice Punch's crappy 75 bp vs Return's 100 bp) makes it statistically weaker than Miltank.

Just some food for thought. I think Miltank can run a choice band set and do well, especially with 100 base speed in UU, with her extremely useful cleric ability. Quite versatile indeed.

Kangaskhan does the choice set a little better, its 105/80/80 stats make it about the same defensively, it has more attack at 95, and at 90 Speed the difference is negligible. Kangaskhan also has Scrappy and even if you don't use it and opt for Early Bird, it has Crunch and Sucker Punch

There's really no need to waste Miltank's reliable recovery potential by giving it a set a contemporary pulls off just as well. Kangaskhan has in addition to all Miltank possesses: Crunch, Outrage, Sucker Punch, Drain Punch, and Avalanche. Milty has Zen Headbutt, but even when SE it barely outranks Return and has imperfect accuracy.

The Krazy Kangaroo makes a viable substitute for a CB Miltank and arguably does the job better.

 

[teekay]

That doesn't really impact whether it deserves to be in UU though. If CB Miltank is too strong for it, it's too strong, whether Kangaskhan is more so or not.