DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Pagz]

These are most likely uneducated views, but what I think nonetheless.

The thing with most of the BL's that are being dropped down to UU is that to be OP offencive they need to set up, just like scyther.

-Claydol (Very Strong)- UU can use some rapid spinners. Type also doesn't help much with pincer and scyther running around
-Cloyster (Very Strong)- Strong defences, however its ice weakness and its water type weakness being amplified with its poor special defense, its nothing too strong for UU
-Torterra (High)-I'm not sure about this, personally I'd say no, mainly because I dont have enough experience with it, and that ice doesnt show up much in OU. However its weak to bug like Claydol, so I dont know...
-Steelix (High)- How can you leave Mantine all alone without Steelix? He'll be ever so lonely (and not just in nature!).
-Drapion (High) hmmm... seems a little versatile... he can fit a lot of nitches in teams that need that type of attacks... I'd say yes, but needs testing.
-Shedinja (Medium - high) I dont see why he shouldnt, I mean, he'd do exactly the same he would in every other tier, piss anyone off who isn't prepared. I'd say put him in.
-Regigigas (Weak) with parafusionflinchhax, it gives the opponent about 26.67% to attack, then it can go all crazy like, however not at all overpowered. I'd say no because of its massive base stats but... theres nothing here that any other pokemon couldnt stat up and mow over. He has a very wide movepool though, with knock off/thunderwave/confuse ray/all punches/whatever support you really need. He'd be used a bit, but not whored to a point where everyone has one, at least he'd get some use here!
-Houndoom (Very Weak)-yeah no
-Miltank (Very Weak) nope
-Flygon (Very Weak) nope

Empoleon should be bummed down, he can be the UU Floatzel. He has quite a few crucial weaknesses so his stats wont scare all the UU pokes, and water/steel isn't the ZOMG attacking duo. I'm sure he wouldnt be more overpowered in UU then Cloyster would. Choicespecs Hydropump would hurt, but anything that resists water can switch in and it do

Swellow really is a one trick pony. If you see a swellow, you pretty much know its running Facade, which dingles your switch to steel type bells. With such predictability, I see no problem putting it in UU.

Hitmonlee has a basic movepool, it doesnt really change from Hitmonlee to Hitmonlee. Having a fighting type that has a high special defence/thunderwave resist is always nice too. I dont see why he shouldn't be in UU.

I'm kind of 50/50 with Pikachu, what was the final swing to put him in UU? Also whats the argument for not allowing Gligar in UU?

It seems like this is all coming together, awesome.

 

[X-Act]

How can you say to move Empoleon down to UU when it is one of the best Choice Specs Salamence counters in OU? And for those of you who say that many things outspeed him, have you forgotten about Agility and 111 base SpAtk? And what about Grass Knot allowing him to beat his fellow bulky waters? Water/Steel resists many weird and wonderful things, too. I wouldn't shoot down Empoleon that quickly.

 

[Cyl3x]

How can you say to move Empoleon down to UU when it is one of the best Choice Specs Salamence counters in OU? And for those of you who say that many things outspeed him, have you forgotten about Agility and 111 base SpAtk? And what about Grass Knot allowing him to beat his fellow bulky waters? Water/Steel resists many weird and wonderful things, too. I wouldn't shoot down Empoleon that quickly.

Agreed. He's BL at least. He has a so-so movepool and can come in on anything that it resists or is immune to. It also has a sandstorm immunity, I guess. Resistance to Stealth rock and immunity to Toxic Spikes make it durable I guess. Next to blissey, he takes those Draco meteors like a champ. Like, about 30-40% damage assuming max SAtk on Mence and Max HP and SDef on Empoleon.

 

[Rodger]

Since its UU Empoleon is being considered for right now, its Sandstorm immunity or its ability to take Draco Meteor's is hardly a consideration. Only thing that might fire off a Draco Meteor in UU is Altaria, and there's no UU sandstreamers.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Fishin, on page 2-3, Swellow was discussed (mostly be me), and it was generally agreed that he is UU. I guess if DragonTamers feels strongly enough about it, we could discuss it again. However, I feel that Swellow can only perform well against an opponent that doesn't have any Rock or Steel types, which is why we occassionally see these Swellow sweeps against OU opponents who use Weezing/Gliscor as physical walls.

However in UU, there are Rocks and Steel types everywhere...Golem, Aggron, Sudowoodo, Omastar, Probopass and maybe Steelix and Empoleon too. He's a lot better in OU than he is in UU, strangely enough.

Yeah, the problem with Swellow is that it only has one Hidden Power to work with, yet needs two, Grass and Fighting, in order to deal with most of its counters in UU. With HP Fighting it can 2HKO Aggron, but is left walled by just about everything else. Even Probopass/Bastiodon take lol damage with their enormous Special Defense. With Grass on the other hand, it can deal with a larger number of potential counters including Golem, Omastar and Relicanth, but is now walled by every Steel out there. Plus all this talk of moving down Steelix and Empoleon can only be worse for Swellow. I see no problem keeping it in UU.

Also whats the argument for not allowing Gligar in UU?

Mostly the fact that it is an NFE that isn't distinct from its evo, but that isn't for discussion in this thread. There's also the fact that it makes a great BPer with the ability to hit hard and fast at the same time, but there are still plenty of ways to deal with it, especially if Claydol gets brought down to UU.

How can you say to move Empoleon down to UU when it is one of the best Choice Specs Salamence counters in OU?

That argument has no validity in this discussion. How well a Pokemon can perform in higher tiers doesn't mean a jot if it isn't overpowering UU. However, in this case there is plenty to suggest that Empoleon would. I use Empoleon a lot in OU and could go on for ages about its usefulness, but UU is a different ball game altogether, and I have not yet played UU long enough to say how it would fare there. All I will say is I would be delighted if it were allowed in UU as it is one of my favourite Pokemon, as well as Uxie, but I wouldn't hold my breath in either case.

 

[ODDish]

Don't suppose there's any chance of considering Leafeon, for UU testing?

Like Scyther its a fairly fast SD BPer, but unlike Scyther has a pretty rubbish movepool, and so is walled more easily.

 

[blue jolteon]

These are most likely uneducated views, but what I think nonetheless.

The thing with most of the BL's that are being dropped down to UU is that to be OP offencive they need to set up, just like scyther.

-Cloyster (Very Strong)- Strong defences,
however its ice weakness and its water type weakness being amplified with its poor special defense, its nothing too strong for UU

just one thing i noticed, isn't cloyste a water/ice pokémon? if so, should the bit i bolded be where claydol is?

 

[Lee]

Fair point, Shiny Oddish. I can't sit here and support Scyther whilst condemning Leafeon, who could be considered an inferior Scyther in most respects. The godly defence is undermined slightly by the low HP stat and poor defensive typing. It's very difficult to assess if a fast BP'er can be countered or not, because most counters will be met by a swift Baton Pass.

Unlike Scyther though, Leafeon has Roar to use as a psuedo Taunt off that 95 base speed making phazing him difficult. But Scyther has a generally better movepool (most notably Brick Break).

Leafeon also works as a good Golem counter which UU really needs. Seriously, I've been using Adamant Golem with Life Orb recently in UU with Rock Polish/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Explosion. After the Rock Polish he's at 378 speed, and not a great deal of Pokemon can survive those awesome dual STABS coming from 350 attack. The few that can survive get obliterated by Explosion.

So yeah, I think Leafeon deserves testing.

 

[Fenikkusu]

just one thing i noticed, isn't cloyste a water/ice pokémon? if so, should the bit i bolded be where claydol is?

Pretty sure they meant the weaknesses that are inherent in ice/water types.

 

[Dragontamer]

Fair point, Shiny Oddish. I can't sit here and support Scyther whilst condemning Leafeon, who could be considered an inferior Scyther in most respects. The godly defence is undermined slightly by the low HP stat and poor defensive typing. It's very difficult to assess if a fast BP'er can be countered or not, because most counters will be met by a swift Baton Pass.

Unlike Scyther though, Leafeon has Roar to use as a psuedo Taunt off that 95 base speed making phazing him difficult. But Scyther has a generally better movepool (most notably Brick Break).

Leafeon also works as a good Golem counter which UU really needs. Seriously, I've been using Adamant Golem with Life Orb recently in UU with Rock Polish/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Explosion. After the Rock Polish he's at 378 speed, and not a great deal of Pokemon can survive those awesome dual STABS coming from 350 attack. The few that can survive get obliterated by Explosion.

So yeah, I think Leafeon deserves testing.

Leafeon has a higher Physical defense tier than Walrein, is only .3 defense tiers away from Gliscor, as well as boasting the support movepool of Yawn, Wish, Roar and Baton Pass.

He isn't like Scyther at all. Leafeon is purely a team player, while Scyther will be the sweeper who can baton pass (like Blaziken or Ambipom)

I'm open for Leafeon in testing however. As with Swellow. Swellow is going to be those strange pokemon who works very well in OU but most likely won't be very good in UU... kinda like how Shedinja is much better in Ubers than in OU.

At this rate, we'll have to add a note that UU does not necessarily mean weaker either :-/ There are quite a few niche UU pokemon now that work better than any other OU pokemon... (Tentacruel for example)

 

[Lee]

Yeah you're right, they fill different roles but the comparisons can still be made. Both fast, both have 110 attack, both Baton pass, both...um...green? Shiny Oddish is currently testing it on Shoddy and we'll see how it goes.

Also, I've had about 5 UU battles today, and CBHitmonlee just urinates on everything so we shouldn't be so hasty to close the book on him.

 

[Pagz]

Pretty sure they meant the weaknesses that are inherent in ice/water types.

Yea... sorry about that, I meant the weaknesses Ice have, whislt that waters weakness arnt resisted by Ice and his special defence is very soso.

Just because Empoleon is a good specsmence counter, dose not mean he cant still be used for that just because he's now UU. Grassknot for "bulky waters", however lighter water types, like Lanturn, would shut down Empoleon. Even in OU, Nasty plot infernape does less then 20% with grassknot against Lanturn. Many UU's have specific counters for OU pokemon, however that doesnt mean they should be moved up. Sure, Choicespecs Empoleon Hydropump hurts, but so does choiceband headsmash relicanth. And we all know that even though Steel/water resists a lot, it only takes a solid fighting, ground or electric move to ruin Empoleons day.

 

[Forsety]

Don't suppose there's any chance of considering Leafeon, for UU testing?

Like Scyther its a fairly fast SD BPer, but unlike Scyther has a pretty rubbish movepool, and so is walled more easily.

I'm not too sure about that, in general Leaf Blade is one hell of a STAB move to have and 130 defense isn't quite like say Glaceon's 110, its definitely quite abit more.

In terms of raw power, its one hell of a fast, strong BP'er that even learns a recovery move. (Wish passing still lives folks!) I think one impressive thing I note alot in other Leafeon discussions is its stats. It can very easily reach a quadruple 300 HP, Atk, Def and Spd w/Jolly with plenty of EV's to spare. Theres nothing terribly special about the number itself but its an extremely solid number to work off when you consider base 100's cannot reach it without a beneficial nature making it an extremely solid physical threat.

Being single type too is an advantage in itself when your typing is grass as it doesn't expose you to too many weakness and makes you better rounded.

You can attempt to test it but rest assured I'll be on that bandwagon to instantly use it for all its worth since it is the most reliable SD passer after Gliscor and Scizor.

who could be considered an inferior Scyther in most respects.

I would never call Leafeon an inferior Scyther ever. Only thing it comes close to being inferior is type coverage otherwise Leafeon is far more reliable with much longer term usuage.


Empolean I can see a good argument for it joining UU for a multitude of reasons. I use it extensively and the most potent version I've seen is Agility Sweeper which suffers from coverage but has Omastar like power. The more reliable version being defensive and with Sub generally has issues against alot of types (Ground/Fighting) and lack of moveslots to do all the utlity it wants to.

But main things being is that it can offer means of blocking alot of the potent special threats discussed already due to being the only Water/Steel in the entire game. Bringing it down to UU does nothing to the standard game who can still use it while opening up opportunities for UU.

And for those of you who say that many things outspeed him, have you forgotten about Agility and 111 base SpAtk? And what about Grass Knot allowing him to beat his fellow bulky waters?

Interesting that point actually because I found Agility Empolean isn't worth it without Petaya Berry, it tends to come short on almost everything bulky. Only way that'll ever happen is through Sub/Endure which in turn leads to moveslot syndrome and only having either Ice Beam or Grass Knot. GK tends to be the superior choice.

It can't make much of its defenses either in that variation either being the slow bugger it is it really does need all the speed it can get.


Swellow I have not too many problems except for one. Its speed, it allows it to reach another threshold even Scyther can't touch that means only priority attacks can touch it. On the other hand the most potent version is literally a ticking timebomb which will die to anything or even by itself. But it does lack versatility.

Empoleon should be bummed down, he can be the UU Floatzel.

How in gods name that works I will never understand.

Uxie - Is this really to powerful for UU?

Most of the super effective OU can barely even contend with Cresselia.

Let alone Cresselia Ver. 1.9 with more moves, higher defense, better speed, better attack, a sleep move and U-Turn. Only thing Uxie lacks is Moonlight and even then Uxie has Recycle or Sleep Talk.

In fact when you look at it Cresselia literally only has a few things over Uxie. Higher HP, Ice Beam, Lunar Dance and Moonlight.

 

[Bourbon]

SO wait: Gligar ISNT allowed in UU? It's been in UU for like 2 generations in a row. Personally, I think we should be able to use Yanma and Gligar and Tangela in UU, because even though they got evolutions, the original forms have remained unchanged. Allowing them in would'nt make it OU Lite, heck, OU is turning into UU heavy if you ask me. Now we have electabuzz, magmar, gligar, yanma, magneton, and tangela evolutions up there. All those pokes were UU or BL last gen.

 

[Chou Toshio]

SO wait: Gligar ISNT allowed in UU? It's been in UU for like 2 generations in a row. Personally, I think we should be able to use Yanma and Gligar and Tangela in UU, because even though they got evolutions, the original forms have remained unchanged. Allowing them in would'nt make it OU Lite, heck, OU is turning into UU heavy if you ask me. Now we have electabuzz, magmar, gligar, yanma, magneton, and tangela evolutions up there. All those pokes were UU or BL last gen.

When a player grows up a bit and enters Varsity, he doesn't keep playing in JV. :/

 

[Dragontamer]

Gligar is unknown (to me) right now. I didn't keep up with the NFE thread to really know what the decision was.

 

[ODDish]

Leafeon ... the story so far.

(2 UU/BL matches)

Well its not really done all that much to be honest ... erm, it walled Torterra well enough in one match, and was continually forced too switch out itself by Ninetales in another.

Oh an unboosted Leaf Blade failed to 1OHKO Kingler which I was quite surprised at to be honest ... anyone back to the grind.

 

[Dragontamer]

0/0 Leftovers Leafeon Leaf Blade vs 252/252 Impish Kingler:
45.22% - 53.18%

I can see it failing to 2-hit KO... but 10-hit KO? Either shoddy had a bug or metalkid's calc has a bug.

Or do you mean OHKO? In which case Kingler is only 1 defense tier lower than Weezing (who can survive Medicham Psycho Cuts).

 

[ODDish]

I meant OKHO ... sorry.

 

[Lee]

Leafeon ... the story so far.

(2 UU/BL matches)

Well its not really done all that much to be honest ... erm, it walled Torterra well enough in one match, and was continually forced too switch out itself by Ninetales in another.

Oh an unboosted Leaf Blade failed to 1OHKO Kingler which I was quite surprised at to be honest ... anyone back to the grind.

You seem to have missed our match! As I recall, Leafeon forced my Golem out after a Rock Polish (I decided it was too early to go BOOM), and was in turn forced out by Rapidash. Later on, I predicted he'd try to switch in on my Blastoise's Surf, so I Ice Beamed it on the switch, took the Leaf Blade for about 65% and killed it with a second Ice Beam. Of the two turns he was alive, you used Leaf Blade both turns. Your mentality should be to SD and BP, not kill things. He should only be running about 275 attack anyway, so don't expect to OHKO Kingler.

Also on the NFE debate, I think the general consensus is that only NFE's unique from their evolutions are permitted. Otherwise we end up with shit like Snover and Hippopotas so we have to reassess our tiers further etc. And lets face it...UU is for people who are bored/dissilusioned with OU. Nobody wants to leave behind Yanmega only to face a Protect/Hypnosis/Bug Buzz/Air Slash Yanma! That'll only drive people away from UU, which is not what we want atm.

 

[Sir Spanky]

Both Leafeon and Empoleon are far too good for UU imo.

In fact from that list Dragontamer posted, I don't think anything bar Shedinja and maybe Regigigas/Drapion should be UU from it. Apart from the three I mentioned, all are too strong methinks.

 

[Great Sage]

Let alone Cresselia Ver. 1.9 with more moves not necessarily, higher defense defenses are to be considered along with HP; Cresselia's 45 more base HP compensates for the 10 less base Defense, better speed kinda useless, really, better attack the only physical move Uxie will be using is U-Turn, which doesn't do too much to anything that isn't 4x weak, and it's only a 5 base difference, a sleep move and U-Turn. Only thing Uxie lacks is Moonlight and even then Uxie has Recycle or Sleep Talk.

In fact when you look at it Cresselia literally only has a few things over Uxie. Higher HP, Ice Beam which is a massive plus as far as the metagame is concerned, Lunar Dance and Moonlight.

 

[ODDish]

You seem to have missed our match! ... Of the two turns he was alive, you used Leaf Blade both turns. Your mentality should be to SD and BP, not kill things.

Didn't count it as that match featured an old team that had been built without Leafeon in mind ... there was nothing really to pass to, all the physical attackers were too slow to capitalise.

 

[Lee]

You used a Primeape though...that's fast enough to capitalise, but I assumed it was Choiced in some way.

Either way, Pokemon don't need speed to appreciate a +2 attack boost. As long as they come out on the right Pokemon, the opponent is gonna be losing something.

I don't know how conclusive your tests can be if you have no intention of using Leafeon to it's full potential (i.e Baton Passing).

 

[ODDish]

I don't know how conclusive your tests can be if you have no intention of using Leafeon to it's full potential (i.e Baton Passing).

So you've determined my intentions on the basis of one battle, where, as I said, the team was not designed with Leafeon in mind?