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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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Why don't we just debate the NFEs one at a time? Isn't that what the other thread said should happen?
I'm agreeing with Shiny Oddish. Basically, people play UU because:
a) They're bored/dissilusioned with OU or;
b) They just plain hate OU.
If we allow NFEs, then people are gonna leave OU only to be confronted by almost carbon copies of the OU's that they left behind. What was the point in making the transition?
UU needs to be a different metagame and stand on its own, rather than taking elements of OU and downsizing them. It's one of the reasons people are so opposed to Snover/Hippopotas - they'll simply encourage OU tactics in an environment that people play in to escape OU tactics.
a) They're bored/dissilusioned with OU or;
b) They just plain hate OU.
If we allow NFEs, then people are gonna leave OU only to be confronted by almost carbon copies of the OU's that they left behind. What was the point in making the transition?
UU needs to be a different metagame and stand on its own, rather than taking elements of OU and downsizing them. It's one of the reasons people are so opposed to Snover/Hippopotas - they'll simply encourage OU tactics in an environment that people play in to escape OU tactics.
Hmmmmmmmm. I simply think that Yanma, Electabuzz and Magmar should all be allowed because they've been UU all along. True, their evos have mixed up OU, but they don't change the UU experience.
Yanma has 70 special attack. Other than hypnosis, it won't do much. If you want to use it, fine. It's not going to overcnetralize the metagame at all. if it doesnt hurt to have it in, I'm fine with it. All these NFEs have mediocre stats at best.
Another thing. You guys are saying how there are no more walls left to bring into UU, why don't you want Gligar and Tangela in there then? I could care less if Gliscor and Tangrowth are in OU... both UU and OU tiers need walls in em.
Yanma has 70 special attack. Other than hypnosis, it won't do much. If you want to use it, fine. It's not going to overcnetralize the metagame at all. if it doesnt hurt to have it in, I'm fine with it. All these NFEs have mediocre stats at best.
Another thing. You guys are saying how there are no more walls left to bring into UU, why don't you want Gligar and Tangela in there then? I could care less if Gliscor and Tangrowth are in OU... both UU and OU tiers need walls in em.
Actually I tried yanma once... currently I have Wailord instead.
I used Yanma against you, but you couldn't stop it. I felt it was boring and simple to use.
And for the record, once again, jsut because Yanmega, Electivire and friends are in OU now doesnt mean we shouldn't sue their prevos, who have been UU for like forvever.
I used Yanma against you, but you couldn't stop it. I felt it was boring and simple to use.
And for the record, once again, jsut because Yanmega, Electivire and friends are in OU now doesnt mean we shouldn't sue their prevos, who have been UU for like forvever.
Answer via paragraph:
-We're not in what was, we're in what is. And what is is a bunch of folks wanting to take a break from OU, including taking a break from seeing yanmega, gliscor and tangrowth. ugh
-Its strength is not the heart of the issue.
-We don't need to have anything in UU. We have what we like there, and what we ultimately want is a gaming experience that's truly different from OU.
I dont know if Gardevour is UU or BL... but it is in special defense tier 117. That means its as tough as garchomp and gastrodon on special defense. Swalot is in 116, so is whiscash. they can learn amnesia, so...
Believe it or not, relicanth has as much defense as registeel. There are plenty of tough walls in UU. OH BTW what tier is Exploud in? i have never even seen it discussed...
Most walls that can recover/moonlight ect are BL though. Gastrodon can get stockpile and recover.
Huntail and gorebyss have base 105 defense, with iron defense they can... survive? they make good defense passers, but other than that are slightly inferior omastars... Most UU "walls" are actually just "bulky waters"
Tangela i see no problem with, it can recover instantly and is decently tough. SCYTHER on the other hand is sort of cheap
Believe it or not, relicanth has as much defense as registeel. There are plenty of tough walls in UU. OH BTW what tier is Exploud in? i have never even seen it discussed...
Most walls that can recover/moonlight ect are BL though. Gastrodon can get stockpile and recover.
Huntail and gorebyss have base 105 defense, with iron defense they can... survive? they make good defense passers, but other than that are slightly inferior omastars... Most UU "walls" are actually just "bulky waters"
Tangela i see no problem with, it can recover instantly and is decently tough. SCYTHER on the other hand is sort of cheap
HMPH. Fine, if thats how you feel, OK. Jsut as long as Tangela, Magmar, Electabuzz are all in, I'm OK with everything else. I merely brought up Yanma because thats what people were talking about on page 37.
So is this discussion over, as in done??? We should probably modify the tier lists then; people on shoddy have been using the old outdated ones against me.
@ seds: uh.... wut? What are you talking about here...
So is this discussion over, as in done??? We should probably modify the tier lists then; people on shoddy have been using the old outdated ones against me.
@ seds: uh.... wut? What are you talking about here...
I don't understand how their position in past generations grants them some kind of magical entitlement to carry on that tradition. We need to look at each Pokemon as if they have always had this evolution. For example, we're not discussing Machoke, but if Machamp didn't appear until 4rd gen, we would be.
Electabuzz is fine by me, not just because he has superior speed, but because he is a very different Pokemon to Electivire. Whereas Electivire tends to be a physical attacker, Electabuzz is very much a special attacker. Both can run mixed sets, but they can still be independnt of each other. In fact...Electabuzz is much closer to a UU Raichu than a UU Electivire.
Magmar isn't as clear. Both him and Magmortar are gonna run almost identical movesets, with the exception of Thunderbolt. Still...his speed difference is quite significant. Magmortar's max 291 is a fairly meh number to hit, but Magmar's 313 allows him to beat 100/105 basers like Ninetales/Scyther so I think that is a worthy difference.
Tangela...no, in my opinion. Like Magmar, he has superior speed to his evolution, but it's not a worthwhile difference. They're both slow as shit, and neither of them are inclined to run any speed EV's, so I don't think that excuse is valid.
Yanma is inferior to Yanmega in every way (with equal speed), and CompoundEyes isn't good enough to warrant completely a different moveset. We all know that the only set he can run is Protect/Hypnosis/Air Slash/Bug Buzz with Speed Boost. Nononono.
Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth and Pikachu don't need discussed. They're all obvious enough.
Electabuzz is fine by me, not just because he has superior speed, but because he is a very different Pokemon to Electivire. Whereas Electivire tends to be a physical attacker, Electabuzz is very much a special attacker. Both can run mixed sets, but they can still be independnt of each other. In fact...Electabuzz is much closer to a UU Raichu than a UU Electivire.
Magmar isn't as clear. Both him and Magmortar are gonna run almost identical movesets, with the exception of Thunderbolt. Still...his speed difference is quite significant. Magmortar's max 291 is a fairly meh number to hit, but Magmar's 313 allows him to beat 100/105 basers like Ninetales/Scyther so I think that is a worthy difference.
Tangela...no, in my opinion. Like Magmar, he has superior speed to his evolution, but it's not a worthwhile difference. They're both slow as shit, and neither of them are inclined to run any speed EV's, so I don't think that excuse is valid.
Yanma is inferior to Yanmega in every way (with equal speed), and CompoundEyes isn't good enough to warrant completely a different moveset. We all know that the only set he can run is Protect/Hypnosis/Air Slash/Bug Buzz with Speed Boost. Nononono.
Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth and Pikachu don't need discussed. They're all obvious enough.
Magmortar has a few other options that Magmar doesn't have in addition to Thunderbolt (Earthquake, Solarbeam, and Rock Slide). IMO, they're definitely different enough.
The main difference with Tangela is that it can only run special movesets, while Tangrowth can run both physical and special. Aside from that, they're essentially the same.
The main difference with Tangela is that it can only run special movesets, while Tangrowth can run both physical and special. Aside from that, they're essentially the same.
She'd make a pretty good Sp. Defender with wish/protect while simultaniously sweeping with her above average (in UU) base 80 Speed, 125 Sp. Attack, and Shadow Ball / Psychic / Focus Blast (pick 2 out of the 3).
She has an awesome support set, and her sweeper set is better than a lot. I haven't run damage calculations, but I doubt that the sweeper set can be countered by anything.
Ok actually now that i think about it scyther is easily counterable...
Magcargo @ anything, focus sash??
bold 252 def 252 hp
acid armor
recover
stealth rock
HP rock
ok so if you have it out against scyther (does anyone lead with it?)
you either acid armor/recover until it burns itself, if its not the lead, you set up rocks. HP rock is guarenteed a OHKO, with 0 ev investment.
Relicanth @ whatever
impish 252 HP 252 def
Yawn
SR
head smash
rest?
yawn and stealth rock... self explanitory... its as tough as registeel defensively. duh headsmash is an OHKO and you dont get recoil.
Armaldo @ wide lense
rock blast
-filler
-filler
rock last breaks its sash, if it has one... wide lense boosts accuracy.
just get a rock type. scyther is OK in uu i suppose
Magcargo @ anything, focus sash??
bold 252 def 252 hp
acid armor
recover
stealth rock
HP rock
ok so if you have it out against scyther (does anyone lead with it?)
you either acid armor/recover until it burns itself, if its not the lead, you set up rocks. HP rock is guarenteed a OHKO, with 0 ev investment.
Relicanth @ whatever
impish 252 HP 252 def
Yawn
SR
head smash
rest?
yawn and stealth rock... self explanitory... its as tough as registeel defensively. duh headsmash is an OHKO and you dont get recoil.
Armaldo @ wide lense
rock blast
-filler
-filler
rock last breaks its sash, if it has one... wide lense boosts accuracy.
just get a rock type. scyther is OK in uu i suppose
Most of the people I knew who ran Yanmega was with the Reversal set...though I suppose it doesn't really work now.
Gorebyss an inferior Omastar? No. Just no.
For one thing Gorebyss is the only Baton Passer in the entire game which can learn a 2 level buff for BOTH defenses. It can practically pass to anything in the game and can boost as the situation calls for. Its special attack isn't shabby either...
They got Aqua Ring too but thats pretty minor.
No. Focus Sash cannot be beaten at all. Rock Blast has no effect on it. I should know, I play a Rock Blast Armaldo.
Full defense isn't even necessary. I run a bulky offensive Relicanth and it probably only takes 30-36% from absolute max attack Scyther Brick Break's.
(Although how I forgot Relicanth as a Scyther counter when I play it all the time beats me, its probably the most definite counter out there...)
Most definitely BL. Especially with the D/P additions. Hypnosis, Wish on top of what it can already do normally is not something to be taken lightly.
Yes it does.
Well...I wouldn't worry about the whole NFE issue for now, as it hasn't really been decided yet.
Back to Empoleon, Grass Knot has 80 BP on Poliwrath, so there's no way he works as a counter. I'm a bit more hesitant about Empoleon now, as Lanturn and Mantine are the only solid counters I can think of (it could probably 2HKO the special walls with Hydro Pump even if it wasn't using LO), and it's nowhere near as fragile as, say, Scyther. This isn't taking it's abilities as a wall into account, either. Then again, it is definitely beatable if you have the right pokemon, so...eh. Hard to say, but it's very difficult to beat without carrying a real counter (immune to toxic, faster than most scarfers after an agility, tough enough that it won't fall to most non-STAB SE attacks).
Back to Empoleon, Grass Knot has 80 BP on Poliwrath, so there's no way he works as a counter. I'm a bit more hesitant about Empoleon now, as Lanturn and Mantine are the only solid counters I can think of (it could probably 2HKO the special walls with Hydro Pump even if it wasn't using LO), and it's nowhere near as fragile as, say, Scyther. This isn't taking it's abilities as a wall into account, either. Then again, it is definitely beatable if you have the right pokemon, so...eh. Hard to say, but it's very difficult to beat without carrying a real counter (immune to toxic, faster than most scarfers after an agility, tough enough that it won't fall to most non-STAB SE attacks).
Wasn't there another perfectly good topic for NFE's in UU?
I'm glad that Colin published his shoddy battle ladder statistics.
Frosslass and Tentacruel is boarderline OU if we look at Shoddy popularity. It is more popular right now than a few current OU pokemon.
Frosslass and Tentacruel is boarderline OU if we look at Shoddy popularity. It is more popular right now than a few current OU pokemon.
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