DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Dragontamer]

Okay I've been testing Torterra/Steelix/Drapion the past few days in UU matches the past few days and here's what I've come up with:

Torterra does just about exactly as I predicted. Outspeeds everything sans Choice Scarfers after a Rock Polish (with HP EV's to spare), and can OHKO most things with EQ/Wood Hammer/Stone Edge. Counters are buly grasses( no grass/poison) with ice attacks. This leaves very few pokemon, mainly Meganium or Carnvine with HP Ice. If you predict correctly you can kill it with a scarfed ice attack but this is tricky. I would keep it where it's at, no wall can really stop it in UU.

Interesting. What EVs were you running? I'd like to run a few damage calculations if you don't mind...

I would imagine that Leafeon could counter with Leaf Blade, Roar and some the best defenses in UU / UU debatables. Shuckle can probably toxic it... >_> How much does Stone Edge do on Shuckle with whatever EVs you got?

 

[Cynthia]

252 Atk/82 HP/ 176 Spe( outspeed Jolly Swellow after Rock Polish) Adamant nature@ Leftovers

Stone Edge is most likely a 2HKO on Shuckle, EQ or Wood Hammer might be able to 2HKO as well.

Leafeon, if moved down to UU, could counter Torterra decently, it can take a few Stone Edges and Leaf Blade or X-Scissor it back.

 

[Helios]

Umm, I don't particularly trust my judgement, since I'm not very good, but how about entei? It's best STAB'd physical move has 65 power, along side rather horrible coverage from it's other attacks (it doesn't even learn EQ), it's special attack is only slightly above average, and it's defenses (115/85/75) are countered by the fact it's a pure fire type and it not having a recovery move not named 'rest'.

 

[Forsety]

So Drapion ... Steelix ... Regigigas .... Leafeon. Feelings for or against? Any experiences of using them?

Well I've used Drapion since D/P virtually started. (Sue me, I though it was cool) Cynthia's nailed just about everything I hate about it and why it isn't near as strong as everyone makes it out to be. I just needed someone else to confirm what I've already said.

-Lack of recovery, with that kind of HP 110 defense is worth nothing despite only having one weakness. It all balances out.
-It has nice spread out stats but the only one that exceeds base 100 is defense.
-You more than often want to max HP leaving just about no EV's for other stats.
-Even with STAB, Drapion's low battle power moves and low attack in general fails to even 2HKO or OHKO (after SD) on most pokemon.
-I mentioned Sniper problems already. Only way to actually use Sniper is with a Blaziken or Drifblim BP. Only Drifblim has better things to do and Blaziken opens you to 'safe' EQ's. Heck Skuntank technically does crithax better with a natural Focus Energy and STAB Night Slash, plus can sometimes take them down with it if it dies.


I've tried Leafeon alot recently and this is what I've found. Short version is that Leafeon has as much ups as downs.

-Leafeon gives amazing Wish support and offensive threat and support all at the same time. It can psuedo haze with Roar instead of Wish if you want to but its abit of a waste of its speed.
-Its coverage sucks reaaaaaaaaally hard. X Scissor at best just stops <Insert generic grass type> switching in since Leaf Blade covers most things with raw brute power adn SD.
-With that said I found its better to just run plain support set. Offensive set can only sweep late game.
-Most things even in OU can't expect to outspeed it let alone UU where it looks like a speed demon.
-However its special defense sucks hard even when it resists something. I think Mawile takes special attacks better than Leafeon.


Steelix I've voiced my sentiments multiple times. Its never realistically been a threat with less than stellar offense, bad special defense and non-existant speed and a typing that lets common physical attack types reduce its wall ability. All it does is stop a rampage by at least taking down the light fast offensive Pokemon, not dying instantly or Roaring to disrupt it.

 

[green_flash]

ehrm tested Regigigas a bit.. even if a good majority of my tests were frowned up by the fact the other "uu players" used things like Dugtrio, Spiritomb, Ninjask and Tauros, I would say Gigas is definitely not broken, especially since basically you do not EVER manage to remove the slow start negative effect bypassing the charging turns. It could be a pretty good asset for Parafusion/Paraflinch teams, tough.

 

[X-Act]

I thought a lot about Regigigas yesterday, and, after pondering a bit, I came up with this strategy:

Regigigas @ Leftovers
Adamant Nature
252 HP, 100 Def, 100 SpD, 56 Atk

- Substitute
- Rock Polish
- Return
- Earthquake

First pass a Reflect and a Light Screen with a Light Clay Pokemon... something like Meganium would do to set these up.

With those defenses, Reflect and Light Screen, Regigigas' 106HP substitute will not break even against some supereffective moves! This should give Regigigas a fair chance of emerging from the Slow Start with a playable amount of HP.

After emerging from the Slow Start, Reflect and Light Screen would fade away in one or two turns, but now Regigigas would have 407 Attack stat and 472 Speed (with Rock Polish) and can attack with STAB Return and Earthquake. Only five Pokemon resist this combination in UU: Drifblim, Solrock, Lunatone, Rotom and Shedinja.

That's the best I could manage.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

But you'd still have to admit that even that set isn't going to frighten any decent UU player.

In fact, I don't see the set working in UU at all. First of all you'd have to remove the PHazer(s), of which there are plenty of options, before the set up. Secondly, the Ghosts you mentioned are quite popular in UU, especially Rotom, and all three completely wall the set, so they have to be removed also. And thirdly, the weakest regular Fighting attack you are likely to come across is Brick Break, which negates all the screen set up in just one hit.

If that is the most threatening Regigigas strategy anyone can think of then there is no doubt in my mind that it should be given a shot in UU. I am of the opinion that using Regigigas purely offensively requires too much stall/setup and that it would probably be most effective as a support tank with 1-2 support moves combined with 2-3 attacks, possibly a mix of physical and special, in order to cripple or wear down some of its common switch-ins or potential problems for the team. With that I could see it being very usful but hardly unbalancing.

 

[Lou Cypher]

I've been thinking about Gardevoir to UU.

This is what I think would happen:

Gardevoir will compete with Hypno and Grumpig for the Bulky Psychic thing. Hypno and Grumpig have better switch-in traits in Insomnia and Thick Fat, but Gardevoir can surprise stuff every time (Coming in on Quagsire Surf for example).

As for switching in, Gardevoir can switch in on special moves, which won't do that much unless they're from something like Vespiquen. Not many special Ghost/Dark attackers in UU. Rotom might be something she want to stay clear of too.
Physical side, tho, is where she has problems. And the sad thing is that most physical sweepers fear her - but can 2HKO her. I don't think she can safely switch into Hitmonlee and Primeape, let alone Pinsir or CBBirds. On the flipside, if she is in, no way those things are gonna try coming in on her.

What will make her dangerous in UU is her unpredictability. In UU, she can pull the sweeper role to a bigger effect as in OU, due to no Alakazam, no Blissey etc. Her offensive movepool is mainly Psychic/Shadow Ball/HP/Thunderbolt/Energy Ball/Focus Blast, which is enough to get nice coverage. Then she got her plaethora of support moves (Hypnosis, Willowisp, Thunderwave, Memento, Healing Wish, Lucky Chant, Wish) to throw around. She can be Spec'd or Scarf'd in UU, making her stronger but more predictable.

If Gardevoir is allowed in UU, the way to counter her would be 2 steps: Figure out what role she's filling and act accordingly. If you notice a Choice Item, send in a Dark on her Psychics. I can see Mightyena or Absol use rising if Gardevoir sees time in UU.

Switching in on Gardevoir is iffy. You got Grumpig and Hypno, who fear Shadow Ball. Meganium might be pretty safe as Gardevoir wouldn't often use HP Ice/Fire. Lapras doesn't like Thunderbolt but can strike back hard. Sableye can take certain assaults, as can Steels. Stuff like Mightyena/Honchkrow (if UU)/Absol need to watch out for certain stuff she might carry but can switch in afterwards and threaten with Sucker Punch/Pursuit.

Support sets are no direct threat and enable Non-Fighting hard-hitters to come in. Swellow (especially if already burned), Pinsir, the likes. Dont try Special assaults because Gardevoir can take a lot of those for UU standards.

So in my opinion, adding Gardevoir in UU would mean no overcentralization. Gardevoir would become a Pokemon you'd have to watch out for while building your team, but her middling speed and low physical defences mean that she is prone to rip-apartage.

Opinion?

 

[Bourbon]

Yeah, if Clefable goes up, Gardevoir could fill the void somewhat with a less broken ability and weaker movepool (but higher stats)

 

[Cynthia]

OK, I've been testing Regigigas and Leafon the past few days and here's what I've come up with:

Regigigas is a general failure on most teams. The best it can hope for is Parafusion, but it can't tank with no recovery move, and its offenses aren't that wonderful even after Slow Start. Regigigas has problems with type coverage with only two moves to spare, he needs STAB but neither EQ nor Fire Punch cover all threats. He can be moved down.

Leafeon is more of a problem. With good speed for UU and attack it can sweep some teams with Swords Dance. Its movepool is poor, but the issue is that it can just BP the SD to another physical attacker. So basically moving Leafeon down would require a phazer that Leafeon cannot kill, there aren't too many Pokemon that fit this criteria (Muk?)I would keep it BL.

 

[Alienjesus]

hell, if we're actually starting to test these guys, whats on the list, and i'll have a go.

-Glaceon
-Lapras
-Poliwrath
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Empoleon (Medium


i'm nthinking of testing these guys

 

[ODDish]

Alienjesus
-Glaceon
-Lapras
-Poliwrath
-Cloyster (Very Strong) - Don't bother it's pretty much decided its definitely UU and not even that good there.
-Empoleon (Medium - It's not or has never been on the list I'm afraid.

Leafeon is more of a problem. With good speed for UU and attack it can sweep some teams with Swords Dance. Its movepool is poor, but the issue is that it can just BP the SD to another physical attacker. So basically moving Leafeon down would require a phazer that Leafeon cannot kill, there aren't too many Pokemon that fit this criteria (Muk?)I would keep it BL.

Hmm .. have to say my experience of Leafeon has mirrored Forsety's. I actually prefer the support set and have found it to be more useful.

My problem with the SD set was that despite its good speed there were still a fair number of faster pokemon who caused me problems by switching in on Swords Dances ...

Persian/Purugly both threaten to disrupt it with hypnosis. (Persian can also Switcheroo)
Jumpluff can Sleep Powder it
Froslass with STAB Ice Beam is bad news for Leafeon
Rapdiash STAB Flare Blitz, Megahorn, WoW and Hypnosis.
Scyther STAB Aeriel Ace/U-Turn/X-Scissor
Electabuzz/Electrode/Manectric/Raichu with HP Ice (in the case of Manectric Flamethrower)
Lopunny has Switcheroo and Encore to screw Leafeon over
Fearow/Dodrio STAB flying attacks
Ninetales STAB Flamethrower/Hypnosis

Obviously of these the special atackers are the most threatening, but all can cause problems.

 

[sanjay120]

The SDPassing set is only really threatened by special sweepers, it can SD on the switch in of everything else and BPass while it takes the hit.

 

[X-Act]

I'm not saying that my Regigigas strategy makes Regigigas broken in UU; I just said that is, in my opinion, the best way to use Regigigas. If that way is counterable in UU (and it is: as I said, there are 5 Pokemon who wall it, Choice Banders or Specsers can switch in and break the Sub, and things like Hitmonlee break the sub as well even without Choice Band - although Return would probably 2HKO it even under Slow Start conditions), then Regigigas is UU in my opinion. Parafusion is annoying but I don't see it that threatening unless the opponent gets unlucky.

 

[ODDish]

The SDPassing set is only really threatened by special sweepers, it can SD on the switch in of everything else and BPass while it takes the hit.

So its suddenly become immune to Sleep and Encore?

There are six special sweepers listed, thats potentially more counters than what a number of currently UU pokemone have ...

 

[Portugeez]

So its suddenly become immune to Sleep and Encore?

There are six special sweepers listed, thats potentially more counters than what a number of currently UU pokemone have ...

Some counters you listed can't switch in many times and Leafon can switch out (lol). Also, Leafeon gets many easy switch ins.

 

[ODDish]

Some counters you listed can't switch in many times and Leafon can switch out (lol).

You'll note I said potential counters, but as for not being able to switch in many times, what can repeatedly switch into Pinsir or Kangaskhan? Also if it switches out they've accomplished there task, its not passing any SD's.

Also, Leafeon gets many easy switch ins.

You can make that argument about a number of UU pokemon ...


Returning to what -Cythia was saying about potential phazers ...

Altaria resists both X-Scissor/Leaf Blade, can Roost off damage and has access to both Perish Song (which is great for BP chains) and Haze

Swalot can yawn/encore, and has a pseudo-recovery move in Pain Split.

Torkoal and Magcargo both present Leafeon a dilemma ...

The former is not easily felled, threatens Leafeon with STAB fire attacks, and BP recipients with Yawn and WoW.

Magcargo whilst slightly more vulnerable being only neutral to Grass, has Flame Body to discourage attacks, and like Torkoal has Yawn and WoW for BP recipients.

 

[green_flash]

eh, "trying to survive" (even in order to obtain maximum power) is not that great of a strategy tough... During my testing, I came up with a set which is a mix between the standard "Staller" and "Wall", with TWave for great support, Confuse Ray for abusing annoying parafusion to no end AND Knock Off, with Return as my stab move. Knock Off and Twave both hit ghost types and so not being able to deal with them inflicting massive damages didn't became that much of a problem with Stealth and Pursuit support.

 

[Colonel M]

*Grumble*, I could argue that a Accupressure Drapion would work WAY better than a regular Swords Dancer. But that's just me.

I think Leafeon would be okay for an UU. It doesn't rob all of Meganium's job, as Leafeon can't use Aromatherapy nor Leech Seed. His main advantage is probably Baton Passing and using Wish. I guess if we really want to make a third mention of an advantage it would be Leaf Blade, but it's not like he gets Earthquake or any of the sort. Actually his only... decent... physical movepool other than Leaf Blade is Return and X-Scissor. >_>; Also X-Act, on your Sub-Gigas post, do those 56 Attack points do... anything?

 

[X-Act]

Also X-Act, on your Sub-Gigas post, do those 56 Attack points do... anything?

Yes, they do. Remember that the higher the base stat, the larger it becomes when you multiply it by 1.1.

Without any EVs in Attack and a neutral nature, Regigigas' attack stat is only 356. With 56 EVs and a beneficial nature, it becomes 407, which is still higher than every other non-CB Pokemon in UU.

If you want to deallocate a few defense EVs to increase the attack further, be my guest, but then don't complain about the sub being broken by non-STAB attacks.

 

[Gmax]

Drapion makes an excellent Wall+TSpiker. I'm using one right now on my OU team, and I can tell you that it does its job well enough(of getting in the TSpikes and absorbing any the opponent sets up. That is something that is . I haven't really tried it in a UU team yet, but I'm sure it would still do quite well there with its decent walling capabilities and nice STAB. It also gets Brick Break if it wants to SD Sweep(Dark+Fighting). It can also PHaze with WW, making it a pretty nice utility Pokemon, that can also deal damage when required. It won't overcentralise UU, but it will definitely make it a lot more stallish.

 

[Forsety]

Drapion makes an excellent Wall+TSpiker. I'm using one right now on my OU team, and I can tell you that it does its job well enough(of getting in the TSpikes and absorbing any the opponent sets up.

Actually thats the exact role I use Drapion for.

Except I do Knock Off instead of Toxic Spikes since I still believe T-spikes are worthless. Even more so in the less stall friendly and unique UU. When some of the stronger sweepers are Swellow, Toxicroak and Clefable you don't really want to help them and the likes of Hitmon's, Pinsir etc. who bare no significant weaknesses to Drapion offensively or defensively.

Another reason I actually like Drapion is being poison it can use Black Sludge and beat the item clause should it be in effect. But when it comes to stalling Drapion WILL be worn down very easily. Claydol and Probopass both threaten very easy 2HKO's with Earth Power on Drapions significiantly weaker special side. The Nido's, Magcargo and Camerupt all are capable of this as well. Drapions just a oddity in that it functions very well in OU but has more threats in a lower metagame.

It also gets Brick Break if it wants to SD Sweep(Dark+Fighting).

To be honest when you're relying on non-STAB BB off 90 base attack as a main offensive option then you can't be a very versatile sweeper. Thats actually the main trouble with all of Drapion's attacks. It has massive coverage no doubt but the actual battle power of those attacks is very low. Earthquake is almost as strong as its STAB attacks.

It was hard enough getting those OHKO's with Sneasel in Advance and that had 95 attack and 115 speed.

 

[Colonel M]

Alright, thanks for that X-Act. Having more attack than a normal Choice Bander is kind of cool, but the amount of turns you have to stall for it... still, something I'd try if he took a bump down in UU.

About Entei, I know what you mean about he somewhat fails as a Choice Bander. Fire Fang sucks but Stone Edge and Earthquake still recovers a portion of the loss. God, Entei needs Flare Blitz so badly. To continue on, he can still attack with Calm Mind (and I don't see too many UU Pokemon other than Flash Fire users taking boosted Fire Blasts too well). I guess despite those, Entei doesn't have the best of a movepool. Other than Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Lava Plume, Shadow Ball, Extrasensory, and if we want to go really far; Hidden Power, are probably moreso of his choices. BUT, in defense, he can still hide behind very sturdy Substitutes. It doesn't even require an assload of EVs like Tyranitar to get 404HP. He could pull a decent Sunny-beamer and carry Earthquake. Other than that, he doesn't have anything, at least in my opinion, that's extremely threatening. He could deserve a test. UU Bulky Waters should easily wall him like Quagsire.

 

[X-Act]

Entei doesn't even get Earthquake. :(

 

[Forsety]

I have one major problem with putting Regigigas and Entei into UU. Is there any actual reason?

Not quite being that powerful as opposed to benefitting UU in a certain way isn't exactly my idea of grounds for a downgrade.