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DPP Gengar

Stellar

of the Distant Past
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I'm going to be reworking a bit of the current Gengar analysis due to the fact that most of it still applies. I just feel that some of the sets need to be reworked due to the developments in the Platinum metagame (mainly due to the fact that Hypnosis is a mediocre choice on Gengar at best and the spike in Scizor usage). I'll be keeping the majority of the Choice set comments and the coments for the EV / Other Options / Opinion sections with minor changes). I feel the Focus Sash + Counter set is no longer viable due to the fact it loses to most common leads and cannot normally be used later in the match due to the omnipresence of Stealth Rock. Hypnosis' accuracy drop has also made the double status set less than ideal and will similarly be dropped.

[SET]
name: Standard
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Explosion
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Gengar is a major threat, and with good reason. With base 130 Special Attack and 110 Speed, as well as great STAB and good type coverage, Gengar is capable of dealing heavy damage to the opponent's team. Gengar also has three extremely useful immunities to Ground, Normal, and Fighting to work with, allowing it to switch in against Pokémon such as Scarf Flygon locked into Earthquake, Choice Band Machamp locked into DynamicPunch, or Choice Scarf Heatran locked into Earth Power. Shadow Ball and Focus Blast give Gengar complete type coverage and hit some of the metagame's top threats for super effective damage. Focus Blast always OHKOes max HP Tyranitar in sandstorm; however, Gengar should be cautious due to Focus Blast's shaky 70% accuracy. It also 2HKOes standard Snorlax and always OHKOes min HP Heatran. Thunderbolt offers a quick KO against Gyarados and 2HKOes max HP Suicune.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Fire OHKOes Scizor and deals 59.34% - 70.33% to max HP Metagross. It should be noted that by running Hidden Power Fire, Gengar is forced to have an imperfect Speed IV, which means that it will almost always lose the speed tie against opposing Gengar and Latias. 40 Atk EVs and a Hasty nature are recommended when using Explosion, allowing Gengar to OHKO standard Blissey after Stealth Rock. Hypnosis could be used in the final slot, however its low accuracy makes it a less than ideal option. It is one of Gengar's best options against Blissey, who does not threaten Gengar immediately with Flamethrower or Ice Beam. Gengar should watch out for Thunder Wave though.</p>


[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Trick / Explosion
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Odd though it may seem to use Choice Scarf on something as fast as Gengar, this set has some very alluring advantages. Gengar's varied movepool lets it act as an effective revenge killer against some of the biggest threats in the game; Azelf, Tyranitar, Gyarados (including bulky varieties), and Salamence will all fall in one hit to their corresponding moves if they lack significant defensive investment. Choice Scarf Gengar is by no means a counter to such Pokémon, but it can easily save you the match should you make an error and let your Gyarados counter be KOed by something like Pursuit.</p>

<p>When you're finally tired of or no longer need to revenge kill any of your opponent's Pokémon, Gengar can then relieve itself of the penalties of its Choice Scarf at the expense of one of your opponent's Pokémon with the move Trick. This cripples most of Gengar's common switch-ins like Blissey and Snorlax by swapping their Leftovers for your Choice Scarf and more or less making them a burden for your opponent for the remainder of the match.</p>

<p>Explosion (preferably used with a Mild or Hasty nature) allows you to revenge kill a large number of Pokemon with one move as well, but don't expect to beat Blissey without a significant amount of investment in Attack or some previous damage.</p>

<p>Alternatively, this moveset is also ideal for Choice Specs Gengar. With such high Speed and Special Attack stats, Choice Specs is indeed a fearsome item on an opposing Gengar. In comparison to the Choice Scarf set, you won't be outspeeding Pokemon like Weavile or a once Dragon Danced Salamence here, but you'll pack way more power so neither can afford to switch in safely, nor can much else. Timid is the nature of choice here, as without a Choice Scarf you're going to want Gengar to be outspeeding as much as possible.</p>


[SET]
name: Substitute
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Focus Punch
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hypnosis / Explosion
item: Expert Belt
nature: Hasty
evs: 100 Atk / 156 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Substitute allows Gengar to deal with the Pokemon that commonly switch into it—namely Blissey, Scizor, and Snorlax.</p>

<p>Substitute not only blocks status and eases prediction, but allows Gengar to Focus Punch without risk of being hit. Focus Punch with the given EVs and item deals 63.29% - 74.81% to 0 HP / 252 Def Calm Blissey and 53.08% - 62.46% to 252 HP / 252 Bold Blissey, both a 2HKO even when factoring in Leftovers recovery. Focus Punch also deals 61.61% - 72.76% to min HP Heatran, meaning Stealth Rock followed by Focus Punch and Shadow Ball has a small chance of KOing.</p>

<p>Normally, Gengar should Substitute first turn, allowing it to OHKO Scizor hoping to OHKO with Bullet Punch or Forretress with Gyro Ball. Once behind a Substitute, Gengar can more safely use Hypnosis without fear of retaliation. Once the opponent is safely asleep and Gengar is behind its Substitute, it can begin to wreak havoc with the unresisted type coverage provided by Focus Punch and Shadow Ball.</p>

<p>Expert Belt is chosen over Leftovers for one main reason. It saves Gengar from having to transfer a significant amount of Special Attack EVs into Attack (because Blissey and Snorlax are hit super effectively by Focus Punch), which would significantly lower Shadow Ball's damage on common neutral threats like Salamence and Gyarados. Having no Leftovers is also a non-issue since Gengar rarely will be in battle long enough in order to spend four Substitutes, as it switches in using its immunities and almost always grants a switch to one of its standard counters.</p>

<p>Explosion can be used in the final slot in place of Hidden Power Fire, allowing Gengar to go out with a literal bang, dealing more damage than normal due to the investment in Attack.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Sludge Bomb was left out of the main sets, as it offers rather poor type coverage despite being Gengar’s most powerful attack. Most Grass-types won't enjoy a hit from Shadow Ball (especially Celebi), and are unlikely to stay in on Gengar, as Gengar resists their main STAB attacks.</p>

<p>Gengar has Energy Ball to hammer Swampert and Rhyperior, if either is a problem for your team. Psychic hurts Fighters more than Gengar's other attacks, but most of them won't enjoy boosted Shadow Balls, so it still remains a lesser option.</p>

<p>Mean Look can trap an opponent so you can Explode on them and Perish Song can phaze opponents. However, don't be tempted to use both Mean Look and Perish Song together, as Mismagius' superior defenses generally make it a better option for that strategy unless you really need the extra Speed. Taunt can prevent Blissey from firing off Thunder Wave and Toxic, allowing you to switch in your physical attackers without fearing status. Will-o-Wisp can hit Tyranitar and Scizor hoping to switch in; however, it is an option better left to any of the Rotom Appliances. Destiny Bond works well in place of Explosion if you are sure that Gengar will be KOed with the following attack.</p>

<p>Because of Gengar's plethora of attacks, Expert Belt is a fine option. It allows Gengar to hit harder, but without the 10% recoil that Life Orb inflicts. If you're playing under item clause, you can use Black Sludge over Leftovers.</p>

[EVs]
<p>341 Speed (216 EVs) outruns max Speed Adamant Dugtrio and Timid Mismagius. 347 beats max Speed Infernape, while maxing your Speed gives you the chance to win the coin flip against opposing Gengar. 204 Speed EVs is a good point to aim for on Choice Scarf sets so Gengar will outrun Adamant once-Dragon Danced Salamence and positive natured Choice Scarfed base 90 Pokemon, though max Speed is generally preferable to tie with other Choice Scarf Gengar. A Timid nature allows you to outspeed up to positive-natured base 105 Pokémon. You can however opt to use a Hasty or Naive nature if you want to use Explosion.</p>

<p>An Attack stat of 200 (Hasty or Naive nature, 136 EVs) is required to guarantee an OHKO on 252 HP / 252 Defense Bold Blissey with a Life Orb Explosion.</p>

<p>Gengar can invest 72 EVs in Defense allowing it to always survive CB Scizor Bullet Punch assuming it has not taken any prior damage.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Gengar is one of the most unpredictable Pokémon you will encounter. It has an excellent movepool backed up with great Speed and impressive Special Attack. Although Gengar's defenses are awful, its immunity to the popular Ground and Fighting attacks allows it plenty of opportunities to come in and wreak havoc.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Anything with Pursuit will really ruin Gengar, especially choiced variants, although Weavile and Tyranitar fear Focus Blast and Metagross won't enjoy a burn or repeated hits from Shadow Ball / Focus Blast (which can 2HKO with Choice Specs). If Tyranitar has 252 HP / 216 Special Defense and a Careful nature it will always survive Timid Gengar's Life Orb Focus Blast. If it has 252 HP / 128 Special Defense, it will survive Modest Choice Scarf Gengar all the time. Beware of Choice Scarf Heracross's Pursuit. Spiritomb has both Pursuit and Sucker Punch and plenty of Special Defense to absorb Gengar's attacks. Be wary of Sucker Punch and / or Pursuit from various other less common opponents as well, like Absol, Drapion, and Toxicroak.</p>

<p>Scizor also makes an excellent counter to Gengar as it resists Shadow Ball. Once in, Scizor has either the option of Pursuiting a fleeing Gengar or Bullet Punching it if it chooses to stay in.</p>

<p>Blissey does fine against most sets, paralyzing with Thunder Wave and wearing Gengar down with whichever special attack (Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt) she happens to carry. Snorlax with Crunch does a fine job, especially Sleep Talk versions as they can absorb Hypnosis. Snorlax can also put the hurt on Gengar by packing Pursuit. Beware of Focus Punch, Focus Blast, and Explosion though. Jirachi and Bronzong both do well with their high Special Defense and neutrality to most of Gengar's attacks. Heatran (especially Choice Scarf versions) can switch into everything barring a Fighting attack, and gets a boost from Hidden Power Fire. Even without a boost, Fire Blast will OHKO most Gengar.</p>

<p>Gengar's attacking power and incredible movepool mean that countering it is a rather daunting prospect. Thankfully, Gengar is incredibly fragile and most neutral attacks will at least score a 2HKO.</p>
 
Weavile / Tyranitar / Snorlax / Scizor / Metagross are all commonly Choiced which would force Gengar to switch out, being nailed by Pursuit (and likely KOed) in the process. Heatran doesn't mind Choice Scarf / Specs and Jirachi commonly carries Trick itself. Really the only counters that would mind are Blissey, Bronzong, and maybe Spiritomb depending on the set.
 
First, thank you, this has needed to be done, even though a nice attempt was made at it earlier in platinum. A couple of things:

On the choice sets, shouldn't trick be the first option in that last slot?

And I keep saying that there should be a "special" sub gengar with focus blast as it plays much differently than the sub punch one. On this set (or maybe any other), trick with black sludge is a great option.
 
I notice that Hypnosis is no longer mentioned in the standard set. I understand why - Gengar cannot afford a miss, for that will generally lead to Gengar taking significant damage thanks to his paper defences. However, I feel it should still be mentioned as an option, or at least in set comments. It's his best hope against Blissey, who generally has Toxic over Thunderwave, and Blissey's Ice Beam / Flamethrower isn't too threatening to Gengar. Hypnosis also works well when you know that Gengar will be forcing a swap, as it will shut down the Gengar counter coming in.
 
"Scizor makes a great counter to Gengar as it resists its STAB move and it resists Shadow Ball."

??? Its STAB move AND Shadow Ball? :[
 
[Counters]
<p>Anything with Pursuit will really ruin Gengar, especially choiced variants, although Weavile and Tyranitar fear Focus Blast and Metagross won't enjoy a burn or repeated hits from Shadow Ball / Focus Blast (which can 2HKO with Choice Specs). If Tyranitar has 252 HP / 216 Special Defense, Careful, it will always survive Timid Gengar's Life Orb Focus Blast.
Shouldn't this be something like "If Tyranitar has 252 HP / 216 Special Defense and a Careful nature, it will always survive Timid Gengar's Life Orb Focus Blast"?

Also, I think Destiny Bond deserves a mention in the Other Options section. No one expects it nowadays, so it can prove helpful.

Nice work by the way :)
 
Psychic hurts Fighters more than Gengar's other attacks, but most of them won't enjoy boosted Shadow Balls, so it still remains a lesser option.
boosted by what? If Gengar's carrying Expert Belt, Shadow Ball wouldn't be boosted against fighters.
 
And I keep saying that there should be a "special" sub gengar with focus blast as it plays much differently than the sub punch one.

This. Focus Blast has advantages compared to Focus Punch, a large one being able to revenge things like Lucario. I feel it either needs mentioned or have its own set.
 
name: Choice
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Trick / Explosion/Destiny Bond
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Destiny Bond can be helpful against trappers such as Tyranitar, Weavile, and Scizor.
 
Destiny Bond would not help against Weavile (unless Gengar has the Choice Scarf,) and maybe not even against Scizor (LO Bullet Punch OHKOes) because you would have to go first in order for it to work.

On top of that, you can't switch between moves, and being stuck in a support move is not fun at all.
 
Destiny Bond would not help against Weavile (unless Gengar has the Choice Scarf,) and maybe not even against Scizor (LO Bullet Punch OHKOes) because you would have to go first in order for it to work.
You're basically going to pair it up with choice scarf anyways, since it's the standard item. Also, it can help with other things, such as CMcune if it happens to get some CMs up.
On top of that, you can't switch between moves, and being stuck in a support move is not fun at all.
Not that you'll be using it when you're not really sure anyways.
 
I'm not doubting that Destiny Bond works Amre, it's the fact that it does not work against priority move users, and the current OU tier is chock full of them.

If Crocune got some CMs going, Trick would give him a Choice Item, which would make him use just CM, and therefore he'd switch and lose his boosts.
 
I think it might be worth noting that any set that runs HP Fire is required to have a Speed IV of 30, meaning it will lose the speed tie against opposing Gengar and Latias. Perhaps mention it in the very first set, right agter where you say you shouldn't stay in out of fear of Bullet Punch.

Hidden Power Fire OHKOes Scizor and deals 59.34% - 70.33% to max HP Metagross. It should be noted that Gengar should not stay in against Scizor in an attempt to KO it with Hidden Power Fire, due to the threat of Bullet Punch. Also, by running Hidden Power Fire, Gengar is forced to have an imperfect Speed IV, which means that it will almost always lose the speed tie against opposing Gengar and Latias.

Good writeup Stellar.

EDIT: Agreeing with Havak. Scizor has very little risk in Pursuiting Gengar if Scizor is above 50% health - Gengar will die to Pursuit even if it stays in and attacks, and Scizor resists Gengar's STAB attacks. Generally, from my experience, my Gengar has never been Bullet Punched by Scizor. They almost assuredly Pursuit. So maybe even make it:

Hidden Power Fire OHKOes Scizor and deals 59.34% - 70.33% to max HP Metagross. It should be noted that by running Hidden Power Fire, Gengar is forced to have an imperfect Speed IV, which means that it will almost always lose the speed tie against opposing Gengar and Latias.
 
I don't think that's good advice, really. What if Scizor uses Pursuit instead? The Choice Band set is more common (at the moment) so I'd probably be more worried of that, you might be best off mentioning that as well.
 
I'm not doubting that Destiny Bond works Amre, it's the fact that it does not work against priority move users, and the current OU tier is chock full of them.
This sentence is true by every way, and that's just why I said that it deserves a mention in the Other Options section.

If Crocune got some CMs going, Trick would give him a Choice Item, which would make him use just CM, and therefore he'd switch and lose his boosts.
Except that almost no one would continue CMing until he has +6 in both defenses, meaning that they'll probably use an attacking move.

Anyways, I guess we should stop spamming this thread :S
 
Most of the suggestions have been about the stuff I just reused from the old analysis so I'll fix those and write up a special sub set. Whoever suggested its inclusion should make a few more comments so I know exactly what you are looking for. :)

All the corrections have been fixed.

Shadow Ball
Substitute
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Fire / Hypnosis / Trick

is that the setup that would be on the special set?
 
Most of the suggestions have been about the stuff I just reused from the old analysis so I'll fix those and write up a special sub set. Whoever suggested its inclusion should make a few more comments so I know exactly what you are looking for. :)

All the corrections have been fixed.

Shadow Ball
Substitute
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Fire / Hypnosis / Trick

is that the setup that would be on the special set?
I don't really see why a set running Substitute should have Trick on it. Regardless, I think this should have its own set (if it was going to replace the current Substitute one), as this set does not help you counter Blissey whatsoever. In any case, Hidden Power Fire should be the main option, with Thunderbolt being second. Hypnosis should not be in the set really, but would be important to make note of in set comments. Destiny Bond would work as well, since Substitute will allow you to reduce your HP and make perfect use of Destiny Bond from slower attackers.
 
You should probably have Hypnosis as the first option. If you put the foe to sleep, you're likely to get a switch, as well as an opportunity to set up a free Sub.
 
Most of the suggestions have been about the stuff I just reused from the old analysis so I'll fix those and write up a special sub set. Whoever suggested its inclusion should make a few more comments so I know exactly what you are looking for. :)

All the corrections have been fixed.

Shadow Ball
Substitute
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Fire / Hypnosis / Trick

is that the setup that would be on the special set?

Yeah, that's right. To clarify, trick is for when your held item is black sludge, a nice option for screwing over blissey. On this set hypnosis actually is a rather nice option, as you can have 2 chances for it to hit. If you don't use trick, lefties is the superior item. Note that if you opt for HP Fire (which is for luring and ohkoing scizor behind a sub for those who are unaware), your speed point will drop 1, meaning that you can opt to drop your speed down to barely outspeed infernape who aim for 330 speed to outspeed salamence now.
 
I disagree with you Destiny Bond haters. Most Choice Scarfed Pokemon don't outspeed Timid ScarfGar, so pulling off a quick Destiny Bond on something like an unsuspecting Lucario can easily end it. It is also useful on the LO and some other sets for taking out full health walls like Pursuit Snorlax. It should probably be mentioned in the Choice comments, and a larger mention in the Other Options.

Oh, and it's DynamicPunch, not Dynamicpunch, right?
 
Destiny Bond is mentioned in other options. I'm pretty sure that is where it will stay. It isn't really an "amazing" option on any of the sets so its just relegated to other options to prevent slashitis. DynamicPunch is correct, I'll fix that.
 
HP Ice kind of sucks on LO Gengar compared to Scarf Gengar; I'd always use HP Fire personally because all you're hitting with HP Ice is CB Flygon on the revenge...
 
I spent a lot of today testing out the special substitute set. While I'll admit that it lost a lot of its oomph with the drop in accuracy of hypnosis, it is still deadly, and plenty worthy of inclusion in the analysis apart from the sub punch set. The biggest problem it has with the drop, is that quite often Gengar has to rely on that sleep to get its first sub up (kind of like how breloom does it). If it misses that hypnosis twice its basically dead. However, when the sub can be pulled off, the opponent is in for a world of hurt. Gengar will still have plenty of opportunities to get the sub up due to its immunities against fighting, normal, and ground, all common choiced attacks. Not to mention that if it is sent out against something like Latias a lot of people expect gengar to be choiced, kind of like how baitran works extremely well now due to the expectations of a scarf. Once that sub is up, Gengar can easily 2hko just about every pokemon in the game with its two 120 bp moves with perfect neutral coverage. Now, for that last move, hypnosis is still my first choice as with a sub up, you do have two chances at getting it off. HP Fire is also a great option, as scizor VERY OFTEN switch into Gengar. What put me off to it was losing the speed tie to Latias and other Gengars. But if you have a sub up, neither of those will be a problem. After thinking about it, Trick with Black Sludge is rather gimmicky, and might be best for Other Options. All it is really used for is giving you something to do once Blissey switches into your sub. If anything wide lens is a great item as it boosts the accuacry of both hypnosis and focus blast.

The only pokemon that really threaten this gengar besides revenge killers are Scizor and Blissey (Snorlax can be 2hko'ed by focus blast if it has taken any prior damage or lacks heavy defensive investment). Even Scizor wouldn't like to be put to sleep, or Gengar can switch out and another Pokemon can set up on the Pursuit or Bullet Punch. Other than those two, the only times Gengar were really defeated was by itself when it failed to hit with hypnosis. Scizor and Blissey can be dealt with rather decently with the rest of the team, as most teams already prepare for those two threats, something that I was going to talk about but I don't want to get too far off topic, unless requested.

I think you sat in on a match of mine today where I used Sub Gengar rather effectively, so if you were hesitant about including the set before, hopefully I could sway you.
 
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