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Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings: mk. IV
- Thread starter BKC
- Start date
- Status
This list is pretty good overall, but I'm going to point out a few atrocities:
Infernape A+ -> A
When evaluating the other mons in A+, putting Ape in the same tier as them simply doesn't feel representative of how good it actually is in the current metagame. For one, when you opt for other A+ breakers like Latias or Heatran, they naturally make your team stronger defensively vs common threats such as Heatran/Loom and Rachi/Latias, respectively, due to their typing and stats. Infernape on the other hand adds very little utility to a team outside of being a breaker, a job which it simply isn't good enough at to warrant placing it in the A+ tier. Physical sets have the problem of killing themselves with Flare Blitz recoil while special/mixed sets rely on the inaccurate Fire Blast, and often struggle to get important OHKOs. Choiced sets, while powerful, can be very prediction reliant, and often get completely destroyed by teams with multiple Protect users. Not to mention, locking yourself into a STAB move and giving Dragonite/Gyara a free DD or Gengar a free Sub can spell doom for the more offensive builds Ape often finds itself on.
In addition, Ape is INCREDIBLY easy to wear down on a level unlike anything else in A+, and pretty much unlike anything else in the game. It has the unique combination of being vulnerable to every entry hazard, weak to sand, and susceptible to common forms of priority such as Mach Punch from Breloom and Extremespeed from Dragonite/Lucario. Granted, you can run Slack Off or Lefties 4 attacks to mitigate this issue slightly, but in the former case, you'll really be missing that last coverage move while in the latter case, you are genuinely piss weak without any sort of boosting item. Lastly, current metagame trends such as increased Swampert/Latias usage and the influx of Dugtrio hurt Ape, which is ultimately why this inconsistent mon does not deserve to be in A+. Personally, when I teambuild, I always always find myself preferring other options to Ape, and putting it in the same tier as stuff like Starmie, Rotom, and Breloom is simply a joke imo.
Magnezone A- -> A
Imo Magnezone is simply a cut above the rest of the A- tier mons, and the value it adds to a team much more reflects an A tier mon overall. While it goes without saying that Spikes are one of the most centralizing and strongest mechanics in the game, and the ability of Magnezone to simply delete Skarm from the match is what sits at the core of its viability, Magnezone also has a lot of other overlooked good qualities. For one, it has a way to beat almost all of its common checks - Swampert needs to fear HP Grass and/or Toxic/Magnet Rise, Clefable needs to fear Explosion, BoltBeam Clef loses 1v1 to Metal Sound, Latias needs to fear Toxic/Explosion, defensive Rotom needs to fear Metal Sound and/or Refresh, dragons need to fear a potential HP Ice, etc etc. In other words, you can tailor make Magnezone to be able to beat whatever you need it to beat based on the needs of your team, which isn't something I can say about the other A- mons.
Additionally, there are some current meta trends that make Magnezone feel like a more useful pick than ever atm. The main one is that defensive Jirachi with Body Slam is at an all time high, and the ability to at worst reliably cripple it with Twave and at best remove it from the game completely is huge. I will admit that the influx of Dugtrio hurts Zone, but in most cases where your Zone gets trapped by Dug, it's after you've just trapped their Skarm, which is almost always a worthwhile trade for the Zone user. This is especially true since, unlike Dug, trapping something with your Zone doesn't always guarantee a free turn to a dangerous sweeper since Zone isn't always choiced, and even when it is, electric is a very reliable offensive typing that's much harder to set up on than Dug's EQ. Furthermore, in many cases, trapping a steel lets sweepers like OTR Zong and SD Gliscor, which naturally match up excellently vs the 2 best mons in the tier, completely run through teams. Even in games when you're not trapping stuff, Magnezone's typing make it a great switchin to stuff like Latias and BoltBeam Clefable, and as I said electric is a very consistent offensive typing to spam. Overall, I would describe Magnezone as a mon with a guaranteed level of usefulness in all games at its worst, but a large potential for an infinite utility ceiling that allows it to completely dominate certain games at its best.
When evaluating the other mons in A+, putting Ape in the same tier as them simply doesn't feel representative of how good it actually is in the current metagame. For one, when you opt for other A+ breakers like Latias or Heatran, they naturally make your team stronger defensively vs common threats such as Heatran/Loom and Rachi/Latias, respectively, due to their typing and stats. Infernape on the other hand adds very little utility to a team outside of being a breaker, a job which it simply isn't good enough at to warrant placing it in the A+ tier. Physical sets have the problem of killing themselves with Flare Blitz recoil while special/mixed sets rely on the inaccurate Fire Blast, and often struggle to get important OHKOs. Choiced sets, while powerful, can be very prediction reliant, and often get completely destroyed by teams with multiple Protect users. Not to mention, locking yourself into a STAB move and giving Dragonite/Gyara a free DD or Gengar a free Sub can spell doom for the more offensive builds Ape often finds itself on.
In addition, Ape is INCREDIBLY easy to wear down on a level unlike anything else in A+, and pretty much unlike anything else in the game. It has the unique combination of being vulnerable to every entry hazard, weak to sand, and susceptible to common forms of priority such as Mach Punch from Breloom and Extremespeed from Dragonite/Lucario. Granted, you can run Slack Off or Lefties 4 attacks to mitigate this issue slightly, but in the former case, you'll really be missing that last coverage move while in the latter case, you are genuinely piss weak without any sort of boosting item. Lastly, current metagame trends such as increased Swampert/Latias usage and the influx of Dugtrio hurt Ape, which is ultimately why this inconsistent mon does not deserve to be in A+. Personally, when I teambuild, I always always find myself preferring other options to Ape, and putting it in the same tier as stuff like Starmie, Rotom, and Breloom is simply a joke imo.
Imo Magnezone is simply a cut above the rest of the A- tier mons, and the value it adds to a team much more reflects an A tier mon overall. While it goes without saying that Spikes are one of the most centralizing and strongest mechanics in the game, and the ability of Magnezone to simply delete Skarm from the match is what sits at the core of its viability, Magnezone also has a lot of other overlooked good qualities. For one, it has a way to beat almost all of its common checks - Swampert needs to fear HP Grass and/or Toxic/Magnet Rise, Clefable needs to fear Explosion, BoltBeam Clef loses 1v1 to Metal Sound, Latias needs to fear Toxic/Explosion, defensive Rotom needs to fear Metal Sound and/or Refresh, dragons need to fear a potential HP Ice, etc etc. In other words, you can tailor make Magnezone to be able to beat whatever you need it to beat based on the needs of your team, which isn't something I can say about the other A- mons.
Additionally, there are some current meta trends that make Magnezone feel like a more useful pick than ever atm. The main one is that defensive Jirachi with Body Slam is at an all time high, and the ability to at worst reliably cripple it with Twave and at best remove it from the game completely is huge. I will admit that the influx of Dugtrio hurts Zone, but in most cases where your Zone gets trapped by Dug, it's after you've just trapped their Skarm, which is almost always a worthwhile trade for the Zone user. This is especially true since, unlike Dug, trapping something with your Zone doesn't always guarantee a free turn to a dangerous sweeper since Zone isn't always choiced, and even when it is, electric is a very reliable offensive typing that's much harder to set up on than Dug's EQ. Furthermore, in many cases, trapping a steel lets sweepers like OTR Zong and SD Gliscor, which naturally match up excellently vs the 2 best mons in the tier, completely run through teams. Even in games when you're not trapping stuff, Magnezone's typing make it a great switchin to stuff like Latias and BoltBeam Clefable, and as I said electric is a very consistent offensive typing to spam. Overall, I would describe Magnezone as a mon with a guaranteed level of usefulness in all games at its worst, but a large potential for an infinite utility ceiling that allows it to completely dominate certain games at its best.
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I truthfully haven’t seen Quagsire used at all in my time playing, but I guess good typing and bulk let it be a nice wall. Also stuff like curse can be a good option but I think gastrodon is better. Also quag gets encore which can be nice for stopping sweepers and defensive Pokemon etc.
As for Forretress, it’s typing sucks, it has no recovery, it has to kill itself to do any good damage to most stuff, most importantly starmie. Also it hard loses to Rotom and Gengar as well without gyro ball.
Gamer1234556
"Because... Scald is a shit Ferro answer!!!"
Forretress's typing isn't the problem, its the fact that it can't consistently keep rocks off. Many SR Setters run Fire-moves and stacking weaknesses to Heatran and Infernape isn't ideal at all.
Forretress's damage output also isn't necessarily a problem either, it has Payback, which means neither Gengar nor Starmie can switch into it safely. Its real problem is how badly it loses to Rest-Talk Rotom.
Clefable for Srank.
Two very threatening main sets in cm and support set. Lotts of usefull techs to use in reflect, encore, protect and ice beam on support sets to passby common checks/responses for it. Reflect for any kind of trapping (ttar,duggy and cb sciz...and support for the other members of the team. Protect for extra Lefties recovery and safety against trappers and to be safe versus tech booms on mons like sdef Tran in case youre able to time it right. Encore stops any kind of set up even sub with breloom or subsplit gar and create opening for your gameplan in like stall vs stall. Think bout encoring the opposing clef with softboiled in stall vs stall to get a free spike with your skarm without taking a knock and getting your item removed or eating a para. ice beam threatens loom/dnite on the switch but its main use is to beat gliscor which is a good response for the standard twave knock set. Also great in mirrors with other support sets to freeze them and win alot of endgame in those matchups.
CM sets (cm soft ib tb) r super threatening with the right support (hazard spam and trapping mainly) and one of the most feared archetype. You can even go with twave support and ft&gk coverage to beat common checks in pert and wish tect jira which are hard to trap with like duggy. Also not to mention that cm clef with bolt beam is a good check to stuff like dd gyara thanks to the invested physical bulk which makes it extremely hard to beat with physical moves.
those facts alongside the fact clefable checks so much (starmie, lati etc.) makes it s to me. by the way did i mention that clef can keep rocks vs starmie the most common spinner in dpp? thats another bonus.
Two very threatening main sets in cm and support set. Lotts of usefull techs to use in reflect, encore, protect and ice beam on support sets to passby common checks/responses for it. Reflect for any kind of trapping (ttar,duggy and cb sciz...and support for the other members of the team. Protect for extra Lefties recovery and safety against trappers and to be safe versus tech booms on mons like sdef Tran in case youre able to time it right. Encore stops any kind of set up even sub with breloom or subsplit gar and create opening for your gameplan in like stall vs stall. Think bout encoring the opposing clef with softboiled in stall vs stall to get a free spike with your skarm without taking a knock and getting your item removed or eating a para. ice beam threatens loom/dnite on the switch but its main use is to beat gliscor which is a good response for the standard twave knock set. Also great in mirrors with other support sets to freeze them and win alot of endgame in those matchups.
CM sets (cm soft ib tb) r super threatening with the right support (hazard spam and trapping mainly) and one of the most feared archetype. You can even go with twave support and ft&gk coverage to beat common checks in pert and wish tect jira which are hard to trap with like duggy. Also not to mention that cm clef with bolt beam is a good check to stuff like dd gyara thanks to the invested physical bulk which makes it extremely hard to beat with physical moves.
those facts alongside the fact clefable checks so much (starmie, lati etc.) makes it s to me. by the way did i mention that clef can keep rocks vs starmie the most common spinner in dpp? thats another bonus.
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Hello everyone, interesting post Fakes and thank you for collaborating to the establishment of DPP viability ranking. Using this post, I want to explain in my words why I think Clefable should stay in A+ not be S rank. To back up these comments and not just throw random thoughts that everyone could disagree with I will try to compare the influence of an unquestionable S rank (Tyranitar) which the potential S Rank that is Clefable and determine if those could compete in the same course. Could also compare with Jirachi but this would be long for no reason imo as no one would disagree with the fact that Jirachi and Tyranitar are more or less similar in terms of influence width and really stand out from other Pokemons.
Tyranitar's spectrum of influence goes from "hyper offensive" with very weak defensive backbone that should allow to pivot only once or twice on threats in exchange of forcing progress, to the midground between stall and offense with the like of bulky offense and balance until the possibility of "hard stall" style that allows to pivot on threats numerous times by shrugging off attacks and staying healthy with recovery move. Of course, there are still tons of possible variations (you could fit Latias there and there with multiple variation of sets, Jirachi is often replaceable by Metagross/Bronzong, Breloom can fit almost everywhere, same with Gengar, could see some Empoleon, Heatran not to mention different scarfers and leads, Nidoqueen variants etc..) and I also don't pretend to have explored the entire DPP OU metagame but I think that you can all more or less agree that those structures are fairly tried and true which is why I use those to demonstrate my thoughts. Then we could discuss about the fact some archetypes are more reliable than others (like Lucario not being in the best spot etc) or anything but don't forget that those are just examples and I don't think it's fundamentally true. Some types of very offensive builds have been competing with consistent results recently and showed that they are able to dismantle the sturdiest defensive structures as long as they have a well-prepared gameplan in the teambuilder (knowing which target to cripple etc) and the player that use those is able to make the plays that reward him. That is not an easy task for sure but piloting offense nowadays rewards more than ever a precise skill based on the fact that a well-piloted and built stall can be dismantled by a well-piloted and built offense. Ofc it is also about match ups but my statement is that offensive teams have tools to beat it consistently.. Of course, this is still discussable (hi dugtrio) but this is part of the actual metagame and Ttar is more influent on that case than Clef is.
Seeing Clefable's spectrum now, it is obvious that it tends to converge towards more bulky and fattish patterns. Still, although most of their structures can adapt and are very versatile (tons of possible variations waters can be Suicune, Starmie, Gastrodon or even Quagsire, Jirahi can be Bronzong even Metagross, Dugtrio can be in more types of structure, I did not mention the existence of Forry or Donphan that have shown very high potential recently and some other possibilities of Clefable bulky offense but those seem less significant to my eyes) they still tend to focus on a specific style that is most restricted in terms of possibilities than Tyranitar's one that is S rank. We could also argue that Dugtrio puts a Damocles sword on top of many structures which tends to benefit more Clefable than Tyranitar in general because it is the number one abuser and the fact that numerous dismantling tools tend to be grounded.
The diversity of popular structures in which Tyranitar can fit is wider than Clefable as Tyranitar fits in most Clefable's structures while opening other windows that Clefable does not follow. It does not mean that Clefable is in any sort of way less effective than Tyranitar, it means that Tyranitar's influence spreads up and down and across the DPP landscape because it has the possibility to support effectively almost every type of structure which is why it should be S Rank and not Clefable whose influence is mostly limited to stallish archetypes not to mention that its influence is also due to Tyranitar's one. Those two threats are indeed insanely strong and their influence extends to all structures that must defensively adapt to their existence. For example; Tyranitar forces archetypes to be Sandstorm resilient and have great switch-ins to Rock / Dark move as well as having strong momentum-shifting tools against it while Clefable forces them to possess long term Knock Off responses like sandstorm immune and rock resilient pokemon with access to recovery such as Gliscor, Hippowdown, Skarmory your own Clefable / Breloom / trappers / pokemon that can set up on Clefable with Recovery move or Substitute / all-in threats such as Boom Metagross, Boom Gengar, Boom Heatran to minimize the impact of Knock Off and that is only for the support set I did not even talk about the Calm Mind one whose influence is similar which is why Clefable should be ranked top of A+ (with Latias and Swampert this should belong to another post because this is also about defining the order) considering how dominant and infuent these structures have been but not S rank like Tyranitar because its spectrum of influence is less wide. We could make the same analysis with Jirachi and I suppose that we would get similar results and this is what is supposed to differentiate an A+ pokémon from an S one. If these comments are subject to a disagreement, remember this only my opinion and it would be great to explain me what I dont get and that the viability ranking clarifies how it estimates the strength of a Pokemon.
Tyranitar's spectrum of influence goes from "hyper offensive" with very weak defensive backbone that should allow to pivot only once or twice on threats in exchange of forcing progress, to the midground between stall and offense with the like of bulky offense and balance until the possibility of "hard stall" style that allows to pivot on threats numerous times by shrugging off attacks and staying healthy with recovery move. Of course, there are still tons of possible variations (you could fit Latias there and there with multiple variation of sets, Jirachi is often replaceable by Metagross/Bronzong, Breloom can fit almost everywhere, same with Gengar, could see some Empoleon, Heatran not to mention different scarfers and leads, Nidoqueen variants etc..) and I also don't pretend to have explored the entire DPP OU metagame but I think that you can all more or less agree that those structures are fairly tried and true which is why I use those to demonstrate my thoughts. Then we could discuss about the fact some archetypes are more reliable than others (like Lucario not being in the best spot etc) or anything but don't forget that those are just examples and I don't think it's fundamentally true. Some types of very offensive builds have been competing with consistent results recently and showed that they are able to dismantle the sturdiest defensive structures as long as they have a well-prepared gameplan in the teambuilder (knowing which target to cripple etc) and the player that use those is able to make the plays that reward him. That is not an easy task for sure but piloting offense nowadays rewards more than ever a precise skill based on the fact that a well-piloted and built stall can be dismantled by a well-piloted and built offense. Ofc it is also about match ups but my statement is that offensive teams have tools to beat it consistently.. Of course, this is still discussable (hi dugtrio) but this is part of the actual metagame and Ttar is more influent on that case than Clef is.
Seeing Clefable's spectrum now, it is obvious that it tends to converge towards more bulky and fattish patterns. Still, although most of their structures can adapt and are very versatile (tons of possible variations waters can be Suicune, Starmie, Gastrodon or even Quagsire, Jirahi can be Bronzong even Metagross, Dugtrio can be in more types of structure, I did not mention the existence of Forry or Donphan that have shown very high potential recently and some other possibilities of Clefable bulky offense but those seem less significant to my eyes) they still tend to focus on a specific style that is most restricted in terms of possibilities than Tyranitar's one that is S rank. We could also argue that Dugtrio puts a Damocles sword on top of many structures which tends to benefit more Clefable than Tyranitar in general because it is the number one abuser and the fact that numerous dismantling tools tend to be grounded.
The diversity of popular structures in which Tyranitar can fit is wider than Clefable as Tyranitar fits in most Clefable's structures while opening other windows that Clefable does not follow. It does not mean that Clefable is in any sort of way less effective than Tyranitar, it means that Tyranitar's influence spreads up and down and across the DPP landscape because it has the possibility to support effectively almost every type of structure which is why it should be S Rank and not Clefable whose influence is mostly limited to stallish archetypes not to mention that its influence is also due to Tyranitar's one. Those two threats are indeed insanely strong and their influence extends to all structures that must defensively adapt to their existence. For example; Tyranitar forces archetypes to be Sandstorm resilient and have great switch-ins to Rock / Dark move as well as having strong momentum-shifting tools against it while Clefable forces them to possess long term Knock Off responses like sandstorm immune and rock resilient pokemon with access to recovery such as Gliscor, Hippowdown, Skarmory your own Clefable / Breloom / trappers / pokemon that can set up on Clefable with Recovery move or Substitute / all-in threats such as Boom Metagross, Boom Gengar, Boom Heatran to minimize the impact of Knock Off and that is only for the support set I did not even talk about the Calm Mind one whose influence is similar which is why Clefable should be ranked top of A+ (with Latias and Swampert this should belong to another post because this is also about defining the order) considering how dominant and infuent these structures have been but not S rank like Tyranitar because its spectrum of influence is less wide. We could make the same analysis with Jirachi and I suppose that we would get similar results and this is what is supposed to differentiate an A+ pokémon from an S one. If these comments are subject to a disagreement, remember this only my opinion and it would be great to explain me what I dont get and that the viability ranking clarifies how it estimates the strength of a Pokemon.
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Definitely agree Clefable to top of A+, as it is the face of the best play style. Also agree that the fact that it is confined to bulky teams means it probably does not belong in S, but at the same time, the fact that offensive and defensive teams alike have to go to such lengths in order to deal with clef structures means I can understand the thought that clef belongs in S. There just isn’t really any consistent picks to abuse it throughout a longer game that don’t get messed up by status, hazard stack, and knock off, with the exception of Breloom, however it has plenty of common teammates that provide good Breloom answers. Definitely think it should be over skarmory and Starmie, as well as probably Heatran as well. Not sure when the last update was , but I think the Subranks themselves are pretty accurate, but the order within A+ and A seems a little off to me personally. Just my 2 cents.
Now that Dugtrio is banned, it's probably a good idea to update this.
The Dugtrio ban was so recent that it’s probably good to wait a little bit before making any massive VR changes. Obviously Pokémon like Heatran and Tyranitar will get better, it’ll just take a bit of time to adjust. The good news is SPL is coming up real soon, so the meta will develop a lot more quickly then and the VR will be updated accordingly.
My boy Emeral told me to post my current post-Arena Trap ban VR here, so here it is (didn't bother to include the C ranks):
S: Jirachi, Tyranitar
A+: Latias, Heatran, Clefable, Breloom, Swampert, Rotom, Skarmory
A: Gengar, Gyarados, Metagross, Dragonite, Magnezone, Gliscor, Zapdos, Empoleon, Bronzong, Infernape
A-: Flygon, Suicune, Machamp, Milotic, Roserade, Azelf, Uxie, Kingdra, Hippowdon, Starmie, Lucario
B+: Blissey, Celebi, Togekiss, Scizor, Nidoqueen
B: Forretress, Abomasnow, Heracross, Mamoswine, Donphan, Rhyperior
B-: Gastrodon, Quagsire, Venusaur, Tentacruel, Gallade, Raikou, Moltres, Qwilfish, Ludicolo, Froslass, Shaymin, Slowbro, Camerupt
S: Jirachi, Tyranitar
A+: Latias, Heatran, Clefable, Breloom, Swampert, Rotom, Skarmory
A: Gengar, Gyarados, Metagross, Dragonite, Magnezone, Gliscor, Zapdos, Empoleon, Bronzong, Infernape
A-: Flygon, Suicune, Machamp, Milotic, Roserade, Azelf, Uxie, Kingdra, Hippowdon, Starmie, Lucario
B+: Blissey, Celebi, Togekiss, Scizor, Nidoqueen
B: Forretress, Abomasnow, Heracross, Mamoswine, Donphan, Rhyperior
B-: Gastrodon, Quagsire, Venusaur, Tentacruel, Gallade, Raikou, Moltres, Qwilfish, Ludicolo, Froslass, Shaymin, Slowbro, Camerupt
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excal clearly aint a man of culture
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excal clearly aint a man of culture
Controversial Take - Tyranitar is A+ tier behind Rotom-a ( My opinion )
Tyranitar has many strengths like its special defence stat, but I feel like many of its sets just don't do much damage. Machamp, Breloom, Jirachi, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Nidoqueen just to name a few check Tyranitar very well. Tyranitar on the other hand is only good against Starmie, whilst taking a chunk from surf/hydro if not running Passho. It is good against Rotom-a, but gets burnt and is pretty much death fodder if not running a special move. It is a good check to Zapdos without many drawbacks. It is a good check to electric type special attackers like Jolteon, Magnezone.
Therefore Tyranitar is a good check to specific pokemon, but has to play a crunch or pursuit guess game with some of them. After it possibly kills one of these threats it can be set up on by lucario and machamp if it is locked into a choice move. Mixed can be handled by Nidoqueen/hippowdon/jirachi/machamp ( However it can get stealth rock ). Dragon dance can be handled by Breloom's mach punch if not Chople and Scizors bullet punch if not holding a Babiri berry and is also walled the counters mentioned above. The Subpunch variant is only good for stall, but cant do much besides that. You can get creative and surprise the opponent with ice beam, thunder wave, but generally it is pretty easy to play around.
Tyranitar is one of the best special walls in the game and is great addition on any terms weak to electric attacks and special attacks in general, but it is very easy to wall even when you don't know its set. In conclusion even if it may not be behind rotom and heatran, it is quite a bit behind Jirachi. Jirachi is definately the best pokemon in Dpp by a long shot.
It is still great pokemon, I believe its best set is choice band as it hits much harder when its counters switch in.
Tyranitar has many strengths like its special defence stat, but I feel like many of its sets just don't do much damage. Machamp, Breloom, Jirachi, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Nidoqueen just to name a few check Tyranitar very well. Tyranitar on the other hand is only good against Starmie, whilst taking a chunk from surf/hydro if not running Passho. It is good against Rotom-a, but gets burnt and is pretty much death fodder if not running a special move. It is a good check to Zapdos without many drawbacks. It is a good check to electric type special attackers like Jolteon, Magnezone.
Therefore Tyranitar is a good check to specific pokemon, but has to play a crunch or pursuit guess game with some of them. After it possibly kills one of these threats it can be set up on by lucario and machamp if it is locked into a choice move. Mixed can be handled by Nidoqueen/hippowdon/jirachi/machamp ( However it can get stealth rock ). Dragon dance can be handled by Breloom's mach punch if not Chople and Scizors bullet punch if not holding a Babiri berry and is also walled the counters mentioned above. The Subpunch variant is only good for stall, but cant do much besides that. You can get creative and surprise the opponent with ice beam, thunder wave, but generally it is pretty easy to play around.
Tyranitar is one of the best special walls in the game and is great addition on any terms weak to electric attacks and special attacks in general, but it is very easy to wall even when you don't know its set. In conclusion even if it may not be behind rotom and heatran, it is quite a bit behind Jirachi. Jirachi is definately the best pokemon in Dpp by a long shot.
It is still great pokemon, I believe its best set is choice band as it hits much harder when its counters switch in.
You’re forgetting to mention sand. Which is a really big thing to forget. And the unpredictability of tar which can make it extremely hard for the opponent to respond. Tyra it’s has access to moves that can beat or significantly chunk each of the counters you mentioned. It also has the ability to run tons of different items to adapt itself to any meta game. For example when scissor was common it would sometimes run the steel berry (forget the name), Pashto berry to beat starmie, band which destroys a lot of stall and balance builds (and is almost impossible for offense to switch into if the tar user is able to position correctly), scarf which removes a lot of key Pokémon for bulky teams to deal with, dd which is a huge threat with its coverage, and other more team specific stuff it can do (roar is cool on spikes teams just as an aside) yes it loses to a lot of things but 1v1 but all of them have trouble getting in if the tar user is aggressive/ knowledgeable enough about the tier to know what could be coming. Definitely a clear second best mon in the tier to me because it brings value to every game to an extent not matched by any poke but jirachi. Also if anything it’s even better now that dug is gone, particularly choices sets.
Yeah, I forgot to mention sand. What I don't agree with is that even though it can adapt to the meta game, it has many hard counters and in some matches struggle to do much other than tank a few special hits/trap a mon/set stealth rock up/ set sand. I believe its worst trait is having predictable moves that can be played around easily.
The only good sets I believe are choice band and choice scarf. I understand that tyranitar may not be behind rotom-a and heatran, but I believe that it shouldn't be in S tier and should be the top of A* tier. Jirachi for me is the number one pokemon of dpp due to its goods stats and sheer unpredictability.
Gamer1234556
"Because... Scald is a shit Ferro answer!!!"
It's really hard to warrant a drop for a mon with such a spanning influence as Tyranitar's.
I mean sure, it has a lot of checks thanks to its awful defensive typing but it also has a lot of ways around those checks.
252+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think your problem is that you don't really know how to use Tar properly, hence your overall disappointment. I can understand that. But saying it doesn't deserve S Tier requires a much better explanation than what you provided.
I mean sure, it has a lot of checks thanks to its awful defensive typing but it also has a lot of ways around those checks.
Of the checks that you listed, only Physically-Defensive Hippowdown can switch into any of Tyranitar's sets safely. Machamp can only really switch into the Mixed Set. Breloom can't switch into any Tar Set at all thanks to Tar's Coverage. Jirachi and Bronzong also have to be wary of Tar's Coverage and Dark Moves and Queen is screwed if it has Earthquake. I don't see at all how you can call Tyranitar 'predictable' especially when you have to make a guessing game of what can switch in safely and what can't.
So you are telling me that it isn't good against Clefable or Blissey? With Clefable being everywhere, being able to switch into it and threaten it with a Pursuit-Trap or Superpower is huge in the current metagame. The fact that it also traps Latias really well should not be undermined either.
But the reward of removing said mon, whether it be Latias, Clefable or any other crucial mon, would offset any sort of damage that using Tar may have caused. And it's not like you have other ways to deal with SD Lucario and Champ.
Neither of which actually KO Tar at full health even with Chople/Babiri Berry.
252+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think your problem is that you don't really know how to use Tar properly, hence your overall disappointment. I can understand that. But saying it doesn't deserve S Tier requires a much better explanation than what you provided.
Can anyone please explain to me why Quagsire is so high? I've used the default set smogon provides, and while I can attest that it works, it always appears somewhat lackluster, and I can't say it is better than Rhyperior, Jolteon, Tentacruel or Aerodactyl.
Is there something I am missing about it?
Is there something I am missing about it?
Katy
Banned deucer.
while
is a niche option on some dpp teams, it can make use of its rather good typing in water/ground and can check most physical threats such as metagross, tyranitar, and dragonite, as it offers a lot of functionality with recover and toxic, which are great options always. quagsire can also deal with opposing water-types due to water absorb, such as choice band-gyarados and can dish out a toxic onto it or forcing a switch. it can also deal with rotoms, as ground leaves it immune to thunderbolt, making it a great immunity on defensive teams. it can also help vs magnezone, but quagsire has to be careful around hp grass zone variants, but other than that it can be a roadblock against magnezone.
this is quagsires niche and that niche is big enough to make it a B ranked pokemon, as it checks many dangerous staples in the metagame with its great typing, has water absorb, to switch into water-attacks, and with toxic and recover it can be an annoying presence, it also acts as a roadblock to many dangerous and amazing electric-types in the metagame. this is why quagsire warants a rather decent place in the DPP OU vr.
I did the damage calculation, and metagross will do 39.5 to 46.78% damage against quagsire with its earthquake, or 29.6 to 35% with its meteor mash. This will leave quagsire having to recover on the switch in. After one recovery it will have to do so again, and possibly again, risking a critical hit. Once it does get a hit in, the opponent could switch, leaving quagsire at less than full health and unable to switch in to metagross again.while
it can also deal with rotoms, as ground leaves it immune to thunderbolt, making it a great immunity on defensive teams. it can also help vs magnezone, but quagsire has to be careful around hp grass zone variants, but other than that it can be a roadblock against magnezone.
this is quagsires niche and that niche is big enough to make it a B ranked pokemon, as it checks many dangerous staples in the metagame with its great typing, has water absorb, to switch into water-attacks, and with toxic and recover it can be an annoying presence, it also acts as a roadblock to many dangerous and amazing electric-types in the metagame. this is why quagsire warants a rather decent place in the DPP OU vr.
It is the same deal with an all purpose tTar, which does 37.3 to 44.1% against it with crunch. Quagsire will be unable to switch in safely, although it could perhaps predict a resisted move like fire blast.
Regarding dragonite, it cannot switch into the mixed variant, and will take 68.7 to 80.9% damage from a draco bomb. If it takes a fire blast first, then it will lose a minimum of 19.5%, so after stealth rock dragonites 2nd attack will have a 56% chance to KO it.
Furthermore, an unboosted outrage by dragonite does between 77.6 and 91.6% to quagsire. So it cant swap into the physical variant either.
So to conclude, quagsire cannot swap into metagross, tyranitar or dragonite safely. While it is possible for it to work, it is incredibly risky business requiring low damage rolls or good prediction, or both. It can only come in safely once something else has gone down, or on a predicted switch. However, quagsire can't really do much back, so the payoff from this switch quite low.
I would say its best niche is not just to check strong physical threats (although it does do that pretty decently), but to make use of its great defensive typing + Water Absorb. This lets it check pretty much every Water-type mainly (Starmie, non-Taunt Gyarados, Suicune, non-Grass Knot Empoleon), along with some Fire- and Electric-types that are lacking Grass-type coverage.
Not exactly true in practice to consider this a 'win' for Metagross. You forgot to mention that this is Life Orb Metagross, so simply tanking the hits and Recovering means Quagsire wins this exchange.
Actually, that sounds like a perfectly safe switchin. Crunch doesn't 2HKO, so you can switch in and Recover off the damage, and no coverage move will hurt it (as opposed to Gliscor and Ice Beam, Skarmory and Fire Blast, etc.). Pair it with Stealth Rock and Spikes and Tyranitar will fall eventually. (Edit: although relying on Quagsire as Tyranitar check is of course a recipe for disaster if you're facing CBTar)
I stand corrected.
I stand by what I said regarding all purpose Tyranitar however. Checking the probabilities, we can assess the degree to which this exchange is RNG based.
My criteria for losing the matchup is for a critical hit or defence drop to occur during the time in which Quagsire switches in and has to recover. If a defence drop occurs, then Quagsire will take a minimum of 55% damage on the next hit, leaving it unable to stay in, for most situations. If a critical hit occurs Quagsire will take 74.8% minimum, putting it in worse situation.
For sake of simplicity, let assume that Tyranitar always gets its lowest rolls, (when I play I usually assume highest rolls, for what its worth). If the matchup is still bad considering this, then it certainly wont be better assuming higher rolls. Since we are assuming low rolls, Quagsire only needs to recover once before it gets off its first attack.
The probability of at least one defence drop occurring in 3 attacks is equal to 1 minus the probability of it not occurring. The same is true for a critical hit, and the probability of either occurring is equal to there sum, minus the intersection of the two events.
So we have the probability of at least one defence drop being: 1-(0.8)^3=0.488
The probability of at least one critical hit: 1-(0.9375)^3=0.176
The probability of either occurring is: 0.488+0.176- 0.488*0.176=0.578112. Which is 57%.
So there is a 57% chance that Quagsire receives at least one defence drop or critical hit in the 3 attacks it needs to sponge to get off a single earthquake, yawn, or toxic.
And as a reminder, this calculation assumed the lowest rolls possibles, and that that Tyranitiar only ran 144 attack EVs (albeit with a lonely nature). A similar outcome occurs with scarf Tyranitar, and a worse one with choice band. After a single dance, a dancing Tyranitar will do 45.6% do Quagsire, and sire in turn will do at most 30.2% with earthquake, plus its toxic or yawn might not work due the the possibility of lum berry on the dancing variants.
I think it is safe to say that for the most commonly run variants of Tyranitar in Christmas 2020, Quagsire is not a safe switch in (unless you predict a fire blast).
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I'm not gonna bother with an extensive reply to your post, since I think it will derail the thread in a pointless direction. I just want to clarify here that I already mentioned that Quagsire is not a reliable check to Choice Band Tyranitar and you thus need an additional check (one of the most popular teams had Skarmory, for example). Quagsire just allows you to pivot around mixed Tyranitars which might carry a coverage move for your other switchins.
What I don't really understand is why you ask for a clarification on the niche of Quagsire, and then completely ignore my explanation of what makes it good and only focus on trying to retort these side notes. It seems like you are not actually interested in the use of Quagsire, but are more interested in trying to win some kind of argument that isn't really there.
Im reading a lot of messy stuff there, I didn't want to post at first but the subject (does Quagsire checks Ttar?) is really not worth discussing so I'll try to add my contribution in order to make things clearer if possible.
Firstly, people should not use Careful Quagsire in order to check physical attackers (with the exception of Jirachi because it relies on chip damage that can be negated thanks to leftovers + sandstorm immunity).
As Oatmon proved with sharpened mathematics, Careful Quagsire switching in physical attackers is a bit too risky considering the chance to get a critical hit, Defense drop (Crunch) or Attack raise (Meteor Mash). Especially, if the circle is repeated (Quag doesn't retaliate in those MUs, it is forced to Recover leaving the attacker out of danger), it provides more and more opportunities for this to happens and makes the fishing for haxx road really easy and worth going for.
Careful Quagsire should be nothing more than a backup option for those physical attackers. As an example, yes, it is bad at switching into Crunch from Ttar. However, it does quite a good job at switching into Fire Blast. Despite the fact that it shouldn't be the premier Ttar check, It might be worth considering alongside Skarmory/Forretress in order to solidify a team against Ttar for example.
I will also give my own take on that:
Can anyone please explain to me why Quagsire is so high? I've used the default set smogon provides, and while I can attest that it works, it always appears somewhat lackluster, and I can't say it is better than Rhyperior, Jolteon, Tentacruel or Aerodactyl.
Quagsire is so high because ground water dual typing is a blessing: rock resist, sand immune, Iron Head resist, STAB EQ. It has the ability to soft check Heatran, Jirachi and Tyranitar which are the scariest and most popular threats (yes, it must watch out for a lot of stuff but still). Then, it is also pretty decent at checking a wide variety of special/physical attackers as well as the nightmarish Jirachi and thus for long term (checking Jirachi long term alrdy justifies a place in OU btw) because unlike Swampert it has Recover.. It can bring a water immunity so stuff like Milotic (surf stings quite hard, some teams hate to switch into it and even with a Clef in the back you ideally wanna avoid those dmg), Suicune or even CB Gyarados/Specs Starmie don't instantly get immovable objects or "pick one" factors. Last but not least, Encore lets it's weak offensive presence not being abusable too freely by set up moves.
All that Quagsire brings in one mon + being sand immune/rock resistant is absolutely unique and justifies the niche it always had in OU. Unfortunatly for it, its weak base stats contribute to its low usage (can't blindly switch in it into Ttar and must watch out for a lot of stuff in general) + the lack of SR making it so unsplashable justifies more or less a ranking around b-. "it always appears somewhat lackluster" always might be exagerated (how can a water ground type be bad? ;_; you either don't use it well or incorpate it in wrong team structures). Such a pokemon with godlike stats would easily hit the top of the VR.
Classic Mag Stall structure and Forry Stall structure, both seem to appreciate what Quaggy brings to the table. I'm not that hyped on balance/bulky offense with Quaggy. The only exception is the very weird stuff with Umbreon that Excal came with for the reason that Umbreon has specific traits that ends up fixing some issue quagsire brings thus allowing different patterns to work with. Quagsire might work in specific GFW balance or different kind of Mag Stall structures but very unexplored for my part (I can see venusaur having merit as well as Heatran).
Impish Damp + scarf Magnezone could even use curse. Quag doesn't "need" water absorb to be workable (see Swampert and Gastrodon + offensive Starmie has never been that low in usage. Also if you wanna know what Impish Quag does, imagine Swampert with Recover without stealth rock and you got it, this one doesn't care about "all purpose" Ttar). However, when the specific factors scarf magnezeone + water checks (like clef + Lati) are coupled, damp makes a lot of sense for the reason that Metagross and Bronzong are 2 steals against which scarf Magnezone is really bad. So what? They will end up booming something and especially if Jirachi get trapped it's a really easy boom for OTR Zong/AgiliGross. Impish Quag is a permanent wall to these 2 thanks to damp preventing them from exploding which makes the opponent unable to make progress. Not saying that it's the new wave or anything but this can, in fact, really ruin the gameplan of boomers + dd nite/tar for example as it's impossible to trade for progress.
Hope I helped with that.
Firstly, people should not use Careful Quagsire in order to check physical attackers (with the exception of Jirachi because it relies on chip damage that can be negated thanks to leftovers + sandstorm immunity).
As Oatmon proved with sharpened mathematics, Careful Quagsire switching in physical attackers is a bit too risky considering the chance to get a critical hit, Defense drop (Crunch) or Attack raise (Meteor Mash). Especially, if the circle is repeated (Quag doesn't retaliate in those MUs, it is forced to Recover leaving the attacker out of danger), it provides more and more opportunities for this to happens and makes the fishing for haxx road really easy and worth going for.
Careful Quagsire should be nothing more than a backup option for those physical attackers. As an example, yes, it is bad at switching into Crunch from Ttar. However, it does quite a good job at switching into Fire Blast. Despite the fact that it shouldn't be the premier Ttar check, It might be worth considering alongside Skarmory/Forretress in order to solidify a team against Ttar for example.
I will also give my own take on that:
Can anyone please explain to me why Quagsire is so high? I've used the default set smogon provides, and while I can attest that it works, it always appears somewhat lackluster, and I can't say it is better than Rhyperior, Jolteon, Tentacruel or Aerodactyl.
Quagsire is so high because ground water dual typing is a blessing: rock resist, sand immune, Iron Head resist, STAB EQ. It has the ability to soft check Heatran, Jirachi and Tyranitar which are the scariest and most popular threats (yes, it must watch out for a lot of stuff but still). Then, it is also pretty decent at checking a wide variety of special/physical attackers as well as the nightmarish Jirachi and thus for long term (checking Jirachi long term alrdy justifies a place in OU btw) because unlike Swampert it has Recover.. It can bring a water immunity so stuff like Milotic (surf stings quite hard, some teams hate to switch into it and even with a Clef in the back you ideally wanna avoid those dmg), Suicune or even CB Gyarados/Specs Starmie don't instantly get immovable objects or "pick one" factors. Last but not least, Encore lets it's weak offensive presence not being abusable too freely by set up moves.
All that Quagsire brings in one mon + being sand immune/rock resistant is absolutely unique and justifies the niche it always had in OU. Unfortunatly for it, its weak base stats contribute to its low usage (can't blindly switch in it into Ttar and must watch out for a lot of stuff in general) + the lack of SR making it so unsplashable justifies more or less a ranking around b-. "it always appears somewhat lackluster" always might be exagerated (how can a water ground type be bad? ;_; you either don't use it well or incorpate it in wrong team structures). Such a pokemon with godlike stats would easily hit the top of the VR.
Classic Mag Stall structure and Forry Stall structure, both seem to appreciate what Quaggy brings to the table. I'm not that hyped on balance/bulky offense with Quaggy. The only exception is the very weird stuff with Umbreon that Excal came with for the reason that Umbreon has specific traits that ends up fixing some issue quagsire brings thus allowing different patterns to work with. Quagsire might work in specific GFW balance or different kind of Mag Stall structures but very unexplored for my part (I can see venusaur having merit as well as Heatran).
Hope I helped with that.
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Please do not misunderstand my intent. I did not try to be argumentive or ignore what you said, I took it seriously and spent quite a bit of effort to verify it for myself. I apologise if I offended you in any way.
For what it's worth I did the calculations for Starmie and Empoleon as well, but found nothing in disagreement there, so I didn't think it was worth mentioning. I posted the calculations simply because a lot of people were in agreement with the answers provided by yourself and @Katy, however the sample set did not conform to those responses, so I thought that more discussion was warranted.
And I think that this discussion is perfectly in line with this thread. Providing calculations, and discussing which sets and teams to use on the Pokemon listed in these rankings, improves understanding of the generation for the readers of this thread.
This was in reference to the times I had used it myself. Up until recently it had been somewhat lackluster in every game, however this changed once I learnt which threats it could safely deal with.
You did, thank you. Tomahawk and Katy, have also.
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