DPP Sand Veil

What's the rationale behind this? If something is broken with Sand Veil, you should really just target that instead of also banning multiple Pokemon that are not broken. If the argument's that the mechanic itself is uncompetitive, Snow Cloak doesn't deserve a pass simply because it's less common.
 

august

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What's the rationale behind this? If something is broken with Sand Veil, you should really just target that instead of also banning multiple Pokemon that are not broken. If the argument's that the mechanic itself is uncompetitive, Snow Cloak doesn't deserve a pass simply because it's less common.
As a council, we want to remove things that are problems, not things that might become problems. Precedence for decisions like this can be seen by the BW Council's decision to ban Arena Trap but not Shadow Tag - an ability that has all of the caveats of Arena Trap and more, but is distributed across mons that are, well, not good. Addressing this situation, Jimmy Turtwig eloquently said "the concrete state of the metagame means that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are two very different things, with sand being omnipresent and hail being rare".He isn't wrong either, Sand setters have been used 59 times this SPL in DPP. Abomasnow has been used 0 times (reference: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-x-weekly-usage-stats.3646001/)
 

DragonWhale

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Banlist before:
Code:
'Diglett + Sand Veil', 'Dugtrio + Sand Veil', 'Gligar + Sand Veil', 'Gliscor + Sand Veil', 'Swinub + Snow Cloak', 'Piloswine + Snow Cloak', 'Mamoswine + Snow Cloak'
Banlist now: Sand Veil

Why would this be a bad change when the previous clause explicitly bans ability + Pokemon combinations [insert Blaze Blaziken meme here]. More consistent ban policy across generations is a good thing.
 
As a council, we want to remove things that are problems, not things that might become problems. Precedence for decisions like this can be seen by the BW Council's decision to ban Arena Trap but not Shadow Tag - an ability that has all of the caveats of Arena Trap and more, but is distributed across mons that are, well, not good. Addressing this situation, Jimmy Turtwig eloquently said "the concrete state of the metagame means that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are two very different things, with sand being omnipresent and hail being rare".He isn't wrong either, Sand setters have been used 59 times this SPL in DPP. Abomasnow has been used 0 times (reference: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-x-weekly-usage-stats.3646001/)
Sorry, I didn't realize Sandshrew was already a legitimate problem, not just a potential one like Froslass in hail. The BW Arena Trap ban was also handled poorly and not a precedent worth following. I don't really see what the extremely small sample size of SPL proves. Can you just explain why this ability needs to be quick banned from a decade-old format?
Banlist before:
Code:
'Diglett + Sand Veil', 'Dugtrio + Sand Veil', 'Gligar + Sand Veil', 'Gliscor + Sand Veil', 'Swinub + Snow Cloak', 'Piloswine + Snow Cloak', 'Mamoswine + Snow Cloak'
Banlist now: Sand Veil

Why would this be a bad change when the previous clause explicitly bans ability + Pokemon combinations [insert Blaze Blaziken meme here]. More consistent ban policy across generations is a good thing.
If that's really what it was, that's also poorly devised on multiple levels, unless I missed when Swinub was breaking games. That's a problem that can be fixed without other unnecessary bans, though.
 

Lutra

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I think it was intended like this:

Banlist before:

If Pokémon N's selected ability is Sand Veil, and Pokémon N's ability count is greater than 1, prevent challenge.
If Pokémon N's selected ability is Snow Cloak, and Pokémon N's ability count is greater than 1, prevent challenge.

Banlist now:

If Pokémon N's selected ability is Sand Veil, prevent challenge.

I don't think the standard set of tiers should allow for any Pokémon to be banned to a tier where using it makes your team less competitive on average, if not always. In practice, tiering hasn't gotten that far to allow every Pokémon to be played, but I think it is wrong to rule out the dream. I think there probably isn't an easy ban solution if you want to keep the tier as close to possible to what it is, though.
 

august

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Sorry, I didn't realize Sandshrew was already a legitimate problem, not just a potential one like Froslass in hail. The BW Arena Trap ban was also handled poorly and not a precedent worth following. I don't really see what the extremely small sample size of SPL proves. Can you just explain why this ability needs to be quick banned from a decade-old format?
No one is saying that Sandshrew is a problem, we (as a governing council) favor a single ban over multiple complex bans. KISS. Keep it simple stupid. Following this identical principle, we argue that Snow Cloak is not worthy of a ban. If it becomes a problem, we will look at it. There is nothing wrong with moving adaptively through tiering.

To answer the question of "why does it need to be banned": for something to be worthy of a ban, it needs to be both uncompetitive and the state of the metagame needs to enable it to find its way into teams. Snow Cloak spam, at its root, is uncompetitive, I agree. However, with only one hail setter available and sand setters being on over 50% of teams, you are hard pressed to fit such a strategy cohesively into a team. These types of teams often require quite a lot of support - a rapid spinner, lures / trappers for sand setters, Abomasnow itself and a Snow Cloak abuser means that the team is already predetermined up to a couple of degrees of freedom. The same cannot be said for Sand Veil abusers, which require considerably less support.

If that's really what it was, that's also poorly devised on multiple levels, unless I missed when Swinub was breaking games. That's a problem that can be fixed without other unnecessary bans, though.
Great, give me an outline that makes everyone happy and i'll put it into action immediately

also, this is not "new news". sand veil has been banned before (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sand-veil-in-dpp.3558511/page-3#post-6603062)
 
Great, give me an outline that makes everyone happy and i'll put it into action immediately
You will never please everyone, which is why it's important to be able to actually justify any ban you want to implement. They should be able to stand the test of time. Any ban you make will be challenged some day, probably multiple times, and it's important to have reasonable cause behind it if you want it to actually be final. With that in mind, I would be happy to offer 4 solutions that at least make more sense to me and also don't screw up lower tiers. You probably won't like them all, but they are all worth genuinely considering.

1) Ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil. This is straightforward and fixes the issue completely. Missing due to SV becomes 100% on the fault of the attacker. When you decide in the teambuilder that you want to use sand, you accept the inherent risk, akin to picking Fire Blast over Flamethrower.

2) Ban Sand Stream. The combo of this and SV is apparently problematic. Looking at those stats you linked, Cacturne (a spiker with a supposedly busted ability) was used twice while sand was present on over half of teams. I think that's indicative of where the actual problem lies.

3) Ban Ttar. I said you probably wouldn't like them all, but we've been bending over backwards to keep it relevant for three generations now. Hippo + SV could very well still be an issue, but this tackles the most immediately problematic part of the equation without indirectly damaging anything else.

4) Ban the SV mons that are actually busted in sand. It's making a lengthy ban list to ignore the larger issue, but it has less damaging effects than a blanket ban.
 

Finchinator

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These supposed alternatives are all worse than the current ban, in my opinion.

1) Ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil. This is straightforward and fixes the issue completely. Missing due to SV becomes 100% on the fault of the attacker. When you decide in the teambuilder that you want to use sand, you accept the inherent risk, akin to picking Fire Blast over Flamethrower.
Sure, this solves the problem of teams aiming to abuse these Pokemon under their own Sand, but calling it straightforward while protesting the current ban seems quite hypocritical. This is quite literally a more complicated version of just banning Sand Veil in order to minimize collateral while forgoing simplicity. I do not believe this aligns with the current priorities, but a member of the DPP Council can speak more on that.

2) Ban Sand Stream. The combo of this and SV is apparently problematic. Looking at those stats you linked, Cacturne (a spiker with a supposedly busted ability) was used twice while sand was present on over half of teams. I think that's indicative of where the actual problem lies.
No clue why you would propose this when it's entirely unrealistic and would deface the metagame, which is something we are actively trying to avoid.

3) Ban Ttar. I said you probably wouldn't like them all, but we've been bending over backwards to keep it relevant for three generations now. Hippo + SV could very well still be an issue, but this tackles the most immediately problematic part of the equation without indirectly damaging anything else.
Read what I said for #2 -- it applies here, but also if you believe that we've been "bending over backwards" to keep Tyranitar "relevant" then you probably should not be commenting on these generations. Tyranitar is one of the naturally best Pokemon in generations 3-5 and it's quite good in the other generations it is available in, too.

4) Ban the SV mons that are actually busted in sand. It's making a lengthy ban list to ignore the larger issue, but it has less damaging effects than a blanket ban.
This is pretty comparable to the recent Ban Dugtrio vs. Ban Arena Trap debate. Banning Arena Trap ultimately was better when it appeared that Diglett was similarly problematic to Dugtrio, doing the same thing, but with a bit less overall viability/niche. If Cacturne can take over games, then who knows what else can. Do we really want to spend the next year or two progressively banning Sand Veil Pokemon instead of actually making a simple, straightforward ban like we are now, letting the metagame be fully competitive in the modern day without any potential exceptions? This is just a suboptimal route when compared to the current decision.
 
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TDK

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While discussing whether or not this is a just ban is one thing, acting like just because things like Sandshrew aren't broken with it so it shouldn't be banned is completely ridiculous. This snippet got axed in Hikari's updated version, but in Aldaron's Tiering Policy Framework, he said this:

b.) However, just because something isn't highly distributed, like Shadow Tag, doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy. Some tried to state that Shadow Tag wouldn't be broken on a 10/10/10/10/10/10 BST mon, but this is the wrong way to look at it.
and I still believe this holds true. Comparing things with horrid BST to Pokemon that can actually do something to make a point is just dumb. If you want to make an argument against the ban you should bring up legitimate points and not talk about how "well Sunkern isn't broken with Swagger, so why ban Swagger?"

I never held a super strong opinion on Sand Veil in DPP, but it's not like just one Pokemon could run this and "cheese" its way to a win; it's been multiple Pokemon over time. We even banned Sand Veil before, as august touched on, so I don't see the big deal in redoing something that shouldn't have been undone in the first place. It's not like it's revisiting a decade old tier to drop a Pokemon that's been banned for ages (Latias), it's redoing something that was undone just under 2 years ago.

This ban also gets rid of the incredibly awful clause we had before, banning Sand Veil / Snow Cloak only if the Pokemon has a second potential ability (which should be removed now btw august), so I'm all for this change. The whole reason Sand Veil got brought up for a ban in the first place is because Sand Veil Gliscor is incredibly stupid and entirely luck based, but Gliscor without Sand Veil is a very valid and good Pokemon. Cacturne, while not anywhere nearly as potent as Gliscor was, offers a really stupid luck based element that has no business existing. Again, I didn't have a super strong opinion on taking Sand Veil stuff beyond Gliscor into account, but I absolutely think a Sand Veil ban is better than what we had before. And clearly, because this happened, the DPP Council surely thinks either blanketly banning Sand Veil as a whole was worthwhile, or the old clause was terrible (which it was).

I would be happy to offer 4 solutions that at least make more sense to me and also don't screw up lower tiers.
I'm not sure if the last part is just a personal wish or something you think should seriously be taken into account, but I hope it's not the latter. Despite the fact I love lower tiers, old gen lower tiers should be absolutely irrelevant when making bans in old gen OUs. The effects that bans have on lower tiers shouldn't even be taken into account in modern gens, much less old gens where metagames that aren't even actively played or have any tournament representation, or honestly hold much relevance in the first place. There's nothing wrong with loving old gen lower tiers at all, but to act like they should be held in similar regard to a tier that will be played actively on Smogon until the day the site gets shut down, is absurd.
 
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These supposed alternatives are all worse than the current ban, in my opinion.


Sure, this solves the problem of teams aiming to abuse these Pokemon under their own Sand, but calling it straightforward while protesting the current ban seems quite hypocritical. This is quite literally a more complicated version of just banning Sand Veil in order to minimize collateral while forgoing simplicity. I do not believe this aligns with the current priorities, but a member of the DPP Council can speak more on that.
Straightforward in that no Pokémon is banned. We're implementing a "complex ban" that is less complex than the current implementation and also than what some other gens have. It's not a hard concept for a beginner to grasp. Of course just banning Sand Veil is a more simple solution, but it has much more complicated effects in other tiers. Sure, you don't have to worry about that when dealing with a problem, but at least try to be mindful when possible?

No clue why you would propose this when it's entirely unrealistic and would deface the metagame, which is something we are actively trying to avoid.
At this point, DPP OU is hot off the presses. We just unbanned Latias, don't pretend you aren't open to significant change.

Read what I said for #2 -- it applies here, but also if you believe that we've been "bending over backwards" to keep Tyranitar "relevant" then you probably should not be commenting on these generations. Tyranitar is one of the naturally best Pokemon in generations 3-5 and it's quite good in the other generations it is available in, too.
You keep it relevant by keeping it OU. Instead, let's argue for a decade+ on shit like Chomp and Scor and Exa and Cact and who even knows what else because in an announcement OP and 2 direct responses to questions of why, no one has even expressed why this ban is needed in the first place.

This is pretty comparable to the recent Ban Dugtrio vs. Ban Arena Trap debate. Banning Arena Trap ultimately was better when it appeared that Diglett was similarly problematic to Dugtrio, doing the same thing, but with a bit less overall viability/niche. If Cacturne can take over games, then who knows what else can. Do we really want to spend the next year or two progressively banning Sand Veil Pokemon instead of actually making a simple, straightforward ban like we are now, letting the metagame be fully competitive in the modern day without any potential exceptions? This is just a suboptimal route when compared to the current decision.
Yes, this is extremely comparable to that ban I also proclaimed was terrible, I agree. That knee-jerk reaction of Diglet being broken in OU is genuinely more ridiculous than this. Do not pretend Cacturne is sweeping this small sample sized tour. It won one of two games, hardly some underdog major threat.
 
I'm not sure if the last is just a personal wish or something you think should seriously be taken into account, but I hope it's not the latter. Despite the fact I love lower tiers, old gen lower tiers should be absolutely irrelevant when making bans in old gen OUs. The effects that bans have on lower tiers shouldn't even be taken into account in modern gens, much less old gens where metagames that aren't even actively played or have any tournament representation, or honestly hold much relevance in the first place. There's nothing wrong with loving old gen lower tiers at all, but to act like they should be held in similar regard to a tier that will be played actively on Smogon until the day the site gets shut down, is absurd.
To be clear, these are not all suggestions I support, just ones that I consider better than this. I would also say doing nothing is both crap (cuz current solution is awful) and better than this. I would most support option 1 on my list. Not super afraid of a ttar test but I would much rather just not. I am prepared to argue if you think it's less broken than Cact, though.
 

TDK

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You entirely ignored the quote you posted so I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but your solutions are, in order

1) more complex than banning Sand Veil, which is what we should be striving to avoid in the first place and also not a solution, as people will just run Sand Veil and hope to face Sand, and considering Tyranitar has over 50% usage in SPL and has for the past 3 years, it's a safe bet it'll work out the majority of the time. I can absolutely assure you this will happen. Comparing it to running stuff like inaccurate moves is just stupid; using a more inaccurate move to reap other benefits is not something the opponent can do to try to win before the game even starts. Running Tyranitar/Hippowdon and worrying about getting lucked by Sand Veil, which is one of the few things in Pokemon where there's quite literally nothing more you can do than hope you don't get unlucky, bar run Aerial Ace (which no DPP OU Pokemon has ever run). It's more comparable to saying "well if you're not running a Pokemon with Own Tempo or Magic Bounce you're accepting the fact you could lose to Swagger."

2) the same thing as banning Sand Veil, except far worse for DPP OU, as this bans both Tyranitar and Hippowdon to... save Sandslash in DPP NU?

3) absolutely absurd and not even a remotely good solution. I know you're expecting backlash because "hurr banning Tyranitar" but it's actually so absurd to make a suggestion like this beyond just the fact you're suggesting we test Tyranitar, because not only is Tyranitar not broken, uncompetitive, luck based, or the issue at all in the first place, but also there's another Sand setter in Hippowdon who is extremely viable.

4) while you can think that banning Arena Trap was bad, simply because you disagree with it doesn't make it wrong. There was also a lot of debate in the thread saying the real problem was Arena Trap, and not Dugtrio. If you care to read it, you can see here. Also, I don't care to get into details but please don't act like you know Diglett wasn't going to get used in OU, because it was and saw usage when the Dugtrio test was posted the first time. I know because I made sure to take everything into account, as the current TL, and watched ladder and tour games during the timeframe. I'm not acting like Diglett was going to be the same thing or anywhere close, but please don't act like you'd rather see us ban Diglett from SM OU than ban Arena Trap. This case is also far more logical to ban the Ability over the Pokemon than Arena Trap, as not only are there multiple abusers, but the primary abuser in question has more tools than just being entirely luck based.

I really don't see how any of these solutions are better than just banning Sand Veil, unless you really want to preserve some lower tier Pokemon, which like I said before, is incredibly stupid.
 

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For what it's worth, I've been saying Ttar is broken for ages. And it is. It's a stupid fucking piece of overpowered shit. It effectively has cover legend-level stats vis-a-vis Rock-type SpD boost in Sandstorm and it's one of the best trappers in the game -- trapping itself being an inherently broken mechanic with really low distribution (for good reason) as evidenced by the Arena Trap ban -- plus good and unique typing, incredible versatility, etc. Sand Stream is a dumb broken ability because permanent chip damage weather ruins the potential of a shitload of things and alters KO breakpoints, nevermind is the only reason Sand Veil is a "problem" at all. SV is literally a null ability without SS. As I've said before, Tyranitar is the only pokemon that is so broken it got another Pokémon (Garchomp) banned instead of itself.

Hippo is still pretty good, but it's not as good as Ttar and the type overlap with Sand Veil users (sans Cacturne who is kinda ass anyway) make it much harder to balance a team around those combinations. I've also advocated for removing all permanent weather from OU in the past, though being willing to go that far I'm obviously an extreme minority. And at this point, nobody wants to make such a drastic change to the gen 3-5 metagames although Ttar isn't a huge problem in Gen 3 anyway. (It's Gen 4 where Tar gets really busted with the SpD boost, addition of Stone Edge, physical/special attack types being split from typing, etc. not to mention being a top user of the new Choice Scarf item.)

Diglett was similarly problematic to Dugtrio
... Is it really, though? :smogthink:

and I still believe this holds true. Comparing things with horrid BST to Pokemon that can actually do something to make a point is just dumb. If you want to make an argument against the ban you should bring up legitimate points and not talk about how "well Sunkern isn't broken with Swagger, so why ban Swagger?"
okay but Swagger is truly the dumbest ban Smogon ever concocted, it was literally banned for being annoying

Recall that Brightpowder was also banned as part of Evasion Clause for a time, even though literally nobody uses it because everyone knows it's a statistically subpar item. All that said, I don't disagree with banning Sand Veil. I mean, I disagree with it because I don't think Sand Veil is problematic -- the main problem is Sand Stream enabling it and SS is heavily overrepresented in the metagame because Tyranitar is broken, nevermind that Garchomp is already banned on its own so literally people are just griping about Gliscor -- but as far as alternatives if a simple Sand Veil ban is what people want (again), I'm happy to support it. I just don't like the idea of keeping Snow Cloak legal at the same time when it's literally the same thing. Same with Drizzle + Swift Swim in Gen 5 but not the other-weather equivalents (no longer true in OU today, though still true in lower tiers).
 
1) more complex than banning Sand Veil, which is what we should be striving to avoid in the first place and also not a solution, as people will just run Sand Veil and hope to face Sand, and considering Tyranitar has over 50% usage in SPL and has for the past 3 years, it's a safe bet it'll work out the majority of the time. I can absolutely assure you this will happen. Comparing it to running stuff like inaccurate moves is just stupid; using a more inaccurate move to reap other benefits is not something the opponent can do to try to win before the game even starts. Running Tyranitar/Hippowdon and worrying about getting lucked by Sand Veil, which is one of the few things in Pokemon where there's quite literally nothing more you can do than hope you don't get unlucky, bar run Aerial Ace (which no DPP OU Pokemon has ever run). It's more comparable to saying "well if you're not running a Pokemon with Own Tempo or Magic Bounce you're accepting the fact you could lose to Swagger."
Yes, it is a more complex solution to a complex problem. It's a surgical way to remove broken elements from an old format without actually banning the Pokemon residing there. If you want to use Ttar or Hippo under this, and you're genuinely worried about the threat of stray Sand Veil users, then you should account for that in teambuilding, sure. It's a boost in viability to SV mons (who aren't currently at absurd levels) and a slight detriment to a Pokemon on over half of all teams. How is that controversial? There are huge benefits to running a sand inducer, so yeah, it is quite like choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. It's actually a simpler decision, because sand itself is so strong that it's totally still worth the risk of running into random SVers so you can get the bountiful benefits of using Ttar.
2) the same thing as banning Sand Veil, except far worse for DPP OU, as this bans both Tyranitar and Hippowdon to... save Sandslash in DPP NU?
I mean, yeah, sand is pretty nuts. Outside of a small pool of Pokemon (who have high representation in this sand-centric meta), it essentially counteracts Lefties and equates running any other item with slowly getting worn down. The casual benefit of Lefties is pretty huge; GSC is a testament to how much the item can accomplish. An ability that causes a permanent reverse of Lefties on the majority of all Pokemon is wild. Stall wants sand, cuz it wants that effortless chip damage. Offense wants sand cuz it makes hitting those KOs just so much easier. There's a damn good reason permanent sand dominates the three OUs in which it exists.
3) absolutely absurd and not even a remotely good solution. I know you're expecting backlash because "hurr banning Tyranitar" but it's actually so absurd to make a suggestion like this beyond just the fact you're suggesting we test Tyranitar, because not only is Tyranitar not broken, uncompetitive, luck based, or the issue at all in the first place, but also there's another Sand setter in Hippowdon who is extremely viable.
Ttar is the most centralizing force in ADV, DPP, and BW. Its stats are fantastic, especially in DPP+. Its movepool is just phenomenal. Its typing is odd, but extremely nice, accentuating several of its best traits. I wouldn't act like sand isn't obviously uncompetitive, and especially not not broken. It's the main reason SV is seen as luck-based, so yeah, it does have that going for it. How are you still insisting the Pokemon on over half of teams is not the issue; it's that thing that was inconsistently used twice recently?
4) while you can think that banning Arena Trap was bad, simply because you disagree with it doesn't make it wrong. There was also a lot of debate in the thread saying the real problem was Arena Trap, and not Dugtrio. If you care to read it, you can see here. Also, I don't care to get into details but please don't act like you know Diglett wasn't going to get used in OU, because it was and saw usage when the Dugtrio test was posted the first time. I know because I made sure to take everything into account, as the current TL, and watched ladder and tour games during the timeframe. I'm not acting like Diglett was going to be the same thing or anywhere close, but please don't act like you'd rather see us ban Diglett from SM OU than ban Arena Trap. This case is also far more logical to ban the Ability over the Pokemon than Arena Trap, as not only are there multiple abusers, but the primary abuser in question has more tools than just being entirely luck based.
I'm sure Diglett saw a spike in usage after Dugtrio's ban. Naturally peeps will be curious if it can accomplish what its evo can. And, for the most part, it doesn't hold a candle to Trio. Oh, but it does pose a minuscule threat to Ttar. Can't have that, lol. Ttar's a pillar of the format and has been for years~
I really don't see how any of these solutions are better than just banning Sand Veil, unless you really want to preserve some lower tier Pokemon, which like I said before, is incredibly stupid.
I do want to preserve lower tier Pokemon from a totally unnecessary ban, yeah. That's not my only motivation, but it's certainly up there and it's not incredibly stupid by any stretch. When there are multiple solutions and damaging other formats can be avoided by most of them, you need some damn strong reasoning to say fuck it and go ahead with damaging shit. Problem is, I've yet to see this reasoning. It wasn't in the OP, where it should be. It wasn't in response to my 3 prior requests for it. At this point, I'm growing skeptical of it existing. From what I can tell, right now there's just a baseless reassurance that 5 dudes can generally agree that it's more fun this way. Cool.
 

TDK

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Yes, it is a more complex solution to a complex problem. It's a surgical way to remove broken elements from an old format without actually banning the Pokemon residing there. If you want to use Ttar or Hippo under this, and you're genuinely worried about the threat of stray Sand Veil users, then you should account for that in teambuilding, sure. It's a boost in viability to SV mons (who aren't currently at absurd levels) and a slight detriment to a Pokemon on over half of all teams. How is that controversial? There are huge benefits to running a sand inducer, so yeah, it is quite like choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. It's actually a simpler decision, because sand itself is so strong that it's totally still worth the risk of running into random SVers so you can get the bountiful benefits of using Ttar.
Say you're correct here in entirety (you're not). Even so, you totally missed my point which is that the issue here isn't people being able to run Sand Veil Pokemon alongside Tyranitar / Hippowdon, the issue is Sand Veil itself posing uncompetitive and extremely luck based. Let's, again, take a look at the Tiering Policy Framework:

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

  • This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
I think it's quite obvious you can see Sand Veil falling under this, no? Whether or not you think it's totally true is one thing, but surely you can understand the logic that it absolutely falls under this. So, if the issue here is Sand Veil, while banning the combination would mitigate the issue, it does not change the fact it could be / is ~uncompetitive~.

I mean, yeah, sand is pretty nuts. Outside of a small pool of Pokemon (who have high representation in this sand-centric meta), it essentially counteracts Lefties and equates running any other item with slowly getting worn down. The casual benefit of Lefties is pretty huge; GSC is a testament to how much the item can accomplish. An ability that causes a permanent reverse of Lefties on the majority of all Pokemon is wild. Stall wants sand, cuz it wants that effortless chip damage. Offense wants sand cuz it makes hitting those KOs just so much easier. There's a damn good reason permanent sand dominates the three OUs in which it exists.
As someone who actively plays DPP OU, I can assure you Tyranitar would still see a LOT of usage in DPP even without the fact sand passively chips Pokemon. This is also a discussion about banning Sand Veil, not Sand itself. If you'd like to argue that Sand is broken... be my guest, I guess. Regardless of the fact that banning Sand would make Sand Veil not broken, those are two totally separate points and I don't see how we should ban something that's not broken to neutralize something that is.

Ttar is the most centralizing force in ADV, DPP, and BW. Its stats are fantastic, especially in DPP+. Its movepool is just phenomenal. Its typing is odd, but extremely nice, accentuating several of its best traits. I wouldn't act like sand isn't obviously uncompetitive, and especially not not broken. It's the main reason SV is seen as luck-based, so yeah, it does have that going for it. How are you still insisting the Pokemon on over half of teams is not the issue; it's that thing that was inconsistently used twice recently?
Many, many Pokemon see astronomical usage and are not remotely broken. Landorus-T in OU, Primal Groudon in Ubers, Vullaby/Mienfoo in LC, Landorus-T/Incineroar in DOU, Clefable in ORAS OU, and many more examples. Usage does not mean a Pokemon is broken and the fact you're arguing it does is quite telling of why you're still arguing in the first place.

Tyranitar is absolutely not broken. It's just an incredible Pokemon that provides a lot of tools that no other Pokemon can replicate. I'm not going to get into why Tyranitar is or isn't broken because, again, this thread is about Sand Veil. If you'd like to argue Tyranitar is broken, feel free.

And, for the most part, it doesn't hold a candle to Trio. Oh, but it does pose a minuscule threat to Ttar. Can't have that, lol. Ttar's a pillar of the format and has been for years~
I'd like to reiterate something: I was the TL at the time. I was very actively involved in the metagame; playing a lot, building a ton, and watching a lot of games. You were not. The reason people used Diglett wasn't even for Tyranitar at all. But clearly we just want to use Tyranitar because Tyranitar is the centerpiece of every OU.

I do want to preserve lower tier Pokemon from a totally unnecessary ban, yeah. That's not my only motivation, but it's certainly up there and it's not incredibly stupid by any stretch. When there are multiple solutions and damaging other formats can be avoided by most of them, you need some damn strong reasoning to say fuck it and go ahead with damaging shit. Problem is, I've yet to see this reasoning. It wasn't in the OP, where it should be. It wasn't in response to my 3 prior requests for it. At this point, I'm growing skeptical of it existing. From what I can tell, right now there's just a baseless reassurance that 5 dudes can generally agree that it's more fun this way. Cool.
So, you're asking for an explanation on something, but totally ignoring why we should care in the slightest about lower tiers? I don't know why you elected to quote a previous post of mine where I say lower tiers should have no weight on the decision, but then entirely ignore the content of said post, but allow me to say it again: old gen lower tiers are irrelevant. You can enjoy them, you can play them, you can care about them; nothing wrong with any of that. But they aren't even real tiers anymore, and should hold absolutely zero weight in tiering decisions in OU. It is incredibly stupid to think that DPP UU / NU hold any semblance of weight compared to DPP OU. If you don't want these bans to change old gen lower tiers, then argue for it to be non transitive. Don't get OU to jump through hoops to assure your lower tiers don't get changed.

Like I've said multiple times, I don't hold a super strong opinion on this beyond preferring banning Sand Veil > the clause we had before, so I don't have any intention of arguing with you about this being necessary at all. But I absolutely think your solutions are far worse and backed by terrible logic.
 

Mr.E

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I only disagree with blanket banning Sand Veil alone. Snow Cloak has no reason to remain unbanned due to the arbitrary notion that Snow Cloak users aren't good enough to see regular play anyway when the fundamental problem of "well it can maybe cause someone to get lucked" remains. SC mons aren't even that bad anyway. Tyranitar being broken is a separate issue irrespective of Sand Stream.

"II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.


  • This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not."

I think it's quite obvious you can see Sand Veil falling under this, no? Whether or not you think it's totally true is one thing, but surely you can understand the logic that it absolutely falls under this. So, if the issue here is Sand Veil, while banning the combination would mitigate the issue, it does not change the fact it could be / is ~uncompetitive~.
I only "understand the logic" in the sense that Sand Veil is analogous to evasion moves, but I equate it more to Brightpowder which was also banned for a time but no longer is because the community realized it's bad and was a dumb ban.

As someone who actively plays DPP OU, I can assure you Tyranitar would still see a LOT of usage in DPP even without the fact sand passively chips Pokemon. This is also a discussion about banning Sand Veil, not Sand itself. If you'd like to argue that Sand is broken... be my guest, I guess. Regardless of the fact that banning Sand would make Sand Veil not broken, those are two totally separate points and I don't see how we should ban something that's not broken to neutralize something that is.

Tyranitar is absolutely not broken. It's just an incredible Pokemon that provides a lot of tools that no other Pokemon can replicate. I'm not going to get into why Tyranitar is or isn't broken because, again, this thread is about Sand Veil. If you'd like to argue Tyranitar is broken, feel free.
The fact that Tyranitar is so good you can cut its Special Defense by one-third plus null its ability that fundamentally alters how the game is played and it'd still be right at the top of the usage list doesn't suggest to you that it's broken as shit?

Sand isn't broken though, it's permanent Sand that's broken. Well, maybe "broken" isn't the correct word to use, as really it's more a question of what we as a community prefer as a standard metagame. It fundamentally alters the gameplay as much as, say, entry hazards or items. I personally consider permanent weather extremely undesirable, because permanent Sand/Hail breaks a shitton of other minor game mechanics (like Focus Sash as an item) and permanent Rain/Sun simply enable overwhelming raw strength (overpowered-but-limited abilities like SS/Chloro, a massive damage boost, etc.), but I'm obviously a minority so it's whatever. The fact that it enables Sand Veil is worth mentioning when it comes to people whining about how broken SV is, though. SV literally does nothing on its own!

(also Primal Groudon is broken but the whole point of playing Ubers is so you can use broken mons)
 
I don't have much to add besides this.

Cacturne is one of the only viable spikers in DPP outside of Roserade, Skarmory, and Forretress, it soft checks enough [Rotom-A, Starmie (plenty don't run Ice Beam), Swampert] that it is viable, especially with Sand Veil. I'd really hate to see it go because of a couple of meme games in SPL. It adds a pretty creative element that outweighs the cons.

10+ years of DPP and it hasn't been a problem. I think we should wait and reevaluate after DPP open.
 

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