Oof, forgot the slow exp group and that Skorupi isn't part Dark yet, that could be annoying. I wasn't going to replay the games anytime, but I agree A is a stretch compared to the other A tiers, B is more fair imo with Haunter, Machoke, Golduck, etc.
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DPPt In-Game Tier List Thread v2
- Thread starter Volt-Ikazuchi
- Start date
- Status
While it's been a while since I've used it, Skorupi is terrible and shouldn't be anywhere near A or B...like at all.
Not to come off as harsh, but Skorupi has several flaws, as somewhat noted by Volt:
-Great Marsh mon. To recap according to Bulbapedia. "some Pokémon will not always appear in the Marsh. Each day, the Pokémon will change; therefore, to get a new set, players must wait a day. These Pokémon will appear randomly in one of the six areas; some may not appear for a while, while others may appear several days in a row or in multiple areas on the same day." On top of this, Skorupi also has a 120 catch rate, while Safari Balls have a 1.5x modifier similar to Great Balls, Skorupi also has a pretty darn high flee rate of 47.1%. So yeah, this can be kinda annoying to even get.
-Second point: the movepool is bad, like, really bad.
You're basically forced to TM Poison Jab from Route 212 on after you get Surf, which is still a good ways away if you pick up Skorupi prior to Maylene, and you'll likely be stuck with Skorupi until you get Surf too, which is...fun. And we all know how bad Poison STAB is, even in-game.
I mean sure you can TM Swords Dance on for coins, but with how much you already kind of have to go out of your way to even GET Skorupi optimally, you might as well just use another Pokemon at this point. Same for coverage moves like Brick Break or Dig: you're just overcompensating for how terrible the movepool is. Seriously? Level 49 for Crunch, that's awful.
-What matchups does this thing even have? Lucian and that's basically it for everything it hits super-effectively with STABs aside from like...Candice's Froslass and Abomasnow...and it's not like Ice types don't have a lot of weaknesses already?
Seriously, this thing deserves D, maybe even E in my opinion. Way too much effort to even get going, you don't get any immediately good matchups with it, and the terrible movepool along with just being effectively mono-Poison until the League (don't use Bug Bite or the fangs, neutral Jab literally hits about as hard as they do super-effectively minus like 10 BP for the fangs). If anyone can think of any redeeming qualities let me know, because I honestly can't find any. Toxicroak has similar issues, but at least there you don't have to wait until the League for good dual STAB (as you can TM Brick Break on).
Btw what are everyone's thoughts on Empoleon? Curious what people think about it, I think it's probably the worst of the three starters (even if we aren't supposed to compare them). You run BubbleBeam and Pluck for way too long on that thing it feels like.
Not to come off as harsh, but Skorupi has several flaws, as somewhat noted by Volt:
-Great Marsh mon. To recap according to Bulbapedia. "some Pokémon will not always appear in the Marsh. Each day, the Pokémon will change; therefore, to get a new set, players must wait a day. These Pokémon will appear randomly in one of the six areas; some may not appear for a while, while others may appear several days in a row or in multiple areas on the same day." On top of this, Skorupi also has a 120 catch rate, while Safari Balls have a 1.5x modifier similar to Great Balls, Skorupi also has a pretty darn high flee rate of 47.1%. So yeah, this can be kinda annoying to even get.
-Second point: the movepool is bad, like, really bad.
You're basically forced to TM Poison Jab from Route 212 on after you get Surf, which is still a good ways away if you pick up Skorupi prior to Maylene, and you'll likely be stuck with Skorupi until you get Surf too, which is...fun. And we all know how bad Poison STAB is, even in-game.
I mean sure you can TM Swords Dance on for coins, but with how much you already kind of have to go out of your way to even GET Skorupi optimally, you might as well just use another Pokemon at this point. Same for coverage moves like Brick Break or Dig: you're just overcompensating for how terrible the movepool is. Seriously? Level 49 for Crunch, that's awful.
-What matchups does this thing even have? Lucian and that's basically it for everything it hits super-effectively with STABs aside from like...Candice's Froslass and Abomasnow...and it's not like Ice types don't have a lot of weaknesses already?
Seriously, this thing deserves D, maybe even E in my opinion. Way too much effort to even get going, you don't get any immediately good matchups with it, and the terrible movepool along with just being effectively mono-Poison until the League (don't use Bug Bite or the fangs, neutral Jab literally hits about as hard as they do super-effectively minus like 10 BP for the fangs). If anyone can think of any redeeming qualities let me know, because I honestly can't find any. Toxicroak has similar issues, but at least there you don't have to wait until the League for good dual STAB (as you can TM Brick Break on).
Btw what are everyone's thoughts on Empoleon? Curious what people think about it, I think it's probably the worst of the three starters (even if we aren't supposed to compare them). You run BubbleBeam and Pluck for way too long on that thing it feels like.
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There are a bunch of routes with overworld rain near the mid-game, that's a pretty nice boost for what's arguably its weakest part.
Water/Steel is ridiculous defensively too.
It's definitely a mon that I never regretted using in casual runs, but I dunno how well it holds up under more strict conditions.
I honestly can't imagine any of the starters going below A. Ironically, I think Chimchar might be the one to struggle the most because it just gets folded by Roark if it doesn't evolve and especially due to said perma-rain routes on the mid-game robbing it of its otherwise reliable Flame Wheel.
Obviously, we all know Infernape is really good tho.
Overworld rain only appears on three routes, with one of those being entirely optional, and another one only has rain on 10 set days a year. I think rain is such a small difference that it's barely worth mentioning.
Piplup as a starter definitely has the most issues in my opinion. The main problem is that its early game is terrible. Bubble is such a bad STAB move that it doesn't even come close to 2HKO'ing Roarks Cranidos for instance, so Piplup actually just doesn't sweep him without luck or item support. It even misses the OHKO on Onix of all things, bubble is really that terrible. It doesn't get a STAB move until level 19. In DP this is even worse, because Prinplup gets bubblebeam at level 24 (!), which is absolutely unacceptable to me. It doesn't get any other special coverage either. Even with bubblebeam, it's not particularly strong or fast and all of its midgame gym fights are highly questionable. It obviously loses hard to Gardenia, it can't do much to Fantina unless you like using bide lol, and even Maylene is an unspectacular matchup.
When it evolves, both surf and specs are right around the corner, so Prinplup goes from being lackluster in all areas to an absolute powerhouse. This is the first time that the Piplup line feels like a high tier mon. It finally gets some good matchups against Wake, Byron, Candice and some Galactic admins during this period.
In the late game, problems come up again, this time with its speed in combination with its typing. Steel typing gives Empoleon a ton of resistances but it also gives a nasty weakness to ground an fighting, and a neutrality to fire. And as it turns out, those three types are rather common during the E4. Every E4 member except for Bertha has a fighting type for instance. Empoleon isn't very fast, so it's often forced to take super effective hits before it can retaliate with surf. Torterra has this issue as well, but it has rock polish to play around it. Torterra can actually abuse its many weaknesses to lure out specific threats. For example, you can set up rock polish against Cynthia's Lucario before you kill it with EQ. This lures out Milotic because it has ice beam, but since Torterra is faster now, you can whop Milotic with a super effective wood hammer. Empoleon doesn't have these kinds of options.
At the end of the day, Empoleon is still a super powerful specs surf bot, but it's a lot less versatile than the other starters. Its early game is not A-tier worthy to me at all, and I doubt that its late game is good enough to compensate for this. I'm currently doing a run with Piplup to see if it really should drop to B. DP Piplup in A in especially questionable to me, because again, it doesn't get a STAB until level 24.
Piplup as a starter definitely has the most issues in my opinion. The main problem is that its early game is terrible. Bubble is such a bad STAB move that it doesn't even come close to 2HKO'ing Roarks Cranidos for instance, so Piplup actually just doesn't sweep him without luck or item support. It even misses the OHKO on Onix of all things, bubble is really that terrible. It doesn't get a STAB move until level 19. In DP this is even worse, because Prinplup gets bubblebeam at level 24 (!), which is absolutely unacceptable to me. It doesn't get any other special coverage either. Even with bubblebeam, it's not particularly strong or fast and all of its midgame gym fights are highly questionable. It obviously loses hard to Gardenia, it can't do much to Fantina unless you like using bide lol, and even Maylene is an unspectacular matchup.
When it evolves, both surf and specs are right around the corner, so Prinplup goes from being lackluster in all areas to an absolute powerhouse. This is the first time that the Piplup line feels like a high tier mon. It finally gets some good matchups against Wake, Byron, Candice and some Galactic admins during this period.
In the late game, problems come up again, this time with its speed in combination with its typing. Steel typing gives Empoleon a ton of resistances but it also gives a nasty weakness to ground an fighting, and a neutrality to fire. And as it turns out, those three types are rather common during the E4. Every E4 member except for Bertha has a fighting type for instance. Empoleon isn't very fast, so it's often forced to take super effective hits before it can retaliate with surf. Torterra has this issue as well, but it has rock polish to play around it. Torterra can actually abuse its many weaknesses to lure out specific threats. For example, you can set up rock polish against Cynthia's Lucario before you kill it with EQ. This lures out Milotic because it has ice beam, but since Torterra is faster now, you can whop Milotic with a super effective wood hammer. Empoleon doesn't have these kinds of options.
At the end of the day, Empoleon is still a super powerful specs surf bot, but it's a lot less versatile than the other starters. Its early game is not A-tier worthy to me at all, and I doubt that its late game is good enough to compensate for this. I'm currently doing a run with Piplup to see if it really should drop to B. DP Piplup in A in especially questionable to me, because again, it doesn't get a STAB until level 24.
WAIT WAIT WAIT
Empoleon gets Swords Dance via Move Relearner?
Like, I know 86 Attack is nothing compared to 111 Special Attack and Specs Surf is probably the way you want to go, but Swords Dance Waterfall would still be kinda strong, and Aqua Jet would fix the Speed. Also gets Brick Break via TM, but like with Drapion - opportunity cost.
Just some food for thought, I know it's not the way most people would use the thing, but anything with SD without the TM is still pretty cool.
Also yeah, earlygame 20 BP Bubble sucks, definitely with you on that Magnus. It's odd how a mon with such a good defensive type ends up kinda underwhelming.
Empoleon gets Swords Dance via Move Relearner?
Like, I know 86 Attack is nothing compared to 111 Special Attack and Specs Surf is probably the way you want to go, but Swords Dance Waterfall would still be kinda strong, and Aqua Jet would fix the Speed. Also gets Brick Break via TM, but like with Drapion - opportunity cost.
Just some food for thought, I know it's not the way most people would use the thing, but anything with SD without the TM is still pretty cool.
Also yeah, earlygame 20 BP Bubble sucks, definitely with you on that Magnus. It's odd how a mon with such a good defensive type ends up kinda underwhelming.
I think Specs would be better tbh.
Shame Scarf ain't available, that would be a game changer.
Time to post some logs.
Just to clarify, I'm not battling any wilds, but I'm not using Repels just in case I run into a shiny. No Quick Claw because it's too unreliable. Similarly, I'm not using Hidden Power because it's also an RNG fiesta. I am however, beating all trainers because the level curve gets wild late-game, and beating all trainers guarantees Nat. Dex post-game, so it's something that I always keep in mind when running through Sinnoh.
No overleveling tho. No matter what.
Conclusion
Turtwig routs the entire Gym without any issues.
Starly can't get enough experience to evolve, so it's pretty much dead weight.
Even if it's not sniped by a stray Rock move, it's not doing anything back.
Not a good start for Starly. Reset to get back to Lv. 13.
Just to clarify, I'm not battling any wilds, but I'm not using Repels just in case I run into a shiny. No Quick Claw because it's too unreliable. Similarly, I'm not using Hidden Power because it's also an RNG fiesta. I am however, beating all trainers because the level curve gets wild late-game, and beating all trainers guarantees Nat. Dex post-game, so it's something that I always keep in mind when running through Sinnoh.
No overleveling tho. No matter what.
Uneventful beginning when it comes to starter pick, lucked out and got a Naive Turtwig.
Got a Bidoof as soon as I could, and went to Route 202 to hopefully get an Lv. 4 Starly, but sadly that didn't pan out. Lv. 3 one showed up first...
Aaaand it's Bold. No. 2nd attempt...
Sassy. I'm not even trying to min-max, I just want a nature that's not actively detrimental.
Third time is the charm?
Yes, it is! Jolly, max Def IVs.
Doesn't get much better than this. This is good since I'm trying to see whether or not it's S-Tier, so at least I don't need to worry about bad RNG murking up the results.
Well, kinda. The rest of the IVs aren't optimal but they're fairly average for the most part. The full stats will be posted before the Roark battle to not flood the post with images.
Starly gets rolling quickly. By the 2nd trainer, it can pretty much fight on its own even at Lv. 3.
Beat all trainers in and around Jubilife.
Got the TM10. Barry might have studied everything on the Trainer School but I still gotta teach him a lesson.
Turtwig and Starly cleave through the route trainers, no sweat.
It's important to note that despite only having 20BP, Absorb does well against mons weak to it.
Starly can't really help against the Oreburgh Mine trainers, with one notable exception, the one trainer with a Machop.
There's a clear problem though. All trainers are defeated. However, both mons
are only at Lv. 12. This means no Razor Leaf for Turtwig and no evolution for Starly.
It can't be helped. Time to rock.
Gym 1
First trainer. Six turns in. Starly vs Geodude. Of course, it spammed Defense Curl.
Not even 50%. That's not gonna work.
One good succ from Turtwig and problem solved.
I'm lactose-intolerant when it comes to In-Game. No cheese. No Double Team for Starly.
Even switch-grinding wasn't enough for Starly to evolve, which means it's likely to get folded like a chair by Roark.
But who knows, I've been wrong before.
Stat time.
Starly's Happiness was 119. (47,6 BP - Does it round up or down?)
This is more relevant to Platinum because the Return TM is much earlier. Return is already stronger than Quick Attack even this early in the game, but not as strong as Wing Attack.
Got a Bidoof as soon as I could, and went to Route 202 to hopefully get an Lv. 4 Starly, but sadly that didn't pan out. Lv. 3 one showed up first...
Aaaand it's Bold. No. 2nd attempt...
Sassy. I'm not even trying to min-max, I just want a nature that's not actively detrimental.
Third time is the charm?
Yes, it is! Jolly, max Def IVs.
Doesn't get much better than this. This is good since I'm trying to see whether or not it's S-Tier, so at least I don't need to worry about bad RNG murking up the results.
Well, kinda. The rest of the IVs aren't optimal but they're fairly average for the most part. The full stats will be posted before the Roark battle to not flood the post with images.
Starly gets rolling quickly. By the 2nd trainer, it can pretty much fight on its own even at Lv. 3.
Beat all trainers in and around Jubilife.
Got the TM10. Barry might have studied everything on the Trainer School but I still gotta teach him a lesson.
Turtwig at Lv. 8, Starly at Lv. 9.
Turtwig vs Starly was as exciting as expected from a first rival battle.
Mashing Tackle vs Mashing Growl. No issues though.
Starly's Wing Attack 3HKO'd Chimchar with the greatest of ease. No threat whatsoever. Scratch only did 5 damage and Starly outsped it.
Turtwig vs Starly was as exciting as expected from a first rival battle.
Mashing Tackle vs Mashing Growl. No issues though.
Starly's Wing Attack 3HKO'd Chimchar with the greatest of ease. No threat whatsoever. Scratch only did 5 damage and Starly outsped it.
Turtwig and Starly cleave through the route trainers, no sweat.
It's important to note that despite only having 20BP, Absorb does well against mons weak to it.
Starly can't really help against the Oreburgh Mine trainers, with one notable exception, the one trainer with a Machop.
There's a clear problem though. All trainers are defeated. However, both mons
are only at Lv. 12. This means no Razor Leaf for Turtwig and no evolution for Starly.
It can't be helped. Time to rock.
Gym 1
First trainer. Six turns in. Starly vs Geodude. Of course, it spammed Defense Curl.
Not even 50%. That's not gonna work.
One good succ from Turtwig and problem solved.
I'm lactose-intolerant when it comes to In-Game. No cheese. No Double Team for Starly.
Even switch-grinding wasn't enough for Starly to evolve, which means it's likely to get folded like a chair by Roark.
But who knows, I've been wrong before.
Stat time.
Starly's Happiness was 119. (47,6 BP - Does it round up or down?)
This is more relevant to Platinum because the Return TM is much earlier. Return is already stronger than Quick Attack even this early in the game, but not as strong as Wing Attack.
Attempt 1:
The strategy is simple. Turtwig shreds Onix and Geodude with Razor Leaf, Starly tries to scrap with Cranidos.
What could go wrong?
Geodude was promptly outsped and taken down.
Onix started off with a Screech. Turtwig's Razor Leaf did around 75~80%, Roark used a Potion. Tested Absorb. Around 70%.
Another Screech, but no sneaky pebbles. This is great news for Starly.
Wig leveled up.
Starly outspeeds, but even at -1, Cranidos's Pursuit dealt 10 damage.
25/35HP left. Turns out it was a speed tie. Headbutt left it at 9. Meanwhile, Wing Attack...
Had to switch out despite the risk of Pursuit, but while Roark didn't use it, this might be even worse.
Turtwig switched right into a Leer.
Last turn. Cranidos used another Leer and Razor Leaf cut straight through it.
No need for further testing.
The strategy is simple. Turtwig shreds Onix and Geodude with Razor Leaf, Starly tries to scrap with Cranidos.
What could go wrong?
Geodude was promptly outsped and taken down.
Onix started off with a Screech. Turtwig's Razor Leaf did around 75~80%, Roark used a Potion. Tested Absorb. Around 70%.
Another Screech, but no sneaky pebbles. This is great news for Starly.
Wig leveled up.
Starly outspeeds, but even at -1, Cranidos's Pursuit dealt 10 damage.
25/35HP left. Turns out it was a speed tie. Headbutt left it at 9. Meanwhile, Wing Attack...
Had to switch out despite the risk of Pursuit, but while Roark didn't use it, this might be even worse.
Turtwig switched right into a Leer.
Last turn. Cranidos used another Leer and Razor Leaf cut straight through it.
No need for further testing.
Conclusion
Turtwig routs the entire Gym without any issues.
Starly can't get enough experience to evolve, so it's pretty much dead weight.
Even if it's not sniped by a stray Rock move, it's not doing anything back.
Did a quick grind to try out Staravia though. The results?
Not a good start for Starly. Reset to get back to Lv. 13.
Attachments
I want to set fire to all Honey Trees in Sinnoh.
Conclusion
Burmy - Being able to harness Burmy's trolling prowess to block Fake Out is nice, but it doesn't matter at all in the long run because it'll have to switch out and whatever gets in will take the same damage they would from Fake Out anyway. It is frankly useless on this matchup and likely will just cause a little extra trouble because it'll need to show up for switch grinding.
Turtwig - Fairly mediocre tbh. It can slowly but surely beat Zubat. It'll likely need a Pecha Berry to block Toxic. Purugly beats it unless you use a Super Potion.
Staravia - Barring a lucky crit from Purugly, it routs Mars easily. Pluck guarantees the 4HKO on Purugly due to denying its Oran Berry. The stolen Berry even allows Staravia to not need an Oran Berry of its own, so if you want to sweep, you can give it a Pecha instead because of Zubat's Toxic. Dominant matchup.
Note: Staravia's happiness was at 135 after Mars. 54 BP Return. Platinum Players might want to stick with Pluck/Wing Attack for a while.
Skipping the Rock Smash portion of Oreburgh Gate until I get the bike.
Got Rock Tomb, Turtwig doesn't learn it. It does learn Bullet Seed, but Gen 4 Bullet is a 10BP pea shooter.
Arrived at Floaroma with both mons at Lv. 14, skipped 2 trainers for Burmy.
Got Pluck and immediately taught it to Staravia. It's important to note that Staravia is the best user of Pluck in the game. Between Intimidate debuffs and STAB off decent stats, Pluck allows Staravia to be very effective both offensively and defensively against many major battles.
I'm gunning for that honey now, made short work of those Galactic Grunts, got the one jar of gift Honey...
And Honey Trees SUCK.
Wurmple, Cherubi, Cascoon, another Wurmple, Combee, AIPOM, another Cascoon, another Combee, male, of course, and another one, 3 males, Wurmple, two in a row...
FINALLY!!!
Even catching it is a waste of time, it got Protect 3 times in a row...
Oh God, it only got Protect. I gotta weaken it, it's breaking out the balls.
Absorb + a Tackle and it started struggling, fortunately, it got 1 HP left, it's definitely mine now...
It broke free again and killed itself with Struggle.
Ok, finally caught one. This was horrible. Time to roll that dice with Hidden Power so it can at least attack...
HOW DOES IT NOT LEARN HIDDEN POWER BY TM!? IT LEARNS IT ON LEVEL 20!!!
Switch grinding a vermin because it got nothing but Protect. Even though it learns Hidden Power on level 20. But not via TM. Fantastic.
And of course, it'd get a good Hidden Power. I'd rather have a Bug one for STAB, but at least it's a max power one.
Got back to Route 204's plateau and battled the two trainers that I left for Burmy. It leveled up to Lv. 8.
Time to storm the Windworks.
Got Rock Tomb, Turtwig doesn't learn it. It does learn Bullet Seed, but Gen 4 Bullet is a 10BP pea shooter.
Arrived at Floaroma with both mons at Lv. 14, skipped 2 trainers for Burmy.
Got Pluck and immediately taught it to Staravia. It's important to note that Staravia is the best user of Pluck in the game. Between Intimidate debuffs and STAB off decent stats, Pluck allows Staravia to be very effective both offensively and defensively against many major battles.
I'm gunning for that honey now, made short work of those Galactic Grunts, got the one jar of gift Honey...
And Honey Trees SUCK.
Wurmple, Cherubi, Cascoon, another Wurmple, Combee, AIPOM, another Cascoon, another Combee, male, of course, and another one, 3 males, Wurmple, two in a row...
FINALLY!!!
Even catching it is a waste of time, it got Protect 3 times in a row...
Oh God, it only got Protect. I gotta weaken it, it's breaking out the balls.
Absorb + a Tackle and it started struggling, fortunately, it got 1 HP left, it's definitely mine now...
It broke free again and killed itself with Struggle.
Ok, finally caught one. This was horrible. Time to roll that dice with Hidden Power so it can at least attack...
HOW DOES IT NOT LEARN HIDDEN POWER BY TM!? IT LEARNS IT ON LEVEL 20!!!
Switch grinding a vermin because it got nothing but Protect. Even though it learns Hidden Power on level 20. But not via TM. Fantastic.
And of course, it'd get a good Hidden Power. I'd rather have a Bug one for STAB, but at least it's a max power one.
Got back to Route 204's plateau and battled the two trainers that I left for Burmy. It leveled up to Lv. 8.
Time to storm the Windworks.
Turtwig can handle Zubat fairly easily, 4HKO. It definitely wants a Pecha for Toxic though. Leech Life is more of an annoyance than a real threat.
Purugly however isn't so kind to it.
Razor Leaf isn't strong enough to 4HKO because of Purugly's Oran Berry.
Overgrow makes the 4HKO possible, but not before Purugly 4HKOs Turtwig back. The greatest issue here is Speed. Wig will already be at a disadvantage because of Fake Out, so Purugly can drop it to 50% before you even get a move in. Oran Berry and Withdraw aren't enough to alleviate the issue, you will need a healing item.
A lucky Quick Claw activation, which isn't too far-fetched because of how long the battle is, doesn't change anything. Even if it triggers while Turtwig is on Overgrow range, it's not enough to change the outcome of the battle as it'll not deal enough damage because of Purugly's Oran Berry, and more importantly, the lack of an Oran Berry will make Wig too frail to resist Purugly's relentless attacks.
This is merely for the record, as the Quick Claw is RNG-Based and has a low rate of activation, making it too unreliable and therefore irrelevant when it comes to tiering purposes.
A Super Potion is a negative point, but it's reliable enough to be viable and with one, Turtwig does pull through.
Burmy gets to troll Purugly's Fake Out and that's about it. It did level up to Lv. 10 at the end of this section, so it can use Tackle now. Yay.
Staravia rolls over Zubat and gets a fairly comfortable matchup against Purugly, 4HKO but never at any risk due to Intimidate barring any lucky Crits, of course.
Purugly however isn't so kind to it.
Razor Leaf isn't strong enough to 4HKO because of Purugly's Oran Berry.
Overgrow makes the 4HKO possible, but not before Purugly 4HKOs Turtwig back. The greatest issue here is Speed. Wig will already be at a disadvantage because of Fake Out, so Purugly can drop it to 50% before you even get a move in. Oran Berry and Withdraw aren't enough to alleviate the issue, you will need a healing item.
A lucky Quick Claw activation, which isn't too far-fetched because of how long the battle is, doesn't change anything. Even if it triggers while Turtwig is on Overgrow range, it's not enough to change the outcome of the battle as it'll not deal enough damage because of Purugly's Oran Berry, and more importantly, the lack of an Oran Berry will make Wig too frail to resist Purugly's relentless attacks.
This is merely for the record, as the Quick Claw is RNG-Based and has a low rate of activation, making it too unreliable and therefore irrelevant when it comes to tiering purposes.
A Super Potion is a negative point, but it's reliable enough to be viable and with one, Turtwig does pull through.
Burmy gets to troll Purugly's Fake Out and that's about it. It did level up to Lv. 10 at the end of this section, so it can use Tackle now. Yay.
Staravia rolls over Zubat and gets a fairly comfortable matchup against Purugly, 4HKO but never at any risk due to Intimidate barring any lucky Crits, of course.
Conclusion
Burmy - Being able to harness Burmy's trolling prowess to block Fake Out is nice, but it doesn't matter at all in the long run because it'll have to switch out and whatever gets in will take the same damage they would from Fake Out anyway. It is frankly useless on this matchup and likely will just cause a little extra trouble because it'll need to show up for switch grinding.
Turtwig - Fairly mediocre tbh. It can slowly but surely beat Zubat. It'll likely need a Pecha Berry to block Toxic. Purugly beats it unless you use a Super Potion.
Staravia - Barring a lucky crit from Purugly, it routs Mars easily. Pluck guarantees the 4HKO on Purugly due to denying its Oran Berry. The stolen Berry even allows Staravia to not need an Oran Berry of its own, so if you want to sweep, you can give it a Pecha instead because of Zubat's Toxic. Dominant matchup.
Note: Staravia's happiness was at 135 after Mars. 54 BP Return. Platinum Players might want to stick with Pluck/Wing Attack for a while.
I feel like this should be a tagline for Sinnoh. Especially when it comes to freaking Munchlax. Good luck with that one. Just automatically put it in bottom tier.
I did honey trees for a while as a kid, without knowing that Munchlax is only available on 4 trees, in an attempt to get the little bugger.
I did eventually get it but it took a long time
I recently started a run with Floatzel, Rampardos, Gallade, Jolteon, and Azelf. Should I use choice specs surf Floatzel or rain dance waterfall Floatzel?
One thing I have wondered for several years is how the rival is too impatient to count to 10 but also shows up at Spear Pillar with a Munchlax.
I'd probably roll with Specs Floatzel until Waterfall was available.
As for Gallade, I recommend you go straight to the Dawn Stone asap while avoiding trainers and then dealing with them when you backtrack.
The earlier you evolve Kirlia, the better it'll be in terms of moves, like for example Swords Dance at Lv. 25.
So you think it's better to use rain dance and waterfall after I get the waterfall HM? Or should I continue using choice specs until I finish the run?
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After you get Waterfall, go full physical. Higher Attack + Swift Swim boost would make Floatzel stronger in the long run. Sure, you need to set up, but Floatzel hits hard enough to not need to set up rain for route clearing.
Also, that frees up Specs for another teammate.
Now, it's time for yet another log.
Got to Eterna Forest. Catching Misdreavus was nice and easy.
The plan is to switch grind it and Burmy with Cheryl's healing. Fortunately, thanks to Psywave, it can hold its own in battles.
Burmy's Tackle is nothing short of pathetic. At Lv. 15, it 6HKO's a Lv. 10 Magikarp. This was the first battle it won without switch grinding.
Explored Eterna City's outskirts. Got the Taunt TM, and while it could be useful against Gardenia, I completely forgot about it.
Turtwig evolved on the very last trainer of Gardenia's Gym. Honestly, Burmy is way too much of a deadweight.
Time for the main event.
Burmy and Misdreavus at Lv. 17, Staravia and Grotle at 18.
Got the badge, healed up, and did a quick detour to grab Thief. Wound up teaching it to Misdreavus because why not?
It's interesting that Team Galactic actively blocked the entrance to their building with a bunch of Cut trees.
But I'll cut to the chase, Jupiter is probably one of the toughest matchups in this game, so let's see just how well this team can do against an opponent of this caliber.
Burmy and Staravia at Lv. 19, Grotle and Misdreavus at Lv. 18.
The plan is to switch grind it and Burmy with Cheryl's healing. Fortunately, thanks to Psywave, it can hold its own in battles.
Burmy's Tackle is nothing short of pathetic. At Lv. 15, it 6HKO's a Lv. 10 Magikarp. This was the first battle it won without switch grinding.
Explored Eterna City's outskirts. Got the Taunt TM, and while it could be useful against Gardenia, I completely forgot about it.
Turtwig evolved on the very last trainer of Gardenia's Gym. Honestly, Burmy is way too much of a deadweight.
Time for the main event.
Burmy and Misdreavus at Lv. 17, Staravia and Grotle at 18.
Tried to at least beat Cherubi with Burmy.
Leech Seed healed the damage from Tackle. It's that bad.
Saying that Misdreavus can beat anything reliably is kind of a stretch. Psywave is extremely unreliable, but it's usually a fairly strong move. Definitely not enough to pull off a sweep though.
Turtwig 3HKOs Misdreavus, so depending on your luck with Psywave, you 3HKO it first. Not reliable, but something to keep in mind because of Withdraw and Reflect.
It folds to Roserade. Magical Leaf is a 2HKO.
Grotle vs Turtwig is so slow-paced and tanky that Gardenia actually switched out to Roserade.
Roserade proves to be way too much for Grotle to handle with its special attacks bypassing Curse and even at +2, Tackle deals pitiful damage in return. Flat out bad matchup.
Staravia, as expected, rips through Gardenia's team.
Cherubi is outright OHKO'd outside of bad rolls, which are advantageous to trigger Gardenia's Super Potion.
Roserade is 2HKO'd by Pluck, Magical Leaf deals significant damage, but it's a 3HKO at worst and it's a guaranteed win if she uses anything other than it. Staravia also gets to steal a Sitrus Berry with Pluck, making it a solid safety net.
Leech Seed healed the damage from Tackle. It's that bad.
Saying that Misdreavus can beat anything reliably is kind of a stretch. Psywave is extremely unreliable, but it's usually a fairly strong move. Definitely not enough to pull off a sweep though.
Turtwig 3HKOs Misdreavus, so depending on your luck with Psywave, you 3HKO it first. Not reliable, but something to keep in mind because of Withdraw and Reflect.
It folds to Roserade. Magical Leaf is a 2HKO.
Grotle vs Turtwig is so slow-paced and tanky that Gardenia actually switched out to Roserade.
Roserade proves to be way too much for Grotle to handle with its special attacks bypassing Curse and even at +2, Tackle deals pitiful damage in return. Flat out bad matchup.
Staravia, as expected, rips through Gardenia's team.
Cherubi is outright OHKO'd outside of bad rolls, which are advantageous to trigger Gardenia's Super Potion.
Roserade is 2HKO'd by Pluck, Magical Leaf deals significant damage, but it's a 3HKO at worst and it's a guaranteed win if she uses anything other than it. Staravia also gets to steal a Sitrus Berry with Pluck, making it a solid safety net.
Got the badge, healed up, and did a quick detour to grab Thief. Wound up teaching it to Misdreavus because why not?
It's interesting that Team Galactic actively blocked the entrance to their building with a bunch of Cut trees.
But I'll cut to the chase, Jupiter is probably one of the toughest matchups in this game, so let's see just how well this team can do against an opponent of this caliber.
Burmy and Staravia at Lv. 19, Grotle and Misdreavus at Lv. 18.
Burmy still hasn't evolved. You can figure how useful it is.
Misdreavus' reliance on Psywave is damn near making me reach for that Hidden Power TM. 3HKO'd by Zubat. Even if I resort to Astonish, it's still a 4HKO.
Matter of fact, Zubat almost outright sweeps this team.
Grotle is promptly rolled over by Wing Attack and is completely unable to contribute in this battle. 3HKO vs over 4HKO with Tackle.
The demonic Skuntank emerges.
Seriously, we're talking about STAB Night Slash, which is bad news even for Staravia as Crits negate Intimidate, but if that wasn't enough, here's the kicker.
Screech.
Attempting to out tank Skuntank is useless. There's just one option, trying to out damage it, and good luck with that. Between 93 Base Attack and a 70BP STAB move with a high crit rate, you'll be hard-pressed to find something that can reliably deal more damage than it.
Switched out to Lv. 2 Bidoof to dispel the 3 Screeches Staravia took, but then...
Skuntank spammed status moves. Screech, Smokescreen... meanwhile, Bidoof did what's used to. HM Duty. The result? Skuntank at -5 Defense. Switched Staravia back in and promptly dispatched it with Wing Attack.
Never disrespect Sinnoh Gang's MVP again! Ever!!!
As hilarious as it is, I can't let the MVP casually make a mockery of one of the franchise's toughest bosses. Reset.
Tried throwing Grotle at it. +1 Tackle might not be even a 6HKO. Night Slash roughly 3HKO's.
Crit Night Slash outright OHKO'd Staravia.
However, at -3, Night Slash only deals 10 damage. This may sound odd, but it's fairly trivial to debuff Skuntank with Staravia due to Intimidate and the natural switching out of Skuntank's debuffs.
Jupiter plays passive, but it's hard to set up on her because of Screech and Smokescreen crippling your mons.
I assume Luxio will have similar advantages.
Staravia's Pluck is roughly a 4HKO. This is not a comfortable matchup, but it's fairly good.
Misdreavus' reliance on Psywave is damn near making me reach for that Hidden Power TM. 3HKO'd by Zubat. Even if I resort to Astonish, it's still a 4HKO.
Matter of fact, Zubat almost outright sweeps this team.
Grotle is promptly rolled over by Wing Attack and is completely unable to contribute in this battle. 3HKO vs over 4HKO with Tackle.
The demonic Skuntank emerges.
Seriously, we're talking about STAB Night Slash, which is bad news even for Staravia as Crits negate Intimidate, but if that wasn't enough, here's the kicker.
Screech.
Attempting to out tank Skuntank is useless. There's just one option, trying to out damage it, and good luck with that. Between 93 Base Attack and a 70BP STAB move with a high crit rate, you'll be hard-pressed to find something that can reliably deal more damage than it.
Switched out to Lv. 2 Bidoof to dispel the 3 Screeches Staravia took, but then...
Skuntank spammed status moves. Screech, Smokescreen... meanwhile, Bidoof did what's used to. HM Duty. The result? Skuntank at -5 Defense. Switched Staravia back in and promptly dispatched it with Wing Attack.
Never disrespect Sinnoh Gang's MVP again! Ever!!!
As hilarious as it is, I can't let the MVP casually make a mockery of one of the franchise's toughest bosses. Reset.
Tried throwing Grotle at it. +1 Tackle might not be even a 6HKO. Night Slash roughly 3HKO's.
Crit Night Slash outright OHKO'd Staravia.
However, at -3, Night Slash only deals 10 damage. This may sound odd, but it's fairly trivial to debuff Skuntank with Staravia due to Intimidate and the natural switching out of Skuntank's debuffs.
Jupiter plays passive, but it's hard to set up on her because of Screech and Smokescreen crippling your mons.
I assume Luxio will have similar advantages.
Staravia's Pluck is roughly a 4HKO. This is not a comfortable matchup, but it's fairly good.
Conclusion
Grotle - Grotle is being consistently disappointing. Low speed and damage output, frailty on the special side... Even its good physical bulk isn't enough and Curse, while a nice idea on paper, isn't enough to allow it to tackle the bigger challenges the game has to offer. Mars, Gardenia, Jupiter... Unless it has an RSE Gardevoir-level dominance after it evolves, and it's pretty unlikely it has with that entire route covered in snow and some nerfed, but still bad matchups.
It's safe to say that the dream is dead. Turtwig does not have what it takes to be the first Grass starter to ever reach the pinnacle of an In-Game Tier List.
Staravia - After that speedbump in Oreburgh, Staravia is back with a vengeance. It's ripping through everything the game has to offer, and when it's not just plowing through things, it's showing incredible defensive value with Pluck and Intimidate.
Burmy - The Burmy period is nothing short of abysmal. Tackle 6HKOing an Lv. 10 Magikarp with a 5 level advantage for Burmy is incredibly underwhelming. It absolutely cannot pull its own weight and it's annoying to find and capture because of the combination of Honey Trees and Protect as its only move triggering Struggle quickly.
Misdreavus - Relying on Psywave makes Misdreavus a strong but very inconsistent mon so far, Astonish is passable against a weakened foe or something that is weak to Ghost. Not something that's worth not gambling on Psywave, but reliable enough to be a safety net.
Bidoof - We made a mistake taking it out of S.
Can someone enlighten me on the honey tree mechanics? I thought that once you get an encounter with a certain Pokemon, you can reset to get a different gender for that Pokemon, but does this also work for their level? Because if that's the case, I have to question why Volt-Ikazuchi would settle for a level 6 Burmy, when you can catch them up to level 15. I used a Burmy too recently, and Burmy struggling itself to death while trying to catch it was a total non-issue for me because I caught it at level 13 or something. Sure, it's availability still absolutely sucks, but resetting for a decent level will definitely save time in the long run. Then again, I'm still not entirely sure if you can reset for level at all, so can someone who has tested this help, please?
Partly as a result of wasting so much exp on a lv 6 Burmy, it doesn't evolve in time for Gardenia. I get that team size has a huge impact on the level curve in the early game, but I feel like really should try to play to Burmy's strengths and evolve it before its best matchup. Gardenia's ace is level 22 and Burmy evolves at level 20, so it's completely reasonable to expect Burmy to be evolved here. Or rather, I think it's unreasonable to NOT evolve Burmy before Gardenia. I think your team in general is rather underleveled to be honest, at least compared to the level benchmarks I tend to hit in my own playthroughs, though I think that's mostly down to you having a team of four so early in the game.
Maybe it's just the difference between Pearl and Platinum, or maybe I am overlevelled. However, I do think that catching a level 6 Burmy and then complaining that it doesn't evolve in time is a questionable play, and I just want to point that out. I'm also slightly annoyed at how you're treating Turtwig atm. Declaring that "the dream is dead" when you're the only person who has had a bad time with it so far. This list is still very young and I'm sure there will be more tests with Turtwig later on; you're not the only tester.
Partly as a result of wasting so much exp on a lv 6 Burmy, it doesn't evolve in time for Gardenia. I get that team size has a huge impact on the level curve in the early game, but I feel like really should try to play to Burmy's strengths and evolve it before its best matchup. Gardenia's ace is level 22 and Burmy evolves at level 20, so it's completely reasonable to expect Burmy to be evolved here. Or rather, I think it's unreasonable to NOT evolve Burmy before Gardenia. I think your team in general is rather underleveled to be honest, at least compared to the level benchmarks I tend to hit in my own playthroughs, though I think that's mostly down to you having a team of four so early in the game.
Maybe it's just the difference between Pearl and Platinum, or maybe I am overlevelled. However, I do think that catching a level 6 Burmy and then complaining that it doesn't evolve in time is a questionable play, and I just want to point that out. I'm also slightly annoyed at how you're treating Turtwig atm. Declaring that "the dream is dead" when you're the only person who has had a bad time with it so far. This list is still very young and I'm sure there will be more tests with Turtwig later on; you're not the only tester.
The mon is generated on the honey slathering.
If I save before I slather honey, I can save money by using the same honey to get different mons. If I save after setting honey, I can soft-reset for natures and level.
The thing is, early on, your money is still pretty tight. So I couldn't just stock up on Honey and save after setting it up. I had just stocked up on Super Potions, so I was pretty broke.
Pearl only gets one free jar of honey unlike Plat's 10 (iirc, Plat gets 10.)
So I had to settle for any chance to get a Burmy, period, because as you can see in my logs, it was an outrageous pain in the ass to even find one in the first place.
Also, Gardenia is not Burmy's best matchup. Bug/Steel is a pretty good defensive typing overall, and unlike in Platinum, Burmy does not get Bug Bite.
Matter of fact, since the Hidden Power it got was Ground, it's not even a good matchup. It's just a boring chip fest with nothing doing real damage.
Then by all means, post your own results. Didn't you have 3 tests ready for when the list dropped?
And yes, for me, the dream is dead. At no point beyond Roark Turtwig showed any sign of dominance and we know that it has bad matchups against an entire route later on, it's not hard to guess that it won't be truly broken.
I can be proven wrong, but only if people actually get out there, test, and post their results.
I'll reiterate, right now, on early test results, the dream is dead. Will that opinion hold until the end of even just my test? Who knows. So far, it hasn't.
fwiw I have zero casual experience that would suggest Turtwig deserves S so maybe let's take a chill pill on the aggro about it, seems to be a very open debate
So let's say you save when the tree is shaking right before you get your encounter. If the encounter is Burmy, you should be able to reset the level because apparently the mon is generated on the slathering, so the encounter should be Burmy on every reset, right?
If the encounter IS'NT Burmy, you will have wasted the honey doing it like the above. However, since you have to wait six hours for the tree to shake, you're probably going to be saving anyway. If you don't, you'd have to keep your ds turned on for the entire six hours, or am I missing something? I suppose that in DP you kind of have to do that, because you only get one honey. God what a shit mechanic honestly...
apparently, DP Burmy is also much rarer than Pt Burmy (11% vs 22%). Between honey management and a significant difference in encounter rate, do you think there is a good reason to rate DP Burmy lower than Pt Burmy? I'll try to find my logs on to compare with the platinum performance.
I didn't know Burmy doesn't get bug bite in DP, so that's my bad. This is one of the reasons I'm personally not a big fan of having separate lists for DP and Pt, because it makes comparing test results more confusing and difficult, but whatever.
As for Turtwig, the way you voiced your opinion just irked me, is all.
^ this wording just doesn't read like an opinion to me. It's written like it's some undeniable truth, when it isn't. Anyway, I don't want to invalidate your experience.
Not on emulator because you can just change the internal clock but...
Yes, pretty much.
So you either save the Honey or save the mon. No third option barring save states but I'm not using those because I've lost entire GC "Memory Cards" to reloads that didn't have a proper save tied to them, so pretty much never again. Also, going with only stuff I'd be able to do on DS anyway.
The biggest loss is Bug Bite. Bug Bite allows berry stealing shenanigans which are excellent on defense for Trash Cloak and offense for Sandy Cloak. That alone might warrant a tier bump. Also, if Plat does give 10 honey attempts, it's much easier to save for a better Burmy. Plat Fantina is also a more relevant matchup for Trash Cloak too.
Speaking of which, Sandy Cloak is much, much better in Plat for getting earlier access to EQ anyway, so I suppose it's going to be at a higher tier anyway.
Until proven wrong, (And let's face it, who else is testing DP Turtwig? Or DP in general for that matter.) that's the conclusion I've reached.
Not saying there's no way it could happen, but the conclusion of my early-game testing was this. A conclusion is not written with doubt in mind, if I had any doubts, like I had when I wasn't sure if Staravia would be useless against Roark like Starly was, I'd have tested further like I did until I could reach a conclusion for that segment.
Unless I'm proven wrong, I cannot see Turtwig reaching an S-Tier performance. I'm not nailing down a tier for any mon until I conclude the test, but just like I can say "It's safe to say Staravia is not a D-Tier mon", I can say "It's safe to say Turtwig is not an S-Tier mon."
I can see why you're irritated at my wording, but this is a bit overblown tbh.
I'd like to raise some discussion on Move Tutors. The benefits are obvious, but how much of a cost are they when it comes to efficiency?
Not a lot to go on right now but should have some more in the next few days. I am doing a run consisting of Turtwig, Bidoof (Battle Prowess), Starly, Magikarp, Gible, and Houndour. I am testing on Platinum.
Starly is level 8 here. I stopped leveling it because I cared more for the Bidoof MU than the obvious Starly MU (backed up by current Starly Tests as well).
My Magikarp is 15. I got VERY lucky in getting the level 15 Karp on Route 218. However it should be noted that most users will have a 5-6 Karp as those are most common. In the end it is still a Karp and accomplishes nothing MU wise until Gyarados. I will go on to say that it is probably better that you get a low level one for Return Dos later on.
Now moving on. I have one major gripe with this list. This being the leveling clause that is in place. From my understanding of this, it seems that the TLs would prefer matching levels more than anything in probably one of the more harder, if not hardest, entries in the series. Yes, it was explained to me that I am to use my judgement in terms of the levels (this meaning if my judgement proves sound enough to be overleveled). However, this is incredibly vague and does not provide a clear answer. So with that said, I grinded on Wilds for Bibarel and it altered the MU to be outright better, thus my judgement proved correct. So let's use the Turtwig MU in Pearl from Volt. If he had gone to Grotle, the MU may have been much more favorable to him. Sounds like the judgment there would have been to grind on Wilds to get Grotle and have a better MU than what was given. While I don't like using Wilds to grind, sometimes it is necessary to do to alleviate issues (Ex: Pansear getting Flame Burst for Lenora, Grotle for Mars, Bibarel for Roark).
TL:DR I think a Level Cap needs to be put in place and not a vague writeup of what we have (and then being told "use your judgement") If the fear that people would go ham on their levels was ever in mind, placing the said level cap would have resolved that issue. Granted the people need to read the OP to see this. Later on this really doesn't matter but in the Early Game? It absolutely does. Most lists allow a +2 Level Cap on the upcoming Major Battle's Ace, albeit this is never spoken outwardly and is generally a silent agreement from what I have seen.
Bidoof (13): Having Simple is mandatory if you plan to use Bidoof in battle. Moving onto the MU. Geodude always leads with Stealth Rock so you get a free DCurl. I always went +6 in my tests which is just 3 DCurls. You could prob get away with a +4 (2 DCurls). After which I went into Rollout. Rollout is a 4HKO on Geodude. Onix takes the 5th hit and is dropped to low Yellow/Red. This puts it in Potion range and Rollout again for a 5HKO. Crani kills Bidoof due to the damage accrued. (Potion does not alliviate this). All in all, a very surprising turnout. Not a Good MU but not a Bad one either. Okay MU.
Bibarel (15): Water Gun is an OHKO on Geodude and Onix. 3HKO on Crani due to Potion. Excellent MU. This has not stayed in fear of my test being deemed "Invalid" per rules of the Leveling Clause this thread holds. As such, it is still a Level 13 Bidoof, I just wanted this log for the info.
Turtwig (13-14): Razor Leaf OHKOs Geodude. 2HKOs Onix, and 3HKO on Cranidos. Nothing really threatens you but be wary of Razor Leaf misses. Excellent MU.
Bibarel (15): Water Gun is an OHKO on Geodude and Onix. 3HKO on Crani due to Potion. Excellent MU. This has not stayed in fear of my test being deemed "Invalid" per rules of the Leveling Clause this thread holds. As such, it is still a Level 13 Bidoof, I just wanted this log for the info.
Turtwig (13-14): Razor Leaf OHKOs Geodude. 2HKOs Onix, and 3HKO on Cranidos. Nothing really threatens you but be wary of Razor Leaf misses. Excellent MU.
Starly is level 8 here. I stopped leveling it because I cared more for the Bidoof MU than the obvious Starly MU (backed up by current Starly Tests as well).
My Magikarp is 15. I got VERY lucky in getting the level 15 Karp on Route 218. However it should be noted that most users will have a 5-6 Karp as those are most common. In the end it is still a Karp and accomplishes nothing MU wise until Gyarados. I will go on to say that it is probably better that you get a low level one for Return Dos later on.
Now moving on. I have one major gripe with this list. This being the leveling clause that is in place. From my understanding of this, it seems that the TLs would prefer matching levels more than anything in probably one of the more harder, if not hardest, entries in the series. Yes, it was explained to me that I am to use my judgement in terms of the levels (this meaning if my judgement proves sound enough to be overleveled). However, this is incredibly vague and does not provide a clear answer. So with that said, I grinded on Wilds for Bibarel and it altered the MU to be outright better, thus my judgement proved correct. So let's use the Turtwig MU in Pearl from Volt. If he had gone to Grotle, the MU may have been much more favorable to him. Sounds like the judgment there would have been to grind on Wilds to get Grotle and have a better MU than what was given. While I don't like using Wilds to grind, sometimes it is necessary to do to alleviate issues (Ex: Pansear getting Flame Burst for Lenora, Grotle for Mars, Bibarel for Roark).
TL:DR I think a Level Cap needs to be put in place and not a vague writeup of what we have (and then being told "use your judgement") If the fear that people would go ham on their levels was ever in mind, placing the said level cap would have resolved that issue. Granted the people need to read the OP to see this. Later on this really doesn't matter but in the Early Game? It absolutely does. Most lists allow a +2 Level Cap on the upcoming Major Battle's Ace, albeit this is never spoken outwardly and is generally a silent agreement from what I have seen.
Just for the sake of clarification for the rest of the thread, 1~2 levels are usually fine. What matters most is transparency on how you got it. That allows people to make their own judgement on whether or not to follow suit themselves.
Let's take a practical example:
Note: On DP, Mars's Purugly is Lv. 16.
Due to wasting Exp. switch grinding Burmy, Turtwig was slightly underleveled at Lv. 15, a spit away from Lv. 16.
My priority was to test the team as is. Had I no other option, I'd have grinded against Wilds, but not only that wasn't the case, that'd be a negative point for Turtwig. The advantage won by overleveling and evolving is negated by the requirement of doing so, and while Turtwig ultimately failed to produce good results, I feel this was an accurate result of its abilities at that stage.
If you need to go out of your way to grind on Lv. 6~8 mons with an Lv. 16 mon all the way up to 18, just so it can evolve to win a matchup without a type disadvantage, frankly, I'm calling it a bad matchup. It's a vaild way to patch it up, but it's not Turtwig's natural ability, it's extra effort.
Like the OP states, some times, depending on team size, it's reasonable to assume you'll get one or two levels above an ace. There's nothing wrong with that. I'll contest it when you're blatantly grinding for an advantage you'd otherwise not have.
So back to Bidoof.
How did you get to Lv. 15? Was it a natural result of a smaller team size and/or excess exp from too many route trainers, or did you have to go out of your way and grind against Wild Ponyta north of Oreburgh because Bidoof has a bad matchup against all Oreburgh Gym trainers AND all Oreburgh Mine trainers?
The former is perfectly fine. It's not a big level advantage, despite the evolution changing the tides of that matchup, the latter is an artificial, intentional patching of an otherwise bad matchup, which was exactly what I wanted to prevent with that rule.
When I say "Use your judgement" it all boils down to "Is this an intentional distortion of a test result?"
Most of the "Rules and Guidelines" section boil down to guidelines on how to avoid artificial performance boosts that can distort test results.
As long as you're transparent on how you're getting your results, they will always be taken into account appropriately.
Even cases like these can be useful as information on how to surpass an otherwise bad matchup, barring extreme, intentional distortions, I will never outright deem test results invalid.
Taking this into consideration, I'm welcome to any and all suggestions on how to update the OP to improve clarity on the matter.
I'm here to drop logs on some random Pokemon I used recently. I used these alongside Turtwig, which I already gave my experience on.
Ponyta -> C tier
Pros
Rotom -> C tier
Pros
Ralts (Gallade) -> C tier
Pros
Swablu -> D tier
Pros
Mars (15): Ponyta outspeeds and 2HKO’s Zubat with flame wheel while not taking much damage back from bite. Purugly outspeeds and it can take five flame wheels thanks to thick fat. You’re better off using growl or tail whip, which is very valuable support. Average matchup.
Gardenia (21): outspeeds and OHKO’s Turtwig on a range. Ponyta outspeeds and 2HKO’s Cherrim, who uses either safeguard or leech seed. Roserade outspeeds and uses stun spore, and is OHKO’d on a range. Nothing on Gardenia’s team can really touch Ponyta either. Great matchup.
Jupiter (22/23): stomp outspeeds and 2HKO’s zubat, so there is a decent chance that you can defeat it without taking damage. At level 22 (45 spd), Skuntank outspeeds, but I suspected that that might be because of the -spd nature on my Ponyta, so I also tested level 23. Sure enough, level 23 Ponyta (47 spd) does outspeed Skuntank. At 23, Ponyta can live two night slashes, and this is a range at level 22. Flame wheel is a 5HKO if you count the sitrus berry. Average matchup.
Fantina (26): Ponyta outspeeds and 2HKO’s both Duskull and Haunter with flame wheel. Haunter can be problematic with hypnosis, but you can use a chesto berry to fix this. For some reason, Fantina always brings out Mismagius last, so you can consistently get rid of Duskull and Haunter back to back. Mismagius outspeeds, but shadow ball misses a 2HKO from full HP. Flame wheel 3HKO’s Mismagius, counting the sitrus berry. Very decent matchup tbh, but I should mention that my perfect attack IV and +Sp. Def nature might have mattered here.
Barry 209 (26): Ponyta outspeeds all of Barry’s Pokemon. It 2HKO’s Staravia with flame wheel, but only if you use a fodder Pokemon for intimidate. Buizel is 2HKO’d by stomp, while water gun is only a 4HKO. Monferno is 3HKO’d by stomp, but it uses mach punch so you don’t get a chance to flinch. Mach punch is a 3HKO from full HP. Roselia gets OHKO’d by flame wheel. With a super potion, it’s definitely possible to sweep this, though not consistently. Decent matchup.
Maylene (30/31): lv 30 Ponyta outspeeds and 2HKO’s both Meditite and Machoke with flame wheel and fire blast respectively, but both of them 2HKO back with rock tomb. Ponyta still outspeeds them both after a speed drop, do you can take either of them out, but not both. Fire blast seems to be a range on Meditite, so I tested lv 31 as well, which does make fire blast a consistent OHKO. Lucario outspeeds, but it fails to OHKO so you can OHKO it back with fire blast. Decent matchup.
Barry Pastoria (31): Ponyta outspeeds everything again. Fire blast gets Staravia in red, while it usually uses double team. If you don’t miss, you can take it out safely. Buizel 3HKO’s with aqua jet, and it’s 3HKO’d by even -1 stomp. Return can 2HKO even at -1. Monferno is 4HKO’d by stomp or 3HKO’d by return, and it 4HKO’s back with mach punch. Roselia is easily OHKO’d. Not great, not bad either.
Crasher Wake (33): it can OHKO Quagsire with sunnybeam, but that’s it. Mediocre matchup.
Barry canalave (36): specs fire blast OHKO’s raptor, Heracross and Roserade, but only Roserade is slower. Flamethrower works for Heracross and Roserade as well, but not Staraptor. Raptor likes spamming double team, but if it does decide to attack, it 2HKO’s with aerial ace. Heracross also 2HKO’s. Ponyta really can’t do anything to Infernape and Floatzel. Average matchup.
Byron (37): Ponyta outspeeds everything. Specs flamethrower OHKO’s both Magneton and Steelix. It’s a 4HKO on Bastiodon if you count the sitrus berry, but stone edge OHKO’s. Pretty good matchup.
Saturn (38): Golbat is 2HKO’d by specs flamethrower, but it also outspeeds and it harasses Ponyta with hax. Bronzor is outsped and OHKO’d by flamethrower. Toxicroak is 2HKO’d by flamethrower, if you don’t count the sitrus berry. Fire blast 2HKO’s even with sitrus berry. However, a boosted revenge 1HKO’s Ponyta. Decent-ish matchup.
Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly is only 4HKO’d counting the sitrus berry, but it also outspeeds and 2HKO’s with slash. Mediocre matchup.
Candice (40): Sneasel outspeeds and 3HKO’s with faint attack. It’s OHKO’d by flamethrower. Abomasnow and Piloswine are both outsped and OHKO’d by specs flamethrower. Froslass outspeeds and 2HKO’s with shadow ball after faint attack, but it’s OHKO’d by specs flamethrower as well. Amazing matchup.
Volkner (44): specs flamethrower is a 2HKO on Luxray and Raichu, but Raichu is faster. Both of them 2HKO. Jolteon is also faster, can survive 2 specs flamethrowers (though this seems to be a range), and it’s damage output varies depending on how many charge beam boosts it gets. Electivire outspeeds and 2HKO’s, while being 3HKO’d by specs flamethrower. Neutral matchup.
Aaron (49): outspeeds and OHKO’s Yanmega with (non-specs) flamethrower. Vespiquen is a range with specs, but power gem isn’t even a 2HKO. Heracross is also a range with specs, but you can also outspeed and OHKO it with bounce, so I find it better to not use specs at all. Scizor is outsped and OHKO’d obviously. Drapion outspeeds and 3HKO’s with cross poison, and it’s 3HKO’d back by non-specs flamethrower. You can quite easily get a full sweep with a little bit of healing support. Great matchup.
Bertha (49): you can reliably take out Whishcash with sunnybeam, but Bertha switches in Hippowdon immediately after, overriding the sun with sand. Solarbeam can OHKO Rhyperior and Golem as well, but you can’t set up sun on them as they both OHKO with earthquake. Bad matchup.
Flint (49): it doesn’t even 2HKO anything due to lack of coverage. Bad matchup.
Lucian (50): silverpowder megahorn OHKO's Mr.Mime, Alakazam and Espeon, but all of them outspeed and 2HKO with psychic. Mr.mime likes to use reflect though. Bronzong is 2HKO'd by flamethrower even without specs, and it 2HKO's with earthquake. You can 2HKO Gallade with bounce, but it OHKO's with stone edge. Overall, pretty good, but you are very dependent on your speed.
Cynthia (50): Lucario outpseeds and OHKO's with stone edge, but you OHKO back in case it misses. Roserade outspeeds and 2HKO's, and it's 2HKO'd back by flamethrower. Bad matchup.
Gardenia (21): outspeeds and OHKO’s Turtwig on a range. Ponyta outspeeds and 2HKO’s Cherrim, who uses either safeguard or leech seed. Roserade outspeeds and uses stun spore, and is OHKO’d on a range. Nothing on Gardenia’s team can really touch Ponyta either. Great matchup.
Jupiter (22/23): stomp outspeeds and 2HKO’s zubat, so there is a decent chance that you can defeat it without taking damage. At level 22 (45 spd), Skuntank outspeeds, but I suspected that that might be because of the -spd nature on my Ponyta, so I also tested level 23. Sure enough, level 23 Ponyta (47 spd) does outspeed Skuntank. At 23, Ponyta can live two night slashes, and this is a range at level 22. Flame wheel is a 5HKO if you count the sitrus berry. Average matchup.
Fantina (26): Ponyta outspeeds and 2HKO’s both Duskull and Haunter with flame wheel. Haunter can be problematic with hypnosis, but you can use a chesto berry to fix this. For some reason, Fantina always brings out Mismagius last, so you can consistently get rid of Duskull and Haunter back to back. Mismagius outspeeds, but shadow ball misses a 2HKO from full HP. Flame wheel 3HKO’s Mismagius, counting the sitrus berry. Very decent matchup tbh, but I should mention that my perfect attack IV and +Sp. Def nature might have mattered here.
Barry 209 (26): Ponyta outspeeds all of Barry’s Pokemon. It 2HKO’s Staravia with flame wheel, but only if you use a fodder Pokemon for intimidate. Buizel is 2HKO’d by stomp, while water gun is only a 4HKO. Monferno is 3HKO’d by stomp, but it uses mach punch so you don’t get a chance to flinch. Mach punch is a 3HKO from full HP. Roselia gets OHKO’d by flame wheel. With a super potion, it’s definitely possible to sweep this, though not consistently. Decent matchup.
Maylene (30/31): lv 30 Ponyta outspeeds and 2HKO’s both Meditite and Machoke with flame wheel and fire blast respectively, but both of them 2HKO back with rock tomb. Ponyta still outspeeds them both after a speed drop, do you can take either of them out, but not both. Fire blast seems to be a range on Meditite, so I tested lv 31 as well, which does make fire blast a consistent OHKO. Lucario outspeeds, but it fails to OHKO so you can OHKO it back with fire blast. Decent matchup.
Barry Pastoria (31): Ponyta outspeeds everything again. Fire blast gets Staravia in red, while it usually uses double team. If you don’t miss, you can take it out safely. Buizel 3HKO’s with aqua jet, and it’s 3HKO’d by even -1 stomp. Return can 2HKO even at -1. Monferno is 4HKO’d by stomp or 3HKO’d by return, and it 4HKO’s back with mach punch. Roselia is easily OHKO’d. Not great, not bad either.
Crasher Wake (33): it can OHKO Quagsire with sunnybeam, but that’s it. Mediocre matchup.
Barry canalave (36): specs fire blast OHKO’s raptor, Heracross and Roserade, but only Roserade is slower. Flamethrower works for Heracross and Roserade as well, but not Staraptor. Raptor likes spamming double team, but if it does decide to attack, it 2HKO’s with aerial ace. Heracross also 2HKO’s. Ponyta really can’t do anything to Infernape and Floatzel. Average matchup.
Byron (37): Ponyta outspeeds everything. Specs flamethrower OHKO’s both Magneton and Steelix. It’s a 4HKO on Bastiodon if you count the sitrus berry, but stone edge OHKO’s. Pretty good matchup.
Saturn (38): Golbat is 2HKO’d by specs flamethrower, but it also outspeeds and it harasses Ponyta with hax. Bronzor is outsped and OHKO’d by flamethrower. Toxicroak is 2HKO’d by flamethrower, if you don’t count the sitrus berry. Fire blast 2HKO’s even with sitrus berry. However, a boosted revenge 1HKO’s Ponyta. Decent-ish matchup.
Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly is only 4HKO’d counting the sitrus berry, but it also outspeeds and 2HKO’s with slash. Mediocre matchup.
Candice (40): Sneasel outspeeds and 3HKO’s with faint attack. It’s OHKO’d by flamethrower. Abomasnow and Piloswine are both outsped and OHKO’d by specs flamethrower. Froslass outspeeds and 2HKO’s with shadow ball after faint attack, but it’s OHKO’d by specs flamethrower as well. Amazing matchup.
Volkner (44): specs flamethrower is a 2HKO on Luxray and Raichu, but Raichu is faster. Both of them 2HKO. Jolteon is also faster, can survive 2 specs flamethrowers (though this seems to be a range), and it’s damage output varies depending on how many charge beam boosts it gets. Electivire outspeeds and 2HKO’s, while being 3HKO’d by specs flamethrower. Neutral matchup.
Aaron (49): outspeeds and OHKO’s Yanmega with (non-specs) flamethrower. Vespiquen is a range with specs, but power gem isn’t even a 2HKO. Heracross is also a range with specs, but you can also outspeed and OHKO it with bounce, so I find it better to not use specs at all. Scizor is outsped and OHKO’d obviously. Drapion outspeeds and 3HKO’s with cross poison, and it’s 3HKO’d back by non-specs flamethrower. You can quite easily get a full sweep with a little bit of healing support. Great matchup.
Bertha (49): you can reliably take out Whishcash with sunnybeam, but Bertha switches in Hippowdon immediately after, overriding the sun with sand. Solarbeam can OHKO Rhyperior and Golem as well, but you can’t set up sun on them as they both OHKO with earthquake. Bad matchup.
Flint (49): it doesn’t even 2HKO anything due to lack of coverage. Bad matchup.
Lucian (50): silverpowder megahorn OHKO's Mr.Mime, Alakazam and Espeon, but all of them outspeed and 2HKO with psychic. Mr.mime likes to use reflect though. Bronzong is 2HKO'd by flamethrower even without specs, and it 2HKO's with earthquake. You can 2HKO Gallade with bounce, but it OHKO's with stone edge. Overall, pretty good, but you are very dependent on your speed.
Cynthia (50): Lucario outpseeds and OHKO's with stone edge, but you OHKO back in case it misses. Roserade outspeeds and 2HKO's, and it's 2HKO'd back by flamethrower. Bad matchup.
Jupiter (22): outspeeds and OHKO’s Zubat with shock wave. It also outspeeds Skuntank, and shock wave is a 4HKO. Night slash is a OHKO (it was a range for me, but that’s probably because of IV’s). You can try your luck with confuse ray. Below average matchup.
Fantina (26): 2HKO’s Duskull, but Duskull can outspeed with shadow sneak. Mismagius outspeeds and somehow doesn’t OHKO with shadow ball, but this is most likely down to my IV’s and nature again. Shock wave is only a 4HKO anyway, if you count the sitrus berry. Rotom outspeeds and 2HKO’s Haunter, and it can take one shadow claw even after shadow sneak damage. Mediocre matchup.
Barry Hearthome(25): outspeeds and OHKO’s Staravia and Buizel with shock wave. Shock wave outspeeds and is a 2HKO on Monferno, but this is a range. It’s consistent at level 26. Flame wheel is a 3HKO back, so you can take Monferno out fairly consistently. Roselia is only 4HKO’d by uproar, and the healing from leech seed and mega drain make it so that Rotom can’t effectively break through without confuse ray luck or a crit. Pretty good matchup overall.
Maylene (30): spooky plate ominous wind outspeeds and OHKO’s Meditite. Machoke is 2HKO’d on a range, while rock tomb is only like a 5HKO. Rotom walls Lucario by virtue of its typing and ability, and you can 3HKO it with shock wave. Great matchup, Maylene can barely hit you.
Barry Pastoria (30): outspeeds and OHKO’s both Staravia and Buizel with shock wave. Monferno outspeeds and 3HKO’s with flame wheel, while Rotom 3HKO’s back with ominous wind. I should mention that I’m quite underlevelled here, or rather, Barry is weirdly overlevelled. Roselia is 3HKO with ominous wind also factoring in the healing from mega drain. Pretty good matchup again.
Crasher Wake (33): outspeeds and OHKO’s Gyarados with shock wave. Floatzel outspeeds and OHKO’s you with crunch. Quagsire is 3HKO’d by ominous wind, and it only 4HKO’s back with water pulse. Decent-ish matchup.
Barry Canalave (36): Rotom outspeeds and OHKO’s raptor with wise glasses thunderbolt. Floatzel is faster and 3HKO’s with pursuit, but it’s also OHKO’d by thunderbolt. Heracross is 3HKO’d by wise glasses shadow ball, or 2HKO’d by specs. However, it also OHKO’s with night slash. Infernape and Roserade also require specs for a 2HKO, and both of them 2HKO back. Infernape is faster too.
Average matchup
Byron (36): specs thunderbolt 3HKO’s Magneton, while Magneton 4HKO’s back with its own thunderbolt. Steelix totally walls Rotom. Bastiodon is 4HKO’s by specs TBolt, while 2HKO’ing back with stone edge on a range. Below average matchup.
Saturn (38): outspeeds and 1HKO’s Golbat with thunderbolt. Bronzor is 2HKO’d, but it can’t deal any damage. Toxicroak is outsped and 3HKO’d counting sitrus berry, though you can 2HKO with specs. Faint attack 2HKO’s back though. Good matchup.
Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly outspeeds and 2HKO’s with faint attack, but wise glasses thunderbolt 2HKO’s back even counting the sitrus berry. If Rotom dodges a hypnosis, it can sweep, but that’s a big if. Pretty good matchup overall.
Candice (40): Sneasel outspeeds and 2HKO’s with faint attack, while being 2HKO’d back by thunderbolt. You need specs to 2HKO Piloswine with shadow ball, and Abomasnow survives even two specs shadow balls while 2HKO’ing back with blizzard. Froslass outpseeds and 2HKO’s with shadow ball or blizzard, while being 2HKO’d back with shadow ball. Very mediocre matchup.
Volkner (44): specs shadow ball 2HKO’s Jolteon, while taking minimal damage back from iron tail. Luxray is outsped and 2HKO’d by specs shadow ball, but crunch OHKO’s back. Electivire outspeeds and 2HKO’s while being 3HKO’d (counting sitrus) back by specs shadow ball. Raichu can’t really touch you, so you can safely 2HKO it with shadow ball despite being slower. Decent matchup.
Aaron (48): outspeeds and OHKO’s Yanmega with thunderbolt. Scizor is outsped and 2HKO’d by specs thunderbolt, and Rotom can take one night slash. The same is true for Heracross. Vespiquen is outsped and OHKO’d by specs thunderbolt. Drapion doesn’t have a dark type move, so the best thing it can use against Rotom is… ice fang, which is only a 4HKO. Meanwhile, specs Tbolt 2HKO’s even counting the sitrus berry. Pretty good matchup.
Bertha (48): specs shadow ball 2HKO’s Golem, Rhyperior and Gliscor. The former 2HKO back, while Gliscor 3HKO’s back. Gliscor is also faster though. Whishcash and Hippowdon are 3HKO’d by specs shadow ball, and they both 2HKO back, though Whishcash also likes to use sandstorm. Mediocre matchup overall.
Flint (48): It outspeeds and 2HKO’s Houndoom with specs thunderbolt, but it’s OHKO’d back with dark pulse. Flareon is 3HKO’d by specs Tbolt, but it also OHKO’s back with overheat. Infernape and Rapidash outspeed and almost OHKO’s with flare blitz, and they’re 2HKO’d by specs Tbolt. Magmortar is only 4HKO’d if you count the sitrus berry. It should technically 2HKO, but it goes for solarbeam for some reason. Overall, much too frail to do anything significant.
Lucian (49): Consistently too weak to get OHKO's, even with a specs-boosted STAB move. 2HKO's everything except Bronzong, but everything outspeeds and 2HKO's back. Honestly, not a great matchup.
Cynthia (49): Togekiss outspeed, but it can only 3HKO with water pulse. Specs thunderbolt 2HKO's back. Milotic straight up OHKO's with surf. Bad matchup.
Fantina (26): 2HKO’s Duskull, but Duskull can outspeed with shadow sneak. Mismagius outspeeds and somehow doesn’t OHKO with shadow ball, but this is most likely down to my IV’s and nature again. Shock wave is only a 4HKO anyway, if you count the sitrus berry. Rotom outspeeds and 2HKO’s Haunter, and it can take one shadow claw even after shadow sneak damage. Mediocre matchup.
Barry Hearthome(25): outspeeds and OHKO’s Staravia and Buizel with shock wave. Shock wave outspeeds and is a 2HKO on Monferno, but this is a range. It’s consistent at level 26. Flame wheel is a 3HKO back, so you can take Monferno out fairly consistently. Roselia is only 4HKO’d by uproar, and the healing from leech seed and mega drain make it so that Rotom can’t effectively break through without confuse ray luck or a crit. Pretty good matchup overall.
Maylene (30): spooky plate ominous wind outspeeds and OHKO’s Meditite. Machoke is 2HKO’d on a range, while rock tomb is only like a 5HKO. Rotom walls Lucario by virtue of its typing and ability, and you can 3HKO it with shock wave. Great matchup, Maylene can barely hit you.
Barry Pastoria (30): outspeeds and OHKO’s both Staravia and Buizel with shock wave. Monferno outspeeds and 3HKO’s with flame wheel, while Rotom 3HKO’s back with ominous wind. I should mention that I’m quite underlevelled here, or rather, Barry is weirdly overlevelled. Roselia is 3HKO with ominous wind also factoring in the healing from mega drain. Pretty good matchup again.
Crasher Wake (33): outspeeds and OHKO’s Gyarados with shock wave. Floatzel outspeeds and OHKO’s you with crunch. Quagsire is 3HKO’d by ominous wind, and it only 4HKO’s back with water pulse. Decent-ish matchup.
Barry Canalave (36): Rotom outspeeds and OHKO’s raptor with wise glasses thunderbolt. Floatzel is faster and 3HKO’s with pursuit, but it’s also OHKO’d by thunderbolt. Heracross is 3HKO’d by wise glasses shadow ball, or 2HKO’d by specs. However, it also OHKO’s with night slash. Infernape and Roserade also require specs for a 2HKO, and both of them 2HKO back. Infernape is faster too.
Average matchup
Byron (36): specs thunderbolt 3HKO’s Magneton, while Magneton 4HKO’s back with its own thunderbolt. Steelix totally walls Rotom. Bastiodon is 4HKO’s by specs TBolt, while 2HKO’ing back with stone edge on a range. Below average matchup.
Saturn (38): outspeeds and 1HKO’s Golbat with thunderbolt. Bronzor is 2HKO’d, but it can’t deal any damage. Toxicroak is outsped and 3HKO’d counting sitrus berry, though you can 2HKO with specs. Faint attack 2HKO’s back though. Good matchup.
Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly outspeeds and 2HKO’s with faint attack, but wise glasses thunderbolt 2HKO’s back even counting the sitrus berry. If Rotom dodges a hypnosis, it can sweep, but that’s a big if. Pretty good matchup overall.
Candice (40): Sneasel outspeeds and 2HKO’s with faint attack, while being 2HKO’d back by thunderbolt. You need specs to 2HKO Piloswine with shadow ball, and Abomasnow survives even two specs shadow balls while 2HKO’ing back with blizzard. Froslass outpseeds and 2HKO’s with shadow ball or blizzard, while being 2HKO’d back with shadow ball. Very mediocre matchup.
Volkner (44): specs shadow ball 2HKO’s Jolteon, while taking minimal damage back from iron tail. Luxray is outsped and 2HKO’d by specs shadow ball, but crunch OHKO’s back. Electivire outspeeds and 2HKO’s while being 3HKO’d (counting sitrus) back by specs shadow ball. Raichu can’t really touch you, so you can safely 2HKO it with shadow ball despite being slower. Decent matchup.
Aaron (48): outspeeds and OHKO’s Yanmega with thunderbolt. Scizor is outsped and 2HKO’d by specs thunderbolt, and Rotom can take one night slash. The same is true for Heracross. Vespiquen is outsped and OHKO’d by specs thunderbolt. Drapion doesn’t have a dark type move, so the best thing it can use against Rotom is… ice fang, which is only a 4HKO. Meanwhile, specs Tbolt 2HKO’s even counting the sitrus berry. Pretty good matchup.
Bertha (48): specs shadow ball 2HKO’s Golem, Rhyperior and Gliscor. The former 2HKO back, while Gliscor 3HKO’s back. Gliscor is also faster though. Whishcash and Hippowdon are 3HKO’d by specs shadow ball, and they both 2HKO back, though Whishcash also likes to use sandstorm. Mediocre matchup overall.
Flint (48): It outspeeds and 2HKO’s Houndoom with specs thunderbolt, but it’s OHKO’d back with dark pulse. Flareon is 3HKO’d by specs Tbolt, but it also OHKO’s back with overheat. Infernape and Rapidash outspeed and almost OHKO’s with flare blitz, and they’re 2HKO’d by specs Tbolt. Magmortar is only 4HKO’d if you count the sitrus berry. It should technically 2HKO, but it goes for solarbeam for some reason. Overall, much too frail to do anything significant.
Lucian (49): Consistently too weak to get OHKO's, even with a specs-boosted STAB move. 2HKO's everything except Bronzong, but everything outspeeds and 2HKO's back. Honestly, not a great matchup.
Cynthia (49): Togekiss outspeed, but it can only 3HKO with water pulse. Specs thunderbolt 2HKO's back. Milotic straight up OHKO's with surf. Bad matchup.
Fantina (20): lol
Barry 209 (20): it doesn’t even beat Roselia. Honestly, don’t use this until you get the dawn stone.
Maylene (29): Meditite always uses fake out, which is great because it raises your speed thanks to steadfast, allowing Gallade to outspeed all of Maylene’s Pokemon. After one swords dance, Gallade OHKO’s Meditite with leaf blade and Machoke and Lucario with fist plate brick break. If you don’t have access to these moves for whatever reason, you can also level up to lv 31 to get psycho cut and sweep that way. Great matchup.
Barry Pastoria (31): Staravia 2HKO’s with wing attack, but it rarely actually uses it over double team. At +1 (swords dance – intimidate), Gallade OHKO’s all of Barry’s mons with psycho cut. Buizel and Monferno outspeed though, so you have to get past Staravia without getting hit by wing attack, or use healing items to sweep. Gallade can take a flame wheel and an aqua jet. Pretty good matchup, but not fully consistent.
Crasher Wake (32): Gyarados outspeeds and 2HKO’s with waterfall, so at most you can hit it with psycho cut once. Floatzel outspeeds and 2HKO’s as well, but it’s almost OHKO’d back by leaf blade. You can survive two crunches with a sitrus berry though, so you can take Floatzel out. Quagsire is outsped and OHKO’d by leaf blade. Decent matchup.
Barry Canalave (35): Raptor outspeeds and OHKO’s with aerial ace. Infernape, Roserade and Heracross are all OHKO’d by mind plate psycho cut, but both Hera and Infernape outspeed and 2HKO. Floatzel is also OHKO’ (by leaf blade), but it also outspeeds and 3HKO’s with aqua jet. This means that Gallade can take out anyone except Staraptor one on one, but you need an x speed to take them all out back to back. Average matchup.
Byron (36): after one swords dance, brick break OHKO’s Magneton and Bastiodon, but not Steelix. If Magneton uses metal sound over thunderbolt (which is a 2HKO), you can take an EQ from Steelix and therefore sweep. With a sitrus berry, you can also take two thunderbolts from Magneton to set up two swords dances and sweep that way. Good matchup.
Saturn (38): Golbat outspeeds and usually leads with toxic, but it’s OHKO’d by psycho cut. Air cutter is a 3HKO. Bronzor is 2HKO’d by brick break. Gallade can barely take a poison jab from Toxicroak while OHKO’ing with psycho cut. Pretty good matchup, but the Gallade’s lackluster speed is annoying here.
Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly always uses fake out, which raises Gallade’s speed thanks to steadfast. This allows Gallade to outspeed and OHKO Purugly with brick break. Good matchup.
Candice (39): Sneasel outspeeds and 2HKO’s with aerial ace, and it’s OHKO’d by brick break. I think that Froslass can be 2HKO’d by night slash, but I didn’t have it. It outspeeds and 2HKO’s with shadow ball. If you set up a swords dance on Piloswine, you can OHKO it and Abomasnow with brick break. Pretty good.
Volkner (44): it 2HKO’s everything, but it gets 2HKO’d back by everything as well. Only luxray is slower, so you can’t really sweep. You’d need earthquake, swords dance and an x speed, which is way too much effort. Neutral matchup.
Aaron (48): honestly, I find it hard to make a log for this fight as it entirely depends on your moveset. Yanmega and Drapion both outspeed and 2HKO, and you can only hit them back with specific moves. Heracross just straight up outspeeds and OHKO’s with megahorn. You can’t touch Vespiquen without a rock move or fire punch. Overall, I think it’s pretty bad regardless of movepool choices tbh.
Bertha (48): miracle seed leaf blade outspeeds and OHKO’s Whishcash, Golem and Rhyperior. Hippowdon is 2HKO’d on a range. Gliscor outspeeds and 2HKO’s with earthquake, and you can’t touch it without ice punch. Decent matchup overall.
Flint (48): Houndoom outspeeds and always uses sunny day, which will turn Rapidash’s and Infernape’s Flare blitz into a OHKO later. Houndoom itself is OHKO’d by brick break. Flareon is 2HKO’d by psycho cut, but overheat OHKO’s in the sun. Magmortar outspeeds and 2HKO’s, but it’s only 3HKO’d back counting sitrus. Pretty bad tbh, everything wants you dead.
Lucian (49): uhh, I didn't have night slash so I had nothting to hit pshychics with really...
Cynthia (49): Gallade takes one shadow ball from Lucario and then fails to OHKO with brick break. Same thing Roserade and psycho cut. Everything else is a no go. Bad matchup.
Barry 209 (20): it doesn’t even beat Roselia. Honestly, don’t use this until you get the dawn stone.
Maylene (29): Meditite always uses fake out, which is great because it raises your speed thanks to steadfast, allowing Gallade to outspeed all of Maylene’s Pokemon. After one swords dance, Gallade OHKO’s Meditite with leaf blade and Machoke and Lucario with fist plate brick break. If you don’t have access to these moves for whatever reason, you can also level up to lv 31 to get psycho cut and sweep that way. Great matchup.
Barry Pastoria (31): Staravia 2HKO’s with wing attack, but it rarely actually uses it over double team. At +1 (swords dance – intimidate), Gallade OHKO’s all of Barry’s mons with psycho cut. Buizel and Monferno outspeed though, so you have to get past Staravia without getting hit by wing attack, or use healing items to sweep. Gallade can take a flame wheel and an aqua jet. Pretty good matchup, but not fully consistent.
Crasher Wake (32): Gyarados outspeeds and 2HKO’s with waterfall, so at most you can hit it with psycho cut once. Floatzel outspeeds and 2HKO’s as well, but it’s almost OHKO’d back by leaf blade. You can survive two crunches with a sitrus berry though, so you can take Floatzel out. Quagsire is outsped and OHKO’d by leaf blade. Decent matchup.
Barry Canalave (35): Raptor outspeeds and OHKO’s with aerial ace. Infernape, Roserade and Heracross are all OHKO’d by mind plate psycho cut, but both Hera and Infernape outspeed and 2HKO. Floatzel is also OHKO’ (by leaf blade), but it also outspeeds and 3HKO’s with aqua jet. This means that Gallade can take out anyone except Staraptor one on one, but you need an x speed to take them all out back to back. Average matchup.
Byron (36): after one swords dance, brick break OHKO’s Magneton and Bastiodon, but not Steelix. If Magneton uses metal sound over thunderbolt (which is a 2HKO), you can take an EQ from Steelix and therefore sweep. With a sitrus berry, you can also take two thunderbolts from Magneton to set up two swords dances and sweep that way. Good matchup.
Saturn (38): Golbat outspeeds and usually leads with toxic, but it’s OHKO’d by psycho cut. Air cutter is a 3HKO. Bronzor is 2HKO’d by brick break. Gallade can barely take a poison jab from Toxicroak while OHKO’ing with psycho cut. Pretty good matchup, but the Gallade’s lackluster speed is annoying here.
Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly always uses fake out, which raises Gallade’s speed thanks to steadfast. This allows Gallade to outspeed and OHKO Purugly with brick break. Good matchup.
Candice (39): Sneasel outspeeds and 2HKO’s with aerial ace, and it’s OHKO’d by brick break. I think that Froslass can be 2HKO’d by night slash, but I didn’t have it. It outspeeds and 2HKO’s with shadow ball. If you set up a swords dance on Piloswine, you can OHKO it and Abomasnow with brick break. Pretty good.
Volkner (44): it 2HKO’s everything, but it gets 2HKO’d back by everything as well. Only luxray is slower, so you can’t really sweep. You’d need earthquake, swords dance and an x speed, which is way too much effort. Neutral matchup.
Aaron (48): honestly, I find it hard to make a log for this fight as it entirely depends on your moveset. Yanmega and Drapion both outspeed and 2HKO, and you can only hit them back with specific moves. Heracross just straight up outspeeds and OHKO’s with megahorn. You can’t touch Vespiquen without a rock move or fire punch. Overall, I think it’s pretty bad regardless of movepool choices tbh.
Bertha (48): miracle seed leaf blade outspeeds and OHKO’s Whishcash, Golem and Rhyperior. Hippowdon is 2HKO’d on a range. Gliscor outspeeds and 2HKO’s with earthquake, and you can’t touch it without ice punch. Decent matchup overall.
Flint (48): Houndoom outspeeds and always uses sunny day, which will turn Rapidash’s and Infernape’s Flare blitz into a OHKO later. Houndoom itself is OHKO’d by brick break. Flareon is 2HKO’d by psycho cut, but overheat OHKO’s in the sun. Magmortar outspeeds and 2HKO’s, but it’s only 3HKO’d back counting sitrus. Pretty bad tbh, everything wants you dead.
Lucian (49): uhh, I didn't have night slash so I had nothting to hit pshychics with really...
Cynthia (49): Gallade takes one shadow ball from Lucario and then fails to OHKO with brick break. Same thing Roserade and psycho cut. Everything else is a no go. Bad matchup.
Barry Canalave (33): it can take one hit from Heracross and it OHKO’s with fly on a range. If you manage to grind to Altaria, you should be able to beat Heracross reliably. Roserade can’t do much damage to Swablu and it’s 2HKO’d by fly. Not great, but honestly better than expected.
Byron (35): there are two options, earthquake and specs fire blast. Earthquake doesn’t even OHKO Magneton at level 35, so it’s not worth it imo. Specs fire blast OHKO’s Magneton and it’s a range on Steelix. Altaria can barely take one ice fang or one stone edge from Bastiodon. Not the most consistent matchup because it’s hard to properly level Altaria up for this fight.
Saturn (37): Golbat outspeeds, but it can’t deal all that much damage to Altaria. Dragon breath or Fly 2HKO’s it. You need a fire type move to cover Bronzor or it will wall Altaria. Toxicroak outspeeds and 2HKO’s with poison jab, though it sometimes goes for revenge for some reason. Fly is a 2HKO on a range, counting the sitrus berry. Below average matchup.
Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly outspeeds and 4HKO’s with slash (3HKO if you factor in fake out). Altaria’s draco plate dragonbreath 4HKO’s as well, counting the sitrus berry. You need healing to beat Purugly one on one. Below average matchup.
Candice (39): the best you can do is OHKO Abomasnow with specs fire blast. It comes close to OHKO’ing Piloswine as well. Mediocre matchup.
Volkner (44): you need 3 dragon dances to sweep with earthquake, and since Jolteon doesn’t even 3HKO Alteria, this is easily set up. Good matchup, but you do need earthquake. Or dragon claw + more dragon dances I guess.
Aaron (48): Yanmega 3HKO’s with air slash, so you can set up 2 dragon dances max. This is enough to hit OHKO Yanmega with fly, but Drapion then immediately ends the sweep because +2 earthquake doesn’t even come close to OHKO’ing. Heracross outspeeds and OHKO’s with stone edge, and you can’t touch Scizor without fire blast. You might be able to set up on Vespiquen, but it would be far from efficient. Overall, poor matchup.
Bertha (48): I could set up 4 dragon dances before needing to heal, and even at +4, dragon claw didn’t even OHKO Whishcash… So yeah, you just can’t break any of Bertha’s Pokemon. Bad matchup.
Flint (48): Houndoom always leads with sunny day, and it 3HKO’s with dark pulse. This means that you can set up three dragon dances, which is enough to sweep with earthquake. Be sure to heal on Flareon or you’ll die to quick attack. Good matchup.
Lucian (50): Mr.Mime always uses turn 1 and 2 for reflect and light screen, so you get two free turns of setup. Altaria can take two psychics, so you can set up to +4. Fly will then OHKO Mr. Mime, Gallade and Espeon back to back. Bronzong stops the sweep. Not terrible, but too setup reliant.
Cynthia (51): you need the full +6 even to just OHKO Spiritomb... so needless to say, bad matchup.
Byron (35): there are two options, earthquake and specs fire blast. Earthquake doesn’t even OHKO Magneton at level 35, so it’s not worth it imo. Specs fire blast OHKO’s Magneton and it’s a range on Steelix. Altaria can barely take one ice fang or one stone edge from Bastiodon. Not the most consistent matchup because it’s hard to properly level Altaria up for this fight.
Saturn (37): Golbat outspeeds, but it can’t deal all that much damage to Altaria. Dragon breath or Fly 2HKO’s it. You need a fire type move to cover Bronzor or it will wall Altaria. Toxicroak outspeeds and 2HKO’s with poison jab, though it sometimes goes for revenge for some reason. Fly is a 2HKO on a range, counting the sitrus berry. Below average matchup.
Mars (38): see above for Golbat and Bronzor. Purugly outspeeds and 4HKO’s with slash (3HKO if you factor in fake out). Altaria’s draco plate dragonbreath 4HKO’s as well, counting the sitrus berry. You need healing to beat Purugly one on one. Below average matchup.
Candice (39): the best you can do is OHKO Abomasnow with specs fire blast. It comes close to OHKO’ing Piloswine as well. Mediocre matchup.
Volkner (44): you need 3 dragon dances to sweep with earthquake, and since Jolteon doesn’t even 3HKO Alteria, this is easily set up. Good matchup, but you do need earthquake. Or dragon claw + more dragon dances I guess.
Aaron (48): Yanmega 3HKO’s with air slash, so you can set up 2 dragon dances max. This is enough to hit OHKO Yanmega with fly, but Drapion then immediately ends the sweep because +2 earthquake doesn’t even come close to OHKO’ing. Heracross outspeeds and OHKO’s with stone edge, and you can’t touch Scizor without fire blast. You might be able to set up on Vespiquen, but it would be far from efficient. Overall, poor matchup.
Bertha (48): I could set up 4 dragon dances before needing to heal, and even at +4, dragon claw didn’t even OHKO Whishcash… So yeah, you just can’t break any of Bertha’s Pokemon. Bad matchup.
Flint (48): Houndoom always leads with sunny day, and it 3HKO’s with dark pulse. This means that you can set up three dragon dances, which is enough to sweep with earthquake. Be sure to heal on Flareon or you’ll die to quick attack. Good matchup.
Lucian (50): Mr.Mime always uses turn 1 and 2 for reflect and light screen, so you get two free turns of setup. Altaria can take two psychics, so you can set up to +4. Fly will then OHKO Mr. Mime, Gallade and Espeon back to back. Bronzong stops the sweep. Not terrible, but too setup reliant.
Cynthia (51): you need the full +6 even to just OHKO Spiritomb... so needless to say, bad matchup.
Ponyta -> C tier
Pros
- great availability
- good typing
- good early game stats
- decent amount of good matchups
- shallow movepool
- very late evolution level
- bad mid-game dip
Rotom -> C tier
Pros
- high level at catch
- good stats at catch
- very unique typing with many immunities
- shallow movepool
- rather weak even with specs
- stats fall off in the late game
Ralts (Gallade) -> C tier
Pros
- high attack
- good offensive typing
- good movepool that includes natural swords dance
- completely useless before Gallade stage
- consistent speed issues
- four slot movepool syndrome
- high maintenance
Swablu -> D tier
Pros
- solid bulk
- colorful movepool
- dragon dance at a reasonable level
- available rather late
- very weak
- needs way too many dragon dances to sweep anything
Doing a Plat run because of BDSP, Torterra/Lopunny/Probopass/Glaceon/Rotom is the endgame so the windworks are going to be hell. Not going out of my way to avoid trainers or Pokemon, but not grinding either unless a pokemon needs to level up in a particular area to evolve..
I know I didn't include it at the start but I'm considering giving Dustox a go. Do you think it needs a second look or is E-Tier a very fair evaluation?
Grab my Turtwig because course I am, how else am I going to get Torterra and it's Timid. Fuck it, he's got good IV's. We roll.
Work my way through Route 201/2 to Jubilife and I'm level 9, completely forgetting to grab a Bidoof in the process. I head north forgetting that you can't grab Rock Tomb without Rock Smash and end up hitting level 10 in time for Rival 2 : Starly @ 7 and Chimchar @ 9. This was annoying : Starly got off 2 growls before going down so Tackle wasn't doing any more than Absorb, while his Chmichar used Leer like 4 times so Scratch was verging on a 2 hit. Never used Ember for some reason, which was lucky for me because it meant he couldn't burn. It took 4 potions but I won.
After refiling my potions stash I headed fro Oreburgh, picking up a Bidoof on 206. While in the gate Turtwig learns Razor Leaf, so I'm prepared for Roark. Unfortunately, he's not there so I have to go to the mine. One fight against a worker, 2 or three Onix/Geodude and a conversation later Roark has headed back to the gym. I wish he gave you the Eeveelution stones like he does in Renegade Platinum. 1 Withdraw and 5 Razor Leafs later, I have the Coal Badge, Turtwig is 1 battle away from hitting 16 and I learn that skipped gym trainers don't battle you after the leader is defeated.
Heading back to Jubilife a wild Shinx pushes Turtwig over the lip to 16, which is nice, then it's time for our first encounter with Team Galactic. It's a bit of a joke really, much like galactic themselves. Beat the Stunky to death because it's the only one that is even remotely a threat and then finish off Glameow with Razor Leaf. I finally get to pick up Rock Tomb and... Turtwig can't learn it. I really hope Grotle can or it's going to waste, because it's not better than Rock Throw which Nosepass will have when I catch it.
While on the way to Floroma Town I actually black out, haven not gotten any antidotes before hand as I thought I could avoid the bug trainer. Bidoof the HM slave actually won that fight but then got battered by a Starly. On my second attempt I make it, picking up Bullet Seed in the process and I can't help but wonder, who thought this was a good idea? Like if you got it before the first gym then fine, but pre-buff Bullet Seed is a move that everything that can learn it will have either outclassed by the time you get it, or will within a level or 2. I still slap it on Turtwig as a way to preserve PP for Razor Leaf, but what was the point. Anyway, it's time for hell pt1 : The Valley Windworks. The guy at the door isn't that bad, annoying more than anything due to Hypnosis, and the two trying to steal honey aren't much better, even if the second has flinch and confusion. Mars, even before fighting her, is someone I know will be a tough challenge with her stupidly underlevelled Purugly. Thankfully I have an ace up my sleeve : Because Turtwig's getting all the XP he hits level 18 and evolves after the honey grunts, which is a big help even if it doesn't change my strategy of "Curse on her Zubat and pray she doesn't crit."
Grotle also can't learn Rock Tomb. Why can Grotle not learn Rock Tomb. Piplup can learn Rock Tomb. Monferno can learn Rock Tomb. But Grotle, the one with the closest connection to the Rock typing, can't learn Rock Tomb. Why can Grotle not learn Rock Tomb. On a related note, each of the three starters has a different stage that they can first learn Rock Tomb : Piplup at stage 1, Chimchar at stage 2 and Turtwig, which evolves into the very closely related Ground type, at stage 3. For some reason.
After that threw a slight spanner in my plan of burying Mars' Zubat after cursing up to +6 I made sure I had Antidotes and went at her, avoiding the trainers because he's starting to get a bit silly now. My plan worked perfectly. After the first Toxic missed Zubat tried to take me down with repeated Bites and Leech Lifes but they just weren't nearly enough, completely failing to stop me from boosting to +6. It eventually went for Toxic again, and connected, but an Antidote quickly took care of that. After slamming it aside with Tackle I went up against the terror that was Purugly and crushed it. Heal up as it used Fake Out, shrig off a Scratch and then blow it away with Critical, +6 Razor Leaf.
Still only got 1 proper Pokemon, though that's soon to change as Buneary can be caught in Eterna Forest and Nosepass in Mt. Coronet, where they also evolve to absolutely no downside.
On my way to Eterna Forest I get undeniable proof of just how shit pre-buff Bullet Seed is : 9 levels higher, evolved v unevolved and a type advantage isn't enough for it to 2-hit. Why is this thing not available until after the first gym, it would fit so perfectly as the move to help out players who picked Chimchar.
Shortly after entering Eterna Forest and teaming up with Cheryl, I run into a mandatory battle with a bug catcher. If only I had a rock type move.
Caught a Buneary, first try. Lonely with good IV's too. Yes I know I fucked up the nickname.
That's the last we'll be seeing of Grotle for the rest of the forest at least unless Buneary gets knocked out.
Or, as it turns out, I'm fighting a trainer that only has one Pokemon. Level 17 HP Fighting Abras. Really glad I switched. On more positive notes, Buneary levels up really quick and Frustration hits like a runaway train. By the time I got out Buneary was level 15 and I had caught a Dustox, who I named Axl because my brain makes some weird connections sometimes. No picture because he won't be getting used. On to Eterna, Mt. Coronet and Nosepass now.
He's Quiet and has bad IVs so if I find another one quick enough while evolving him I'll catch it.
They're like buses
Spent 20 minutes before I got Gavin, Meg was literally my first encounter when I went to train him. Couple of battles later, including against Zubat kid and...
I think this is a good place to end it, my teams isn't going to get any better right now without hunting for trainers to fight and anyway it's like 1 in the morning, so I'll leave you with a team image :
Work my way through Route 201/2 to Jubilife and I'm level 9, completely forgetting to grab a Bidoof in the process. I head north forgetting that you can't grab Rock Tomb without Rock Smash and end up hitting level 10 in time for Rival 2 : Starly @ 7 and Chimchar @ 9. This was annoying : Starly got off 2 growls before going down so Tackle wasn't doing any more than Absorb, while his Chmichar used Leer like 4 times so Scratch was verging on a 2 hit. Never used Ember for some reason, which was lucky for me because it meant he couldn't burn. It took 4 potions but I won.
After refiling my potions stash I headed fro Oreburgh, picking up a Bidoof on 206. While in the gate Turtwig learns Razor Leaf, so I'm prepared for Roark. Unfortunately, he's not there so I have to go to the mine. One fight against a worker, 2 or three Onix/Geodude and a conversation later Roark has headed back to the gym. I wish he gave you the Eeveelution stones like he does in Renegade Platinum. 1 Withdraw and 5 Razor Leafs later, I have the Coal Badge, Turtwig is 1 battle away from hitting 16 and I learn that skipped gym trainers don't battle you after the leader is defeated.
Heading back to Jubilife a wild Shinx pushes Turtwig over the lip to 16, which is nice, then it's time for our first encounter with Team Galactic. It's a bit of a joke really, much like galactic themselves. Beat the Stunky to death because it's the only one that is even remotely a threat and then finish off Glameow with Razor Leaf. I finally get to pick up Rock Tomb and... Turtwig can't learn it. I really hope Grotle can or it's going to waste, because it's not better than Rock Throw which Nosepass will have when I catch it.
While on the way to Floroma Town I actually black out, haven not gotten any antidotes before hand as I thought I could avoid the bug trainer. Bidoof the HM slave actually won that fight but then got battered by a Starly. On my second attempt I make it, picking up Bullet Seed in the process and I can't help but wonder, who thought this was a good idea? Like if you got it before the first gym then fine, but pre-buff Bullet Seed is a move that everything that can learn it will have either outclassed by the time you get it, or will within a level or 2. I still slap it on Turtwig as a way to preserve PP for Razor Leaf, but what was the point. Anyway, it's time for hell pt1 : The Valley Windworks. The guy at the door isn't that bad, annoying more than anything due to Hypnosis, and the two trying to steal honey aren't much better, even if the second has flinch and confusion. Mars, even before fighting her, is someone I know will be a tough challenge with her stupidly underlevelled Purugly. Thankfully I have an ace up my sleeve : Because Turtwig's getting all the XP he hits level 18 and evolves after the honey grunts, which is a big help even if it doesn't change my strategy of "Curse on her Zubat and pray she doesn't crit."
Grotle also can't learn Rock Tomb. Why can Grotle not learn Rock Tomb. Piplup can learn Rock Tomb. Monferno can learn Rock Tomb. But Grotle, the one with the closest connection to the Rock typing, can't learn Rock Tomb. Why can Grotle not learn Rock Tomb. On a related note, each of the three starters has a different stage that they can first learn Rock Tomb : Piplup at stage 1, Chimchar at stage 2 and Turtwig, which evolves into the very closely related Ground type, at stage 3. For some reason.
After that threw a slight spanner in my plan of burying Mars' Zubat after cursing up to +6 I made sure I had Antidotes and went at her, avoiding the trainers because he's starting to get a bit silly now. My plan worked perfectly. After the first Toxic missed Zubat tried to take me down with repeated Bites and Leech Lifes but they just weren't nearly enough, completely failing to stop me from boosting to +6. It eventually went for Toxic again, and connected, but an Antidote quickly took care of that. After slamming it aside with Tackle I went up against the terror that was Purugly and crushed it. Heal up as it used Fake Out, shrig off a Scratch and then blow it away with Critical, +6 Razor Leaf.
Still only got 1 proper Pokemon, though that's soon to change as Buneary can be caught in Eterna Forest and Nosepass in Mt. Coronet, where they also evolve to absolutely no downside.
On my way to Eterna Forest I get undeniable proof of just how shit pre-buff Bullet Seed is : 9 levels higher, evolved v unevolved and a type advantage isn't enough for it to 2-hit. Why is this thing not available until after the first gym, it would fit so perfectly as the move to help out players who picked Chimchar.
Shortly after entering Eterna Forest and teaming up with Cheryl, I run into a mandatory battle with a bug catcher. If only I had a rock type move.
Caught a Buneary, first try. Lonely with good IV's too. Yes I know I fucked up the nickname.
That's the last we'll be seeing of Grotle for the rest of the forest at least unless Buneary gets knocked out.
Or, as it turns out, I'm fighting a trainer that only has one Pokemon. Level 17 HP Fighting Abras. Really glad I switched. On more positive notes, Buneary levels up really quick and Frustration hits like a runaway train. By the time I got out Buneary was level 15 and I had caught a Dustox, who I named Axl because my brain makes some weird connections sometimes. No picture because he won't be getting used. On to Eterna, Mt. Coronet and Nosepass now.
He's Quiet and has bad IVs so if I find another one quick enough while evolving him I'll catch it.
They're like buses
Spent 20 minutes before I got Gavin, Meg was literally my first encounter when I went to train him. Couple of battles later, including against Zubat kid and...
I think this is a good place to end it, my teams isn't going to get any better right now without hunting for trainers to fight and anyway it's like 1 in the morning, so I'll leave you with a team image :
I know I didn't include it at the start but I'm considering giving Dustox a go. Do you think it needs a second look or is E-Tier a very fair evaluation?
That sounds a bit excessive tbh... To say the least.
It's always good to have a second look and you're using it anyway.
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