DPPt In-Game Tier List Thread v2

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That sounds a bit excessive tbh... To say the least.
I have lost too many nuzlockes to that thing shrugging off what I thought was a more than strong enough shot to not go for overkill without even thinking about it.


It's always good to have a second look and you're using it anyway.
Then I will, was just asking because if 10 people say E and 1 says something higher that 1 probably just happens to play in a way that plays to its strengths.
 
I have lost too many nuzlockes to that thing shrugging off what I thought was a more than strong enough shot to not go for overkill without even thinking about it.
Makes sense I guess lol. Still, I gotta ask for the "non-overkill" strats next time.

Then I will, was just asking because if 10 people say E and 1 says something higher that 1 probably just happens to play in a way that plays to its strengths.
Either way, data is always good. Besides, as long as you're being clear on how you're getting your results like you were on that log, people can take their own conclusions.
 
I just woke up, so it's time for more Platinum. Might do Pearl after I finish.

After some discussion it has been decided that Dustox could do with a second look, so without further ado

Axl.png
Axl IV Check.png


Welcome Axl to the team.

With that out of the way I go to the gym and... the first trainer has 2 17s. My levels other than Grotle are 14, 15 and 16. Time to go fight those fishermen I skipped earlier I guess. They went down pretty easy except for the one nearest Eterna Forest and his fucking Goldeen which hit 4 Supersonics, all of which had Probopass hit itself until it snapped out. After that I went and fought the bird keeper that blocks you from getting to Taunt, Probopass flattened him. At this point I realise I forgot to get the underground kit for shards.

Well that was a waste. 20 minutes and I found 1 shard. Not acquired, found. That is very much not efficient, so I guess I'm not getting any tutor moves. Anyway, with all of the trainers that will give notable XP out of the way it's time for the gym. While I'm still not going to, I think a little bit of grinding might be intended, as I'm still underleveled apart from Grotle. The trainers are kind of a cakewalk, despite the fact that one of them has a level 19 and I decided to not use Grotle unless I have to to give the others a chance to catch up.

Gardenia... wasn't much better. Dustox swept her with ease, only taking so long because I had the "genius" idea of keeping him paralysed so that Roserade couldn't poison me, as that was the only real danger with Magical Leaf being an 8HKO without critting. I got parahaxed 7 times in a row. Should have just used one of my 10 antidotes. With the forest badge I can now use Cut outside of battle, which allows me to get into the Old Chateau and catch Rotom.

I finally manage it on my third try and... Adamant with 0-4 Sp. Atk IV. No.
Try 2 : Broke out of all my pokeballs. Fuck.
Tries 3-7 : Broke out of all my pokeballs. Again.
Try 8 : Backtracked to Oreburgh for the Duskball, which didn't even shake once before my first pokeball caught him. Still less of a bitch then finding my first Nosepass. Quriky, great attacking/speed IVs. Welcome Siri.

Siri stats.png
sIRI.png


Its got Thundershock, Confuse Ray, Double Team and Uproar, which only has 50 power. Could have sworn it was 90, did it get a buff at some point?
Anyway, I'll just grab Thief for Dustox, which for some reason is behind 2 Cut trees even though there's nothing inbetween them, and it's time for Galactic Eterna Building aka Hell pt2. The grunts were, once again, not very difficult. Buneary blew them all up with Frustration once Rotom had shocked enough to hit level 22. Jupiter, on the other hand, was dangerous. Her Zubat went down in 2 Rock Throws from Probopass, but then Skuntank came out and lived up to its name. Screech cuts throught Probopass' defences as it shrugs off 2 Rock Smashes despite the first one lowering its defence before Night Slash takes Probo down, Rotom brings it to just under half with a crit Shock Wave before going down himself, Buneary barely hangs on before doing a chunk with Frustration and pushing it to the edge with Quick Attack so Dustox can finish it off with Gust after surviving a Night Slash with half hp. Honestly, even if he ends up dropping off massively I'd say that if you can catch a Dustox as one rather than evolving a Cascoon you should as it helps out so much in Eterna Gym and is tanky for this stage in the game.

Cynthia pls let me go to the bike shop. Seriously, I'd get it if she tried to stop you from leaving Eterna to give you the egg but why can you not go to the bike shop, the plaec you were just told to go, without first depositing one of your pokemon to pick up an egg. After getting her to fuck off and picking up a bike I head for the cycling road. As I do so it occurs to me that a little bit of grinding might be necessary in the future as you can't always bring 6 battlers with you in Sinnoh. A problem for later. While on the cycling road Probopass gets quite the work out, as literally everything the trainers have is A: Weak to Rock, B: Physically frail or C: Both. Once he hits level 20 I give him a break, instead putting Buneary up top and she also hit level 20. After making a quick stop in thr Oreburgh Gate to pick up Brick Break, which nothing I have can learn for some reason, I head to the hidden entrance to Wayward Cave, because if you're looking up what the best pokemon to use are for a casual playthrough chances are you're looking up all the secrets. After doing that I make my way through Mt. Coronet towards Hearthome City and the last member of my party : Eevee.
First try I get Run Away. No. 2nd try : Docil, Adaptability, decent special + speed IVs, I'll take it. Welcome Boreas.

bOREAS.png
Boreas IV.png


I swing by Amity Square to pick up Secret Power and the Amulet Coin, the former for Eevee as he doesn't have anything other than Tackle right now, the latter for general money gaining. I also give Earthquake to Probopass as the only other thing I have that will be able to learn it is Torterra, which doesn't need the TM. Speaking of Grotle/Torterra, I finally get around to giving him Grass Knot. Nothing else to do now, so it's time to fight Hearthome Gym.
The gym trainers are, as always, pushovers. The real challenge is Fantina herself. Who thought a gym leader who spams Confuse Ray and, on her Haunter, Hypnosis was good game design? Because it's not. She's not even that difficult, just annoying as hell because you're constantly smacking yourself in the face. Rotom battered away at Duskull with Shock Wave until it went down, at which point Dustox finished it off. Eevee came in to take the Future Sight and try to lower Misdreavus' accuracy with Sand Attack but fucking Confuse Ray meant he didn't get off a single one because he was constantly smacking himself in the face. Probopass came in and whittled it down with Rock Throw until it was right on the edge of yellow health, at which point I sacked him so Grotle wouldn't be coming in to a Shadow Ball and get 2HKO before he could finish it off with Bite. Haunter went 1 on 1 with Buneary, whose Frustration is starting to drop off, and couldn't really do anything except pray she knocked herself out as Sucker Puch wasn't doing nearly enough to be reliable. Unfortunately, I had potions to spare and managed to beat him down eventually. Seriously, fuck that battle.

A battle that is not nearly as annoying is Rival 3, which revealed a potentially very big problem : I have 1 pokemon that isn't weak to the combination of Fire and Fighting. Here Eevee got his first proper taste of battle, Adaptability Secret Power being enough to take down Buizel and Roselia. Probopass managed to bring down Staravia with 2 Rock Throws despite missing 6 as it Double Teamed and Rotom softened Monferno up enough that Buneary was able to take it down with Quick Attack. Now onwards to Celestic Town, because for some reason they removed the choice of fighting Wake or Maylene first. At this rate Dustox will have learned Silver Wind naturally by the time I get the TM.

I make my to Celestic Town, doing my best to evenly spread out XP so my team is balanced rather than 1 or 2 getting way over-levelled like Grotle was early on, and head to the Lost Tower to pick up a second copy of Return. Nothing else to do here so I head on to Veilstone, working my way through trainers as I go. Eevee continues to impress, being perhaps my best weapon against Bronzor right now. None of the trainers here are hard either as they removed the Gyarados/Luxray(?) from the duo at the end of the route, as I discovered when I sent out Probo/Rotom to counter it only for them to be a bad matchup against Gligar and Roselia. I pick up Shock Wave after going to Veilstone as I forgot that you need Cut. After getting Buneary a massage I look around and discover that you can go south and around from Veilstone to get to Pastoria. Finally I can get Dustox some STAB.

On the way I stop off by Dr. Footstep and discover that the reason Buneary's Frustration has dropped off so much is she's actually close enough to me that Return is stronger. So I taught it to her. I also picked up 2 heart scales, 1 of which I used to teach Probopass Magnet Bomb. After navigating my way to Silver Wind and nearly getting battered by teh pokefan with the Umbreon and Espeon I decided to head back to Hearthome to see was there any items that I couldn't pick up before because they were blocked off, and there were: Sunny Day. Not exactly worth nearly getting thrashed by the ranger double battle. It's been a couple of hours now, so that's enough for today. Team Photo:

nuzlocke-8dccd99f-226c-4a98-b82d-b2b210851b15.png



Ranking So Far :

A-Tier
These Pokémon are highly efficient and well-recommended but have minor flaws that prevent them from being broken such as a crippling matchup, availability issues or a weak period without absolute dominance afterward.

Going purely off his contributions since Eterna Gym since obviously he's going to be uber efficient when overleveled, I have to agree with the current ranking. He's too slow and doesn't have the coverage to absolutely dominate the game, as well as being really bad against Skuntank, but he can power over most neutral pokemon with either Razor Leaf or Bite and those he can't normally can't do enough damage to stop him from boosting up on.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Very much a glass cannon. Frustration, especially at the start, was like a hammer but the fact that your best STAB drops off as things get bulkier is not a good combo on its own. Throw in the fact that if they survive and strike back you are going to be crippled? She's powerful enough that they normally don't, but that definitely fits the B-Tier definition IMO.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Not a powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination, especially since you don't get STAB until after Fantina, but between self healing to save on items, decent typing and good bulk for when you get it Dustox, as its own thing, is good early on. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, it's got some noticeable flaws such as not doing much damage if it can't hit super effectively and being very rare as the Dustox you want to catch it as, but when you catch it it's ready to contribute immediately. Kind of a borderline one to be honest but since C specifically mentions needing support to reach their potential and all it needs is a TM that nothing else wants I'm placing it here for now, it will probably drop off hard after Veilstone.

D-Tier
These Pokémon are decent. They'll have significant flaws but will get you to the endgame provided with the proper support.

Basically the exact opposite of Buneary. Unless you give it Earthquake, which quite a few pokemon want, it is not going to hit very hard at all, but it never, ever goes down unless the opponent has a type advantage and even then weaker pokemon can often be shrugged off. The main problem is that if you don't give it Earthquake you pretty much have to wait until Byron for a powerful attack. Useful in certain situations but even Dustox probably does more damage overall as more things are weak to its moves then Fighting/Ground/Rock or Steel.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

It's not the bulkiest, the coverage is poor and its only stab for 9 levels is resisted by grass types such as the very common Roselia. It's powerful enough that it doesn't need the extra coverage that badly most of the time, but when up against something that it does it will normally do really badly, as even off its Sp. Attack non-STAB, pre-buff Uproar is not enough for a Rock type. I imagine it will step up once I get Ominous Wind. Now if only they didn't have the "brilliant" idea of locking Rotoms gimmick away behind an event in Platinum.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Does he have a way to hit Rock/Steel types? No. Does he have a way to hit Ghosts? Also no. Everything else gets battered by Adaptability Secret Power, even resists like Bronzor getting overpowered. He's quite frail and doesn't have a way to power over his problems like Buneary has, so this is a low B to her high, but there's a reason he's the highest leveled pokemon on my team despite being the lowest when I got him.

Yes I know the top said Veilstone but I'm in Hearthome. I'm titling these based off of where I am in the story.
 
I just woke up, so it's time for more Platinum. Might do Pearl after I finish.

After some discussion it has been decided that Dustox could do with a second look, so without further ado

View attachment 327866View attachment 327867

Welcome Axl to the team.

With that out of the way I go to the gym and... the first trainer has 2 17s. My levels other than Grotle are 14, 15 and 16. Time to go fight those fishermen I skipped earlier I guess. They went down pretty easy except for the one nearest Eterna Forest and his fucking Goldeen which hit 4 Supersonics, all of which had Probopass hit itself until it snapped out. After that I went and fought the bird keeper that blocks you from getting to Taunt, Probopass flattened him. At this point I realise I forgot to get the underground kit for shards.

Well that was a waste. 20 minutes and I found 1 shard. Not acquired, found. That is very much not efficient, so I guess I'm not getting any tutor moves. Anyway, with all of the trainers that will give notable XP out of the way it's time for the gym. While I'm still not going to, I think a little bit of grinding might be intended, as I'm still underleveled apart from Grotle. The trainers are kind of a cakewalk, despite the fact that one of them has a level 19 and I decided to not use Grotle unless I have to to give the others a chance to catch up.

Gardenia... wasn't much better. Dustox swept her with ease, only taking so long because I had the "genius" idea of keeping him paralysed so that Roserade couldn't poison me, as that was the only real danger with Magical Leaf being an 8HKO without critting. I got parahaxed 7 times in a row. Should have just used one of my 10 antidotes. With the forest badge I can now use Cut outside of battle, which allows me to get into the Old Chateau and catch Rotom.

I finally manage it on my third try and... Adamant with 0-4 Sp. Atk IV. No.
Try 2 : Broke out of all my pokeballs. Fuck.
Tries 3-7 : Broke out of all my pokeballs. Again.
Try 8 : Backtracked to Oreburgh for the Duskball, which didn't even shake once before my first pokeball caught him. Still less of a bitch then finding my first Nosepass. Quriky, great attacking/speed IVs. Welcome Siri.

View attachment 327871View attachment 327872

Its got Thundershock, Confuse Ray, Double Team and Uproar, which only has 50 power. Could have sworn it was 90, did it get a buff at some point?
Anyway, I'll just grab Thief for Dustox, which for some reason is behind 2 Cut trees even though there's nothing inbetween them, and it's time for Galactic Eterna Building aka Hell pt2. The grunts were, once again, not very difficult. Buneary blew them all up with Frustration once Rotom had shocked enough to hit level 22. Jupiter, on the other hand, was dangerous. Her Zubat went down in 2 Rock Throws from Probopass, but then Skuntank came out and lived up to its name. Screech cuts throught Probopass' defences as it shrugs off 2 Rock Smashes despite the first one lowering its defence before Night Slash takes Probo down, Rotom brings it to just under half with a crit Shock Wave before going down himself, Buneary barely hangs on before doing a chunk with Frustration and pushing it to the edge with Quick Attack so Dustox can finish it off with Gust after surviving a Night Slash with half hp. Honestly, even if he ends up dropping off massively I'd say that if you can catch a Dustox as one rather than evolving a Cascoon you should as it helps out so much in Eterna Gym and is tanky for this stage in the game.

Cynthia pls let me go to the bike shop. Seriously, I'd get it if she tried to stop you from leaving Eterna to give you the egg but why can you not go to the bike shop, the plaec you were just told to go, without first depositing one of your pokemon to pick up an egg. After getting her to fuck off and picking up a bike I head for the cycling road. As I do so it occurs to me that a little bit of grinding might be necessary in the future as you can't always bring 6 battlers with you in Sinnoh. A problem for later. While on the cycling road Probopass gets quite the work out, as literally everything the trainers have is A: Weak to Rock, B: Physically frail or C: Both. Once he hits level 20 I give him a break, instead putting Buneary up top and she also hit level 20. After making a quick stop in thr Oreburgh Gate to pick up Brick Break, which nothing I have can learn for some reason, I head to the hidden entrance to Wayward Cave, because if you're looking up what the best pokemon to use are for a casual playthrough chances are you're looking up all the secrets. After doing that I make my way through Mt. Coronet towards Hearthome City and the last member of my party : Eevee.
First try I get Run Away. No. 2nd try : Docil, Adaptability, decent special + speed IVs, I'll take it. Welcome Boreas.

View attachment 327876View attachment 327877

I swing by Amity Square to pick up Secret Power and the Amulet Coin, the former for Eevee as he doesn't have anything other than Tackle right now, the latter for general money gaining. I also give Earthquake to Probopass as the only other thing I have that will be able to learn it is Torterra, which doesn't need the TM. Speaking of Grotle/Torterra, I finally get around to giving him Grass Knot. Nothing else to do now, so it's time to fight Hearthome Gym.
The gym trainers are, as always, pushovers. The real challenge is Fantina herself. Who thought a gym leader who spams Confuse Ray and, on her Haunter, Hypnosis was good game design? Because it's not. She's not even that difficult, just annoying as hell because you're constantly smacking yourself in the face. Rotom battered away at Duskull with Shock Wave until it went down, at which point Dustox finished it off. Eevee came in to take the Future Sight and try to lower Misdreavus' accuracy with Sand Attack but fucking Confuse Ray meant he didn't get off a single one because he was constantly smacking himself in the face. Probopass came in and whittled it down with Rock Throw until it was right on the edge of yellow health, at which point I sacked him so Grotle wouldn't be coming in to a Shadow Ball and get 2HKO before he could finish it off with Bite. Haunter went 1 on 1 with Buneary, whose Frustration is starting to drop off, and couldn't really do anything except pray she knocked herself out as Sucker Puch wasn't doing nearly enough to be reliable. Unfortunately, I had potions to spare and managed to beat him down eventually. Seriously, fuck that battle.

A battle that is not nearly as annoying is Rival 3, which revealed a potentially very big problem : I have 1 pokemon that isn't weak to the combination of Fire and Fighting. Here Eevee got his first proper taste of battle, Adaptability Secret Power being enough to take down Buizel and Roselia. Probopass managed to bring down Staravia with 2 Rock Throws despite missing 6 as it Double Teamed and Rotom softened Monferno up enough that Buneary was able to take it down with Quick Attack. Now onwards to Celestic Town, because for some reason they removed the choice of fighting Wake or Maylene first. At this rate Dustox will have learned Silver Wind naturally by the time I get the TM.

I make my to Celestic Town, doing my best to evenly spread out XP so my team is balanced rather than 1 or 2 getting way over-levelled like Grotle was early on, and head to the Lost Tower to pick up a second copy of Return. Nothing else to do here so I head on to Veilstone, working my way through trainers as I go. Eevee continues to impress, being perhaps my best weapon against Bronzor right now. None of the trainers here are hard either as they removed the Gyarados/Luxray(?) from the duo at the end of the route, as I discovered when I sent out Probo/Rotom to counter it only for them to be a bad matchup against Gligar and Roselia. I pick up Shock Wave after going to Veilstone as I forgot that you need Cut. After getting Buneary a massage I look around and discover that you can go south and around from Veilstone to get to Pastoria. Finally I can get Dustox some STAB.

On the way I stop off by Dr. Footstep and discover that the reason Buneary's Frustration has dropped off so much is she's actually close enough to me that Return is stronger. So I taught it to her. I also picked up 2 heart scales, 1 of which I used to teach Probopass Magnet Bomb. After navigating my way to Silver Wind and nearly getting battered by teh pokefan with the Umbreon and Espeon I decided to head back to Hearthome to see was there any items that I couldn't pick up before because they were blocked off, and there were: Sunny Day. Not exactly worth nearly getting thrashed by the ranger double battle. It's been a couple of hours now, so that's enough for today. Team Photo:

View attachment 327895


Ranking So Far :

A-Tier
These Pokémon are highly efficient and well-recommended but have minor flaws that prevent them from being broken such as a crippling matchup, availability issues or a weak period without absolute dominance afterward.

Going purely off his contributions since Eterna Gym since obviously he's going to be uber efficient when overleveled, I have to agree with the current ranking. He's too slow and doesn't have the coverage to absolutely dominate the game, as well as being really bad against Skuntank, but he can power over most neutral pokemon with either Razor Leaf or Bite and those he can't normally can't do enough damage to stop him from boosting up on.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Very much a glass cannon. Frustration, especially at the start, was like a hammer but the fact that your best STAB drops off as things get bulkier is not a good combo on its own. Throw in the fact that if they survive and strike back you are going to be crippled? She's powerful enough that they normally don't, but that definitely fits the B-Tier definition IMO.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Not a powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination, especially since you don't get STAB until after Fantina, but between self healing to save on items, decent typing and good bulk for when you get it Dustox, as its own thing, is good early on. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, it's got some noticeable flaws such as not doing much damage if it can't hit super effectively and being very rare as the Dustox you want to catch it as, but when you catch it it's ready to contribute immediately. Kind of a borderline one to be honest but since C specifically mentions needing support to reach their potential and all it needs is a TM that nothing else wants I'm placing it here for now, it will probably drop off hard after Veilstone.

D-Tier
These Pokémon are decent. They'll have significant flaws but will get you to the endgame provided with the proper support.

Basically the exact opposite of Buneary. Unless you give it Earthquake, which quite a few pokemon want, it is not going to hit very hard at all, but it never, ever goes down unless the opponent has a type advantage and even then weaker pokemon can often be shrugged off. The main problem is that if you don't give it Earthquake you pretty much have to wait until Byron for a powerful attack. Useful in certain situations but even Dustox probably does more damage overall as more things are weak to its moves then Fighting/Ground/Rock or Steel.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

It's not the bulkiest, the coverage is poor and its only stab for 9 levels is resisted by grass types such as the very common Roselia. It's powerful enough that it doesn't need the extra coverage that badly most of the time, but when up against something that it does it will normally do really badly, as even off its Sp. Attack non-STAB, pre-buff Uproar is not enough for a Rock type. I imagine it will step up once I get Ominous Wind. Now if only they didn't have the "brilliant" idea of locking Rotoms gimmick away behind an event in Platinum.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Does he have a way to hit Rock/Steel types? No. Does he have a way to hit Ghosts? Also no. Everything else gets battered by Adaptability Secret Power, even resists like Bronzor getting overpowered. He's quite frail and doesn't have a way to power over his problems like Buneary has, so this is a low B to her high, but there's a reason he's the highest leveled pokemon on my team despite being the lowest when I got him.

Yes I know the top said Veilstone but I'm in Hearthome. I'm titling these based off of where I am in the story.
Nice. Just a question tho...

Any special reason for you to have caught a Klutz Buneary? :smogthink:
 
Back on it again because why not.

Now before I can actually get to Veilstone and start doing its story progression I have to make my way back there from Hearthome, so I think this is a good time to say that from here to Veilstone Gym I will be leaning heavily on Eevee, Buneary and Probopass to make up for the XP they won't be getting in the gym. Also I taught Dustox Toxic as I pretty much only gave it Thief because nothing else wanted it and it could be useful against Fantina, who's done.

After just a single battle on the way to Veilstone against the rancher who has like 5 Bidoof in DP, I pick up 2 TMs in the department store : Thunder to give Rotom a semi-reliable power hit and Blizzard so Glaceon can have STAB as soon as it evolves and then it's time for the gym. I fight what I think is the only mandatory trainer in the gym and one other as I smash the tire piles and then I'm on Maylene. She's kinda... shit. Grotle overpowers Meditite after 1 Curse, doing like 70% with Razor Leaf. Rotom is immune to everything Lucario has except for the resisted Metal Claw, which is a 3HKO even if the first gets a boost and confused it before dropping Thunder on its head, though I'm not sure if he could have won itemless like he did if Lucario hadn't hit itself and the same goes for Machoke except Rock Tomb is neutral instead. A bad call v Machoke means Dustox didn't actually do anything, getting 1 hit by Rock Tomb after I forgot that's its only move that can damage Rotom. Rather easy despite the level difference tbh. Time for the Galactic fight. It's ridiculously easy, Zubat not managing to 2HKO with super effective, STAB Wing Attack before one of them gets ganged up on and knocked out, then the followup Croagunk gets 1 hit before Dustox goes down. Probo Earthquake 2HKO's the Stunky after, and I'm going to be using him a lot on my way to Pastoria because he's not going to be much use in a Water gym. Rival 3 outside Pastoria gym was easy, Probo put the hurt on Staravia until he switched only to get 1 hit by crit Mach Punch, Rotom proceded to do like 80% with Thunder, paralyzing him in the process so Shock Wave went first and killed. Buneary was able to 2HKO Roselia and Rotom cleaned up Staravia, onto the gym. It... didn't go well. The gym trainers, for the first time so far, were actually a challenge, and while Gyarados went down rather easily once I finally got to Wake Floatzel fucking murdered me, because that's what pokemon 10 levels higher than you do. Time to take on the trainers to the west.

The further I get in this game the more convinved I am that you are meant to grind. There is no way, even if I fought everyone, that I would be 37 unless I was doing, like, a 2 pokemon run. Still not going to except maybe to catch up whoever I had to sideline for Mt. Coronet. Anyway, v Wake, take 2.

Success! My original plan of cursing to +2 on Gyarados and using that boost to take on Floatzel was kind of thrown out the window after a crit 1HKO'd Grotle, so I was forced to try Plan B : Dustox uses Toxic and I stall him out while occasionally chipping away with Quick Attacks and Probopass' Shock Wave. It worked despite both a Sitrus Berry and a Hyper Potion, leaving only his Quagsire which fell to Razor Leaf from a revived Grotle, which was enough to push him to level 32 and evolution. Torterra Acquired. Once I leave my rival gives the warning about Galactic in the marsh, the dumbass grunt wears himself out running rather than fighting and Looker is Looker completely missing the bad guy. After beating the grunt, who disappears into the marsh, Cynthia gives us the potion to clear the Psyduck and once we do she asks us to deliver a charm to her grrandmother, which begs the question of why can't she do that herself?

Anyway, I make my way north to Celestic Town, struggling hard at some points as the trainers are ending up around the same level as my ace now. I really think you're meant to be higher level'd here. Ah well, just going to have to make do. On my way there I pick up Shadow Ball, which leaves me with an interesting dilemma : Do I give it to Rotom, who has a ghost move already in Ominous Wind, or do I save it for Glaceon so it can do work v Lucian? After Careful delibration, and a handful of battles where Ominous Wind was more than enough, I decided on the latter.

Once in Celestic Town I got all three items from the glasses guy before challenging Cyrus and if there was any doubt in my mind about the levels it's gone. He smacked me 3-0 despite me having 6 pokemon. No team picture because there has literally been 6 changes : Grotle is now Torterra and has Leech Seed/Earthquake instead of Bite/Grass Knot, Dustox has Toxic instead of Thief, Probo has Shock Wave instead of Thunder Wave and Eevee has Dig instead of Growl.

Ratings so far :

A

Still a really solid all rounder that hits like a truck now he has 100 power STAB.

B

Has dropped off in damage a lot, I'm hoping she evolves soon but 3 KO's make that unlikely.

B

Still doesn't do much damage, can still throw a spanner in the works by surviving a neutral hit to fire off a toxic. Really wishes its STAB had more PP.

D

Can hit decently hard if it has the advantage. Advantage is very rare. Low level is making its bulk les impressive.

A

Thunder hit like a hammer before Choice Specs. Ominous Wind is more than enough given you're mainly using it on electric immunes and ghost weaks.

C

Has dropped off massively on damage, does not have the bulk to compensate. Closer to D than B right now.

Hate ending up massively underleveled like this but grinding just isn't efficient. Will clean this up + expand on current ratings later, it's half past too fucking late right now.
 
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Hate ending up massively underleveled like this but grinding just isn't efficient.
So is getting bodied because you're 10 levels under a Leader's ace.

Some times, as inefficient as it is, you gotta do what you gotta do. Closing the gap to like, 3 levels below once you're completely out of trainers is alright in my book.
Sinnoh does have a steep level curve after all. :mehowth:
 
...I was avoiding grinding because you didn't fight wild pokemon. In hindsight that probably wasn't the wisest idea given how I'm not fighting everyone.
My personal opinion is that it's better to fight everyone because this guarantees the Nat. Dex unlock at the end of the game (which means you unlock most of the post-game), so people that do casual runs might keep that in mind.

The Sinnoh games are unique in the sense that beating all trainers also carry an efficiency factor.
Of course, this is not mandatory, just something to consider in cases when one ends up underleveled. The level curve definitely is planned around it and keeping you reasonably underleveled, which is why it can be so steep at times.

But honestly, if we're strictly talking about catch up purposes, it makes zero difference.
Trainers > Wilds in terms of efficiency, but like I said, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
 
I've been planning on replaying Pearl, are there any Pokemon that need testing? Gonna run Turtwig and Misdreavus regardless bc I haven't used them in ages, but I'd like to help out if possible
Probably Glameow if it's not too much of a bother because it's Pearl-exclusive.

While I'm here, sorry for not posting too much, I've been utterly swamped with work. Gonna drop a log this week.
 

Albatross

Loosely Resembling Some Variety Of Bird
is a Top Artistis a Community Contributor
Alrighty then, here's my run of Pokemon Pearl with Turtwig, Zubat, Misdreavus and Glameow. I originally planned to go further into the game today but I'm a little burnt out right now, so here's everything up to Gardenia. I'll be ordering my logs in order of how well each Pokemon does, from best to worse:

I start off strong by forgetting to save before entering the Lake - forgot the game forces you into picking a starter immediately after you enter, so if I got a bad Turtwig then I'd have to go through the entire introduction again. Luckily though I get something of acceptable quality - Curse can patch up the shoddy defence and since it drops speed I don't really care about the lacklustre speed IVs. Brave is also good for Turtwig. I'm only really concerned with Turt's 0-9 in special defence, but since I'm not the only one running Turtwig right now I think this is a passable spread.

Named my Turtwig Turnip and set off. Then I blacked out at the second trainer thanks to a wonderful combination of Growl spamming + Tackle's 95% accuracy. Beautiful. It's worth mentioning that at this point Turtwig's tackle is a (mostly) 3HKO on most trainers, but it takes barely any damage from anything in return. So the battles are pretty slow, even slower if you get really unlucky and get the 5% miss on Tackle.

Anyways, I reach Hearthome and go straight to Route 204 to catch a Zubat. The first one I catch is actually pretty good, my only complaint is a neutral nature, but I'd gladly take that over a -speed or -attack one. Zubat is bad though. Doesn't even come with Supersonic, which sucks, but everyone knows Zubat's bad at the start so I'm not gonna talk about it too much. I will say, though, that you can cheese a few fights with confusion + Astonish flinches once you get it, and you'll probably be outspeeding everything at or around your level, but I digress.

Turtwig gets really good when it learns Razor Leaf. A lot of those annoying 3HKO enemies turn into clean OHKOs, though that might be thanks to mine's good attack and Brave. Either way, I do a lot of switch training with Zubat. It's worth mentioning that I'm fighting a lot of the trainers and ignoring most of the wilds. In hindsight I shouldn't have been afraid to grind a little of wilds, so I'll start doing that.

Special shoutout to Worker Mason, with his lvl 9 Machop that got a defence drop on every Rock Smash he hit, almost wiping my entire team. That was a fun experience.

You can probably guess how this is gonna go.
Turtwig, level 13/14​

First run, set up a Withdraw, swept through Geodude, Onix and Cranidos with Razor Leaf and Absorb. Turtwig levels up after Geodude, and levels up again after Cranidos.

Ran this two more times without Withdraw. Razor leaf doesn't OHKO Onix 100% of the time, but if it lives then Roark wastes his potion on it and you can KO with absorb to heal back any damage, so I'd count that as a positive tbh. Not that it matters, since you OHKO Cranidos with Razor Leaf most of the time and survive a headbutt at 5 HP from -1 defence.

As long as you don't get overly Leered or crit this should be an easy victory. Taking damage from the Onix and forgetting to Absorb it back also makes the fight worse, but that's easy to avoid if you're not looking away from the screen to take notes like I was. Razor Leaf makes this fight an absolute breeze. Great matchup.

Zubat, level 10​

Geodude KOs with rock throw. There's nothing you can do against it except Supersonic and pray for confusion. Second run, through a series of astonish flinches and confusion hits Zubat managed to get Geodude down to potion range, but Zubat still got absolutely bodied when rock throw finally connected. Probably should've grinded more for Bite - at the time I thought grinding wasn't allowed (misread the rules, my bad) - but I can't see Bite making much of a difference overall. Terrible matchup.

There's not much going on in between Roark and Mars, asides from a grinding session between tests to get Zubat up to level 17, so no pre-fight commentary here

Turtwig level 17​

Had to grind a little for lvl 17, but I tried this with Withdraw and it's beyond painful. Took me a good few tries at lvl 16, but grinding for Curse is well worth it.

Ran through two times, using curse twice on Zubat, then once. Got really unlucky the second time with first turn Toxic (I don't have a Pecha Berry, unfortunately) and multiple Bite flinches, but otherwise you can just Curse once, heal off Toxic just before knocking out the Zubat and win. Purugly surprisingly does nothing to you, unless it crits. Without Curse you're gonna have to use a few potions, but with Curse this battle is a breeze. Good match up, as long as you have Curse.

Zubat, level 17​

Went in originally at lvl 13, before going back to grind for Wing Attack. Wing Attack allows it to 1v1 the Zubat (it's a 2HKO), which it couldn't before. I've found it's best to Supersonic Purugly and hope for confusion; Zubat doesn't outspeed and Purugly deals a lot of damage. Strangely enough, Purugly never tried to use Fake Out. That worked in my favour though, because Fake Out does a lot of damage, even if Inner Focus means Zubat doesn't flinch.

Had to use three potions, but with confusion luck & landing both Supersonics Zubat managed to win. Considering I had to grind for a while & I used potions (would've just used a Super Potion instead of three regular but I forgot they were unlocked after first badge), I'm gonna call this a bad match up.

Caught two Misdreavus. The first was absolute garbage, and the second is just about passable. Man does it's movepool suck though. Yeah, I forgot to pick up Hidden Power from the Trainer School, but I have no way of accurately seeing what its Hidden power is, and knowing my luck it'd probably be something garbage anyways. I'll probably do a little backtracking to pick up the tms I missed, so I'll likely pick it up then. The notes I took while going through Eterna Forest sum up my general feelings towards Misdreavus so far:

"No decent attacking move until lvl 23 with Psybeam. It comes equipped with Astonish and Psywave as it's attacking moves, which is dreadful, but I think I might be able to PP stall Gardenia with Spite if it comes to it. But man, trying to level up with this thing is awful."
I like to write my notes pretty detailed - a lot of this has been copy and pasted straight from my notes with minor editing

It's also worth mentioning that, since it got Wing Attack, Zubat has really started pulling it's weight. It soloed Eterna Gym's trainers all by itself - pretty impressive considering it was relying on confusion & flinches a few levels ago.

Would like to mention that, after testing Zubat, I started to feel pretty burnt out, so I decided not to go back and grind up Grotle and Misdreavus. There's nothing they could've learnt that would make this fight easier - maybe Bite on Grotle would've made a difference, but it's too late for that now.

Zubat, level 20

First run through I went on autopilot because I was talking to a friend, and Zubat won through spamming Wing Attack. That's how free this fight is. Just click Wing Attack, as long as you're not unlucky with Roserade's paralysis you'll be fine, and even then Roserade straight up cannot touch you.

The only annoying part of the fight is Turtwig, since it can set up Reflect, but that does nothing except make the fight last a little longer. The real winner here is Zubat's Poison/Flying typing completely invalidating anything Gardenia can throw at you. Excellent match up.

Misdreavus, level 18

First run through, I alternate between Confuse Ray and Psywave. Cherubi goes down without too much hassle, Grass Knot does absolutely nothing and it hits itself in confusion quite a lot. Plus I rolled high with Psywave, which is always nice. Turtwig also goes down easily - this is actually going a lot smoother than I originally thought it would. Roserade paralyses me, but it also doesn't do a lot of damage with any of it's moves, and I kill it with Psywave.

Tried again with Astonish, since last run I only used Psywave. Cherubi getting Safeguard up is annoying, since it protects it from Confuse Ray, and this time it actually gets Misdreavus into the red, but another Astonish takes it out. Cherubi took 9 Astonishes to KO. Safeguard protects Turtwig from confusion, so I waste a turn trying it because I forgot it was still active. By this point I'm honestly sick of Gardenia, so I reset over that run. Misdreavus only got one test, but I don't think there's anything different I could've done besides get lucky.

Anyways, confuse ray is busted. It's so busted. Confusion, Psywave and Astonish flinching turn this - and every one of Misdreavus' fights so far - into pure RNG. Misdreavus should not have won that first run by any stretch of the imagination, but I got incredibly luck with no Safeguard & good Psywaves. I don't think levelling it up would change its match up, especially since all it gets under lvl 22 is Mean Look. Gonna have to wait for Psybeam for it to start being consistently useful, unfortunately. I'm inclined to call this a Bad match up, since it is technically winnable, but you're basically forced to use Psywave and Confusion.

It might be worth overlevelling for Psybeam, but I'm trying to keep under the ace's level, and the idea of doing more grinding with Misdreavus makes my physically ill.

Grotle, level 19

First run through, set up two Curses and 3HKO's the Cherubi - it lives with a sliver of health thanks to a low roll. Grass Knot does a surprising amount, though Cherubi does like to use Growth a lot, and Roserade killed with Poison Sting. Second try, goes about the same.

On the third go I try using Razor Leaf on Cherubi and it actually does more than Tackle in spite of it resisting it. Then Gardenia switched into Roserade, ate a +2 Tackle (I misclicked, but Tackle does a lot more than RL anyways) and spammed Grass Knot until Grotle died.

Eventually I decide to use a Super Potion. Cherubi goes very well, and I land a crit Tackle against Roserade. Great. Then Gardenia uses her Super Potion and Roserade crits & kills Grotle. Not so great.

Maybe I'm struggling because of Grotle's wonderful 0-9 IV in SpDef, or maybe it's because Grotle's slightly low levelled, but damn this is horrible. This fight might need another look with a Grotle that has better IVs or Bite, but at this point I'm tired and I want to finish testing for today, so I'm calling this a Terrible match up and calling it a night.

Now that I'm thinking about it, this is the exact opposite result of the Roark battle, with Grotle now being dead weight at best and Zubat sweeping effortlessly. That's kinda neat I guess.

- Turtwig's pretty slow to use until it gets Razor Leaf. From there it cleans up routes pretty easily. You'll likely want Curse for Mars in order to have a consistent win rate against her, and it can't do much against Gardenia, but that's probably because I was underlevelled + no Bite. So far it's pretty decent but I expect that its poor defence and special defence IVs are gonna hinder it a lot. Maybe the +attack and decent attack Iv will counterbalance that though
- Zubat started off awful, as expected, but quickly became decent when it got Wing Attack. You can cheese a lot of fights between Astonish flinches + confusion if Supersonic hits, but there's not much else to say. Looking forward to using it now that it's actually helpful
- Misdreavus is bad. It's just early game Zubat with more RNG. Hopefully it'll pick up when it gets Psybeam and I won't have to resort to PP stalling with Spite. Also, Psywave's damage output is dependent on the user's level alongside pure RNG according to Bulbapedia, which I wasn't aware of until I started writing these logs, so me being underlevelled might've impacted the Gardenia fight more than anticipated, but it's still annoying to use. It learns Shadow Ball at level 37, so while I'll probably just give it the tm for it when I get it, it's nice to know that you don't have to waste that particular tm on it if you don't mind wait.
- Updates might be slower now because it's not the weekend. I'll try and do a major boss battle every other day, since doing Mars & Gardenia in the same session really burnt me out

note: the stats listed are from the level it was acquired. These are ripped straight from my notes as well, which is why semi-colons and colons are used interchangeably

Turtwig;
Ability: Overgrow
Nature; Brave
IVs:
HP; 21 - 10-29
Att; 13 - 4-23
Def; 11 - 0-11
SpAtt; 10 - 10-29
SpDef; 10 - 0-9
Spe; 7 - 0-17

Zubat:
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature; Hardy
IVs:
HP; 18 - 20-31
Att; 9 - 10-31
Def; 8 - 5-29
SpAtt; 8 - 15-31
SpDef; 9 - 20-31
Spd; 10 - 15-31

Misdreavus:
Ability: Levitate
Nature; Mild
IVs:
HP; 33 - 17-25
Att; 20 - 17-25
Def; 16 - 0-7
SpAtt; 27 - 12-20
SpDef; 24 - 3-11
Spe; 24 - 3-11
 
Alrighty then, here's my run of Pokemon Pearl with Turtwig, Zubat, Misdreavus and Glameow. I originally planned to go further into the game today but I'm a little burnt out right now, so here's everything up to Gardenia. I'll be ordering my logs in order of how well each Pokemon does, from best to worse:

I start off strong by forgetting to save before entering the Lake - forgot the game forces you into picking a starter immediately after you enter, so if I got a bad Turtwig then I'd have to go through the entire introduction again. Luckily though I get something of acceptable quality - Curse can patch up the shoddy defence and since it drops speed I don't really care about the lacklustre speed IVs. Brave is also good for Turtwig. I'm only really concerned with Turt's 0-9 in special defence, but since I'm not the only one running Turtwig right now I think this is a passable spread.

Named my Turtwig Turnip and set off. Then I blacked out at the second trainer thanks to a wonderful combination of Growl spamming + Tackle's 95% accuracy. Beautiful. It's worth mentioning that at this point Turtwig's tackle is a (mostly) 3HKO on most trainers, but it takes barely any damage from anything in return. So the battles are pretty slow, even slower if you get really unlucky and get the 5% miss on Tackle.

Anyways, I reach Hearthome and go straight to Route 204 to catch a Zubat. The first one I catch is actually pretty good, my only complaint is a neutral nature, but I'd gladly take that over a -speed or -attack one. Zubat is bad though. Doesn't even come with Supersonic, which sucks, but everyone knows Zubat's bad at the start so I'm not gonna talk about it too much. I will say, though, that you can cheese a few fights with confusion + Astonish flinches once you get it, and you'll probably be outspeeding everything at or around your level, but I digress.

Turtwig gets really good when it learns Razor Leaf. A lot of those annoying 3HKO enemies turn into clean OHKOs, though that might be thanks to mine's good attack and Brave. Either way, I do a lot of switch training with Zubat. It's worth mentioning that I'm fighting a lot of the trainers and ignoring most of the wilds. In hindsight I shouldn't have been afraid to grind a little of wilds, so I'll start doing that.

Special shoutout to Worker Mason, with his lvl 9 Machop that got a defence drop on every Rock Smash he hit, almost wiping my entire team. That was a fun experience.

You can probably guess how this is gonna go.
Turtwig, level 13/14​

First run, set up a Withdraw, swept through Geodude, Onix and Cranidos with Razor Leaf and Absorb. Turtwig levels up after Geodude, and levels up again after Cranidos.

Ran this two more times without Withdraw. Razor leaf doesn't OHKO Onix 100% of the time, but if it lives then Roark wastes his potion on it and you can KO with absorb to heal back any damage, so I'd count that as a positive tbh. Not that it matters, since you OHKO Cranidos with Razor Leaf most of the time and survive a headbutt at 5 HP from -1 defence.

As long as you don't get overly Leered or crit this should be an easy victory. Taking damage from the Onix and forgetting to Absorb it back also makes the fight worse, but that's easy to avoid if you're not looking away from the screen to take notes like I was. Razor Leaf makes this fight an absolute breeze. Great matchup.

Zubat, level 10​

Geodude KOs with rock throw. There's nothing you can do against it except Supersonic and pray for confusion. Second run, through a series of astonish flinches and confusion hits Zubat managed to get Geodude down to potion range, but Zubat still got absolutely bodied when rock throw finally connected. Probably should've grinded more for Bite - at the time I thought grinding wasn't allowed (misread the rules, my bad) - but I can't see Bite making much of a difference overall. Terrible matchup.

There's not much going on in between Roark and Mars, asides from a grinding session between tests to get Zubat up to level 17, so no pre-fight commentary here

Turtwig level 17​

Had to grind a little for lvl 17, but I tried this with Withdraw and it's beyond painful. Took me a good few tries at lvl 16, but grinding for Curse is well worth it.

Ran through two times, using curse twice on Zubat, then once. Got really unlucky the second time with first turn Toxic (I don't have a Pecha Berry, unfortunately) and multiple Bite flinches, but otherwise you can just Curse once, heal off Toxic just before knocking out the Zubat and win. Purugly surprisingly does nothing to you, unless it crits. Without Curse you're gonna have to use a few potions, but with Curse this battle is a breeze. Good match up, as long as you have Curse.

Zubat, level 17​

Went in originally at lvl 13, before going back to grind for Wing Attack. Wing Attack allows it to 1v1 the Zubat (it's a 2HKO), which it couldn't before. I've found it's best to Supersonic Purugly and hope for confusion; Zubat doesn't outspeed and Purugly deals a lot of damage. Strangely enough, Purugly never tried to use Fake Out. That worked in my favour though, because Fake Out does a lot of damage, even if Inner Focus means Zubat doesn't flinch.

Had to use three potions, but with confusion luck & landing both Supersonics Zubat managed to win. Considering I had to grind for a while & I used potions (would've just used a Super Potion instead of three regular but I forgot they were unlocked after first badge), I'm gonna call this a bad match up.

Caught two Misdreavus. The first was absolute garbage, and the second is just about passable. Man does it's movepool suck though. Yeah, I forgot to pick up Hidden Power from the Trainer School, but I have no way of accurately seeing what its Hidden power is, and knowing my luck it'd probably be something garbage anyways. I'll probably do a little backtracking to pick up the tms I missed, so I'll likely pick it up then. The notes I took while going through Eterna Forest sum up my general feelings towards Misdreavus so far:

"No decent attacking move until lvl 23 with Psybeam. It comes equipped with Astonish and Psywave as it's attacking moves, which is dreadful, but I think I might be able to PP stall Gardenia with Spite if it comes to it. But man, trying to level up with this thing is awful."
I like to write my notes pretty detailed - a lot of this has been copy and pasted straight from my notes with minor editing

It's also worth mentioning that, since it got Wing Attack, Zubat has really started pulling it's weight. It soloed Eterna Gym's trainers all by itself - pretty impressive considering it was relying on confusion & flinches a few levels ago.

Would like to mention that, after testing Zubat, I started to feel pretty burnt out, so I decided not to go back and grind up Grotle and Misdreavus. There's nothing they could've learnt that would make this fight easier - maybe Bite on Grotle would've made a difference, but it's too late for that now.

Zubat, level 20

First run through I went on autopilot because I was talking to a friend, and Zubat won through spamming Wing Attack. That's how free this fight is. Just click Wing Attack, as long as you're not unlucky with Roserade's paralysis you'll be fine, and even then Roserade straight up cannot touch you.

The only annoying part of the fight is Turtwig, since it can set up Reflect, but that does nothing except make the fight last a little longer. The real winner here is Zubat's Poison/Flying typing completely invalidating anything Gardenia can throw at you. Excellent match up.

Misdreavus, level 18

First run through, I alternate between Confuse Ray and Psywave. Cherubi goes down without too much hassle, Grass Knot does absolutely nothing and it hits itself in confusion quite a lot. Plus I rolled high with Psywave, which is always nice. Turtwig also goes down easily - this is actually going a lot smoother than I originally thought it would. Roserade paralyses me, but it also doesn't do a lot of damage with any of it's moves, and I kill it with Psywave.

Tried again with Astonish, since last run I only used Psywave. Cherubi getting Safeguard up is annoying, since it protects it from Confuse Ray, and this time it actually gets Misdreavus into the red, but another Astonish takes it out. Cherubi took 9 Astonishes to KO. Safeguard protects Turtwig from confusion, so I waste a turn trying it because I forgot it was still active. By this point I'm honestly sick of Gardenia, so I reset over that run. Misdreavus only got one test, but I don't think there's anything different I could've done besides get lucky.

Anyways, confuse ray is busted. It's so busted. Confusion, Psywave and Astonish flinching turn this - and every one of Misdreavus' fights so far - into pure RNG. Misdreavus should not have won that first run by any stretch of the imagination, but I got incredibly luck with no Safeguard & good Psywaves. I don't think levelling it up would change its match up, especially since all it gets under lvl 22 is Mean Look. Gonna have to wait for Psybeam for it to start being consistently useful, unfortunately. I'm inclined to call this a Bad match up, since it is technically winnable, but you're basically forced to use Psywave and Confusion.

It might be worth overlevelling for Psybeam, but I'm trying to keep under the ace's level, and the idea of doing more grinding with Misdreavus makes my physically ill.

Grotle, level 19

First run through, set up two Curses and 3HKO's the Cherubi - it lives with a sliver of health thanks to a low roll. Grass Knot does a surprising amount, though Cherubi does like to use Growth a lot, and Roserade killed with Poison Sting. Second try, goes about the same.

On the third go I try using Razor Leaf on Cherubi and it actually does more than Tackle in spite of it resisting it. Then Gardenia switched into Roserade, ate a +2 Tackle (I misclicked, but Tackle does a lot more than RL anyways) and spammed Grass Knot until Grotle died.

Eventually I decide to use a Super Potion. Cherubi goes very well, and I land a crit Tackle against Roserade. Great. Then Gardenia uses her Super Potion and Roserade crits & kills Grotle. Not so great.

Maybe I'm struggling because of Grotle's wonderful 0-9 IV in SpDef, or maybe it's because Grotle's slightly low levelled, but damn this is horrible. This fight might need another look with a Grotle that has better IVs or Bite, but at this point I'm tired and I want to finish testing for today, so I'm calling this a Terrible match up and calling it a night.

Now that I'm thinking about it, this is the exact opposite result of the Roark battle, with Grotle now being dead weight at best and Zubat sweeping effortlessly. That's kinda neat I guess.

- Turtwig's pretty slow to use until it gets Razor Leaf. From there it cleans up routes pretty easily. You'll likely want Curse for Mars in order to have a consistent win rate against her, and it can't do much against Gardenia, but that's probably because I was underlevelled + no Bite. So far it's pretty decent but I expect that its poor defence and special defence IVs are gonna hinder it a lot. Maybe the +attack and decent attack Iv will counterbalance that though
- Zubat started off awful, as expected, but quickly became decent when it got Wing Attack. You can cheese a lot of fights between Astonish flinches + confusion if Supersonic hits, but there's not much else to say. Looking forward to using it now that it's actually helpful
- Misdreavus is bad. It's just early game Zubat with more RNG. Hopefully it'll pick up when it gets Psybeam and I won't have to resort to PP stalling with Spite. Also, Psywave's damage output is dependent on the user's level alongside pure RNG according to Bulbapedia, which I wasn't aware of until I started writing these logs, so me being underlevelled might've impacted the Gardenia fight more than anticipated, but it's still annoying to use. It learns Shadow Ball at level 37, so while I'll probably just give it the tm for it when I get it, it's nice to know that you don't have to waste that particular tm on it if you don't mind wait.
- Updates might be slower now because it's not the weekend. I'll try and do a major boss battle every other day, since doing Mars & Gardenia in the same session really burnt me out

note: the stats listed are from the level it was acquired. These are ripped straight from my notes as well, which is why semi-colons and colons are used interchangeably

Turtwig;
Ability: Overgrow
Nature; Brave
IVs:
HP; 21 - 10-29
Att; 13 - 4-23
Def; 11 - 0-11
SpAtt; 10 - 10-29
SpDef; 10 - 0-9
Spe; 7 - 0-17

Zubat:
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature; Hardy
IVs:
HP; 18 - 20-31
Att; 9 - 10-31
Def; 8 - 5-29
SpAtt; 8 - 15-31
SpDef; 9 - 20-31
Spd; 10 - 15-31

Misdreavus:
Ability: Levitate
Nature; Mild
IVs:
HP; 33 - 17-25
Att; 20 - 17-25
Def; 16 - 0-7
SpAtt; 27 - 12-20
SpDef; 24 - 3-11
Spe; 24 - 3-11
Pretty similar experiences to mine so far tbh.

My Turtwig is Naive, so Grass Knot really does a chunk against it anyway. Roserade also hits pretty hard and that makes it even worse.

Honestly, you'd be better off trying to set up Curse vs her Turtwig since she actually switches it out when the matchup goes nowhere. That kinda allows you to try and hit Roserade harder, but it's still not a great matchup unless you can KO it first and odds are you won't be able to because of speed issues.

Early Misdreavus really is RNG hell. Did you know that Psywave only has 80% Accuracy on top of its full RNG damage calculation?
 

Albatross

Loosely Resembling Some Variety Of Bird
is a Top Artistis a Community Contributor
Pretty similar experiences to mine so far tbh.

My Turtwig is Naive, so Grass Knot really does a chunk against it anyway. Roserade also hits pretty hard and that makes it even worse.

Honestly, you'd be better off trying to set up Curse vs her Turtwig since she actually switches it out when the matchup goes nowhere. That kinda allows you to try and hit Roserade harder, but it's still not a great matchup unless you can KO it first and odds are you won't be able to because of speed issues.

Early Misdreavus really is RNG hell. Did you know that Psywave only has 80% Accuracy on top of its full RNG damage calculation?
Yeah she switches out with Cherubi as well, which surprised me. Didn't realise they could do that in the early gens. I don't know about setting up against the Turtwig though because of Reflect + Withdraw and it still has Grass Knot. I'd try and set up more curses but Roserade would probably just come in and since Grotle's so heavy (97 kg, so Grass Knot is an 80BP move) it would demolish it. Maybe if I confused the Turt with Zubat, but that's more RNG and I still don't think it would work because of the aforementioned Grass Knot, plus Roserade using Stun Spore and Tackle's 95% accuracy (I think it missed twice with it during one of my runs vs Roserade)

Got the list of available TMs open, apparently Taunt is available via Rock Smash in route 211? I genuinely did not know this. Too bad Grotle can't learn it though. I might teach it to Misdreavus though, since that'll give it something useful to do other than Confuse Ray and die

And I actually did not - I normally grind while I draw/talk on Discord/etc, so I guess I must've missed that. Unless Psywave's been hitting more than Tackle, which would be just my luck

I'm on Jupiter rn, she doesn't have a mini speech before the battle which is nice, but what isn't nice is the garbage match ups my entire team has against her. Even Grotle gets the short end of the stick with crit Night Slash - that absolutely murdered it first run through. Can't even level up a little because her Skuntank is level 20 in Pearl. I'll have to go back and pick up those tms I missed
 
Yeah she switches out with Cherubi as well, which surprised me. Didn't realise they could do that in the early gens. I don't know about setting up against the Turtwig though because of Reflect + Withdraw and it still has Grass Knot. I'd try and set up more curses but Roserade would probably just come in and since Grotle's so heavy (97 kg, so Grass Knot is an 80BP move) it would demolish it. Maybe if I confused the Turt with Zubat, but that's more RNG and I still don't think it would work because of the aforementioned Grass Knot, plus Roserade using Stun Spore and Tackle's 95% accuracy (I think it missed twice with it during one of my runs vs Roserade)

Got the list of available TMs open, apparently Taunt is available via Rock Smash in route 211? I genuinely did not know this. Too bad Grotle can't learn it though. I might teach it to Misdreavus though, since that'll give it something useful to do other than Confuse Ray and die

And I actually did not - I normally grind while I draw/talk on Discord/etc, so I guess I must've missed that. Unless Psywave's been hitting more than Tackle, which would be just my luck

I'm on Jupiter rn, she doesn't have a mini speech before the battle which is nice, but what isn't nice is the garbage match ups my entire team has against her. Even Grotle gets the short end of the stick with crit Night Slash - that absolutely murdered it first run through. Can't even level up a little because her Skuntank is level 20 in Pearl. I'll have to go back and pick up those tms I missed
Jupiter might legit be the hardest battle in this game, and if she isn't, she's way up there.
 

Albatross

Loosely Resembling Some Variety Of Bird
is a Top Artistis a Community Contributor
Jupiter might legit be the hardest battle in this game, and if she isn't, she's way up there.
Huge agree, but you know what? I think I might've actually found a way to beat her semi-consistently with Grotle. Most tries with less than stellar luck will require a Super Potion, and you need 2-3 Curses up, but I ran it 4 times and won three of them - lost one thanks to a load of Zubat flinches + Zubat surviving +3 Tackle on a low roll + Night Slash crit, but 3/4 ain't bad

Also, should've asked before, but does it matter which order we take on Crasher Wake and Maylene? I was gonna go Maylene first since Zubat and Misdreavus have the type advantage, but I don't know if there's a set route
 
Jupiter is very annoying. Your lists of resists consists of Monferno, Machop, Murkrow (diamond only) and a bunch of really obscure steel types that you can technically have at this point, like Steelix, Wormadam, Shieldon and Probopass. Out of those, Machop is the only one that is consistently and easily available in all versions, if you take Monferno's opportunity cost into consideration. Intimidate mons or mons that boost defense aren't the most reliable either, because night slash has a high crit rate. Basically, Skuntank is near impossible to wall. Your best bet is probably abusing status moves, because there are very, very few Pokemon that can beat Skuntank 1 on 1.

Also, should've asked before, but does it matter which order we take on Crasher Wake and Maylene? I was gonna go Maylene first since Zubat and Misdreavus have the type advantage, but I don't know if there's a set route
It doesn't really matter what route you pick, as long as you are clear about it. I think most people do Maylene first since you will most likely visit Veilstone City before Pastoria City, but again, you can do whichever route works best for your run.
 
Those Steel types sound cool in theory, there’s just one problem: they can’t kill Skunktank fast enough I would wager.

If if you could kill them spamming Potions, like...I don’t think I would consider it a “good” matchup in the efficient sense.

My vote for hardest battles?

Fantina (Platinum, ranted about this plenty).
Wake (Platinum): If you don’t outright beat Gyarados with a fast Electric, you’re likely just getting destroyed by Waterfall. Even if you resist Waterfall, good luck killing the thing. Electrics also slugfest with Quagsire and Floatzel is generally annoying because of wide coverage and high level unless you literally hunt down every mook possible.

Either both admins or final Cyrus (both tie in relative difficulty). Admins I won’t go into, everyone knows they outclass you. Cyrus...I don’t even think there’s something in the game that sweeps him entirely. Maybe an Electric in DP? Even then, I can see Weavile or something revenging it.

Lucian is also a really stupid fight; few viable Dark types (that likely won’t shine outside of this fight, as I alluded to with Drapion) and screens are just...ew. Arguably on par with Wake at the least in difficulty.

Cynthia is just...mean. In my personal opinion I think she might need to be treated similar to Lance in that HGSS list - anything that flops against her shouldn’t be detracted too many viability points, but anything that excels at her (Gyarados, anything else that can setup on Spiritomb with a easily obtainable boosting move) should be heavily considered for a rise / rank increase. It’s not my list and ultimately Volt and Magnus’s decisions though.

Just my two cents. Sorry that this isn’t a run update yet (I’m about halfway through the game atm, stopped at Wake last).

Also Dry Skin Toxicroak hilariously laughs at Wake from my experience lol.
 

Albatross

Loosely Resembling Some Variety Of Bird
is a Top Artistis a Community Contributor
Did you know Bidoof can learn Shock Wave via TM? I didn't until yesterday. Anyways time to be controversial

Oh boy. This is gonna be a doozy

Grotle, level 20​
First runs went like a cold knife through even colder butter. Getting through the Zubat is, normally, not too bad since it doesn't do too much with Wing Attack after 2 Curses. Bite flinches are a huge pain in the ass though, and if it whittles you down too much then you'll have to heal for Skuntank. And even if you're at max health for Skuntank, it can still crit through that +2 defence, which sucks.

I was gonna leave it at that, but i decided to backtrack a little to grab some TMs I missed. Didn't know this until I was heading back to Eterna and decided to snoop around the Old Chateau, but it turns out you can get the TM for Substitute there. Neat. Taught Grotle Substitute, tried Jupiter again, things took a drastic turn for the better.

First run through with Substitute, I subbed first then set up Curse. That isn't optimal; Zubat broke the sub once with Wing Attack and I lost a lot of HP. Had to heal before KOing because even with +2 defence and a substitute up I was still terrified of a Skuntank Night Slash crit. But Skuntank kept using Smoke Screen on the sub, which does nothing, and I ended up using another Curse before KO'ing with Tackle. It did break the sub and land a Smoke Screen before I could set up another sub, but it was a fairly clean - but lucky - victory.

Second run was far worse, thanks to RNG. Zubat kept flinching with Bite, and Skuntank got the sub down and killed with crit Night Slash. Charming. But by now I had a strategy down; set up three Curses in front of Zubat, get the sub up, kill Zubat with a Tackle (it can actually survive a low roll, but nothing it can do can break the sub, minus a crit Wing Attack), win. You want the sub up for Skuntank no matter what, and Zubat damaging you during the three Curses can actually be beneficial. The third run I did was the absolute ideal for what you want to happen, so I'll walk you through it to explain how Grotle can actually sweep Skuntank with a little luck.

First turn, used Curse. Except Zubat flinched with Bite, so the first four turns were Cursing up and getting down to half health. Subbed up, Grotle's now down to about a quarter of its health. Tackle OHKO's Zubat. Now Skuntank's in, but goes down to two Razor Leaves thanks to Grotle taking enough to be in Overgrow. It went with Smoke Screen first turn, Night Slash second, but was KO'd before it could land a hit. Easy win.

So it's entirely possible to sweep Jupiter without healing, you just need her not to crit and pick Night Slash turn one. That may sound like a tall order, but on my final run she did actually break the sub turn one. I had to heal up, and she Screeched as I did, but Grotle survived a +1 Night Slash and killed with Razor Leaf. This wasn't ideal because you need Overgrow to 2HKO, but it was still winnable. If you get turn one Night Slash then you'll have to heal straight after or risk the crit, and if Zubat crits Wing Attack you'll probably need to heal as well, since you likely won't be able to get the sub up. There are a lot of little problems that add up to lose you the battle, but you need to get pretty unlucky to fail.

I'm calling this a Decent/Good match up so long as you have Sub. Needing to heal up for most runs isn't ideal, but considering who we're up against I think it can be forgiven. This will probably have to be tested more though, because Grotle's +attack nature definitely helped with getting the 2HKO on Skuntank and helped remove a lot of the RNG in doing so, but as previously stated even when it couldn't 2HKO with sub down it just had to heal up, sub up (optional, if you're scared of crits) and click Razor Leaf again.

Zubat, level 21​
Do I have to write anything here? We already know how this is going down; opposing Zubat goes down easy enough to Confuse ray + Bite, Skuntank comes out, almost kills with Night Slash and you just gotta hope it gets confused enough for Wing Attack to kill. I didn't win with Zubat and I'm not gonna sit for an hour trying

Misdreavus, level 20​
You need RNG to beat the Zubat, and you need lottery-winning luck to get past Skuntank. Misdreavus bad. Ok moving on

Huge shoutout to me for forgetting about the Barry fight in Hearthome. I'm a jackass, I know. I could only get one run, so after detailing the victory I'll do a little theorising. The following is all from my notes, which were taken live during the battle.

Notes said:
Misdreavus was up front, which I didn't want, so I switched to HM slave Bidoof then went into Grotle since I wanted to preserve Zubat for Monferno. Starly spammed Double Team, I went Curse/Substitute/Curse, but I managed to hit it through 4 Double Teams through sheer luck.

Monferno's out, and I decide to keep Grotle in because I'm at +2 Curse with Sub still up. Monferno starts off with Mach Punch which doesn't break the sub, I go with Bite and do a third of its health. Then Grotle gets Flame Wheeled, and sub goes down. I'm kinda nervous at this point because I don't know how well Grotle is gonna take a Flame Wheel, even with +2 defence, but it doesn't matter because Monferno goes for Mach Punch for some reason and I kill with Bite.

Next it's Roselia, and although I would've kept Grotle in for the clean sweep, I want all of my team to get a look in. So I switch Zubat in and Wing Attack until it dies. Nothing else to add other than Zubat continues to take nothing from Roselia.

Buizel's out now. Zubat Confuse Rays and switch into Misdreavus, but Buizel catches Zubat with a Pursuit. Crap, that's not good, Misdreavus has an awful defence, probably can’t take a Pursuit. Doesn't end up mattering though, because Buizel hits itself in confusion twice and dies to Psywave.
Unfortunately I didn't record the levels my team was at, but Zubat evolved into Golbat after the fight and I believe they were all around the same level as Barry's team.

Grotle​
If it wasn't for me wanting to see how Zubat and Misdreavus handled Barry's last mons, Grotle would've swept. Later on there's a mandatory lvl 23 Monferno that Flame Wheeled Grotle, and it survived on a sliver of health with +1 defence plus rain, so with the +2 I had I think I could've survived. Unless it crit, which would've been very unfortunate. Good match up in spite of Monferno, another win for substitute Grotle.

Zubat​
It's up in the air how it would've handled Starly, because of Confuse Ray vs Double Team. Monferno Flame Wheel likely would've killed, but Zubat can live a Mach Punch thanks to Flying/Poison and Wing Attacked in retaliation. Don't know if it could've outsped or not. Roselia is still an easy win, and I also don't think Buizel could've killed, but it would probably depend on how much damage Zubat took overall.

Misdreavus​
Would've been bad. Astonish for Monferno is nice, but I have severe doubts as to whether it could've gotten past Starly thanks to Double Team & Psywave's 80% accuracy. No Psybeam yet, so this is an L.

Golbat, Level 25/26
First run, Meditite is an easy win with Wing Attack and Confuse Ray, and so is Machoke. I am admittedly getting lucky with the Confusion hits though. Level up after the Machoke. Lucario’s out now, and we don’t outspeed, but Golbat can take Metal Claw thanks to its 47 in defence and Roost. Lucario gets down to red and Maylene’s wasted her potion, but I’m in range of a Metal Claw. Lucario, though, decides to go with Force Palm twice. Trying for the Paralysis chance, I guess? Either way Golbat wins.

Confusion hits go a long way here, especially with Machoke knowing both Rock Tomb and Leer. You can OHKO Meditite and 2HKO Machoke on a high roll Wing Attack, but Leer is a game over if you’re not using you hm slave as a sacrifice. The most RNG heavy part of this fight is 100% the Lucario, but you still do pretty hefty damage with neutral Wing Attack. I’ll call this a good matchup, but it’s tainted by the RNG in the Lucario section

Grotle, Level 26/27​

First turn Curse, Meditite uses Detect which is great. Grotle subs next turn then Curses again - Meditite Drain Punches and Detects in return. I decide to go up to +3 then work my way down over two more runs. Surprisingly enough Meditite’s Confusion doesn’t break the Sub, even though my Sp.Defence is piss poor at best. Machoke can’t Leer thanks to Sub, and Razor Leaf is a 2HKO. It breaks the Sub with a Brick Break - not ideal, I wanted that for Lucario. Level up after Machoke. Lucario Drain punches but I Sub and go for Razor Leaf, now in Overgrow range. Bone Rush hits twice and doesn’t break the Sub and Razor Leaf does enough to trigger the berry. Force Palm breaks the Sub but Metal Claw does nothing.

Anyways long story short Grotle wins at +3. I then try again at +2 and Meditite confuses with Confusion. Just my luck. I get under the Sub in the red but I hit myself in Confusion until I die. Wonderful. Second try and the same happens again. This is what I get for that incredible Golbat luck I suppose. Razor Leaf is still a 2HKO on Machoke, Lucario’s Force Palm doesn’t break the Sub with +2 defence but Bone Rush afterwards does. Force Palm paralyses, but Razor Leaf crits. Lucario’s Drain Punch also crits though, killing Grotle. Probably should've tried +3 again, but after two dead battles thanks to incredible bad luck I had enough of testing for today

Grotle takes Lucario’s hits fairly easy thanks to +3 defence, but can’t OHKO anything and doesn't do too much damage to Lucario unless Grotle’s in Overgrowth range, so I’m putting this under Golbat. Good matchup, I guess.

Misdreavus, Level 26/27​
I’ve been waiting for this for so, so long. Misdreavus is finally useful. Sort of. First run, Confuse Ray first, it outspeeds the Meditite and 3HKOs with Psybeam. Maylene wastes her Hyper Potion on it, and it gets a Meditate or two off, but kills itself with confusion. Sweet, Misdreavus levels up after that. Confuse Ray first once again and repeat. Machoke gets off a Foresight, which isn’t good though, because Lucario outspeeds and almost kills with Drain Punch. It then Metal Claws, and I reset.

I go through again, not changing anything besides Astonish for the Meditite - despite its sp.att being higher STAB Astonish is still better apparently - and even without Foresight Lucario still does a load of damage with Metal Claw. Unfortunately there’s no way Misdreavus is getting past Lucario without a lot of Confusion luck. Maybe Pain Split at 28 would help a little, but I want to keep my team slightly underlevelled so they don’t overshoot for Crasher Wake. Decent match up, since it can dispose of the other two without much thought.


Anyways I wrap up for the night after Grotle gets crit Drain Punched, and Golbat swoops in to pick up the free level. Sweet. It also evolves into Crobat, which was incredibly unexpected but a welcome sight. A great way to end the log


- Substitute is a game changer for Grotle. Its now winning fights it definitely wouldn't have without it, and Curse + Substitute have a lot of synergy thanks to Curse's defence increase. I'm sure there are a lot of mons that would appreciate Sub - off the top of my head; anything with Bulk Up/Calm Mind/Curse/etc, anything with reliable recovery, mons with high HP, etc, but Grotle really appreciates being able to hide behind Sub, either to Curse up or for extra security during sweeping. It probably isn't enough to push it into S-rank, but it's definitely a huge help.
- Golbat has been performing well outside of the Jupiter fight, it’s consistently able to OHKO or 2HKO enemies and Flying/Poison is a great defensive typing. Now that it’s evolved into Crobat and I’ve given it Fly I expect to see it skyrocket in terms of usefulness.
- Misdreavus finally has Psybeam and Shockwave, and its 59 in Sp.Att at level 27 is promising. Hopefully it’ll start picking up now, since it’s still got a while to wait before evolution. Looking forward to Level 37’s Shadow Ball
- I've been avoiding all the optional trainers I can in anticipation of Crasher Wake's gym. I plan to do a few runs with and without Intimidate fodder for Crobat and Grotle, to see how it effects the match up. I reckon Sub is gonna be important here again thanks to Floatzel's Ice Fang and avoiding status moves from all three mons, and I'm also gonna test giving the lead a Persim berry for Gyarados' Swagger, for the free attack boost.

Turtwig;
Ability: Overgrow
Nature; Brave
IVs:
HP; 21 - 10-29
Att; 13 - 4-23
Def; 11 - 0-11
SpAtt; 10 - 10-29
SpDef; 10 - 0-9
Spe; 7 - 0-17

Zubat:
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature; Hardy
IVs:
HP; 18 - 20-31
Att; 9 - 10-31
Def; 8 - 5-29
SpAtt; 8 - 15-31
SpDef; 9 - 20-31
Spd; 10 - 15-31

Misdreavus:
Ability: Levitate
Nature; Mild
IVs:
HP; 33 - 17-25
Att; 20 - 17-25
Def; 16 - 0-7
SpAtt; 27 - 12-20
SpDef; 24 - 3-11
Spe; 24 - 3-11
 
:turtwig:
I changed my mind. It's Torterra, Floatzel, Rampardos, and Espeon now.
Turtwig: It can usually solo by spamming razor leaf, unless Cranidos gets lucky with headbutt flinches.

Turtwig
Level: 16
- tackle
- withdraw
- absorb
- razor leaf
Grotle: It can easily set up 6 curses against Turtwig and then sweep.

Buizel: Its low defenses and grass weakness make it faint before it can do anything.

Cranidos: It performs similarly to Buizel.

Grotle @ Oran berry
Level: 23
- tackle
- curse
- bite
- razor leaf

Buizel @ Oran berry
Level: 20
- swift
- quick attack
- water gun
- pursuit

Cranidos @ Oran berry
Level: 20
- focus energy
- pursuit
- take down
- rock tomb
Grotle: Skuntank resists both razor leaf and bite. However, Grotle's +2 return can 3HKO Skuntank, while Skuntank can't 4HKO when Grotle has +2 physical defense.

Buizel: It easily wins the 1v1 against Zubat but is useless against Skuntank.

Cranidos: It performs similarly to Buizel.

Grotle @ Oran berry
Level: 24
- return
- curse
- bite
- razor leaf

Buizel @ Oran berry
Level: 21
- swift
- aqua jet
- water gun
- pursuit

Cranidos @ Oran berry
Level: 20
- focus energy
- pursuit
- take down
- rock tomb
I'm still not very sure what the fifth Pokemon should be. I prefer something that's obtainable after Eevee, like Gyarados, Gallade, Houndoom, or Weavile. Also should Torterra use curse, swords dance, or rock polish? Should Rampardos use swords dance or rock polish?
:grotle::buizel::cranidos:
 
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Albatross

Loosely Resembling Some Variety Of Bird
is a Top Artistis a Community Contributor
I'm still not very sure what the fifth Pokemon should be. I prefer something that's obtainable after Eevee, like Gyarados, Gallade, Houndoom, or Weavile. Also should Torterra use curse, swords dance, or rock polish? Should Rampardos use swords dance or rock polish?
I'd probably say go with Houndoom, get a nice fire/water/grass core going with Floatzel and Torterra.

Imo since a lot of the Turtwig logs seem to be using Curse I'd say go with Swords Dance, then since Rampardos has a huge attack but low defences + speed go with Rock Polish to try and patch that up.
 
Torterra + Houndoom is such a good offensive core. Between their STAB's alone, they cover the vast majority of major matchups.

Rampardos absolutely needs rock polish, because it's too frail to take repeated hits. It has to KO the opponent before they can attack. I used Rampardos a while ago on a run I couldn't finish (old laptop broke down, so logs only up to Candice I'm afraid), and Rampardos actually needed both rock polish and swords dance to get anything done, in my experience. I even gave it earthquake right away, and it still missed OHKO's often.

As for Torterra, curse is only really used in the early game, while rock polish is only used in the late game. Rock polish is important for Volkner and Flint in particular. Rampardos needs RP more though, so I think it's smart to test swords dance instead. This also allows us to compare RP Torterra to SD Torterra to see which one is better. Ultimately, it's your choice though. There's not necessarily a right answer.

Also, sumwun , please remember to list the level of your Pokemon when posting logs. Certain level milestones can have a big impact on the matchup, so it's important to keep track of that.
 
:grotle::floatzel::cranidos::eevee:
I edited my previous post to include each Pokemon's item, level, and moves in each important battle.
Grotle: Rawst berry lets it sometimes set up 2 curses against Duskull. Then it can OHKO Duskull and Haunter and 2HKO Mismagius. Mismagius's confuse ray sometimes messes this up, though.

Floatzel: It can outspeed Fantina's whole team, and crunch 2HKOs Mismagius. Like with Grotle, confuse ray is threatening.

Cranidos: It can sweep through Duskull and Haunter if Duskull does not use will-O-wisp. Cranidos is useless against Mismagius.

Eevee: It learns its first non-normal move at level 29.

Grotle @ Rawst berry
Level: 27
- return
- curse
- bite
- razor leaf

Floatzel @ shell bell
Level: 26
- swift
- aqua jet
- water gun
- crunch

Cranidos @ Chesto berry
Level: 21
- focus energy
- pursuit
- earthquake
- rock tomb

Eevee @ shell bell
Ability: adaptability
Level: 25
- tackle
- quick attack
- secret power
- growl
Grotle: Staravia usually starts with double team, which lets Grotle set up 2 curses. Return then OHKOs his entire team.

Floatzel: It can outspeed and 2HKO each Pokemon on his team. As long as Floatzel has a Cheri berry, none of them can stop the sweep.

Cranidos: It can sweep through Staravia and Buizel.

Eevee: It can sweep through any 2 of Staravia, Buizel, or Roselia.

Grotle @ shell bell
Level: 27
- return
- curse
- bite
- razor leaf

Floatzel @ Cheri berry
Level: 26
- swift
- aqua jet
- water gun
- crunch

Cranidos @ shell bell
Level: 21
- focus energy
- pursuit
- earthquake
- rock tomb

Eevee @ shell bell
Ability: adaptability
Level: 25
- tackle
- quick attack
- secret power
- growl
Torterra: It can solo just by spamming earthquake.

Floatzel: It can usually defeat Meditite, but its usefulness against Machoke and Lucario depends a lot on hitting focus blasts.

Cranidos: It always faints in 1 or 2 hits and does very little to no damage.

Espeon: It can solo just by spamming confusion.

Torterra @ shell bell
Level: 34
- return
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ fist plate
Level: 31
- blizzard
- aqua jet
- focus blast
- crunch

Cranidos @ shell bell
Level: 28
- focus energy
- payback
- earthquake
- rock tomb

Espeon @ mind plate
Level: 32
- confusion
- quick attack
- grass knot
- growl
Torterra: After using one curse, it can 2HKO Gyarados and OHKO Floatzel and Quagsire.

Floatzel: It can win the 1v1 against Gyarados or Quagsire.

Rampardos: It either faints in one hit or can do very little damage to Quagsire.

Espeon: It can easily outspeed and one-shot Quagsire and also reliably win the 1v1 against Gyarados. It has a chance of surviving Floatzel's crunch, and psychic is a guaranteed OHKO on Floatzel.

Torterra @ Sitrus berry
Level: 36
- return
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ Sitrus berry
Level: 34
- blizzard
- aqua jet
- focus blast
- crunch

Rampardos @ shell bell
Level: 30
- endeavor
- payback
- earthquake
- rock tomb

Espeon @ mind plate
Level: 34
- psychic
- quick attack
- grass knot
- growl
:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon:
 
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