You know you are watching Super right? Power Scaling makes no sense.
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Media DRAGON BALL SUPER
- Thread starter blarajan
- Start date
You know that what you just said is utter nonsense, even for Super right? Resurrection F introduced Blue for the specific purpose of indicating the usual Super Saiyan forms were insufficient against Golden Frieza, and GF has been shown to tank small amounts of Hakai better than Base Goku (SSJG incorporated, since it was after BoG.) Frieza also curbstomped Cabba's SSJ2 and was not really phased while still in Base.
Respect the show for what it is. Don't Flanderize it excessively just because of your own cynicism.
No, since there are countless instances things like that got contradicted in-series like with Brolina overpowering SSJB Goku and then getting overwhelmed by SSJG Goku. Or how about UI Goku getting barely any hits on Jiren, but later we see Vegeta and Goku getting more clean hits despite being heavily drained from previous fights.
You underestimate how oblivious and incompetent the writers are so far.
Besides I doubt that Blue was introduced to show that it is superior to other SSJ forms because honestly it is not (look at the U6 arc) unless the writers decide otherwise. Same with the Hakai, Goku could have just transformed but chose to get almost erased to show how badass Frieza is and Cabba being overpowered means nothing either since he was apparently weaker than Caulifla who couldn't keep up with a weakened Base Goku despite fighting SSJ2 Goku as an equal episodes earlier.
The point was if the writers want SSJ Goku to beat Golden Frieza, SSJ Goku will beat Golden Frieza. They may give a reason, they may not. If you call that "utter nonsense", you apparently didn't even pay attention to the narritive nor what was going on the past 128 episodes.
Why go back through 128 episodes when I can go back only 1 and point out if Jiren were serious he would have just blown away Vegeta at the first opportunity with a single punch.
But clearly Jiren hasn't been serious and won't get serious until next episode.
Super's writing has been bad at times (Goku's overwhelming stupidity in Future Trunks Arc was a low point), it's not a show where writing is a strong suit. To suggest it has zero narrative rules though as you just have is to ignore the bulk of the narrative devices employed.
Vegeta lasts half an episode against Jiren because it calls back to Buu Saga and gives Vegeta a moment to finally put his trust directly in Goku.
Vegeta defeats Toppo in the episode two installments prior because Toppo made the same mistake Vegeta did accepting the Majin powers in the Buu arc, so Vegeta had motivation to prove doing that was a mistake.
SSJ1 Goku beating Golden Frieza is not going to happen. There is no narrative purpose to doing that for either character. This isn't a question of "power scaling is bullshit" it's a question of character writing, and as I said before your cynicism is unwarranted and not demonstrable.
But clearly Jiren hasn't been serious and won't get serious until next episode.
Super's writing has been bad at times (Goku's overwhelming stupidity in Future Trunks Arc was a low point), it's not a show where writing is a strong suit. To suggest it has zero narrative rules though as you just have is to ignore the bulk of the narrative devices employed.
Vegeta lasts half an episode against Jiren because it calls back to Buu Saga and gives Vegeta a moment to finally put his trust directly in Goku.
Vegeta defeats Toppo in the episode two installments prior because Toppo made the same mistake Vegeta did accepting the Majin powers in the Buu arc, so Vegeta had motivation to prove doing that was a mistake.
SSJ1 Goku beating Golden Frieza is not going to happen. There is no narrative purpose to doing that for either character. This isn't a question of "power scaling is bullshit" it's a question of character writing, and as I said before your cynicism is unwarranted and not demonstrable.
It's the first time goku sees LSSJ Kale. Him getting taken by surprise isn't something i'd consider bad writing. It's also supposed to show us that Kale is actually strong and not fodder, and may have real impact later down the line if they ever decide to pick up on that again. Not to mention, she was berserk when she overpowered ssb goku, she wasn't when she was going even/getting overwhelmed with ssg goku.
as for jiren, it makes sense he'd struggle vs two of the strongest mortals in the multiverse.. i don't see why you're using this as an excuse that super's writing is bad? like as strong as jiren is naturally he might struggle just a tiny bit vs two absurdly strong saiyans. not to mention he ended up beating them anyway so seriously what are you arguing here?
This arc in particular is focusing more on strategy, choreography, and martial arts rather than power levels and pure strength. Caulifla is also a stupid saiyan drunk on the thrill of fights exactly like goku is, and i might be remembering this wrong but she was just playing along and trying to have a good fight, like goku does with pretty much anyone. idk what you mean by looking at u6 arc to see why ssb isn't superior to ssj, it clearly is. honestly the caulifla/kale vs goku episodes were some of the best in this arc
and yes cabba is weaker than caulifla, this was implied way back
no he won't and this is a dumb argument to make. ssb goku barely beat golden freeza, ssj goku will not beat golden freeza. that's like saying base goku could've beaten freeza back in his saga. this is also a bad argument to use and a bad discussion because it (ssj beating golden freeza) didn't and won't happen
Aside from any instance of Jiren not being serious and still kicking ass of SSJB Kaioken times 20 and the point I made about UI earlier. Vegeta also didn't hit him with only one bunch and you still have Goku and 17 getting hits on him. 17 was the only one who won't lose stamina because Android but again, it goes against Jiren not being caught of guard.
Goku wasn't only overwhelmingly stupid in the Blue Trunks arc. This arc it is far beyond stupid.
The point was that Vegeta did better despite not being on Goku's level. Before fighting Toppo, he archived a new form out of nowhere, survived his own explosion which makes no sense, turned SSJ dark blue, runs out of energy and still has enough power to donate to Goku. That is terrible writing. Super regressed Vegeta's character constantly and let him reexperience those moments for the sake of nostalgia. Apparently a Vegeta who trusts Goku instead having an obsessive rivally is what sells.
Toriyama loves irony so Frieza being defeated by the form he was defeated the first time is totally something Toriyama would do. He could also let Frieza win the tournament since the irony of the "absolute evil" winning against a "hero".
Narrative purpose is also affected by perspective. There was no reason for Goku to actually train the U6 Saiyan in a tournament that has is own universe at stake.
Also I don't recall myself stating it will happen. I am just saying it could based on the countless instances happened in-series like when SSJ1 or 2 Blue Trunks not being completely atomized by a blast that knocked out SSJB Goku the episode after Pink SSJ Evil Goku was introduced.
Goku was pushing his attack while Brolina was walking slowly through his Kamehameha. Are you implying he couldn't increase his power to the point to actually push her back, not to mention, free himself from the grip? They could have done a better job without ripping of the Broly movie scenes and not against Goku in SSJB and then contradict it, or the better term would be retcon, when SSJG was used.
What is the point of showing somebody being strong, if it was just for dramatic effects when even a weakened SSJ2 Goku could have just kicked her ass?
It is shitty writing either way you look at it.
I was refering to 2 SSJBs. Goku used Kaioken times 20 in a previous fight which is about 10 times the amount of pressure Jiren got from fighting them in their weakened state. There is no excuse for this. If Goku went UI or used a Kaioken 20+ and fought alongside Vegeta in his new form, fine, you would get a point.
The point I am trying to make is, consistency. Why establish that Jiren has no blind spot if he gets caught of guard by the likes of 17 who announces his pressence? It doesn't matter if he defeats them after all. Before you mention Jiren was supressed, how much more can the guy supress his power knowing his universe is at stake? Where is the tension if he doesn't actively try to stop his foes?
SSJB has a massive stamina drain. After just transforming twice, Vegeta couldn't outperform Base Goku. Why else did they just use SSJ which is the form they actually mastered and is the closest form to their base with barely any stamina or energy drain? Not to mention, retconned SSJG has less stamina drain and offers similar features to SSJB besides raw power.
Also Z established how stragety can get you so far in a fight. Goku overpowered all his opponents in the past who were more experience, had better techniques and strageties. Why else did Roshi not even bother to train for the fight against the Saiyan or went to Namek but the inexperienced Gohan did?
I explained why it doesn't matter if Goku required SSJB earlier for Golden Frieza based on how the show contradicted itself so far. SSJB Goku lost to Brolina, that's a fact. Weakened SSJG Goku overpowered both Caulifla and Brolina. No use of special martial art techniques, outsmarting etc. Just raw power. That is a fact.
And notice that I didn't bring up Kefla in this discussion so far. That honestly one instant that didn't bother me that much compared to many other people who call it bullshit for what was apparently established in the BoG arc regarding SSJG vs Potara Fusion.
I won't repeat much of the points I made on SSJ vs Golden Frieza since you can easily read them and probably will. But don't come back and defend it when it actually comes happens.
I watch the show and share my experience and thoughts because I can and want to. It doesn't matter if it is on a Pokemon focused forum if there is a thread dedicated to Dragon Ball Super. What is wrong with you? If it bothers you to read my comment so much and can't even bother to make a proper response to my point, how about you use the ignore function and get over it?
Also don't say things like "I don't want to get off topic" if that is always the kind of situations you try to create.
This will be the only time I reply to something not related to the topic. If you want an actual conversation and stay on topic, address those issues. If you don't want to get a reply, then don't reply back or, like I mentioned earlier, use the ignore button.
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Great pre-climax. Hype is big now even though the preview spoilered the conclusion
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Great pre-climax. Hype is big now even though the preview spoilered the conclusion
I do really like the angel and demon theme that they're trying to go for right here. Bright red of hatred vs the peaceful white. It makes the Gods of Destruction less like gods if that is there power (which might be the point) and instead they're only there to bring death. They need a figure like Goku that is a champion of life rather than what they stand for. Balance, etc. Like that my boy Android is back, call is a fucking cop-out, he's been terrific and I need more of him in my life.
17 lives and we're on page 17 of the thread. Coincidence??? Also yeaaaa people aren't truly out until you see Zen-O's clicking them away. Plus Vegeta survived his own self destruct-esque attack so there was always a chance 17 would have too.
Also haha did they just make fun of themselves with how Goku still never runs out of stamina. Overall dang the episode does look good, and does further confirm that the opening theme does include all the fight sequences in the tournament lol, which is also pretty neat. Side note, I'm really liking this drawback of MUI. It was already hinted at with UI that it was a capability reached and usable but wasn't something within the normal constraints of Goku's body, and he's basically busted after using UI each time, noticeably after vs Kefla. MUI was basically just UI but includes offense but doesn't address that he's still overdoing his body. While it shows MUI as perhaps his final form, it is far from perfect so Goku will continue to train as usual until his body doesn't knock itself out using MUI. Alternatively he might use it in a way that manga Vegeta does with SSJG + SSJB by swapping transformations to minimize strain. Basically he still hasn't be capped yet and still has ways to grow. Reasonable drawback that hints at further growth whenever the series continues. Also MUI is such a massive power gap from everyone else on Earth so it's time for cough Vegeta cough to catch up or something, so good to not have that around full time.
Although would like to see more of his kids / the younger generation too tbh. They're probably more OP than Goku if he was at their age aren't they.
Also 18 is MVP for keeping the real MVP 17 in the tournament.
Also haha did they just make fun of themselves with how Goku still never runs out of stamina. Overall dang the episode does look good, and does further confirm that the opening theme does include all the fight sequences in the tournament lol, which is also pretty neat. Side note, I'm really liking this drawback of MUI. It was already hinted at with UI that it was a capability reached and usable but wasn't something within the normal constraints of Goku's body, and he's basically busted after using UI each time, noticeably after vs Kefla. MUI was basically just UI but includes offense but doesn't address that he's still overdoing his body. While it shows MUI as perhaps his final form, it is far from perfect so Goku will continue to train as usual until his body doesn't knock itself out using MUI. Alternatively he might use it in a way that manga Vegeta does with SSJG + SSJB by swapping transformations to minimize strain. Basically he still hasn't be capped yet and still has ways to grow. Reasonable drawback that hints at further growth whenever the series continues. Also MUI is such a massive power gap from everyone else on Earth so it's time for cough Vegeta cough to catch up or something, so good to not have that around full time.
Although would like to see more of his kids / the younger generation too tbh. They're probably more OP than Goku if he was at their age aren't they.
Also 18 is MVP for keeping the real MVP 17 in the tournament.
I don't think Goku actually burned out, I think he got attacked from behind, and I don't think it was Frieza. The only Frieza-esque explanation is he kept some of that Hakai-ball from Sidra wrapped up (though he did seem to toss it onto Goku). Personally I'd blame Belmod (how? I don't know, but the burnout was Hakai-esque with the purpe flames.)
That aside, ending on a tag team with Frieza/17/Goku seems like a much more satisfying finale than the 1v1. It also keeps the suspense for Ep 131, of which we only have action shots in the preview. The hype is real.
The fight this episode was so awesome though. Buff Jiren was so awesome, as was super enraged Goku after Jiren tried to blow up the stands.
That aside, ending on a tag team with Frieza/17/Goku seems like a much more satisfying finale than the 1v1. It also keeps the suspense for Ep 131, of which we only have action shots in the preview. The hype is real.
The fight this episode was so awesome though. Buff Jiren was so awesome, as was super enraged Goku after Jiren tried to blow up the stands.
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That's a surprise. C-17 and Frieza. I think it's not what we have thought about the end of that. A welcome surprise with a message, a moral: teamwork is better than "by myself".
My Little Saiyan: Friendship is Magic
I so much wanted Goku's meltdown to actually be Frieza backstabbing but well... let's see what happens next.
I know this is dumb but wtf are frieza and 17 going out to fight? Just f'ing hide. Especially 17, who has no Ki to hide. srsly.
Freeza had to oust himself to keep Goku in the ring. Jiren in his current state would probably still beat Freeza quickly. And if he does, he can presumably knock out Goku for reals before he recovers if 17 hides. If they don't duo, Jiren is possibly just going to win both 1v1s fast enough before time runs out. They probably feel they have a better chance at stalling 2v1 for enough time for Goku to somewhat recover. I doubt Freeza can solo stall Jiren long enough given that Jiren could still do a power up from the teasers.
Overall still pretty 50/50 regardless of whether 17 chooses to hide. So heck might as well fight right??? Who wouldn't want more screen time for 17.
This was a weird episode.
There is so much wrong with Jiren attacking the audience.
1. I thought Jiren is a hero, why did he attack the innocent? Are they trying to make Jiren a villain? There was even an omage to YYH when Taguro came back to the arena after being blasted away by Yusuke, one of the main villains of the series.
2. Zeno didn't erase Jiren for attacking the audience.
3. Goku's friendship speech is one of the most cringy moments in that arc. It is not only out of character for the Goku we know (manga, anime, dub), but also for Goku from Super who actually put his family and friends in danger by letting his guard down or actually going to Zeno despite witnessing him erasing the universe. He didn't even budge when Bills threatened to erase him.
It is funnier when you know the irony of some of his allies being responsable for hurting and even killing his friends. It would make more sense if Goku said something to make Jiren focus on him like "If you want to kill my friends that badly, you have to beat me first.".
There was also a weird line that completely confused me. Jiren asked, why Goku didn't finish him off. Goku says "A guy like you probably already realizes what I am talking about". Is there dialog missing inbetween? Regardless, Goku did intend to finish him which makes it feel like Jiren had to tell Goku to finish him so he actually decides to do so.
Btw why is it called Mastered Ultra Instinct when it has a toll on your body? It makes no sense. Now he has to master Mastered Ultra Instinct?
17 being alive wasn't suprising. Apparently he didn't blow himself up, but how did he manage to protect himself with a non-selfdestructing power?
To my suprise, excluding the recycled intro animation, Super actually used recycled animation properly, very little exposition and most importantly no Zenos. Probably one of the better episodes of this year.
Are we getting an episode 132? How are they going to wrap up the series next episode?
There is so much wrong with Jiren attacking the audience.
1. I thought Jiren is a hero, why did he attack the innocent? Are they trying to make Jiren a villain? There was even an omage to YYH when Taguro came back to the arena after being blasted away by Yusuke, one of the main villains of the series.
2. Zeno didn't erase Jiren for attacking the audience.
3. Goku's friendship speech is one of the most cringy moments in that arc. It is not only out of character for the Goku we know (manga, anime, dub), but also for Goku from Super who actually put his family and friends in danger by letting his guard down or actually going to Zeno despite witnessing him erasing the universe. He didn't even budge when Bills threatened to erase him.
It is funnier when you know the irony of some of his allies being responsable for hurting and even killing his friends. It would make more sense if Goku said something to make Jiren focus on him like "If you want to kill my friends that badly, you have to beat me first.".
There was also a weird line that completely confused me. Jiren asked, why Goku didn't finish him off. Goku says "A guy like you probably already realizes what I am talking about". Is there dialog missing inbetween? Regardless, Goku did intend to finish him which makes it feel like Jiren had to tell Goku to finish him so he actually decides to do so.
Btw why is it called Mastered Ultra Instinct when it has a toll on your body? It makes no sense. Now he has to master Mastered Ultra Instinct?
17 being alive wasn't suprising. Apparently he didn't blow himself up, but how did he manage to protect himself with a non-selfdestructing power?
To my suprise, excluding the recycled intro animation, Super actually used recycled animation properly, very little exposition and most importantly no Zenos. Probably one of the better episodes of this year.
Are we getting an episode 132? How are they going to wrap up the series next episode?
Prediction:
Jiren actually wins ToP, but after winning the 3v1 makes the wish to restore all the universes and his lost friends because of the influence of Son Goku. Goku however chooses not to be wished back just yet like at the end of Frieza arc because he has more to do in the other world or something (Thus the Farewell, Goku in the ep title. Yes, I am assuming Zeno squish isn't a permanent erasure but eh, potholes. This is Dragon Ball. Death is a narrative device, not a permanent effect.)
Jiren actually wins ToP, but after winning the 3v1 makes the wish to restore all the universes and his lost friends because of the influence of Son Goku. Goku however chooses not to be wished back just yet like at the end of Frieza arc because he has more to do in the other world or something (Thus the Farewell, Goku in the ep title. Yes, I am assuming Zeno squish isn't a permanent erasure but eh, potholes. This is Dragon Ball. Death is a narrative device, not a permanent effect.)
Heh, 17 really is the MVP.
Jiren seems more fantastic when he actually shows emotions, lol. Seems like the show is pitching the break as brief, per the narrator's own ending monologue.
The end was quite satisfactory. Looks like my prediction above was wrong. Oh well!
Fun fact: Now 17 has won more tournaments than Krillin.
Jiren seems more fantastic when he actually shows emotions, lol. Seems like the show is pitching the break as brief, per the narrator's own ending monologue.
The end was quite satisfactory. Looks like my prediction above was wrong. Oh well!
Fun fact: Now 17 has won more tournaments than Krillin.
Well done, C17. And Frieza too.
PS: Sis... ;)
PS: Sis... ;)
Awesome conclusion episode!!
Also-- this might have been super obvious to some other people, but I just noticed that the two Saiyans that get the ridiculous berserker gene are the same ones named after vegetable super foods (Broccoli, Kale).
I tried looking for comparisons in nutrients between Cauliflower and Broccoli (wondering if there was even any point to Cauliflower considering it's about the same price and tastes worse)-- the one article I found said, "One is only a very healthy choice, while the other is a super food." Caulifla is stupidly talented compared to the radishes of the world, but she's no Kale or Broccoli.
Also-- this might have been super obvious to some other people, but I just noticed that the two Saiyans that get the ridiculous berserker gene are the same ones named after vegetable super foods (Broccoli, Kale).
I tried looking for comparisons in nutrients between Cauliflower and Broccoli (wondering if there was even any point to Cauliflower considering it's about the same price and tastes worse)-- the one article I found said, "One is only a very healthy choice, while the other is a super food." Caulifla is stupidly talented compared to the radishes of the world, but she's no Kale or Broccoli.