Drawing Mohammed

[Turai]

I personaly think they should sit down and chill.

We're not part of their religion, there's no law preventing us to draw their prophet since we dont have to obey their rules, thats something they'll just have to accept.

Yeah they might be insulted but so was christians by The Life Of Brian and last I checked they didn't try and kill Monthy Python (I might have missed something obv).

And for muslims out there reading:
If you guys are right, why get angry? Those drawing the prophet is just gonna burn in hell anyways. And if you are wrong, there's no reason to be upset at all.

And just as a response:

By the way, no other major religion (other than Atheism in Communist countries, if you count that as a religion) threatens violence for going against it's teachings in the present day. Christianity and Judaism and Buddhism all deal with people making fun of them (although, honestly, who makes fun of Buddhists?), although they denounce it. Islam has to learn the difference between denouncing something and attempting to kill it.

What does Atheism have to do with Communism?
Nothing, the only thing Atheism really is is people that don't belive that god exists.
I wouldn't even call it a religion since there's only room for things that have been proven while religion is all about beliving in stuff.

 

[afterburn]

@ Vega - I don't appreciate the implication that I have somehow implied ignorance of the facts involved. Where there is any ambiguity, I have stated as much. I haven't read the entirety of the quran, but have read more than enough to justify my statements about its content. As I said, the quran teaches morals most Western audiences would find reprehensible. If you're not willing to acknowledge that, you're in denial and an idiot.

@ SBC - another idiot. Notice how I don't mention the sects of the ridiculous cult. I already said there are cherry-pickers who obey the "good" parts of their book and ignore the objectionable parts. And I already explained that it's immaterial: you claim that Allah is all knowing and the quran is his word, you are stating your approval of the objectionable material in the book. There's nothing else to it. I couldn't care less whether or not you're into the apocryphal shit or obey the various "rules" not mentioned in the book but commanded by leaders of muslim sects. The things all Muslims share are more than enough to call them all disgusting and immoral.

Is not one person here willing to attempt to think beyond their indoctrination?

Welcome to my shit list.

You know nothing of the religion, you're going on and on about. Have you memorized the Qur'an or something, that you're blabbering about objectionable material. Firstly all the rules a Muslim should know, ARE mentioned in the Qu'ran, which is something an idiot like you wouldn't know. And what do you mean by "The things all Muslims share are more than enough to call them all disgusting and immoral". Are you saying all Muslims are cherry pickers, and deny what they want in the Qu'ran and accept what they will? Some of us may do that, but not ALL of us.

I haven't read the entirety of the quran, but have read more than enough to justify my statements about its content.

Bullshit. If you have read enough, you would know the Qur'an talks about treating everyone peacefully and calmly, even against enemies. It asks a Muslim to fight back, when an enemy strikes them. It talks about being humble ,trustworthy, etc. Show me one part where it asks a Muslim to be brutal against someone, unless they are attacked first

 

[lati0s]

What does Atheism have to do with Communism?
Nothing, the only thing Atheism really is is people that don't belive that god exists.
I wouldn't even call it a religion since there's only room for things that have been proven while religion is all about beliving in stuff.

In some communist countries there was state enforced atheism where you could be punished for suggesting that there might be a god or being religious. It's not a necessary part of communism, but it has been there in the past.

 

[Adm. Empoleon]

Lelouch, you call others ignorant if they are Muslims or support them, yet you are ignorant about Islam itself. I can't see the point here.

I haven't read the entirety of the quran, but have read more than enough to justify my statements about its content.

As LK said, that's bullshit. It teaches you how to live life in the best way there is. It teaches you to be humble, honest, and pure of heart. It doesn't say: "Hey, if a Christian is living in your area, you should kill him.". It says: "Be kind to anyone who differs with you in faith." By that, I mean to be kind to Jews and Christians everywhere.

Give us one verse in the WHOLE Quran that asks Muslims to go brutal on anyone.

 

[Lelouch]

You are too stupid for words. After I have addressed your post, I will be adding you to my ignore list.

Firstly, no, I haven't memorized the quran. I can't imagine why it would be necessary. What I mean is this: I haven't memorized Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows either, but I do know Voldemort is an asshole. Understand? One need not have commited to memory an entire work to know it contains material one objects to.

Secondly, the "rules" I mentioned were in quotes because when I refer to these "rules", I refer to the various laws Islamic scholars have pulled out of thin air. As with the objectionable material from the quran, I refuse to play your game and provide examples. Everyone here is aware that some Muslim leaders in some countries impose laws not based on Islamic canon or apocryphal works and call it Islamic, so let's not pretend otherwise.

Finally, no, I did not imply all Muslims are cherry-pickers. I'm unsure how you inferred that. When I referred to those Muslims who ARE cherry-pickers, which is to say, they pick and choose what verses to obey, I was setting forth that I consider them no better or worse than the "strict" Muslims who obey everything the book sets forth (insofar as that is possible).

In relation to your last paragraph, I would like to reiterate that an exhaustive knowledge of every verse of the quran is not necessary to judge it if you have seen only one verse you disapprove of. If someone opens the quran to a random page and finds material advocating behaviour he considers abhorrent, that person is perfectly justified in considering it a book of evil and its adherents to be equally evil.

It's the same as how I consider Mein Kampf to contain evil philosophies and would therefore abhor anyone who has read it and claims it as the basis of his philosophy. The fact that in the case of the quran there are millions of people who base their philosophies on it is immaterial: as I said earlier, the concept that something is acceptable because it's popular is merely mob mentality. Islam (and Christianity, and Judaism) is no different than the National Socialism in that respect. We in the west do not consider National Socialist philosophy acceptable regardless of the fact it had plenty of adherents, and by the same token nor should Islam be acceptable through force of numbers.

@ Adm. Empoleon - I don't recall suggesting brutality to be what I refer to when I object to Islam. As I have said several times now, I will reiterate here in simplified terms. "SOME THINGS IN THE QURAN CAN BE THOUGHT OF AS BAD". I didn't, and won't, specify. I am not going to get into a game of interpreting the rantings of a madman writing a work of fiction, certainly not with someone who believes it isn't a work of fiction.

 

[sbc]

lol I am the idiot here? Not the guy who has no respect for people purely because of their religion. You can cut down all your stupid rhetoric and simply continue posting "I don't know much about Islam except for the fact that I think it's wrong"

Do you actually know anything about Islam except for what you've heard from Fox news? I'd actually like you to demonstrate some ACTUAL knowledge about the religion. (Where knowledge =/= ignorance)

And your logic is outstandingly stupid

"all Muslims are bad because the Qu'ran has bad elements"
"the Qu'ran has some good and bad elements"
"Well those who ignore the bad elements will still be considered bad"

A nice similar scenario for you. It's legal in the UK to kill a Scotsman within the boundaries of the city of York with a crossbow. Do you also have a similar lack of respect for UK citizens because their country allows to them to do this?

 

[Lelouch]

lol I am the idiot here? Not the guy who has no respect for people purely because of their religion. You can cut down all your stupid rhetoric and simply continue posting "I don't know much about Islam except for the fact that I think it's wrong"

Do you actually know anything about Islam except for what you've heard from Fox news? I'd actually like you to demonstrate some ACTUAL knowledge about the religion. (Where knowledge =/= ignorance)

As I said, several times, I refuse to be drawn into that petty game in which I post an objectionable verse and then we discuss the many ways it could be interpreted.

 

[Adm. Empoleon]

As I said, several times, I refuse to be drawn into that petty game in which I post an objectionable verse and then we discuss the many ways it could be interpreted.

Why not? It could be a good use to demonstrate your obvious verbal fluency? Or are you too scared to know the truth?

 

[Tsunami]

And your logic is outstandingly stupid

"all Muslims are bad because the Qu'ran has bad elements"
"the Qu'ran has some good and bad elements"
"Well those who ignore the bad elements will still be considered bad"

I would like to see Lelouch respond to that.

 

[Matthew]

As I said, several times, I refuse to be drawn into that petty game in which I post an objectionable verse and then we discuss the many ways it could be interpreted.

Can you just go actually read the Koran and see why you're wrong in every single way. Last night after reading your posts I went to go read mine again to find any 'questionable material,' and while there is some (note: the bible has plenty in it too) it mostly preaches about peace and non-violence.

 

[Adm. Empoleon]

Can you just go actually read the Koran and see why you're wrong in every single way. Last night after reading your posts I went to go read mine again to find any 'questionable material,' and while there is some (note: the bible has plenty in it too) it mostly preaches about peace and non-violence.

See, Lelouch? Even people who don't believe in Islam see that it preaches about peace. So where's your rhetorical flourish response now?

 

[Lelouch]

Why not? It could be a good use to demonstrate your obvious verbal fluency? Or are you too scared to know the truth?

No, dear. As I said several times (anyone else getting tired of going round in circles yet?), we all know the book contains things the average Western man will object to. I refuse to elaborate because that legitimizes your ridiculous suggestion that every single verse in the quran is a paragon of virtue.

You've had ample time in your several posts to prove yourself capable of defending your point intelligently and have failed miserably, so if you have anything to contribute beyond "LOL PROVE TEH QURAN RNT MEAN", please do so. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

@ Tsunami - my objection to the cherry-pickers who ignore the parts of the quran I disapprove of is that they maintain a belief in Allah. Allah, the main character of the quran, is a cunt. I think more of Hitler's followers than anyone who can read about Allah and respect him.

Besides anything else, if you pick and choose what parts of the quran - Allah's word - you're going to follow until all that's left is what we already believe in (don't murder, etc), you're not a Muslim, are you?

@ Adm. Empoleon - I note you ignore the quoted person's acknowledgement that there is some objectionable material present. You're going on my ignore list, you obviously don't have the capacity to improve.

 

[Matthew]

No, dear. As I said several times (anyone else getting tired of going round in circles yet?), we all know the book contains things the average Western man will object to. I refuse to elaborate because that legitimizes your ridiculous suggestion that every single verse in the quran is a paragon of virtue.

You've had ample time in your several posts to prove yourself capable of defending your point intelligently and have failed miserably, so if you have anything to contribute beyond "LOL PROVE TEH QURAN RNT MEAN", please do so. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

@ Tsunami - my objection to the cherry-pickers who ignore the parts of the quran I disapprove of is that they maintain a belief in Allah. Allah, the main character of the quran, is a cunt. I think more of Hitler's followers than anyone who can read about Allah and respect him.

Besides anything else, if you pick and choose what parts of the quran - Allah's word - you're going to follow until all that's left is what we already believe in (don't murder, etc), you're not a Muslim, are you?

@ Adm. Empoleon - I note you ignore the quoted person's acknowledgement that there is some objectionable material present. You're going on my ignore list, you obviously don't have the capacity to improve.

You're missing the point of where Adm.Empoleon quoted me. All religious works have some questionable material, or something which you can deem questionable. The point is the inherent message of the entire thing isn't one of violence nor evil, it's one of peace. To say otherwise is wrong.

 

[Quaily]

I thought the whole thing was dumb because it amounted to "hey! look at me! give me attention!". Making people angry isn't going to change their minds, especially when something as irrational as religion is involved. You could easily draw jesus doing things that would send christians over the edge too.

 

[Lelouch]

You're missing the point of where Adm.Empoleon quoted me. All religious works have some questionable material, or something which you can deem questionable. The point is the inherent message of the entire thing isn't one of violence nor evil, it's one of peace. To say otherwise is wrong.

Assume this is a fragment of some ancient unnamed religion.

Women are inferior to men.
You should believe in things without proof.
Murder is bad.
Two plus two equals four.

While I might agree with some of the content, I consider some of it abhorrent. Whether or not you consider it acceptable to venerate a book you consider to promote what you consider immorality will vary from individual to individual. However, it is certainly not "wrong" to refuse to pretend that overall, Islam is not a harmful religion (same goes for Christianity and Judaism).

 

[Fishy]

People have freedom of speech and freedom of expression, but I think as far as Draw Mohammad Day goes, people are only exemplifying their freedom to be needlessly outlandish, selfish, and disrespectful. Yes, it's disrespectful so long as someone FINDS it to be so; if you're going to see that someone is offended, then you've done something that they find disrespectful, bad, etc.

Anyway Lelouch, I don't see why you wouldn't want to cite/quote all the bad verses and other such examples in the Quran that support your arguement. As far as I can tell, you're choosing to disregard the possibility that upon closer inspection and group opinion, you might question your own beliefs, and embarrass yourself and your belief of the Quran's "moral caliber" if you will. Anyway, I find it funny that you're willing to condemn an entire book because it has "one line of content that you don't agree with." Why does it make Muslims/other people stupid then to read what GOOD the Quran has, and be satisfied enough with that to believe in it and follow the GOOD guidelines that it offers?

-sigh-

 

[Lelouch]

Anyway Lelouch, I don't see why you wouldn't want to cite/quote all the bad verses and other such examples in the Quran that support your arguement. As far as I can tell, you're choosing to disregard the possibility that upon closer inspection and group opinion, you might question your own beliefs, and embarrass yourself and your belief of the Quran's "moral caliber" if you will. Anyway, I find it funny that you're willing to condemn an entire book because it has "one line of content that you don't agree with." Why does it make Muslims/other people stupid then to read what GOOD the Quran has, and be satisfied enough with that to believe in it and follow the GOOD guidelines that it offers?

-sigh-

These questions have all been addressed in earlier posts. I will remark, however, that while I have no concept of offense, a lesser man would probably be rather offended by the implication that when faced with an alternate "group opinion" one would concede his own.

While I don't recall limiting my problems with the quran to one line, I will agree that one line out of place is all it takes to make an otherwise acceptable book an immoral one, when that book is treated as a work to live by.

 

[sbc]

Assume this is a fragment of some ancient unnamed religion.

While I might agree with some of the content, I consider some of it abhorrent. Whether or not you consider it acceptable to venerate a book you consider to promote what you consider immorality will vary from individual to individual. However, it is certainly not "wrong" to refuse to pretend that overall, Islam is not a harmful religion (same goes for Christianity and Judaism).

Based upon what? A minority of terrorists basically. According to MI5, in the UK there are about 3000 active terrorist sympathisers out of a population of 2-3 million. So well done in tarring literally 99.9% of the population with the actions of a minority.

You may also want to publish a book. I recommend you call it the "Satanic Verses"

 

[Lelouch]

Based upon what? A minority of terrorists basically. According to MI5, in the UK there are about 3000 active terrorist sympathisers out of a population of 2-3 million. So well done in tarring literally 99.9% of the population with the actions of a minority.

You may also want to publish a book. I recommend you call it the "Satanic Verses"

When did I mention terrorism?

EDIT: rhetorical question. Go away, I'm not in the mood for yet another moron bringing up something completely irrelevant I've gone out of my way to avoid mentioning. You're on the ignore list.

 

[afterburn]

What so, in this way you're going to get the whole forum under your ignore list?

Do you even know the purpose of the Qur'an?

I'm going to tell this to you, from a Muslim's point of view. The Qur'an was sent down into Arabia, where people lived like savages at that time. It was sent to turn them into proper human beings. They were already being brutal and violent, so what the Quran was sent to them to make them even more savage and wild? It showed them examples of what had happened to previous civilizations that were just like them, to mend their ways and make them civilized

You posted earlier that if you read part of something, you know the whole story. So if you open any random page in a book, read it, you know the whole plot, storyline, and what's going to come next in the book?

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm not a Muslim but honestly I think the draw Muhammad thing is bullshit. I don't see how anyone's idea of fun is to draw a picture of a prophet from another religion. I don't see any intention but to offend, and poke fun at others and I'm not sure that should come under the protection of freedom of speech.

I also notice a post from Deck Knight telling Muslims to "get over it". I assume that Deck too wouldn't mind offensive depictations of Christian figures. Just because it happens, doesn't mean it is acceptable. Just seems like hypocrisy there.

There's nothing particularly hypocritical about my position, which is:

"You have the right to express yourself in terrible, offensive, backward, bigoted, intolerant, insulting words, images, videos, or otherwise. In exchange I have the right to ignore, laugh at, ridicule, mock, and otherwise express myself similarly. The only thing I don't have the right to retaliate with is the threat or actualization of violence."

I'd be living in a dream world if I thought people like Bill Maher would stop using their platform as a means to bash my religion or whatever else they have hatred and contempt for. The "Draw Mohammed Day" started only after South Park was censored for the second time by Comedy Central for daring to depict Mohammed in a cartoon based on freaking cardboard cutouts. Quite frankly they might not be such rich targets (for the brave few) if they didn't threaten blackmail and murder for depicting their prophet. Combined with the tendency of jihadists to unprovoked blackmail and murder, I don't see the difference.

Ridicule is effective. That's why satirists are both praised and despised. Quite frankly I don't mind the occasional low-brow assault on my religion. Satire is effective, stupid isn't, and stupid people are rarely effective satirists. I'm more afraid of "high-minded" people who want to ban offensive speech than I am of a bunch of theocratic throwbacks. The difference is that the "high-minded" have general approval, even though both groups have the same commitment to censorship of the "wrong kind of speech." If you hate women driving, you're backwards, you see. Not so if you just want to ban "hate speech."

Both the propositions of "ban hate speech against Islam" and "kill those who offend Islam" are wrong if enforced as law.

 

[Tsunami]

So ridicule should be supported even after the point has been made across?

 

[Lelouch]

I certainly believe so.

Like I said in one of the earliest posts, it doesn't matter if you're being offensive in the name of a cause or just to be offensive. You should have the freedom to be so, period. Granted, you might consider it crass to be offensive for its own sake, but you certainly shouldn't seek to ban it.

 

[Tsunami]

So the idea of decency is lost upon western civilization basically.

 

[Lelouch]

So the idea of decency is lost upon western civilization basically.

The concept of "decency" is all very well as long as it's understood that "decency" is optional and at best should only ever take second place to the exercise and defence of our rights.