It seems pretty clear that Soul Dew will be autobanned when released, though. I mean, Latios and Latias are already both very good in OU, Latios almost to the point of being suspect. A huge boost in power will easily make them both broken. I don't think you'll find much if any dissent.
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Dream World Tier Discussion
- Thread starter lostaurora
- Start date
It seems pretty clear that Soul Dew will be autobanned when released, though. I mean, Latios and Latias are already both very good in OU, Latios almost to the point of being suspect. A huge boost in power will easily make them both broken. I don't think you'll find much if any dissent.
Honestly, I see no reason to ban anything from DW OU. As it is, the metagame is balanced, despite, or perhaps BECAUSE OF, guys like Soul Dew Latis and Shadow Tag Chandy.
Unless the set that got him banned on the PO server becomes provably broken here, Chandy is perfectly healthy for the metagame. Scarf Chandy (the most popular set) is like ADV Band Dugtrio. The guy traps and revenge kills things, including the Latis which are so "broken". Meanwhile, his typing means any fast pursuiter can come in and revenge the revenger, not to mention Ditto wipes the floor with Chandy provided he's locked into an attack not named Shadow Ball. Also, weather wars exist. Which means Tyranitar and rain exist. If sun was the dominant weather you'd make a solid case, but as it is, Chandy deserves to stay.
The Latis, with their soul dew, essentially get one calm mind for free. I get it, that kind of power is amazing. But the problem is that they're dragons and psychics. The metagame has adapted around dragons, and life isn't too kind for psychic types in this metagame, or any other post-RBY metagame either. Most sets carry a dragon move, surf, and psyshock as their attacking moves. Even with a rain boost, specially defensive Jirachi walls the twins to hell and back. So does T-tar with the right EV investment. I've seen plenty of Pokes beat a Lati one on one despite the soul dew. And remember, soul dew means no leftovers. Sand is their enemy. If you can get off a t-wave (prankster anyone?) you're good to go, and toxic and WoW wears them down too. And let's not even get started on Chandy and Genesect.
Remember how people say Ubers is the most balanced metagame because the things that would be broken in OU are checked by each other? This is kind of like that, with OU Pokes checking them as well. as long as T-tar, Jirachi, and Genesect stay in use, the Latis aren't anywhere near broken. And as long as rain and pursuit, and SR, exists, Chandelure with Shadow Tag is fine too.
Also, Excadrill and Thunderus. Not broken in DW OU. Not at ALL. And with Ditto running around, Blaziken is less broken than he was in "Wifi" OU. Veilhax kills Chomp but what can you do?
Will do! Thanks for the encouragement!
Unless the set that got him banned on the PO server becomes provably broken here, Chandy is perfectly healthy for the metagame. Scarf Chandy (the most popular set) is like ADV Band Dugtrio. The guy traps and revenge kills things, including the Latis which are so "broken". Meanwhile, his typing means any fast pursuiter can come in and revenge the revenger, not to mention Ditto wipes the floor with Chandy provided he's locked into an attack not named Shadow Ball. Also, weather wars exist. Which means Tyranitar and rain exist. If sun was the dominant weather you'd make a solid case, but as it is, Chandy deserves to stay.
The Latis, with their soul dew, essentially get one calm mind for free. I get it, that kind of power is amazing. But the problem is that they're dragons and psychics. The metagame has adapted around dragons, and life isn't too kind for psychic types in this metagame, or any other post-RBY metagame either. Most sets carry a dragon move, surf, and psyshock as their attacking moves. Even with a rain boost, specially defensive Jirachi walls the twins to hell and back. So does T-tar with the right EV investment. I've seen plenty of Pokes beat a Lati one on one despite the soul dew. And remember, soul dew means no leftovers. Sand is their enemy. If you can get off a t-wave (prankster anyone?) you're good to go, and toxic and WoW wears them down too. And let's not even get started on Chandy and Genesect.
Remember how people say Ubers is the most balanced metagame because the things that would be broken in OU are checked by each other? This is kind of like that, with OU Pokes checking them as well. as long as T-tar, Jirachi, and Genesect stay in use, the Latis aren't anywhere near broken. And as long as rain and pursuit, and SR, exists, Chandelure with Shadow Tag is fine too.
Also, Excadrill and Thunderus. Not broken in DW OU. Not at ALL. And with Ditto running around, Blaziken is less broken than he was in "Wifi" OU. Veilhax kills Chomp but what can you do?
Will do! Thanks for the encouragement!
The problem is that the entire metagame revolves around like 15 pokemon. It doesn't seem broken because it was allowed to settle.
Chandy, the Latis, Genesect, T-tar, Politoed, Ninetales, Ditto, Prankster Sableye, (I use one, it's EXTREMELY effective in DW) Breloom, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Keldeo, Magic Bounce Espeon, Gengar, and damn if I don't always see Alakazam and Jellicent running around.
Plus, weather abusers. Does DW OU have that ban on Swift Swim + Drizzle? If not, that opens up a lot more Pokes, and they are more easily checked due to the DW Metagame. This includes Excadrill and Thunderbro. Plus there are other threats that I just haven't faced yet.
But if we were to ban ST Chandy, or the Soul Dew... that might not have the best effect on the metagame either. IDK what would happen for sure, but I do know this: Genesect would lose its best counter in Chandy, among other things.
I personally don't care about having Dream World become an official tier. But there are 3 things that I would like to see removed.
Soul Dew
Soul Dew is without a doubt the most ridiculous item in DW OU. I will argue this in two seperate cases, the Latias case and the Latios case.
Even in 4th Gen Ubers, Latias was far and away the best Calm Minder in the game. Not only because of its high special stats and speed, but also because it gets an automatic calm mind just for coming in. This thing is an absolute monster. It can shrug off Choice Specs Kyogre for heavens sake. Latias is pretty much impossible to take down with a special move. The only thing I can think of is Draco Meteor from Latios, Hydreigon, and even that isn't a guarantee. After a Calm Mind Boost, Latias actually has a chance of surviving, while returning the KO with Dragon Pulse. We're talking about a 140 Base power super effective STAB move here coming from some of the most powerful special attackers in the game here. Thats obscene.
Thought Latios was powerful before right? With a Choice Specs, Latios is one of the biggest powerhouses in the game, capable of plowing through everything thats not named Tyranitar, Chansey, Blissey, or is a specially defensive steel type. Think about the power of Latios. Now think about that with the ability to change moves, the option to carry a recovery move, the freedom to boost stats, and a free +1 Special Defense boost. While Latios' Special Defense isn't as retardedly hard to break through like that of Latias, its still absolutely ridiculous. You're really not getting through that with anything besides a Draco Meteor or something. Latios now has the option of saying fuck you to Scizor, Blissey and Tyranitar depending on its coverage move. Scizor came in on Draco Meteor? Just close it off with a Hidden Power Fire later and recover off like the Bullet Punch damage or whatever bullshit your opponent used to "check Latios". There's a Blissey or Tyranitar on their team? Just anticipate the switchin and hit with Psyshock or Surf respectively. Even Tyranitar will fall with Spikes support. Is Toxicroak or whoever going to try and sucker punch you? Just Recover and switch out, thanks for the free turn buddy. But the most ridiculous of all is the option to carry dragon dance. Great, now you can't even revenge kill this thing. You may think Dragon Dance is a complete gimmick, but I can't tell you how wrong you are. Don't interpret this as "Dragon Dance", interpret this as standard ladder Latios... except it just used Quiver Dance. Volcorona, a freaking x4 Stealth Rock weak, is considered the best special sweeper in BW OU due to Quiver Dance, now imagine that on Latios...
Even in 4th Gen Ubers, Latias was far and away the best Calm Minder in the game. Not only because of its high special stats and speed, but also because it gets an automatic calm mind just for coming in. This thing is an absolute monster. It can shrug off Choice Specs Kyogre for heavens sake. Latias is pretty much impossible to take down with a special move. The only thing I can think of is Draco Meteor from Latios, Hydreigon, and even that isn't a guarantee. After a Calm Mind Boost, Latias actually has a chance of surviving, while returning the KO with Dragon Pulse. We're talking about a 140 Base power super effective STAB move here coming from some of the most powerful special attackers in the game here. Thats obscene.
Thought Latios was powerful before right? With a Choice Specs, Latios is one of the biggest powerhouses in the game, capable of plowing through everything thats not named Tyranitar, Chansey, Blissey, or is a specially defensive steel type. Think about the power of Latios. Now think about that with the ability to change moves, the option to carry a recovery move, the freedom to boost stats, and a free +1 Special Defense boost. While Latios' Special Defense isn't as retardedly hard to break through like that of Latias, its still absolutely ridiculous. You're really not getting through that with anything besides a Draco Meteor or something. Latios now has the option of saying fuck you to Scizor, Blissey and Tyranitar depending on its coverage move. Scizor came in on Draco Meteor? Just close it off with a Hidden Power Fire later and recover off like the Bullet Punch damage or whatever bullshit your opponent used to "check Latios". There's a Blissey or Tyranitar on their team? Just anticipate the switchin and hit with Psyshock or Surf respectively. Even Tyranitar will fall with Spikes support. Is Toxicroak or whoever going to try and sucker punch you? Just Recover and switch out, thanks for the free turn buddy. But the most ridiculous of all is the option to carry dragon dance. Great, now you can't even revenge kill this thing. You may think Dragon Dance is a complete gimmick, but I can't tell you how wrong you are. Don't interpret this as "Dragon Dance", interpret this as standard ladder Latios... except it just used Quiver Dance. Volcorona, a freaking x4 Stealth Rock weak, is considered the best special sweeper in BW OU due to Quiver Dance, now imagine that on Latios...
Chandelure
Another pokemon that absolutely needs to GTFO is Chandelure. Yeah, its usage has dropped quite a bit since its inception, but this isn't fooling anybody. Chandelure is most definately the single most broken pokemon in DW OU history. You thought Shaymin-S was uncompetitive? Chandelure makes that thing look like Whimsicott since its often 2 kills on its own. You thought Darkrai was impossible to check? Chandelure makes that look like Swampert. Because you can't even kill stuff without worrying about a Chandelure coming in next turn to pick you off. You thought Drizzle+Swift Swim was overpowered? Chandelure makes that look like Hail Hyper Offense Offense. Because Chandelure can give almost any kind of support you want. You though Deoxys'A was hard to switch into? Chandelure makes that look like Virizion. Because you're not even allowed to switch out unless you carry Shed Shell.
Speaking of Shed Shell, every fucking steel type on Earth carries this now just because of Chandelure. In fact, even a lot of non steel types carry Shed Shell now, because Choice Scarf Chandelure is basically a kill against anyone except a scarfer/ +1 speed poke. Its absolutely retarded how much overcentralization Chandelure causes. Think of it as (Magnezone+Dugtrio+Wobbufett)x12000000. The scarf set can be tailored to remove anything you want. Since its gigantic base 145 Special Attack means it might as well be carrying a Specs. Need to win a weather war? Slap some combination of Energy Ball, Hidden Power Fighting, or Hidden Power Ground or something on, then just sack something useless to the opposing weather inducer. Game, Set, Match. Need to plow a path for your dragons to sweep? Screw 4Drag2Mag. Just slap on a Chandelure and go with 5Drag1Chan. Chandelure does the job of taking out steels better than Magnezone ever could. Ferrothorn can shrug off HP Fires in the rain right? Well Chandelure just says screw that and kills it with a STAB Fire Blast. Chandelure also conveniently picks off troublesome threats such as Slowbro, Hippowdon and Quagsire with Shadow Ball and Energy Ball. It takes no skill whatsoever to use 5Drag1Chan. Just take a Scarf Chandy, slap on 5 random dragons, and spam Outrages/ Draco Meteors, takng out steels and Hippowdon and crew with Chandy whenever necessary.
Then there's Sub CM Chandelure. Or as I like to call it Sub 2 surefire KOs Chandelure. Choice Band Conkeldurr seems like a great way to deal with Excadrill doesn't it? Think again. Just throw in Chandy, SubCM your way to +6 and take Conk down. Your opponent sends in his fire/ghost resist? Well Chandelure says fuck you anyways. 145 base SpA Modest is just going to plow straight through anyways. You thought the Choice Scarf set provided obscene team support right. Well there is actually one other pokemon that can match that. What is it? Its still fucking Chandelure. Need to break stall? Just slap on a SubCM Chandelure and laugh as your opponent flails around uselessly. Have a specially based Hyper Offense team, but don't want to deal with Blissey? Just slap on a Chandy. Come in on Blissey and get your two surefire kills. Have only 5 pokemon and can't think of anything for the last slot? Just slap on an Air Balloon onto Chandy, come in on a Choiced Ground move, and take your two free kills. Now its 5 on 4. Isn't that nice?
Speaking of Shed Shell, every fucking steel type on Earth carries this now just because of Chandelure. In fact, even a lot of non steel types carry Shed Shell now, because Choice Scarf Chandelure is basically a kill against anyone except a scarfer/ +1 speed poke. Its absolutely retarded how much overcentralization Chandelure causes. Think of it as (Magnezone+Dugtrio+Wobbufett)x12000000. The scarf set can be tailored to remove anything you want. Since its gigantic base 145 Special Attack means it might as well be carrying a Specs. Need to win a weather war? Slap some combination of Energy Ball, Hidden Power Fighting, or Hidden Power Ground or something on, then just sack something useless to the opposing weather inducer. Game, Set, Match. Need to plow a path for your dragons to sweep? Screw 4Drag2Mag. Just slap on a Chandelure and go with 5Drag1Chan. Chandelure does the job of taking out steels better than Magnezone ever could. Ferrothorn can shrug off HP Fires in the rain right? Well Chandelure just says screw that and kills it with a STAB Fire Blast. Chandelure also conveniently picks off troublesome threats such as Slowbro, Hippowdon and Quagsire with Shadow Ball and Energy Ball. It takes no skill whatsoever to use 5Drag1Chan. Just take a Scarf Chandy, slap on 5 random dragons, and spam Outrages/ Draco Meteors, takng out steels and Hippowdon and crew with Chandy whenever necessary.
Then there's Sub CM Chandelure. Or as I like to call it Sub 2 surefire KOs Chandelure. Choice Band Conkeldurr seems like a great way to deal with Excadrill doesn't it? Think again. Just throw in Chandy, SubCM your way to +6 and take Conk down. Your opponent sends in his fire/ghost resist? Well Chandelure says fuck you anyways. 145 base SpA Modest is just going to plow straight through anyways. You thought the Choice Scarf set provided obscene team support right. Well there is actually one other pokemon that can match that. What is it? Its still fucking Chandelure. Need to break stall? Just slap on a SubCM Chandelure and laugh as your opponent flails around uselessly. Have a specially based Hyper Offense team, but don't want to deal with Blissey? Just slap on a Chandy. Come in on Blissey and get your two surefire kills. Have only 5 pokemon and can't think of anything for the last slot? Just slap on an Air Balloon onto Chandy, come in on a Choiced Ground move, and take your two free kills. Now its 5 on 4. Isn't that nice?
Genosect
Geno is not nearly as broken as the two aforementioned threats, but is heavy enough a presence to justify a nomination. I wont spend as much time on this since a Geno ban is not as crucial for the health of the metagame as a Soul Dew or Chandy ban. Excadrill's ban means we will likely start seeing more base 100 scarfers and Geno's base 99 speed is probably the only thing keeping it from being Chandelure style broken. Even so, with a Choice Scarf and a fantastic movepool consisting of Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and Ice Beam, Genosect can act as that catch all revenge killer. Combine that with Bug Buzz and Download and Genosect can easily pull off a late game sweep if necessary. Download boosted U-Turns are going to hit shit hard as well. Basically, you have yourself a Scizor with a better movepool and is not prone to HP Fire from like everything. With Download and Choice Specs boosts, and impeccable coverage with the four aforementioned special moves, and Genosect is a fantastic nuke as well. There's also this gimmicky rain abuser set I've come up with using the water cassett thing, Thunder, Bug Buzz and Rock Polish that I personally find to be one of the best rain sweepers in existence, but nobody else uses it so moot point. Anyways, the point is, a player can just slap a Genosect on their team and instantly check everything without a scarf or speed boosting move, hence making it "too good a fit for the metagame"
Yes to the first point: Soul Dew is incredibly broken in DW OU, no questions asked. Latios and Latias are already very powerful without that, and it's just crazy with.
Chandelure is definitely debatable. It suffers from the same thing that Wobb and Trio did, the advent of team preview. But unlike Wobb's literally non-attacking move pool or Duggy's shedinja-like defenses, Chandelure has the stats to back up its ability.
What I think makes Chandelure broken is that it's almost like blackmail. You see it on team preview and every move from then on is based on the thought "If I do this, will I lose my Pokemon?" As such, the meta has basically degenerated into Pokemon that can kill with U-turn or Volt Switch and Pokemon that can kill Chandelure before the opposite happens. That's why Genesect is so prevalent, because it can do so much with its U-turns. If it came to a vote I would say "BAN" but I can understand the opposite.
Genesect, on the other hand, I think is definitely manageable. There are two types: The type that spams u-turn and nothing else (due, of course, to Chandelure), which is easily worked around by something that (gasp) resists u-turn. The other is the Rock Polish type, which just doesn't pack enough power to punch through most special walls. However, if Chandelure was banned, then he might be reevaluated since the scarf set suddenly gains so much more utility when it doesn't just have to spam U-turn.
Chandelure is definitely debatable. It suffers from the same thing that Wobb and Trio did, the advent of team preview. But unlike Wobb's literally non-attacking move pool or Duggy's shedinja-like defenses, Chandelure has the stats to back up its ability.
What I think makes Chandelure broken is that it's almost like blackmail. You see it on team preview and every move from then on is based on the thought "If I do this, will I lose my Pokemon?" As such, the meta has basically degenerated into Pokemon that can kill with U-turn or Volt Switch and Pokemon that can kill Chandelure before the opposite happens. That's why Genesect is so prevalent, because it can do so much with its U-turns. If it came to a vote I would say "BAN" but I can understand the opposite.
Genesect, on the other hand, I think is definitely manageable. There are two types: The type that spams u-turn and nothing else (due, of course, to Chandelure), which is easily worked around by something that (gasp) resists u-turn. The other is the Rock Polish type, which just doesn't pack enough power to punch through most special walls. However, if Chandelure was banned, then he might be reevaluated since the scarf set suddenly gains so much more utility when it doesn't just have to spam U-turn.
Soul Dew needs to go. It's not a free Calm Mind, it's a 50% boost. At +0 they have an identical effect, but at +1 and above, the effect of the Soul Dew magnifies and after one Calm Mind both Lati twins are usually unstoppable, unless your Scarf Genesect is alive to U-turn them to death.
With a download boost, Thunderbold 2KOs Chandy. Just sayin x)
Chandelure is broken. I personally use a Calm Mind/Acid Armour set. While it may not pack immunity to status and thus the ability to set up on Chansey/Blissey, if it gets the chance to set up, which is more likely than one might think, it will easily 6-0/5-0/however badly I did the opponent. It sets up on Genesect, as well as anything packing a Choiced Bug/Fighting/Normal/Ice/etc. attack (U-Turn obviously notwithstanding). If that isn't broken, I don't know what is.
Revolve =/= only ones used
Basically, the metagame is about Lati@s, Keldeo, Chandelure, and what can kill them.
How Sand still works baffles me since Keldeo pretty much rapes it by itself.
So I'm going to remove Soul Dew from the tier when I get an opportunity to, but I'm still on the fence of whether or not to remove Chandelure. I might just do it anyway. Those seem to be the biggest issues, however.
In other news is there anything that should be unbanned?
In other news is there anything that should be unbanned?
You know what the best way to deal with Keldeo in the game is? Latias. Those things are on every sand team atm
I think we should let Excadrill remain unbanned. Dreamworld has the pokemon to keep it neutered. Even Hyper Offense is playable with Techniloom. As well, with Chandelure banned *hint hint nudge nudge* Choiced Fighting becomes viable again. Things such as CB Iron Fist Infernape can now act as Exca checks as well. Exca is very manageable in DW OU simply because the "power level" of the tier is higher and Exca sorta fades into the background. I don't feel like writing another essay, and I don't think you'd want to read another either. So I'll just leave it at that.
This wouldn't be true if Excadrill wasnt banned. Just sayin
More proof that this tier revolves around the pokemon I mentioned.
@ above poster:
We can't un-ban something just so it can keep something else from getting banned.
I personally believe Excadrill should be unbanned because its not broken in DW. (In fact, I don't believe it was broken in standard either, but thats a different story) The fact of the matter is, there are more options to bring down Excadrill in DW, so teams wont resort to the same old Gliscor, Skarmory, Bronzong. Two of those pokemon are consistently hovering around the 5-15 usage slots (Iron Fist Conk, Techniloom). Excadrill is therefore a lot more manageable in DW OU, this can kinda be seen by the lower Exca usage in DW OU than standard.
As well, DW Chandy is without a doubt broken (you can read my little essay earlier in the thread to see why) and a side effect of banning it would be the return of Choiced Fighting moves, making Excadrill even more underwhelming.
Keldeo IMO is not broken, just a very good pokemon. Even without Sould Dew, Latias is a fantastic check to it, resisting both its STABs and laughing at HP Ghost and HP Ice due to its ginormous Special Defense. The reason I posted that was because the poster asked how sand teams were still functioning, and the answer is Latias. If Excadrill were to return, we'd see more variety on sand teams as well, since sand players wont have to slap a Latias onto every one of their teams. There are other options to deal with Keldeo as well such as Celebi and Dragonite depending on Keldeo's coverage move, so its not like the only way to beat Keldeo is Slowbro *cough* don't unban Blaziken *cough*.
On Smogon, Wifi is more fun... simply because there are more people there to play it. Going into DW on smogon without a weather team is an absolute joke... as in, you will destroy nearly all weather teams.
Rain Check=Any Bulky/Priority t-waver, Any good defensive core, Any priority, Any weather-Changing move
Sand Check=Any priority, any Weather changing move, a decent defensive core
Sun Check=Lol anything that can resist fire+grass (tran), priority
Basically, things you should have anyways...
With even just a half-decent, non weather team, you can go in and get to the double digets in 20 battles
Even without the lat@s+chandy crap (didn't even realize that they weren't banned until now after trying out smogon rather than po)
PO DW is another story...
There is a much higher percentage of non-weather teams... as things like chandy, thundurus (not very big of a deal but...), drizzle+ss (i believe) are banned. This takes away the hype from rain, nerfs a very good sun sweeper, and takes another rain sweeper away. There are many more options now that don't involve weather. and the ones that do aren't -weather starter+set up abuser (x3)+other weather check+filler-, they are pokes that get a mild boost from weather (ie, azu+toxicroak+zapdos core in rain, etc)
Rain Check=Any Bulky/Priority t-waver, Any good defensive core, Any priority, Any weather-Changing move
Sand Check=Any priority, any Weather changing move, a decent defensive core
Sun Check=Lol anything that can resist fire+grass (tran), priority
Basically, things you should have anyways...
With even just a half-decent, non weather team, you can go in and get to the double digets in 20 battles
Even without the lat@s+chandy crap (didn't even realize that they weren't banned until now after trying out smogon rather than po)
PO DW is another story...
There is a much higher percentage of non-weather teams... as things like chandy, thundurus (not very big of a deal but...), drizzle+ss (i believe) are banned. This takes away the hype from rain, nerfs a very good sun sweeper, and takes another rain sweeper away. There are many more options now that don't involve weather. and the ones that do aren't -weather starter+set up abuser (x3)+other weather check+filler-, they are pokes that get a mild boost from weather (ie, azu+toxicroak+zapdos core in rain, etc)
I personally think Thundurus deserves some play-time in DW OU, along with Excadrill. There's Scarf Ditto, Volt Absorb Raikou, and to a lesser extent Lightning Rod Zapdos to check Thundurus. I also believe it pales in comparison to Keldeo in terms of abusing Rain / sweeping teams, particularly because Keldeo has Mystery Sword rather than Thundurus's Focus Blast to blast through special walls.
I agree with New World Order that the higher overall power level makes "borderline-uber" mons manageable in this tier. It wouldn't hurt to play-test for approx. 2 months and then decide on their fate (determined by some informed discussion).
I agree with New World Order that the higher overall power level makes "borderline-uber" mons manageable in this tier. It wouldn't hurt to play-test for approx. 2 months and then decide on their fate (determined by some informed discussion).
the problem with a belief like that is the fact that DW as a metagame is on a sand timer and it's becoming more and more obsolete with each wave of DW Pokemon that Nintendo officially release. 2 months is a long time when you're talking about a metagame that could have no reason to exist in a years time. I think this is the reason that Gen Empoleon is taking a much more direct approach with his governing of the metagame.
Actually, the opposite is true. A testing period would be awesome because between DW and standard OU, it will be the DW tier that will survive! OU is vanishing, transforming itself with each wave of DW mons into the Dream World tier. Making decisions based on testing and discussion is even more important for us than for standard OU!
While I know that usage stats have no influence on whether something is broken or not, can someone please explain why Chandelure, which used to be #1 on the DW OU usage stats, has fallen to #12? I never really found Chandelure to be that broken before, and when he has that much of a fall from grace in the usage stats on top of that, it's hard to be convinced about his brokenness.
Go to the thread Chandelure and DW Tier to see the arguments for and against banning Chandelure, as well as post your own.
Well the fact that Chandelure has dropped in effectiveness is actually a testament of its brokenness. You know why? Because everything on Earth carries a Shed Shell now specifically for Chandelure. Think Ferrothorn needs that Leftovers recovery for Healing? Nope, need to run Shed Shell. Think Skarmory needs that Leftovers recovery to tank Outrages all game long? Nope, need to run Shed Shell. Think your weather inducer needs Leftovers to ensure you win the weather war? Nope, need to run shed shell. Think Metagross needs Choice Band for power? Nope need to run shed shell. Hell, I've even seen a fucking Blissey run a Shed Shell. Honestly? Shed Shell Blissey? As well, many players make their moves specifically with Chandelure in mind. Did your opponent just get a DD up on Salamence? Think you need to Bullet Punch it with Scizor? Nope, need to U-Turn. Did your opponent just get a Rock Polish upon Terrakion? Think you need to Mach Punch it with Breloom? Nope, need to Stone Edge.
The only reason Chandelure has dipped so much in usage is because everybody overprepares for it. If the item Shed Shell didn't exist, I'm sure Chandelure usage would make Ubers Kyogre jealous. Chandelure is the most ridiculous pokemon in OU atm, the fact that it gives pretty much infinite team support makes it Ubers.
If it actually was broken, how would it be possible to "overprepare" for it? If Chandelure was actually broken, then it'd be a must-have on every team regardless of how much people adapted to deal with it.
Decisions made around the DW metagame are going to have no bearing on the tiering of Pokemon in the standard metagame, I'd wager. If Technician Breloom, for example, was released next week almost all experience of using him in DW will be moot because he has been competing in a metagame with Soul Dew Lati@s, Keldeo, Genosect, ST Chandelure, Lightning Rod Zapdos, yaddayaddayadda - you get the idea. It'd be unfair to ban him if you (hypothetically speaking) found him to be broken in your metagame so he'd need to be tested in the official metagame. It's unlikely that the metagame you play now will ever assimilate into the standard metagame because of the stunted rate at which Nintendo release new Pokemon.
