DT

Hipmonlee

Hipmonlee

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Yeah, so I have been thinking about DT and it's potential brokeness without BP..

I tried to make up sets that would be genuinely gamebreaking and I am having trouble.. The difficulty is to be able to do anything with only two attacks, rather than just double teaming up and then having to switch or be stalled.

So here is some crap I came up with:

Aerodactyl (with pressure)
@leftovers
DT
sub
whirlwind (or maybe toxic/protect/dragonrage/rockslide/dragonclaw/swagger/lol)
taunt
yeah, this thing is a real monster, if you can set it up with spikes and ss, you should be able to take down almost whole teams.. However there are issues with it. In DP pressure gives a warning when the pokemon switches in. So it wouldnt really be much of a surprise..(it could cause some surprises when people dont switch against a poke they dont believe is the CBer). This poke is gonna have problems when people just attack it. The pressure warning will give away your set, and until you get all of your DTs set up you still will be taking more damage than you will be healing with leftovers.. If they hit you for any reasonable amount of damage on the first DT then I am not sure it will be very likely it will succeed in anything. Also in the early stages, it would be difficult to taunt, allowing some annoying moves to sneak in when you are expecting attacks.

Sceptile
@petaya
double team
substitute
endeavour
energy ball
Yeah, this would be annoying if you werent prepared for it, but it is easily prepared for.. Since it cant do anything to anything resistant to grass without first losing a lot of health, it would be very easy to switch in a Dragonite and set up a substitute and what could you do, until it broke your sub. Skarm could come in and set up a crap load of spikes, Celebi could CM up and pass out.. This is a useable set - obviously better than the advance endeavourer, which was a huge pain - but definitely not gamebreaking.

Dragonite
@leftovers
dragon dance
DT
sub
outrage
This doesnt need DT.. Actually I think DT would just get in your way.. It would really only be useful in situations where you are just screwed otherwise and calling out Lesm46's name..

Hariyama
@leftovers
sub
FPunch
crunch/stone edge
DT
Yeah, not really that scary at all, but I am running out of ideas. Crunch defense drops might come in handy!

Metagross
@leftovers
DT
Sub
MM
EQ
Yeah, keep getting attack boosts while your opponent misses. Not all that scary IMO.

Suicune
@leftovers
Surf
DT
CM
Rest
Does it really need DT?

Yeah, I seriously cant come up with a non BPass DTer that is genuinely uncounterable. I think the best bet is pressure stalling, but without spikes that will do absolutely nothing, maybe people just need to be more careful about letting people set up spikes..

Have a nice day.
 
Important update:
This isnt a team, this is 6 movesets with DT.. It is just a coincidence that there are 6 of them

Have a nice day.
 
Needs more DT Registeel, DT Crescelia, DT Celebi (even without BPass)...

Of course, you could just do a "no DT legendaries" thing...
 
what are your other three moves there dude?

Be warned, I am totally preparing to rip whatever set you post to pieces..

[Edit] - this post is directed at Pyro.. But, I'll take on Misty too if he wants

Have a nice day.
 
i think Sub/Swords dance/Double team/Dragon claw gabu is kinda scary if you have sandstorm backing you up, but yea, in general it has better things to do.
I agree, though that what makes DT broken is the ability to BP away
 
Areseus @ Leftovers
Evs: 252 HP / 200 SDef / 56 Def
Bold Nature
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Recover
Dark Pulse

There... beat that... It can probably outstall 2-3 pokemon.
 
Pyr0 said:
Areseus @ Leftovers
Evs: 252 HP / 200 SDef / 56 Def
Bold Nature
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Recover
Dark Pulse

There... beat that... It can probably outstall 2-3 pokemon.
Click to expand...
Awesome, one toxic kills it since it doesn't have substitute.
 
May I mention DT Regigigas? Not because I want to be nitpicky, but because DT is THE best way to go for Regigigas.
 
DT/Sub/KnockOff/FP might be alright for Regigigas. Tons of PP to use on every move, lasts forever, subpunching with DT and base 160 attack is pretty ugly. KnockOff gets rid of lefties and has 40BP against ghosts that resist FP. =P
 
Yeah, I don't see what Double Team can do without Baton Pass here, besides pissing people off when they're not used to it.

Clefable @ Leftovers
~ Double Team
~ Flamethrower
~ Toxic
~ Softboiled

I was thinking among the lines of this, but people will just Rest or use Celebi, Blissey, Snorlax etc.
 
Maybe it's because DT isn't gamebreaking, just a good move!

If the only thing people are worried about is DT being Baton Passed, then fast Hazers should be used, as they can Haze Umbreon and others before they can do anything. :D
 
From the Emerald Battle Frontier with love:

Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 136 Def / 88 Speed / 44 SpD
DV: 401 HP / 330 Def / 228 Speed / 277 SpD (206 SpA)
Nature: Bold
- Dive
- Double Team
- Toxic
- Rest

Enough speed to beat like all Vaporeon and most Gyarados, I guess...has problems with EMPOLEON oh no

Also it is of note that as far as countering DT goes, 328 Speed Heart Swap Manaphy shouldn't be forgotten since it's a great BP team counter anyway, so things like DT Hariyama and Metagross and even the above Suicune would get "owned"
 
If the only thing people are worried about is DT being Baton Passed, then fast Hazers should be used, as they can Haze Umbreon and others before they can do anything.
Click to expand...

Hazebat is totally dumb and offenseless though and doesn't help you against every other stat upper not named Double Team Umbreon, not to mention Umbreon could also be very well carry Mean Look. Last time I checked Hazebat is the best "fast Hazer", so this is saying a lot.
 
Wow this seems like a very thinly veiled attempt at showing pokemon who wouldn't really use DT too well in order to try and make a point to not get DT banned. But it could just be me.

I don't think DT would be the worst addition to the metagame..I just think that the cons would outweigh the pros..Cus uh I don't want to have a crobat on my team lol..

Also although none of that is amazing without BP it's the simple fact that you could stall someone five extra turns each pokemon simply because of DT.

I think DT would be fair if it had 1-2 PP max since anymore just brings the game into a wild guessing game as to when you're gonna hit the opponent.
 
Shuckle w/Leftovers
(252 HP/rest in attack/sp def)

- Double Team
- Rest
- Defense Curl
- Rollout

Hey, it would still work.

OR

Shuckle w/Leftovers
(252 HP/rest in defenses)

- Double Team
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Rest

This set is good, but I'd honestly go for the first set more because this one lacks a way to get rid of subs.
 
Bologo said:
Shuckle w/Leftovers
(252 HP/rest in attack/sp def)

- Double Team
- Rest
- Defense Curl
- Rollout

Hey, it would still work.

OR

Shuckle w/Leftovers
(252 HP/rest in defenses)

- Double Team
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Rest

This set is good, but I'd honestly go for the first set more because this one lacks a way to get rid of subs.
Click to expand...

Shuckles in general tend to say: "Set up on me with your Substitute! Especially if you're a cool Steel type."
 
Mekkah said:
Hazebat is totally dumb and offenseless though and doesn't help you against every other stat upper not named Double Team Umbreon, not to mention Umbreon could also be very well carry Mean Look. Last time I checked Hazebat is the best "fast Hazer", so this is saying a lot.
Click to expand...

Fast = anything faster than Umbreon. Like Milotic, Dragonite, Gengar, Tentacruel, Drifblim, Politoed.

If Umbreon has Mean Look, what is the set?

Mean Look/DT/BP/Taunt? No healing then, it'll die quickly.
Mean Look/DT/BP/Wish? Can be stopped even if the other person only had a psuedo-hazer.

Lone Star said:
Wow this seems like a very thinly veiled attempt at showing pokemon who wouldn't really use DT too well in order to try and make a point to not get DT banned. But it could just be me.

I don't think DT would be the worst addition to the metagame..I just think that the cons would outweigh the pros..Cus uh I don't want to have a crobat on my team lol..

Also although none of that is amazing without BP it's the simple fact that you could stall someone five extra turns each pokemon simply because of DT.

I think DT would be fair if it had 1-2 PP max since anymore just brings the game into a wild guessing game as to when you're gonna hit the opponent.
Click to expand...

Ok, so the battle has 5 extra turns. Is that reason enough to ban a move? Sleep Talk anything could potentially add a large amount of turns to the game, but that shouldn't be banned. Double Team alone doesn't turn the game into a "wild guessing game", not when moves with added effects and high CH chances are already there.
 
Politoed is a pretty subpar Pokemon. Dragonite and Gengar are as shitty as Hazers as Crobat as it doesn't help them against anything but Double Team Umbreon. Tentacruel can Haze Suicune in addition...Drifblim has much better things to do.

If you expect Double Team and Umbreon is just a Mean Look passer Crobat is buttfucked.

Double Team/Baton Pass is just goddamn annoying.
 
However, when something is as annoying as Double Team and turns the game COMPLETELY onto luck (completely is the operative word here), it just becomes fucking boring and skilless. Double Team is like Ubers; they require very little skill to use effectively unless used against a team with the same thing, and DT in particular just ends up with a stupid stallwar if both players use it.
 
I don't think it turns the game COMPLETELY into luck, it's just the normal amount that Pokemon is supposed to have. The same thing as if you relied on Hypnosis or Sleep Powder hitting, or the enemy being fully paralyzed. The way I see it, sacrificing X amount of turns doing nothing to your opponent in order to lower their chance of hitting you is a fair trade, as during those turns the opponent can do anything they want to try and stop you.
 
Actually I said each pokemon..Because honestly if DT is unbanned expect 4-6 pokemon on the team to have the move. I agree that luck is involved with pokemon..But Dt just makes it ABOUT luck which shouldn't happen and yes the one move can do that. You said it yourself about hypnosis and being fully paralyzed..If things exist that can make misses and turn something one way into a completely different game why try to unbalance it more by adding that?

The metagame would barely benefit if at all.
 
Lets stop deraling the thread, and while we're at it ban Amnesia slowbro from RBY (Because after 3 turns of set up he relies on luck to beat!)
 
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