DT

[Matt]

You wouldn't be "adding" anything, Double Team was in the game originally along with those other moves. GameFreak has been purposely creating everything else in the game around the idea that the moves they've made will actually be used. Battle Tower shows they recognize that the super legendaries have their own tier, but there's no mode where evasion is banned. Saying the metagame would barely benefit is like banning Tyranitar then turning around and saying, "But what would allowing Tyranitar ADD?" No one's trying to unbalance anything, since this isn't a move someone is inventing and trying to force into the game.

 

[Phuquoph]

Nothing else in the game truly compares to DT. You can't use the argument that "X is allowed so DT should be". Comparing it to a specific Pokemon, strategy or move that is currently allowed only weakens the case for it's inclusion, in my opinion.

It either has to be allowed in on it's own merits or banned for lack thereof.

Personally, I think the best argument for it to be unbanned I've seen so far is "it's in the game already". No one can actually argue with that. What I would say is that Pokemon actually gives us the luxury to ban certain things, if we see fit. I see the banning of DT more as "customization".

 

[Lone Star]

Valid point but Tyra doesn't harm the metagame..DT does.

and yes you're right that gamefreak invented it, but just as you said they invented the legendaries and they're still banned. Gamefreak also never established nu uu and ou but no one argues that Landshark and mightyena are equals. It'd take luck for Mightyena to beat it one on one, just like it'd take luck to beat anyone competent who's using DT.

When I make a team I don't even have standards in mind..but I can beat them when I play, DT would be completely overpowered and teams would have to be designed solely to beat it which does nothing but harm.

I'm not saying I'm completely opposed to DT..I just think that if it's allowed it shouldn't be just let loose with no restrictions. I don't care if I play a team and they have -A- pokemon with DT..But I wouldn't want to face an entire DT team, and since every pogey and their mother learns it..That'd be very possible.

 

[PM]

Legendaries aren't banned you guys keep talking in circles just shut up.

 

[Peterko]

I´m not a big friend of double team either, but there isn´t just haze to stop double team you know...gamefreak gave us (maybe you never heard of them) foresight, odor sleuth and sweet scent, you can say WTF but they were invented for a purpose...

...we can´t forget rain+thunder and hail+blizzard either
...or attacks that never miss - pulse bomb (lucario, togekiss), shock wave (90BP on scheme technician ambipom), aerial ace, shadow punch, magical leaf, swift (same as shock wave), magnet bomb...
...or attacks like snatch (steal their double team), taunt or torment...lock on+1hko move, perish song (they won´t dare to BP)

things that can learn foresight:
venomoth, machamp, hitmonlee, furret, noctowl, swampert, sableye, blastoise, pidgeot, golduck, primeape, farfetch´d, kangaskhan, lapras, aerodactyl, typhlosion, togekiss, girafarig, weavile, masquerain, hariyama, medicham, banette, staraptor, lopunny, lucario, yanmega, duscnoir

things that can learn odor sleuth:
snorlax, arcanine, girafarig, mamoswine, houndoom, donphan, mightyena, linoone, manectric, grumpig, ampharos, persian, bibarel, floatzel

things that can learn sweet scent:
venusaur, vileplume, victreebel, meganium, bellossom, ursaring, masquerain, mawile, illumise, tropius, roserade, combee, vespiquen, carnivine, shaymin, parasect, sunflora, shuckle, ludicolo, cherrim

 

[X-Act]

Well, I'm sure Hipno didn't post this for us to discuss DT, as it was already discussed in quite some detail in other threads, one of which is this recent one.

I'll just reiterate that in a metagame that's not yet started, it's cool to test things out before actually banning them.

 

[Lone Star]

Yes legendaries are banned, when it to comes to the battle tower and I think japanese tournaments.

80% of those sweet scent pogeys are worthless, and almost all of them are flying weak, if a flyer DTs they'll simply stop DT'ing and hit them with a flying attack

The other options are actually options but then again if you're playing a team of DT having one pokemon with those moves would be pointless as once the sleuthing is caught on they can just attack. and still ALOt of those pogeys are UU, slapping a bunch of UU to fight a bunch of OUs would be suicide. Though I like your arguement much better since you gave many options..I just don't think they're practical.

The never miss moves can be useful but most lack any kind of power, and if you're facing someone resistant + weak dmg, it's not a counter.

EDIT: I'm all for testing it though :) since if I'm wrong I'm not afraid to admit it and I do think everything atleast deserves a fair chance.

 

[Matt]

So what if some of those Pokemon are UU? Maybe they won't be UU because they learn Odor Sleuth/Foresight. Since neither of those moves can miss, if Double Team really will be used as much as people seem to think, it'll be perfectly worth it to use those moves.

There are THREE kinds of Spikes now, and still a very small amount of Pokemon that learn Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is utterly useless if the opponent doesn't use Spikes, but people don't seem to complain about being forced to use it. Why isn't the same logic used with Foresight/Odor Sleuth?

Also, it seemed in that topic that people didn't really have a problem with Double Team itself, but rather Baton Passing Double Team. I've noticed that, recently, a lot of people have been complaining about Baton Pass in general, so maybe the issue here isn't DT, but BP + DT? I don't think Baton Pass should be banned either, but I'm just wondering if people would have nearly as much of a problem with DT if it wasn't used with BP. Although, since there are about three pokemon that use DT/BP well (Umbreon/Zapdos/Celebi), I don't see why people are so scared about it. Umbreon's killed by any Choice Banded fighting/bug type that comes in, Celebi can't trap or Taunt so it's easily Hazed/Roared, Zapdos needs DT/BP/Feather Rest/TBolt to have healing, and so can be completely walled by a ground type. With HP X instead of Feather Rest, it can't heal and so can be worn down without too much trouble.